paddy power/betfair merger?

that's wrong Jimeen you can be a big winner here and not pay PC , if you are a position taker and not a trader .

or a fast pic player ,laying fallers etc

I am a recreational punter jimeen but I am up by 5 figures overall. It's certainly not a living but I don't need to make a living from gambling. I have a hobby that has paid for several holidays. That'll do me.

You cannot be a big winner here and not pay PC, and that is a certainty.

whats a big winner in your eyes ? I think you are wrong

Thats fair enough salmon, you may be a winner but not a huge one as you say, so you dont qualify for the PC.
Recreational punters will have no problems whatsoever with this takeover.

A big winner is somebody who could get even a modest living out of it, and that isnt allowed.

jimeeen if you are a position taker , a gambler with high turnover you can win and not pay PC .

D'oh me no understand please explain what that means and how it works whatdifference ??

jimeen 26 Aug 15 11:26   Recreational punters will have no problems whatsoever with this takeover.




That is nonsense as many punters like to play in place only markets and also laying etc. The punter has far less choice into what markets he can play with bookmakers.

You don't pay PC if you pay more than 20% of your winnings in charges. I am nowhere near paying PC as I have paid 36% or so in charges. In theory if I upped my stakes by 10x I could make a living and still not pay PC.

throwthetelly .... I need someone more eloquent than me to explain properly, but I presume most people are greening up trading all the time so you are very rarely losing , so eventually you hit your threshold and then pay PC , if you are a fast pic player who very rarely has a losing day you will pay PC , but if you are a position taker/gambler then you will have many losses against your wins , so you can win plenty but you will lose plenty also , so can be in profit by a big amount and not pay PC , but will pay a lump of commission relative to your overall profit , that's my best effort at explaining

"Both companies said the deal is being finalised with a view to maximising benefits to shareholders and other stakeholders "

How about stop focusing on the City and get back to looking after the customers, but they don't care about customer concerns, just find a way to make more money and screw 'em.

Question now, Where is betfair heading in 2016 and beyond ?

They have a legal duty to their shareholders not their customers tbf.

Come back Mr Black - all is forgiven. Need someone to develop a horse racing p to p exchange that works, without crashes and offering a superlative alternative to the shadow of the site that used to be Betfair.

The original founders lost interest when they realised they weren't going to become mega-rich because they couldn't expand geographically ( especially the US ). So they settled for being very rich and sold up.

basically,the principal idea of an exchange was the ability of a gambler to do what prior to the advent of the exchanges he wasn't able to do..i.e. be a player and if need be a layer..get in & out of markets,sometimes multiple times(5 day cricket test,golf tournaments) if he so chose..not to have to wait until the expiration of a contingency like a 'normal' bet.So,to compete somewhat some bookies started to introduce 'cash outs'.
now the 'enemy' takes over..is he really going to allow the continuance of that which is cutting his own throat?
what are the legal issues if they just decided to do away with exchange betting?Can they do this?Or will they just do it insidiously by raising commission to a level where it becomes a non sequitur 4 the punter?
would everyone just down tools and then relocate u know where or does my cynical ole head tell me that there will be some collusion behind the scenes such that the 'owners' of the other place ensure that what could happen here will equally play out there..sayonara exchange betting..back to the good ole days for the bookie chappies..guess time alone will tell.

Jimeen: Lots of big winning markets and lots of slightly less big losing markets = big overall profit and no PC.

Aug 26, 2015 -- 11:38AM, whatdifference wrote:

throwthetelly .... I need someone more eloquent than me to explain properly, but I presume most people are greening up trading all the time so you are very rarely losing , so eventually you hit your threshold and then pay PC , if you are a fast pic player who very rarely has a losing day you will pay PC , but if you are a position taker/gambler then you will have many losses against your wins , so you can win plenty but you will lose plenty also , so can be in profit by a big amount and not pay PC , but will pay a lump of commission relative to your overall profit , that's my best effort at explaining

Thanks for taking time to explain i've a better understanding of it now.

sparrow 26 Aug 15 10:51 

Why would they promote a brand with a far less profit margin in direct competition with their other brands.
-----------
G1_Jockey_4 26 Aug 15 10:51 

is the exchange as profitable as their sportsbook?
--------------

Didn't the  latest Betfair ACCOUNTS show that over 60% of it revenues came from the EXCHANGE.

That 60+% being guaranteed RISK FREE COMMISSION - a continual 'cannot lose' CASH FLOW that any company would give their right arm for.

What company, merged or not, is going to 'turn their nose up' at that nirvana scenario?

In-play terminals in the shops using fast pics ?

Aug 26, 2015 -- 1:23PM, howard wrote:

In-play terminals in the shops using fast pics ?

There is more chance of me waking up tomorrow with a full head of hair

Screaming, so you have to lose the bulk of what you win to avoid paying premium charge, that sounds very clever.

Jimeen 11.20 " if you were winning anything substantial you would qualify for PC", i know of two accounts one for £7k and another £10k(both sterling),do you think that is a lot over the course of a few years? It isn't and anyone caught with that wouldn't be shedding tears today. They have some chance(might be a bit slim alright) with PP involved that the unfairness of the charge will be rectified,they had none under the current set up.

Aug 26, 2015 -- 1:40PM, jimeen wrote:

Screaming, so you have to lose the bulk of what you win to avoid paying premium charge, that sounds very clever.

no you just need to ensure that at least 20% of your gross winnings are paid in commission.  If you are betting odds against and have a 5% roi (considered good in sports betting) you won't pay premium charge at the 20% level.  (the 40% charge a different story)

Pa, i dont actually to be honest. Say 10k over 2 or 3 years, thats not even a 100 a week.
No disrespect but a sparrow couldnt survive on that.

Let's face the fact guys

2001-2008 Incredible innovative business idea, huge growth, excellent customer satisfaction levels and highly profitable risk free business model.
2008 Premium Charges introduced and Betfair Exchange wobbled with a hard punch.
2011 Premium Charges increased to 40%-60% and Betfair Exchange now in a coma.
2013 Betfair Sportsbook launched and Family now deciding the best drugs to kill off the Betfair Exchange.
2015 Betfair/Puddy Flower merge and life support switched off.

For me the Fair part of Betfair left in 2008 and the soul left with it.

Betfair RIP 2001-2008

My point Dave is that you shouldnt have this rubbish charge hanging over you at all. You shouldnt have to watch what commission you are paying, you shouldnt be wondering am I in line to pay it this week or the next either. Likewise you shouldnt have to worry whether its 20% or 40%.
And you most certainly shouldnt have to lose bets or even increase your amount of bets to avoid paying the winners tax, and that is actually what it is, no more nor no less. It isnt a premium charge, its a winners tax.

sparrow sayed he could...

Sayed I could what, Delta?

....feed the boids....

£3 a day Jimeen in the case of the £7K, no bots either.

What is a boid please, ton of sobs?

14:03 ..

I honestly looked at the date of the opening post expecting to see april 1st

I thought it was an old thread brought to the top

No need to delta. Us baby boomers and all that............

My point exactly Pa, thats it in a nutshell. Miniscule winning accounts, basically recreational ones will be tolerated but even moderate winners will be sent packing in no time.

sparrow sayed he could...

joker

pablo-fanque knows everything.  Or thinks he does.

Look, jimeen. Here's the last 3 months. Not brilliant, but it's a profit and not a chance I will ever pay PC or feel i "hanging over my head", as you put it.

Period:         
Download to Spreadsheet     
?

    (relates to event settlement date)

   

(yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm)    to


(yyyy-mm-dd hh:mm)    


Cricket: £1,464.79 | Horse Racing: £1,513.02 | Soccer: -£533.29  Total P&L:  £2,444.52

Cricket    Showing 1 - 20 of 40 markets
Market    Start time    Settled date    Profit/loss (£)
Cricket / Sri Lanka v India (2nd Test) : Match Odds    20-Aug-15 05:30    24-Aug-15 08:05    121.01
Cricket / Leicestershire v Somerset : Match Odds    18-Aug-15 10:30    18-Aug-15 15:29    -372.69
Cricket / England U19 v Australia U19 (3rd ODI) : Match Odds    17-Aug-15 14:00    17-Aug-15 20:33    -4.44
Cricket / Somerset v Surrey : Match Odds    17-Aug-15 10:30    17-Aug-15 17:48    173.79
Cricket / England Women v Australia Women (Only Test) : Match Odds    11-Aug-15 11:00    14-Aug-15 17:06    80.73
Cricket / Warwickshire v Essex : Match Odds    13-Aug-15 18:30    13-Aug-15 21:33    16.69
Cricket / England v Australia (4th Test) : Match Odds    06-Aug-15 11:00    08-Aug-15 11:40    869.72
Cricket / England v Australia (3rd Test) : Match Odds    29-Jul-15 11:00    31-Jul-15 15:52    583.42
Cricket / Glamorgan v Kent : Match Odds    28-Jul-15 14:00    28-Jul-15 21:24    -416.64
Cricket / Natwest T20 Blast 2015 : Winner    29-Aug-15 18:45    24-Jul-15 21:59    -2.00
Cricket / Hampshire v Somerset : Match Odds    23-Jul-15 18:30    23-Jul-15 21:09    -63.27
Cricket / Sri Lanka v Pakistan (4th ODI) : Match Odds    22-Jul-15 10:00    22-Jul-15 17:26    564.86
Cricket / England Women v Australia Women (1st ODI) : Match Odds    21-Jul-15 10:30    21-Jul-15 17:26    54.55
Cricket / Trinidad and Tobago v Barbados : Match Odds    17-Jul-15 01:00    17-Jul-15 04:34    -1,149.48
Cricket / Scotland v Afghanistan : Match Odds    12-Jul-15 14:15    12-Jul-15 17:26    -44.02
Cricket / England v Australia (1st Test) : Match Odds    08-Jul-15 11:00    11-Jul-15 17:07    148.13
Cricket / St Kitts v Guyana : Match Odds    08-Jul-15 23:00    09-Jul-15 03:30    -970.95
Cricket / Lancashire v Yorkshire : Match Odds    03-Jul-15 18:30    03-Jul-15 21:15    -14.32
Cricket / Somerset v Gloucestershire : Match Odds    03-Jul-15 17:30    03-Jul-15 20:37    -111.00
Cricket / Surrey v Gloucestershire : Match Odds    01-Jul-15 18:30    01-Jul-15 21:23    5.86

That's the key screaming , winners and losers in your P/L , as I said Jimeen you can win plenty of money on here and never pay PC , BUT be prepared to have plenty of red on your screen and get used to paying lots of commission and if it goes wrong you do your absolutes , that's why its called gambling.
don't get me wrong I get your point and obviously people who are having to suffer PC every month have every right to be fcked off

jimeen


         jimeen   






  26 Aug 15 14:03 
Joined:   26 May 04      | Topic/replies: 988  | Blogger: jimeen's blog   



Pa, i dont actually to be honest. Say 10k over 2 or 3 years, thats not even a 100 a week.
No disrespect but a sparrow couldnt survive on that.

sparrow, I was laughing at deltas wit regarding jimeens comment above, not taking the p!ss out of you .

Apologies pablo-fanque for jumping the gun.

New definition of 'oxymoron': Paddypowerbetfair'

to which delta replied

sparrow sayed he could...

ok ?

no worries sparrow

Some lengthy and very interesting contributions on this thread. It would be nice if those involved in this proposed merger read some of them. I'll make mine brief, but hopefully to the point - If they remove the exchange I'm sorry to say that I'll be removing my custom...

Time for a New exchange me feels

same here

Why would the exchange be removed if it continues to make more money than it costs to run?

wish i hadnt posted it now ..

So I should think so, Delta.   

I think some people have an emotional attachment to Betfair because they were seen as the good guys of the betting industry rather than the traditional bookmaker being the enemy.

The reality is you can make more money from being a traditional bookie than an exchange so the word betrayal is hardly appropriate.  Its just business.

Betfair becoming a traditional bookie was a bit like the Labour party's transformation into New Labour.  Starting a new political party or bookie from scratch is difficult its a lot easier to take over an existing one from within and turn it in a new direction.

I had one bet with a bookmaker in the last 5 years and that was because the market I was in [rugby] stopped working on betfair ........... I made a loss of about £120 on betfair - one I could do nothing about and for which I wasn't compensated by betfair.

Of course I rang and complained but the young person on the help desk took a while to understand I was using the exchange and then failed to understand that my loss was caused by betfair failure.

Wesdag ,

They may think if they close it exchange punters will stay/change to sportsbook and they will make the extra  money without spending anything. But they would be wrong imo

Wesdag ,

They may think if they close it exchange punters will stay/change to sportsbook and they will make the extra  money without spending anything. But they would be wrong imo

All here on this thread, wesdag.

Close the exchange and make more money by accommodating losers on the sportsbook.

That's the sole reason for this takeover. In the mind of P Power and the Betfair CEO, losing punters on the exchange are losing too much to the winners and too little in commission. P Power and the Betfair CEO want the lot.

Winners can go f@@@ themselves.

I seriously doubt the exchange will be closed so long as revenue exceeds cost - simple business logic.

Betfair has shown there is a demand for an exchange and that it is profitable so if it were to close down it wouldn't be too long before another one started up.

Well how is bet £200 get it doubled ( 3 65 )  simple money making business logic ?

Mass migration to purple .No brainer .Hence it WILL NOT CLOSE.
Why would yo wish to line the pockets of Badblokes/Coruls

I cannot believe for 1 minute that the exchange will be closed; would Betfair's share price really have rocketed today if that was the case? More likely that Power will eventually take over the Betfair sportsbook; a great deal for them as they would then have access to who is backing/laying what on the Betfair exchange. The exchanges are here for good imo unless legislation outlaws them which is unlikely.

if it were to close down it wouldn't be too long before another one started up

+1

or everyone just moves to purple

exactly, exchange technology exists and exchanges work. There would be others in the extremely unlikely event of this one ending.

You don't have to physically close the exchange. All Power and Laddies have to do is on the same day raise commission on here and the Daq to 10% and/or abolish discounts and the exchanges will die of their own accord. And both firms will then have all those losing punters to milk far more profitably via their sportsbooks and casinos.

So what's stopping another exchange from starting up if that domesday scenario were to occur?

You don't have to physically close the exchange. All Power and Laddies have to do is on the same day raise commission on here and the Daq to 10% and/or abolish discounts and the exchanges will die of their own accord. And both firms will then have all those losing punters to milk far more profitably via their sportsbooks and casinos.

and hope no one else starts an exchange ?

The exchange will NEVER close ! End of ! Financial suicide.

The exchange is the ultimate hedging tool for a bookmaker (be that BF or PP) - it won't be going anywhere any time soon.

Build a 110% book on Sportsbook - win once.
Offload unwanted liabilities to exchange - win twice (comm. + PC)

Plenty of sportsbook money filters through to the exchange once Betfair has cleaned it. Turning off the exchange would make no sense for any party.

Would take months at the very least for any new exchange to gain enough punters, turnover and credibility to attract the losers Power will be accommodating on the back of this takeover.

In fact, with Power having the losers on their book, how would any new exchange ever get going? It's the losers who provide the wrong prices and value and hence attract the liquidity.

What is the point of P Power taking over Betfair, unless it's to make more money out of the losers on here? And how can they do that unless they're either removed from the exchange or charged more commission to the point the exchange model collapses?

Power's and Betfair's shares rocketed on news of this deal, plenty more than any efficiency drive alone would warrant imo. To my mind the market is assuming the current punters are going to be a lot worse off somehow through this deal.

the only time i use sportsbook is when they happen to have better prices than anyone(and they are getting too cute so that's a rarity)or when i want to do a dbl OR multiple and their prices are competitive to within a few fractions when i've got money here and can't be ar*ed to deposit money elsewhere to get a smidgeon better price
other than that i exclusively use the exchange
so what i am basicallty saying is those on betfair to use the exchange wouldn't necessarily switch back to betting as it used to be unless there was absolutely no viable alternative
in fact it might make ppl bet less often and more profitably

Wouldn't dispute that, johnnythebull. But I can still see P Power doing a lot of damage and causing a lot of grief while they and their Betfair CEO flail around trying to snare and squeeze the people they consider addicts (i.e. their customers).

if daq did that then it would just open up the market for a new player.....its about time the BHB opened their own one.

that way it keep people interested in the game IN THE GAME.

the current system is more likely to drive them away....lets see how the horseracingforum works on sept 4th.
may get  few pointers....

it should be interesting,paddy will not allow bots(unless they are their own).paddy is also a bookmaker and will have difficulty to be able to charge premier charges,so there may be value for some customers.with a price regulator perhaps the idea is to regulate betfair prices,and use their own bots to skim a small amount on every bet,meaning a level playing field for all,just like betfair when they started up.paddy also lay in running so you never know,it may end up that the punter that wins the most will also make the most commission for the paddy bots,so that would stop them red carding the winners.

Headline."Paddy Power/Betfair merger.Voices of doom out in force on Betfair forum".

Paddy will not allow bots


Not sure about that or how you came to that conclusion

.paddy is also a bookmaker and will have difficulty to be able to charge premier charges

That is an interesting point though

why would being a bookie make it difficult to charge PC? Surely Betfair currently is also a bookie?

Any botting on the paddy site always reflects the same change at the racecourse,try setting up your own bot on the paddy site and see what happens,your account will be frozen straight away and you have contact head office to get it open again.

Headline."Paddy Power/Betfair merger.Voices of doom out in force on Betfair forum".

What do you expect? Voices of optimism?

This is P Power we're talking about here: the most restrictive, cynical and unsporting brand on even the UK High Street.

(And it ain't a 50/50 merger; it's a 52/48 takeover engineered by a Betfair CEO whose previous employer was none other than P Power itself.)

in law betfair match punters bets.(that's what they pride their business on).
in normal law it is fraud to attempt to charge twice for the same thing.
betfair charge premier commission on matched bets.
pp do not charge commission on exchange because they are bookmakers,paddy gets profit if punters lose.
betfair(we believe only exist on commission on matched bets)

so the betfair sportsbook is about to become even more restrictive.

think the BHB need to pull racing from operator who restrict and set up their own exchange.
certainly something im gonna be pushing for.

currently i subscribe to racing uk but whats the point if i feel i wont be accommodated for a bet?

The BHB will lose revenue long term if they allow their product to be managed by others in this way.

(And it ain't a 50/50 merger; it's a 52/48 takeover engineered by a Betfair CEO whose previous employer was none other than P Power itself.)

The market cap of PP is 4bn the market cap of Betfair is 2.9bn.  Why would you think for a minute that it would be 50/50?

Because that's the thread title. And the narrative being spun by Betfair.

it is not difficult to get a few grand on a horse in Ireland.
if you walked into a paddy power shop in Dublin and put 500 on a horse they would talk about the weather when serving you,
but alas in England it is a different story I believe,but most bets struck in Ireland will find there way to the course and the paddy power head office.at the race course paddy(david)would not blink to a hundred grand on any favourite.they are bid layers and lay most owners and trainers all across the british isles and rep.of Ireland.

Go and have a lie down brassneck please, and make it a long one.

I guess mincer you are not irish,and never heard of mister mac manus.

no fobts in Ireland may have something to do with them taking bets

Brassneck please please stop talking bolloxx, there are people here who may well believe you.
None of what you posted had the slightest bit of factual contact.

as you say breakneck "england is a diff story" we can only go on our own personal experiences. Sounds like you've got it good over there, i'm guessing thats because you havent got them blasted machines, so in Ireland they need to lay horses as they don't have easy daily no risk guaranteed profit like bookmakers have here?

Can't see bots being stopped. There would be no exchange over night

Thought the non pc was a good point as can't see how a bookmaker would get away with it. Betfair was/is an exchange

mincer,come over to a race meeting in Ireland,they power family will show you the bets they strike,better still just watch rte television and they will tell you the bets they strike,everytime a favourite goes down paddy is 5 million richer with all shops,irish people are crazy punters.even the government td's punt.

Brassneck , i am Irish and you are not a well puppy. A lie down will be of no benefit to you i'm afraid.

I doubt it very seriously that you are irish if you think that a ordinary guy in the street can not get a few hundred on a horse,even the corner shop independent bookies take them bets,but the bets will travel on a phone journey back to paddy head office each day.

Betfair are a tech company who allegedly also offer a bookmaking service apart from the exchange.

There is no bookmaking involved with the exchange

Brassneck, stop making a show of yerself.
You said that powers were laying monkey bets and asking about the weather, they are in their hole.
And as for David laying 100k bets on every shortish priced fav, stop now will ya.
Actually im off my rocker even talking to you. Good luck.

like, they are taking the biggest share in the betfair merger,is that not proof to you that they are one of the largest market betting firms

Aug 26, 2015 -- 5:06PM, screaming from beneaththewaves wrote:

Because that's the thread title. And the narrative being spun by Betfair.

Its a merger, they have to allocate shares in the new company.  As betfair's total shares are worth less than pp's total shares it can't possibly be 50/50 in the new company.  The market thinks that betfair have got the better part of the deal as announced.

betfair most certainly will get the better deal,as the coporation tax for betfair drops to 12.5 gross,and they will more that likely end up paying only 3% ,they will make millions of the irish tax payer when the set their new  company up in Ireland,where as paddy will have to collect long term.if it a fantastic move for betfair and they will still hold 48% of paddypower betfair.