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enzo thinks kingman would have beat frankel over a mile
enzo thinks kingman would have beat frankel over a mile
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Just found this.............................. April day at Ascot in 1978 when Leonardo Da Vinci - a son of Classic winners Brigadier Gerard and Lupe who had made a winning debut in the Wood Ditton - quickened clear of his rivals in the Group 3 White Rose Stakes and came home with ten lengths to spare. Within minutes he was 11-4 favourite for the Derby. So what happened? He turned up at York, odds-on for the Dante, and finished a miserable fifth. After that he went missing until the autumn, came back in a minor event at Doncaster and was never a threat. The following season he was in America, where he won just a couple of allowance races.
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boingingbaggie 25 Sep 14 07:27
ima_mazed66, why would you be surprised if he said Trempolino was the best he'd ridden? He said it alright, live on the BBC, post Arc. Because first I don't believe he would be as bad a judge as that, secondly Dancing Brave was still fresh in his memory and thirdly I just don't believe he ever would say that. I also often doubt anyone can remember or repeat verbatim what someone has said 25-30 days ago let alone years ago and people tend to get the gist of what's being said without what actually was. So for example when a jockey states such and such a horse is/was the best 2YO, sprinter, stayer (or whatever) they have ridden with that specific criteria or maybe state that a certain horse is one of the best horses they have ridden, then that often gets rehashed by others who leave out that extra specific detail. I remember being told that Arsene Wenger had said one time that Arsenal would go the season unbeaten and when they didn't he was ridiculed for it but what he actually said was: "It's not impossible. I know it will be difficult for us to go through the season unbeaten in the league. But if we keep the right attitude it's possible we can do it." He was also shown to be correct later on too for that matter. |
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IMA - the guy is correct...AND the insanity of such a comment was precisely the reason it stuck in my head despite it being a very long time ago.
I think that Arc was the ONLY group one win for Trempolino (previously been placed many times having been beaten easily) and although he was very impressive on the day (a swooping last to first surge) and doing so if memory serves in record time, that bullshít is just so hard to swallow considering the roll call of quality horses Eddery had partnered over the previous decade or more - as previously mentioned, I've heard Eddery talk some serous bollox over the years. He's not alone either...Piggott often seemed to change his mind about the best he'd ridden over the decades so it's not surprising despite having such a fantastic CV that the best moments from Sir Ivor's career seemed to be amongst his most memorable highlights. It was always a surprise when Carson regularly seemed to overlook the magnificent Troy when he talked about the Nashwan/Dayjur era and I was astonished that after Sea The Stars won The Derby, Mick Kinane said he was EASILY the best he'd ridden - you have to remember that horse had four more glorious victories after Epsom and that's why I thought such a comment was extremely premature (he'd readily forgotten Montjeu) even though he was ultimately proved right in spades! You're not gonna tell me I'm making this shít up are you just because some of those statements were made decades ago? I'm sure others on here will recall them too - you'd remember such balls as well forever if you'd heard it. FWIW, as you say it could be forgiven for a jockey to say ONE of the best but the euphoria of the moment MUST count for something. For example, when Fallon trumpeted that Dylan Thomas was the best he'd ever ridden after he won The Arc...mighn't that have had something to do with the fact that he was extremely relieved to have survived a stewards' enquiry (having looked likely to lose it) and that he also had an imminent lengthy ban hanging over his head? Some comments can safely be ignored and I could guarantee many jockeys have been embarrassed with hindsight at some of their bullish claims. |
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It`s human nature to replace your present euphoria above anything in the past. It keeps you on a high, NOW is the best win. Euphoria in the past has gone, the buzz of Trempolino bursting through to win obviously got Eddery`s senses heightened and he was still on that high, like the honeymoon period of a new sexual relationship SHE IS THE ONE!! etc...until the next one.
To be honest we don`t know what it`s like to feel the adrenaline rush of riding an Arc winner, imagine the rush of riding Trempolino was like shagging a younger Greta Scacchi and Dancing Brave a young Jane Fonda...they are all the best until it wears off. Love is blind, or lust is rushed. |
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Are you taking E'sssssssssssssssss
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AG - I was gonna throw that variable into the mix to emphasise the point but I figured you lot would just think I was turning the conversation around to FANNY yet again
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Fanny..........................................
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I don't remember Eddery saying that about Trempolino Navel-Gazer but that obviously doesn't mean he didn't but I still just find that very hard to believe. Yes he won the Arc in record time and over a second faster than Dancing Brave which I think was the previous record but more often than not jockeys don't come out with these best horse ridden statements unless asked if it applies. Obviously anything I say is just a suggestion here and I'm not claiming it as fact but let's say for example he was asked and he replied it was the best French horse he had ridden, best Arc winner he had ridden, best Arc performance from a horse he had ridden or something along those lines, then is it that big a stretch almost 30 years later to think that maybe someone might misinterpret what he actually said if memory doesn't serve?
When you say Fallon said Dylan Thomas was the best horse he had ridden after the Arc, I'm not saying that isn't the case either but did he actually say that and if so when? Immediately after the Arc or later on looking back? According to the BBC they quote him as saying this below and then O'Brien adds his part: After the stewards confirmed the victory a relieved Fallon said: "That was the longest 30 minutes of my life. I was very worried but the boys were confident I wouldn't lose it. "It is one of the best days of my life, he is one of my favourite horses." O'Brien told BBC Sport: "He has hardly ever been beaten over a mile and a half. The ground is a big thing for him but he has overcome that today. He is a super horse. Which is all positive talk regarding the horse but still isn't him saying Dylan Thomas was the best he had ridden, although I accept that he might have said it to a different source to the BBC and I'm almost sure he said it to ATR after his ban. I've also had plenty of things on here attributed to me that I have supposedly said and I've said no such thing at all and only had one yesterday where I was supposed to have said Oisin Murphy would lose the apprentice jockey title, when what I have said is that it remained to be seen how he gets on once he lost his claim and both might be seen as negative comments but they are hardly the same though. |
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One thing that you can be sure of on a thread like this is that ima_mazed will turn up; write a hundred times more than anybody else, not give any sort of opinion on the topic and waffle on...and on...and on....and on...and on...and on....
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I thought it was a given that Frankel would beat Kingman over a mile and I've made no secret of the fact that I think Frankel is the best horse I've ever seen, followed by Dancing Brave.
How's that for an opinion then? |
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Just to help ima out.
Joined: 12 Oct 09 | Topic/replies: 7,763 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog 09 Jul 14 00:29 Rode out his claim the other day and was looking a shoo in for the apprentices title a while back but I can even see him losing that now too once the better rides dry up and the 5lb and 3lb claimers take the ones he might have been on before. |
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Ima - I can fully understand the 'Chinese Whispers' syndrome when 'remembering' comments from decades ago but there are many jockeys that have uttered some serious horseshít on a regular basis over the years - I reckon Eddery & Carson are the worst exponents for that.
Marcce - Just to help Ima out AGAIN... "I've made no secret of the fact that I think Frankel is the best horse I've ever seen, followed by Dancing Brave" - that's exactly how I rate the best I've seen as well  PS - does anyone remember the Kinane comments about Sea The Stars? I can't remember whether I read it or watched/listened to him say that. |
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would kingman have demolished the field in the queen anne like frankel did?? NO ...would frankel have failed to win the guineas..NO....FRANKEL WAS ON A DIFFERENT PLANET TO KINGMAN , ENZO IS OFF HIS ROCKER
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Would have beaten Frankel in St James Palace???? Queally was to blame for Frankels close shave in that. Blasted for four furlongs when totally unnecessary. Ridden properly Frankel would have won ten lengths even if Kingman had been in it!
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Just watched the 2011 St James, and it never gets any better from a point of the ride TQ gave him.
I mean he didn`t just let Frankel to stride on he asked Frankel to go faster, to keep on quickening for 4.5 furlongs, it was extraordinary to ask the horse to do that. Even in 5f sprints there is an element of switching off and saving. TQ perhaps had a dream the night before and attempted to make it reality, ok he just got away with not having a nightmare. |
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Cheers for that Marcce for taking the trouble to search and find that, as it just goes to prove the point I was making about getting the gist of what's been said compared to what actually was and easygold stated that I had said Oisin Murphy would lose the apprentice title, whereas you have just clearly shown that what I actually said was that I can see him losing it, which isn't the same thing. Please feel free to help me out again if you like as it saves me the trouble of searching myself.
Just to point out too that the season isn't actually over yet so it's possible that he might even lose it anyway and I'm sure that at earlier stages of the season he has had a bigger lead than he has now too for that matter. |
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Rubber ring desperately needed there I think.
He might lose it? He's 20 ahead of Cam Hardie who's his nearest pursuer. There's 6 weeks left of the season. Hardie has ridden 46 winners over the first 6 months of it so riding another 21 in 6 weeks isn't going to happen is it? That's just the number he'll need if Murphy doesn't ride another winner this season as well. |
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Erm, which is why I used the specific words "the season isn't actually over yet so it's possible that he might even lose it anyway" as opposed to probable that he will.
Apart from the fact I was quite rightly denying that I had said he would lose it anyway, I was merely pointing out that even if I had said that, I still wouldn't be wrong yet despite how improbably it is because the season isn't over yet and anything can happen between now and the end of it, such as injury or suspensions. Although seeing as what I actually said was I could see it happening under certain stated provisos, if Cam Hardie or Connor Beasley (who is only 2 behind Hardie) closed the gap considerably on Oisin Murphy between now and the end of the season then I wouldn't have been far wrong even if I had said he was going to lose it. |
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NOTE TO ENZO
 . . . NOTHING NOT EVEN PEGASUS ON SPEED WITH A FURLONG START WOULD BEAT FRANKEL OVER A MILE AT NEWMARKET THAT DAY |