Who is better: Dettori or Buick ?

Frankie all day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQZTlQcb00w

Neither..but noting the point of your question, Frankie for sure over Buick

In his pomp Dettori was up there with the best of them.

What's the main criterion for a good jockey?

this is about tomorrow SB

I would take Dettori over Buick IS any day, even now.

Dettori for me.

Unless i was backing it e/w.

The title gave the question, now answer ydc ??

It's far more about the horses and when Dettori first came back from his ban he couldn't buy a winner and Buick could do little wrong on the Gosden runners. Had Dettori not then been offered his current job, he could well have been struggling for winners when those he had a past associations with had moved on to new jockeys.

Both are good enough if the horse is and bar an error of judgement or bad luck in running then neither of their mounts should get beaten because the jockey wasn't up to it, and if I owned a horse I'd have no problems putting either up but I suppose you could say Frankie has that bit more big race experience, yet Buick isn't lacking enough of it for it to be an issue.

Do either of them have that great a record at Epsom?

13–70  19%  +22.25 
Jamie Spencer  10–75  13%  -7.50 
Jim Crowley  8–48  17%  -0.38 
William Buick  7–58  12%  -29.00 
Adam Kirby  7–35  20%  +21.00 
Luke Morris  6–21  29%  +55.75 
Jimmy Fortune  5–56  9%  -30.13 
George Baker  5–42  12%  -11.08 
Pat Dobbs  5–38  13%  -19.95 
Richard Kingscote  4–24  17%  +18.00 
Joseph O´Brien  4–11  36%  -3.98 
Paul Hanagan  3–43  7%  -28.00 
Frankie Dettori  3–24  13%  -17.08 
Andrea Atzeni  2–29  7%  -17.75 
Harry Bentley

Definitely dettori,and James Doyle over Buick every time !

Frankie by a long way; a great natural talent and horseman. Buick's a hack in comparison.

frankie for me

Buick for me, Frankie not the force he was -

This can be tested - Golden Horn beating Jack Hobbs - I think Jack Hobbs will be in front of Golden Horn tomorrow.

Dettori 3 years ago i would had said Buick, Buick 3 years ago looked destined for the top but has not improved as much as he should had with experience, Dettori this season is like a new man.

Cant see a single reason why JH will finish in front of GH IDB

It looks as if Buick is now given the pick of two Gosden stable fancies, with Dettori tossed a bone.
If this is true then comparison of riding ability is not on a level playing field.

At his best Dettori, but these days he seems to have little spells of confidence which may only last a day a two. They are pretty similar in that they are both pretty much bridle merchants and not really punter friendly. Dettori increasingly has a degree of vulnerability whereas Buick seems to maintain that somewhat cocky air whatever his failings.

They all make missed aches imo.

it is a difficult question to answer as both jockeys work out of different jockey groups.you know what I mean.=the backup to stop other horses from winning,Frankie for me because he is in the most experienced group,and he is better  at getting out of a pocket when surrounded by the other group.

Have most jockeys in front of Dettori. He is as weak as water in a finish, and getting beat on GM Hopkins was unforgiveable,

The answer you are looking for is jack Hobbs wins.

Frankie by a mile,  remember the mag 7  not many do that   top rider for year the other guy is ok  but he would be very happy if he had Frankie bank balance in the next 15 years ..

What's the main criterion for a good jockey?

ima_mazed66 recognises that it is the horse that is by far the most important factor than the monkey on it's back, and I totally agree.

Yet most others have made their choice without seeming to now why.
Perhaps they simply like one more than the other, which has nothing to do with the jockey's ability.

Well done Frankie

dettori is miles better than buick

Dettori by a country mile....Buick will always win races, but he isn't a great jockey. It wouldn't surprise me if I read that Buick suffered from ADHD as his concentration, attention span even during the couple of minutes of a race seems highly suspect to me. Its as if he completely switches off mentally while he is riding sometimes, great horseman, not a great jockey.

Frankie by a mile if the horse is good enough    Dettori  wont let you down

years ago  1966,, the great Lester  said to an owner   that's me ,  if your horse  is as  good has you think it is    see you in the winners  enclosure....... guess what it won  hard held  5/2  second fav

In the Dante, Buick was on Golden Horn and came from behind to pass Jack Hobbs when ridden by Dettori and today the jockeys have switched mounts and Dettori came from behind Buick who was on Jack Hobbs, which in itself suggests it was probably more about the horses than the jockeys, a concept that some on here still seem to struggle with.

Exactly so.

Still no one who can explain what makes a good jockey.

Yet they can all confidently declare which one is the best.

Dr , winning on horses that should not win makes a jockey better than other jockies .

he/she does this by tactical awareness , knowing what his/her horse is capable of and what the horses he is riding is capable of , and trying to ride a race which suits his horse more than his/her competitors. if it's not going right , the ability to change tactic

a few other factors too

just my opinion btw

That's a good opinion Pablo.

cheers basil

Tactical awareness then.

Fine, but how do you judge that when you don't even know if the jockey has been riding to instructions?

And winning on horses that shouldn't win.
Most horses that shouldn't win but do, are usually are ridden by the less popular jockeys, claimers etc.
I suppose they're only given a great ride to win when they're ridden by one of the star jockeys. 
The rest are complete flukes I suppose.

No its down to least amount of mistakes made by a jockey.

To think a good horse can be ridden poorly can still win is very rare.

What mistakes?

How are they ridden poorly?

How do you know they're not simply riding to instructions and they're only out for a good gallop against decent horses?

Im confused, you must know jockeys make mistakes ?

Well if jockeys do make obvious mistakes then why don't you tell us about them?

It's all about how strong they are,no coincidence the best ever 3 flat jockeys were and are the strongest,piggott,Fallon and Moore,and McCoy over jumps

So you want me to point out mistakes made by jockeys ?

Surely it is easier to think about who make the least mistakes.

According to you the jockey makes no difference.

It's all about how strong they are,

How do you judge or measure how strong they are?

So you want me to point out mistakes made by jockeys ?

Yes I do.

Ryan Moore or Richard Hughes in a finish,work it out you idiot

I haven't learned a thing about jockeys' riding so far.

Dr Crippen    Joined: 16 Apr 02
Replies: 19759 06 Jun 15 21:38 
It's all about how strong they are,

How do you judge or measure how strong they are?

help ?

Jockeys certainly do make mistakes but I think the suggestion here is that if one sits out the back and leave his challenge too late and the line comes too soon, then that can be seen as a mistake but might also be a case of following orders and the main target was for a later date.

Or ma_mazed66, it might be that the horse wasn't good enough or he wouldn't cooperate.

Everybody seems to be an expert on how jockeys ride, but no one can give a simple explanation on what they do that makes them good.

How do you explain to a layman what makes a good jockey?

It seems it's all down to the horses they ride.

Ima, you have posted nothing at all and i actually like your views on hear.

DR, surely you know a good ride against a poor ride ?

DR, surely you know a good ride against a poor ride ?

If it's obvious, then why is everybody struggling to explain the difference?

This idea of jockeys' 'strength' is a myth ,a total crock. They're all only flapping their arms and shaking the reins. It's the horses who have the strength and/or the will to respond.
When two horses are running towards the line in the last furlong or so -one may pull ahead and it seems ,visually, that the jockey may be 'driving' the horse to do so. But we can't know this -it could be that the second horse is weakening which makes it appear as if the leading horse is accelerating. The two horses could even both be weakening but one more than the other.
Since there is no way to run races under identical conditions with jockeys switched around -I find it hard to see how any consistent measurable means of comparison can arise.
People who talk about 'strength' are making assertions based on an assumption. I don't find that convincing and am equally justified in rejecting that assumption.
The onus is on those who make claims about 'strength' to prove that it exists and how it works -it is not on me to prove a negative.

i would say that strength and stamina , is shown in gym workouts .

it's very easy to say who is stronger or has more strength , just put them in a gym , whoever does the most reps at a given weight has most stamina
whoever lifts the heaviest is the strongest

can't be that hard to work out

So take us through how it works in races then.
Many questions can be asked
e.g. How is strength measured ?
How much strength per furlong can be applied ?
Does it work differently in sprints as opposed to long distance races ?
How about flat versus NH ?
Can all jockeys be rated on a common scale so we can say X possesses most strength and we have a league table all the way down to Y who has least ?
I'm sure there are more but that will do for starters ?

yes to all the above

???

at least you saw the funny side vubiant

you can see though that strength is measurable

The Riders In The Stand.

There's some that ride the Robbo style,and bump at every stride;

While others sit a long way back to get a longer ride.

There's some that ride as sailors do,with legs and arms and teeth;

And some that ride the horse's neck and some ride underneath.

But all the finest horsemen out-the men to Beat the Band-

You'll find amongst the crowd that ride their races in the Stand.

They'll say Chevally lost his nerve,and Regan lost his head;

They'll tell how one was 'livened up' and something else was 'dead'-

In fact the race was never run on sea ,or sky,or land

But what you'd get it better done by riders in the stand.

The rule holds good in everything in life's uncertain flight;

You'll find the winner can't go wrong,the loser can't go right.

You ride a slashing race and lose-by one-and all you're banned!

Ride like a bag of flour and win-they'll cheer you in the Stand.

                                   A.B. Patterson.

Dr Crippen     06 Jun 15 21:45 
Or ma_mazed66, it might be that the horse wasn't good enough or he wouldn't cooperate.....

You won't get any arguments from me on that as I've often said it's more about the horses than the jockeys.

Ibrahima Sonko     06 Jun 15 21:50 
Ima, you have posted nothing at all and i actually like your views on hear....

I'd personally say there are a number of things such as alertness so as not to either miss the break or fail to see something happening during a race that could hinder their chances. The ability to get a horse to settle well and be balanced and they can all do that to a degree but some better than others, although even the best will have problems with the odd horse from time to time. Tactical awareness has already been touched on but to elaborate, being in a good position to be either proactive and set the tone of a race or reactive and not get caught out by others.

Strength is obviously important but not the be all and end all and when people talk about strength anyway, they usually mean the winner of a head to head battle to the line, yet a horse can win by a minimal distance but have actually won the race earlier when kicking from the front earlier. So for me apart from the technical side of riding such as being able to get a horse to quicken, steering to go for a gap, correcting a horse going off line and/or pulling the whip through efficiently, what I particularly consider important is their decision making and judgement as much as anything else.

Who is better: Dettori or Buick

1st and 2nd in the Derby yesterday, swap the jocks... same result.. "if you have the horse....."

I rest my case.