GEOFF BANKS RP LETTERS TODAY

HMMM,EVEN WHEN THOSE TWO BOOKS ARE THE BEST PRICE(NO COMMISSION/NO PREMIUM CHARGE)AND WILL TAKE A BET?????? AS OPPOSED TO THE SP BLUFFERS WHO RING THE POLICE WHEN ASKED FOR ANYTHING OVER £100,INTERESTING

No problem with an on-track bookie who has some decent prices. But if there's another bookie by his side with the same odds, it's all the more pointless because you *can* get a decent bet on with either of them!

Credit where it is due , he is an articulate fellow.

MAGOO,THERES NO PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU CAN BE ON! UNLIKE THE "huge 19" MR BANKS REFERS TO!

The letter to the racing post had nothing to do with your abilities to 'get on' or not. It was both a call for a new mechanism to govern SP's inc the track bookies and a defence of Aintree bookmakers who did not bet to 165% in reality

I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THESE"19 HUGE BETTING OPERATORS"CAN BE PART OF THE SP SYSTEM WHEN THEY WONT LAY A BET,PLEASE EXPLAIN??????????????

AND THAT INCLUDES THE SPORTSBOOK ON THIS SITE!

geoff makes some good points regarding how the SP is returned

I AGREE!

What letter in what paper...

The Racing Post has a smaller circulation than the Morning Star..

And with the Morning Star you get less bias....

There is no attempt to make a book, I have been racing quite a few times this year and as was said earlier, there is hardly any variance on the boards, nobody takes a view. I always ask for a few spots above what is showing and more often than not you can get bigger than what is shown if you ask nicely!

RP 46,000 MS 10,000

A wikepedia expert...

I knew that before I posted...

If you like I can go into the site and change those figures round again if you like...

Does that circulation include the papers for the fobt shops?

Yes, I suppose it must do

I didn't realise that the FOBT shops took the Morning Star

I am just glad that the madman Pullein has not got a wider audience..

He also "writes" for the Guardian so he obviously likes to keep a low profile...


Recommendation..No readers....

surprised at a racecourse bookmaker calling for betfair to be included in the sp.

why jimnast ?

BECAUSE THEY WONT LAY A BET!

ANY MARKET WERE BETFAIR ACTUALLY STAND ANYTHING,THEY ARE THE WORSE PRICE OR U CANT GET ON,SOUND FAMILIAR!

many reasons Pablo

one regarding this years grand national alone the betfair sp on shutthefrontdoor was around 28 yet on the off it was trading around 14 no explanation as to how this came about,yet a small independent sp office is obliged to pay out on that,yet when that mare in Ireland won a few years ago  betfair claimed it was a bot than got out of control so your not getting paid.

voler la vedette ?
that was in-running betting , nothing to do with SP

as for the GN SP on shutthefrontdoor , the API was not working , that may not be the reason the bfsp was so high , but may have contributed . i did read that it was due to more people laying the horse than backing it ( back/lay bfsp )

out of 7000 or so races a year , how many other have had a feck up in price like the GN that you can remember ?

I didn't say it had anything to do with sp my point was betfair will make rules to suit them.

as a matter of interest do you know anybody who lays betfair sp ?

regarding any other feck ups on sp

comply or die

i don't know any one else's betting business.

but i do know that the betfair SP is as close you will get to a horses true chance of winning percentage/odds wise .

Is that what he says Jimnast? can't be arsed getting into an argument on here but ffs.

A FEW YEARS AGO THE BETFAIR SP FOR THE GRAND NATIONAL WINNER WAS AROUND 7/1 WHEN 14/1 WAS FREELY OFFERED IN THE RING,IF MEMORY SERVES I THINK IT WAS THE FIRST YEAR THE BF SP WAS INTRODUCED! IF SHUTTHEFRONTDOOR HAD OF WON IT WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERESTING TO SEE IF ANYONE WOULD HAVE BEEN PAYED 28/1 ON HERE,I VERY MUCH DOUBT IT!

i would doubt it too facts . i would say the odds would have been reconciled .

jimnast , how do you think geoff would incorporate the betfair sp into the SP ?

it obviously would not just be the bfsp , it would be to certain percentages like the bookies do now to certain prices

so 2.2 on here would be evens
4.1 - 7/2
500 - 16/1
something similar

the sp at the national made no difference in my shop, I said to all the punters who asked that the price would shorten and it did but thankfully everyone I told took the early prices.

As far as I am concerned you should always keep the punters happy

PABLO, 2.2 ON HERE WOULD BE EVENS ON THE TRACKS I STAND 2.2 WOULD B 5/4,BUT THE SP RETURN WOULD B EVENS

what about the bad e/w races after all betfair is two separate markets.

you know what i mean facts

yes ribero he thinks the huge off course outlets should have a bigger say.

bad e/w races , i always thought that most bookmakers don't want to take bets on these races anyway .

but i am sure some mathematical calculation to come up with a fair sp , by using both the place and win market to form a SP . as you know , the place market on here does not reflect the win marke in these races , ie : you wont get 2.0 to place on a 6.0 horse in the win market , you know that

it's not that difficult

Well they do have a say because most of us idiots (myself included)hedge on the exchanges and are guided by their prices.

I find interesting many people can only get £100 on, I can get thousands on.....and im talking 10's of thousands.

i'll pass over that last remark.
Pablo did you know that course books bet to 925 to 94% on the places on most bad each way races so your system would get an sp percentage which is above 130% for 8 and 9 runner races..some would say that was unacceptable

Factmachine


STOP SHOUTING !!  Switch off the Cap button !

adge , without knowing what the calculation would be ( win market + place market - divided by or multiplied by 0.7 example ) you don't know what the percentage would be .

what ideas do online bookies have for returning the SP other than how it is now ?

10 bookies on course at say wolverhampton when there are 100-200 punters is a flawed and outdated way , do you agree ?

AS OPPOSED TO 200 BOOKS AT AINTREE OFFERING 9/1 AND THE HORSE RETURNS 6/1,ITS THE GENERATION OF THE SP THAT IS NOT JUST FLAWED ITS CORRUPT!

IF THE SP WAS TAKEN AT THE CHELTENHAM FESTIVAL FROM THE CENTAUR THERE WOULD BE UPROAR,THE PRICES HAVE LITTLE OR NO COMPARISON WITH REALITY(TATTS)

AS OPPOSED TO 200 BOOKS AT AINTREE OFFERING 9/1 AND THE HORSE RETURNS 6/1,ITS THE GENERATION OF THE SP THAT IS NOT JUST FLAWED ITS CORRUPT!

yes facts , that may be the whole point . lets return the SP from on-course books but once corruption creeps in , changes need to be made .

since ALL bookies follow betfair , the betfair SP ( or price just before the off so as to not have any feck ups like on the GN ) should make up 30% or so of the final SP , with added points per runner to create a fair over round per runner -

2.12 on here returns 5/4
4.1 returns 7/2
etc

Turn the cap lock off ffs !!

I have always wondered why some people type with the caps lock on. I suppose it's another form of attention seeking.

It's just ignorance sparrow.

probably, parispike.

Do Wah is the CAPS LOCK king!

PABLO,THE 10 BOOKIES SCENARIO AT WOLVERHAMPTON,IF HILLS AND LADS ARE IN ATTENDANCE THEN THEY WILL BE IN THE SP SAMPLE,HOW CAN THIS POSSIBLY BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN??????????????

Why doesn't the sample include all bookmakers instead of the chosen few?

GEOFF,HAVE A READ OF THE"BETFAIR SPORTSBOOK" THREAD,AND U THINK THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE SP

YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF GETTING IT FROM MY LOCAL PUB,THEY TAKE BIGGER BETS

yes , but is the beer any good

YES AND YOUR VERY WELCOME ANYTIME ADGE

overdue for a mechanism that does include 19 colossal betting empires - the days of Leslie Steele - Colin Webster long gone as have the punters

BUT GEOFF YOUR MISSING THE POINT,THE SP MECHANISM(AS IT STANDS) IS FRAUDULENT AND CORRUPT I DONT THINK ANYONE WHO STANDS ON THE RACECOURSES(OTHER THAN THE VESTED INTERESTS)WOULD DISAGREE,THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH GETTING THE SP FROM THE RACECOURSE BOOKMAKERS,ITS THE PEOPLE WHO RUN THE SYSTEM THAT RETURNS THE SP AND THOSE WHO CAN CORRUPT IT BY KNOWING WHO IS IN THE SAMPLE,ITS AN EASY FIX,ALL ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS SHOULD BE USED IN THE SP,EASY TO SET UP AND WOULD GIVE THE TRUE PRICE BACK TO THE SHOPS,BUT THE BIG 19 WOULDNT WANT THAT WOULD THEY????????????

PERSONALLY I AGREE WITH THE MAJORITY OF YOUR POSTS BUT YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE!

stop shouting :) there are many more problems than the grand national SP. Any system where a large market can influence a tiny market is nonsensical - especially where the large market isn't a part of said 'market'

THE ONCOURSE MARKET WOULD BE NEIGH IMPOSSIBLE AT THE FESTIVALS TO MANIPULATE,IRRESPECTIVE OF HOW MUCH THE 19 BLUFFERS THREW AT IT, IF ALL ONCOURSE BOOKS WERE IN THE SP,AS FOR THE SMALLER MEETS THEY COULD AND WOULD BE AFFECTED BUT IT WOULD TAKE MORE THAN A COUPLE OF GRAND IF ALL BOOKS WERE IN THE SYSTEM!

the festivals are only a tiny fraction of the cake- you're not listening

THE FESTIVALS ARE INDEED A SMALLER FRACTION OF THE CAKE(DEFINITELY NOT A TINY FRACTION)AND AS WELL AS WEEKEND RACING THIS IS WERE THE BULK OF THE BUSINESS IS GIVEN TO OUR 19 BLUFFERS,MIDWEEK THE 19 ARNT INTERESTED IN HORSE RACING AS YOU WOULD OBSERVE IF YOU EVER ENTERED ONE OF THEIR SHOPS/ARCADES/MINI CASINOS,THE FACT IS THE SP SYSTEM AS YOU ARE FULLY AWARE ISNT FIT FOR PURPOSE(UNLESS YOUR ONE OF THE CHOSEN ONES)EASILY CORRUPTED BY THE 3 MAIN BLUFFERS,AS POSTED EARLIER(YOU DONT LISTEN DO YOU)THE FIX IS EASY,BUT IT DOESNT SUIT THE ONES WHO ABUSE THE CURRENT SYSTEM,SO AT THE MOMENT NOTHING WILL BE DONE!

NEXT TIME YOUR ON THE MORNING LINE,TRY PULLING UP SOME OF THE BLUFFERS LIVE ON AIR TO HOW MUCH THEY WOULD LAY YOU IF YOU PHONED/OR TRIED TO PLACE IN ONE OF THEIR SHOPS,WOULD BE VERY ENTERTAINING,DONT FORGET POUNDS NOT LIRA

MIND YOU,IF YOU DID I DONT THINK WE WOULD BE SEEING YOU ON TV AGAIN

irrelevent to the topic

POOR!

sport advisor.its a forum..the topic often wanders onto other topics...  i think you should say it some morning to one of them smarmy gits.who tell i wont say lies but untruths!!?..id say 99% of people would be behind you big if you did..

IVE ALWAYS FOUND IT STRANGE THAT NO ONE SEEMS TO CHALLENGE THESE BLUFFERS ON THE MORNING LINE,THE LAST TO DO SO BEING JOHN MCRIRICK AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM!

SPOT ON KAVVIE BY THE WAY.

Bisto is addictive, once tasted, very few ever try anything else...!

banks is one of yer finest counts

Kavvie - and others referring to unable to get on - i think you need to consider there's two sides to the coin. Were you what bookies termed 'genuine punter' there's a couple of things you wouldn't be doing

1. you wouldn't be 'trading' on here - in fact trading didn't exist pre betfair
2. You wouldn't as a community be obsessed by free wagers offers and bonuses
3. You wouldn't be describing yourself as 'price sensitive' as a cloak to the more professional punting approach afforded by bookmaker offers-exchanges-internet

If you REALLY wanted serviuce and a 'proper' bet- you'd be betting with me, Star sports of Richard Power - but you're NOT, because betting with big companies is

1. Easy
2. Cheap
3. riddled with offers

The topic might get discussed - but be prepared you might not like the responses


If you intend responding - make sure you fully consider the above and BE HONEST

Geoff

I read many posts - of course particularly on here or twitter from people complaining they cannot get the wager they ask for - tacitly ignoring the fact there are always 'service' alternatives who don't routinely knock back bets

They are not 'way below the market'

SO before you moan - consider if you weren't about trying always to achieve the top price- arb - offer - you could always get on with genuine and honest bookmakers - because we most certainly are out there

The thing I don't understand about the online companies is why offer the price in the first place if they don't want to lay it?  Surely they should lay to x amount and then adjust the book?   The arbing thing is just a smoke screen by the way. Outside of the big festivals and perhaps Saturdays there is no way any more than a handful of tenners are arbing any horse markets on here.

please sportsadvisor don't put star sports up as a firm you can bet with you should know better

I cant believe that Geoff has been taken in by the arbing myth!

well thats the bookmakers answer these days everybody is a arber did you not know that

"Returned SP" is a manipulated nonsense, imo, and has been for years.
My guess is that it is determined largely from exchange prices and the inter-action of the shops cartel playing mostly on said exchanges but partly on-course.

I was at Wolver the day only three bookmakers turned up. Soon after two shop bookies bought cheap joints and decided to stand "bc they didn't want to be caught out."
Another major shop ( German owned) didn't bother and even withdrew its course rep. They said they could manage to control their business without.


On another matter, some shop punters are, indeed, able to get on to substantial stakes:
I saw £500 ew in a shop in Epsom on the day before the Derby; I saw similar in Newbury before the Hennessey.
This was all early morning business. There were several of us waiting while all the phoning up went on. I expect prices were cut later, but we were accommodated.

--

Out in the trotting fields, where I don't believe there is much internet imput, things ain't exactly a bed of roses for punters, even though I do admire real bookies like the FactMachine who stand.
Point is, price goes early on the winner and that's it, board wiped.
Those in the know win.
Probably this has always been the case?

Geoff Dr Atkins is bang on the money, just when you are starting to build up a bit of credibility don't try and claim that any firm operates any differently, if you are a serial looser the industry takes the shirt off your back, if you are a winner then you are shut down completely or in a certain case of a firm you have mentioned you may get a bet at SP while all the fancy early prices have already been hoovered up to that certain firms advantage.  Of course with a certain firm you can always be on at bottom price for what you like.. but then I guess that is the name of the game back high lay low.

A certain punter has inside knowledge and wants a large bet on a certain horse. He is not that price conscious because he knows that horse is virtually certain to win barring accidents.

Why should a bookmaker accommodate him?

In the olden days, he would have been accommodated because he was a known face and, in return for accepting his bet, the bookie becomes part of the inside knowledge and can use that fact in the ensuing board prices PROVIDED THE MARKET HAS VOLUME.

Nowadays, he would only be accommodated only if the price accepted by the punter was less than the exchange price AND there was sufficient liquidity on the exchange.

So, why does the punter with the inside knowledge bet with the bookie and not the exchange?

GEOFF,DEARY DEARY ME,I CANT BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOUR LAST TWO POSTS,UNBELIEVABLE! IF I STOPPED EVERYONE FROM HAVING A BET WITH ME TONIGHT AT BANGOR WHO I THOUGHT WAS ARBING,I WOULDNT STRIKE A BET, SPOT RR,MOST OF THE RACING INDUSTRY ARE A NATIONAL DISGRACE,THEY ARE NOT PREPARED TO LOSE,RULE NUMBER ONE BEING THOU SHALT NOT WIN,AN INDUSTRY THAT A PUNTER COULD GET MORE ON 30 YEARS AGO.SO GEOFF LETS SAY THE FIRST FAV AT BANGOR TONIGHT IS 2.96 ON THE EXCHANGE,THAT MEANS 2/1 WILL BE FREELY OFFERED IN THE RING(AND YOU CAN BE ON),THE SHOW OFF COURSE WILL BE 7/4 MAYBE 15/8 AT A PUSH(MACHINE GUN REQUIRED TO GET ON),BANGORBET WILL BE 13/8,NOW WHAT SHALL I DO?? SAY YOU CANT BE ON BECAUSE YOUR ARBING OR CHARGE THEM COMMISSION ON THEIR WINNING BETS AND A PREMIUM CHARGE IF THEY BACK MORE THAN 3 WINNERS OR MORE,ANY ADVICE WOULD BE APPRECIATED

Geoff banks is full of c..r...aaapppppppppp he appears as if he is the punters friend when in reality is just like the rest of the s.cumbag bookies offers nothing different and is living on his fathers past at least back then bookmakers had balls and by the way sportsadviser you are full of the same get a grip you moron

STEADY ON FRANK

have read most of this thread with interest like to offer my humble opinion . the sp is now derived using r d t's software programme whenever possible unless there are 5 or fewer bookmakers in attendance when in such cicumstances the sp's are returned manualy.my first point would that the bookmakers used in rdt's software should be strictly confidential at all times and how to police that sensitive imformation I am not sure. also why not have a random selection of bookmakers at each and every meeting put into the sp/software to throw bookies reps a dummy.as all bookmakers whether u b pik 1 or pik 101 have to bet to correct place terms now.my own preference for what it is worth is to scrap the rdt/software model and go back to manual sp returns.geof banks has an opinion which he is entitld to but in my view many of his assumptions are flawed.for example letting betfair being used somhow in deriving sp's is akin to letting the foxes look after your turkeys.

WHY NOT PUT EVERY BOOKMAKER IN THE SAMPLE,WHATS THE PROBLEM???????

I agree facts I wud have no problem with that either but why sud the present formulation hold water when approx. only 65% of oncourse bookmakers are with rdt can it be right that the other 35% are ignoredfor sp purposes?

an industry offering 2/1 (as returned on the show) because bookies at Bangor taking shillings and struggling to get by - when the exchange is 2.96 and then a commission charge.

And you think off course bookies should take your shows?

THE ONLY DOWNSIDE I CAN SEE IS THAT AT THE LIKES OF THE CHELTENHAM FESTIVAL,THOSE BETTING ON CERTAIN AREAS OF THE COURSE(CENTUAR FOR EXAMPLE) THE PRICES BEING OFFERED HAVE LITTLE BEARING ON WHATS ON OFFER TO GOOD MONEY IN THE RING,SEEING AS THESE AREAS ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN,IT SHOULDNT HAVE MUCH EFFECT ON THE OVERALL SP!THIS WOULD HAVE CUT OUT THE RIDICULOUS SITUATION WE HAD WITH SHUTTHEFRONTDOORS SP AT AINTREE,AS FOR GEOFFS SUGGESTION TO ALLOW THE 19 BLUFFERS INTO THE SP SYSTEM,THEN AS YOU SAY FLASH THAT WOULD BE AKIN TO LETTING THE FOXES LOOK AFTER YOUR TURKEYS!

GEOFF,THEN IF THE PRICE/S ARE TO BIG ,THEY WILL HAVE TO COME AND SHORTEN THEM UP FOR GOOD MONEY WONT THEY,THE DIFFERENCE GEOFF IS THAT THE BANGOR AND OTHER RACECOURSE BOOKIES WILL TAKE A BET UNLIKE YOUR OFFCOURSE FRIENDS!

GEOFF IM SURE YOU REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD NJPC,ONE OF THE FEW GOOD THING THEY DID WAS TO GET EACH ONCOURSE BOOKMAKER TO DISPLAY A MAXIMUM LIABILITY SIGN,STRAIGHT AWAY THE PUNTER COULD SEE WHO WOULD LAY A BET AND WHO THE FIDDLERS WERE,THE LOWEST I EVER WITNESSED WAS £100 THE AVERAGE WOULD HAVE BEEN £500 AND AS HIGH AS 10K+,AS YOU KNOW THIS WAS PRE EXCHANGE(ITS A LOT LOT MORE NOW),TRY WALKING INTO ONE OF THE SHOPS/OR PHONING ANY OF THE 19 BLUFFERS AND TRY TO BACK A GREYHOUND OR HORSE TO WIN £500 MIDWEEK THE LIKELY HOOD IS THEY WILL RING THE POLICE!

I have no truck with bookmakers betting to decent percentages given the opportunity I do myself.which is not as often as I would like;this debate is set to rumble on and on and personal snipes and jibes never tend to help.hence I am a rare poster.i do bet in prime picks however and fully understand all the arguments raised [didn't always have good numbers 30yrs ago had ESL numbers]I do however strongly believe those bookmakers used in the sp sample should b confidential and under no circumstances should offcorse bookmakers reps be privy to this imformation.

100% AGREE FLASH,ANYWAY OFF TO THE GREEDIEST GROUP 4 RACETRACK IN THE WORLD,WILL LET U KNOW TONIGHT IF ANY OF THE 19 BLUFFERS PLAY!

You may make some credible points factmachine but your insistence on using CAPS LOCK permanently renders your posts unreadable.

Are you being ignorant, rude or has the caps lock key genuinely stuck?

I do however strongly believe those bookmakers used in the sp sample should b confidential and under no circumstances should offcorse bookmakers reps be privy to this imformation.

Human nature dictates that this won't happen!

BANGOR YESTERDAY,ONE OF THE 19 PLAYED IN THE FIRST,BACKING THE WINNER WHICH WAS STILL FREELY AVAILABLE AT 5/1 IN THE RING ON THE OFF,SP 4/1,ONCE AGAIN IF ALL ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS WERE IN THE SP THIS COULDNT/WOULDNT HAVE BEEN THE CASE.GREEDY BANGOR RACECOURSE ACTUALLY GAVE SOMETHING AWAY LAST NIGHT,A FREE £3 BET WITH BANGORBET AFTER CHARGING £20 ENTRANCE(NO CONCESSION FOR OAPS OR CHILDREN)

Has any bookmaker on here had the opportunity to lay the offcourse firms 7/4 about something on his board that shows 2/1, as long as he shortens it to 6/4.

MORNING GEOFF,SEE TANYA THREAD,AND U STILL THINK THESE PEOPLE SHOULD BE INVOLVED WITH THE SP??????????????????????

you've got the idea , swampy

Geoff Banks is a complete guesser but I guess he has less positive information than his father..

Star Sports will lay you a bet but it will be below the proper price - nice work if you can get it and they make their money by trading..

As anyone that has ever made money by betting - you cannot win in the long run unless you are getting close to the best price..

As for arbers  - good luck to you and if I was still in the industry I would welcome them on my site if I felt that I had the right price...

Trouble is that those that are the alleged "traders" are on near minimum wages and are clueless losers at betting themselves...

SERMON OVER..

Factmachine - assume Tanya thread is another diatribe on what the big firms won't lay (you) - a common thread in your argument and I repeat totally irrelevant to the discussion on SP's
As for your points on arbing - well apart from the fact every on track 'arber' has disappeared because they simply cannot get on, because you have become the arber. You therefore, as to your point earlier, offer 2/1 a 2.96 chance. And you process that price to multi million pound bookmakers worldwide?

And you think you deserve to be part of the mechanism?

I do think on course bookies should be part of the mechanism - but not those who simply arb on course. Such attitudes are a cancer on the wider industry