How is this NOT a Dead Heat? See Photos

Sorry there were three photos =only this one uploaded - Sorry about Fuzz - Picture was from a freeze frame of the photo on CH4 TV on Saturday

Enlace a clear winner if you check the official photo finish on the BHA website

I started the SAME thread on the day -

reproduced below ....

Dead-Hear all day long

onlooker 23 May 15 15:10 
No financial interest in the race - or the PHOTO betting - BUT ...

If that was not a DEAD-HEAT - then what is?

This Pixel Technology is plainly [b]ridiculous -

- especially given that the the DRAW for Stalls position is entirely RANDOM - and was, until more recently, decided by something akin to pulling balls out of a Bingo machine.

the bloob 23 May 15 15:18 

that did look like a dead-heat to me too, no point trying to call it when it's that close, the horse called 2nd was touching the line. It never fails to amaze me how the odds-on shot on here always wins the photo

Bonza Bud 23 May 15 15:19 

Totally agree - The judge doesn't know the difference between the tip of the horses nose and a bit of flying slobber. I took a photo of the freeze frame on TV - There is nothing between them - Should have been a Dead Heat in my book - Dodgy Judge?

2.55


http://www.britishhorseracing.com/race-info/fixtures/results/fixture-results/result/?fixture=70246&id=587162

if you blow it up [BHA] correct result imo

http://i.imgur.com/u50m6YY.jpg

thats the photo blown up..looks like both touching the line.

Yes - Good one Roda - Cant split them on that photo

Thanks Delta -looked at BHA Official photo - again it is deffo a Dead Heat - Something needs to be done about this?

Who they give it to I dont know result ? green ?

yes

Well they both appear to be touching Line

if you click on my username
then on the photo
then click view full size , you can see the gap between the 2nds nose and the line


,,,,,,,,,,,imo

then on the photo gallery

Sorry Pablo - I can't see a gap on the BHA Official photo - Also there is no reverse mirror image - I think it's a dodgy decision and I have sent a complaint to the BHA

Casemoney - Judge called the one at top of photo the winner

bonza , click on my name pablo-fanque
then click on photo gallery
click image
then view large image

you won't be able to see it on a non enlarged photo , also it is very minute the gap , but there is a gap

Bonza Bud 25 May 15 17:20 
Sorry Pablo - I can't see a gap on the BHA Official photo - Also there is no reverse mirror image - I think it's a dodgy decision and I have sent a complaint to the BHA


dont hold ya breath..i sent 2 emails a mth ago..still no reply..they are another joke outfit.

Pablo - The problem with an enlarged photo is that it distorts the original photo. A judge looking at a Pixel is a square blob and what might appear to be the tip of a nose may just be a random darker pixel. The only way to be certain in such a close finish is to to have a tolerance of say 3 pixels at the highest definition possible from the technology. Anything that close should really be a Dead Heat. Even if it looks like a pixel between them

am I missing something but on the BHA photo its clear the darker horse is touching and the other one isn't. Looks the correct decision to me.

that is true bonza ,  from the enlarged photo i uploaded , i can see one horses nose on the line , and the others horses not ( not taking the p!ss ).

so in this instance i don't think there was a wrong call.

looks like the green horse wins to me and if you blow up at all levels the green horse always appears touching and the other one doesn't especially when u get to 400%. anyway seen more controversial ones than that especially on the dogs.

the photo is taken as the 2nd horse (bottom one in photo) touches the line, the winner has crossed the line

Correct Result!

Ha ha - When the Tennis starts - You will be telling me that Hawkeye is always right.

Our photo technology is at fault.

In 30 years of following American racing I cannot remember a single photo that left me in any doubt as to the result,

yet it is a repetative theme here.For starters that line is much too thick. It's possibly two lines,one for the winner a

and one for the second,,that appear as one line. I.E. the winner's nose is touching the front of the line,the runner up's

the back. As I've said before,what the BHA doesn't seem to realise is that justice must not only be done it must be seen

to be done. Also we usually don't get to see the mirror image and the photos are usually very poor quality.

peaz 25 May 15 17:43 

the photo is taken as the 2nd horse (bottom one in photo) touches the line, the winner has crossed the line

Correct Result!
-------------

NEVER. ever - heard that one before!

Just looked at the BHA site photo and it's about as clear as mud. The camera is at too low an angle to see the mirror

image of the near side runner and neither horse appears to be touching the line!

Well said Roggram - the result is probably undeniably right and the technology undeniably infallible but when CH4 shows a freeze frame that appears to be that close - but with a great big thick white line blocking out the tips of their noses then - It could at least show an undeniable enlarged mirror image that proves there is a gap between the two horses.

Also, there is a camera on the post and a mirror on the far side of the winning line - which presumably plays its part in the photo - but how on earth can that be completely perpendicular to the rail?

Although I understand it is not a conventional photo - It is an image showing slices of time - zapping a zillion times a second - to create separate images that are then stuck together to create a photo for human consumption.

the photo is taken as the 2nd horse (bottom one in photo) touches the line, the winner has crossed the line

the only time i am aware of this happening is in the phil smith photo scandal

The Mirror is lined up with a nearside pointer of the precise Winning Line -
- by checking for a compatible  REFLECTION in the mirror with that  specific point

DAVE Smith - pablo.

"Phil" Smith  being the bloke who spends too much wasted time fiddling about with the Grand National weights

, i was half right onlooker

Yes Onlooker - but supposing that mirror on the far side is an inch one way to the left or one inch to the right - then the winning line isn't straight and perpendicular ?

Its time the BHA discussed photo finishes with the trainers to agree on what constitutes a dead-heat otherwise, as technology develops, one day we will see a horse winning a Grand national by a fraction of a pixel.

Personally I don´t want to see any horse losing a race by a couple of millimetres or less, like I don´t trust judges to get it right.

Bonza Bud -

There is a Gap in the rails, opposite the Mirror. So that the rail does not block any view.
They line the Mirror up so that when you stand in that gap they see their REFLECTION in the centre of the Mirror.
I have done it myself, at courses.

Tiptheodds -

We have already had that - a couple of years ago - with Neptune Coolonges

«     1         Neptune Collonges (FR) 33/1     11     11-6      Paul Nicholls     157     164     169     —    
    Daryl Jacob
     
Mid-division, headway 17th, chasing leaders 4 out, 3rd last, went 2nd last 100yds, stayed on to lead post
    

«     2     nse     Sunnyhillboy (IRE) 16/1     9     10-5      Jonjo O'Neill     142     149     154     —     »
    Richie McLernon
     
Held up in mid-division, headway 9th (1st Valentines), soon tracking leaders, led elbow, headed post
--------------------

A NOSE - after over FOUR MILES - and all those FENCES - FFS

What a pedantic, "Rules are Rules," that Judge must be.

You wouldn't want to go out for a pint with the MISERABLE tawt.

thx onlooker, forgot all about that.

But surely it makes sense, when no gap between horses can reasonably be identified just to call a dead-heat? That way owners, jockeys, trainers and punters can all go home reasonably happy.

All comes down to what is deemed reasonable.

Here's Dave Smith's sacking photos from a few years ago (purely to add a bit of interest)

love a conspiracy , enlace won fair and square.

Dave Smith should have been effing shot for that Kempton call.Betvictor refused to  pay out on the 'real' winner whereas most of the other bookmakers did the honourable thing.You can guess who I backed it with ! Thought about taking Smith to court but in the end just dropped it.
This race not controversial imo..Enlace rightly called the winner.

http://media.britishhorseracing.com/images/photofinish/hireswatermark/2015_18012_0.jpg

op's images make it look dh, but this one on the bha site shows a clear pixel gap to the nose of the second that you don't see in the blurred one

thx onlooker, forgot all about that.

But surely it makes sense, when no gap between horses can reasonably be identified just to call a dead-heat? That way owners, jockeys, trainers and punters can all go home reasonably happy.

dead heats are much more common in poor light for that very reason
personally I think the dividing line is much too narrow and haven't seen real evidence that it fits with the expected margin of error from equipment etc.

^ Agree - sugarfoot -

  - and as  I posted on Page 1 - most especially given that - at the other end, the Start - the 'Luck of the DRAW' for Stalls positions is entirely Random

For example - In a race where Low Numbers are undeniably favoured -

If a horse UNfavourably Drawn 14 is then beaten by just a mere PIXEL by a horse FAVOURABLY Drawn in Stall ONE - How unjust is that?

Taking Einsteins theory into account : Time is relative to speed and distance. If the photo technology worked at the speed of light - then a pixel difference might be correct - but what we see is a time sliced photo that does not work at the speed of light nor take into account the speed of the horses and the distances from the horse to the gadgets, or indeed the distance between the horses. Anything that close should be a DEAD HEAT imo.