enzo thinks kingman would have beat frankel over a mile

if he said ..would have got within 8l he might have had a case

????

He might have a point over a mile.

yes over 1m he would have got within 8l

his only run this year in a fast run race he got beat...........he then won his other races in races run slowly

He'd have beaten him in Frankel's St James Palace.

enzo kingman a good horse but frankel  much much much better

Not a hope in my book!!!!

in a fast run race its hard to say he was superior to night of thunder...........frankel would have ate him for breakfast

Hair raising

Surprised that Enzo would make a selection without seeing who was favourite first.

lets be fair enzo had to ask atr bosses if he could subscribe to ruk at his home address.enzo the company man

Zoe would want Frankel with a saver on Kingman

I would back the one with the green cap.

Did i say green? i did din`t i..of course i mean pink.

Sep 23, 2014 -- 2:03PM, MJK wrote:

Surprised that Enzo would make a selection without seeing who was favourite first.

and checking whether its been a "good" race for favourites in the last 10 years or not

Don't want to knock Kingman as he has been a joy to watch at times this season, but as most people have said on here he wouldn't got anywhere near Frankel. Enzo is clearly clueless.

Zoffany nearly beat Frankel.

spot on clerkmore

I didn't hear him say it but if he did it's nearly a hand your notice in job imo.

Kingman might have a fantastic turn of foot Enzo, but 10 lengths a bit to make up on Frankel

Where is the 140+ in Kingman's form?
You lot should know better than to let a clueless dipstick like Enzo wind you up

Enzo thinks you could make a case for the 2nd getting this at Lingfield in the stewards'. But he also thinks it would be harsh to take it off the winner.

Funny isn't it how many were saying Frankel when he had only raced at up to a mile was one of the, if not the best millers ever but couldn't be considered the best horse ever if only racing at a maximum of a mile, so then when he steps up and shows he got 10f and would probably have got 12f too, it suddenly becomes vulnerable at a mile?

Can,'t believe either that even after all this time, there are still people out there unable to get that Frankel's SJP run shouldn't be taken at face value when if any other horse had tried to chase down the pacemaker in the way he did then it probably would have been beaten. Frankel and Zoffany only met once so it's not as if you can use their past meetings to measure how that run shouldn't be taken on face value, so let's use Excelebration instead and note how he was only 2¼L behind Frankel in the SJP purely due to how Frankel ran his race that day, compared to Excelebration being beaten 4L over 7f the previous time the two horses met and then 4L, 5L and 11L the times they met after the SJP race.

I personally don't see that as coincidence anyway and the pacemaker did a poor job in both the 2000gns and SJP and was later replaced, which supports that line of thinking too.

But neither of them would have beaten the great Brigadier Gerard.  Frankel did have one thing though which the Brigadier didn't have...............A Pacemaker.  Won the best 2,000 Guineas possibly ever run when he beat Mill Reef, My Swallow and Minsky, don't think much came out of Frankel's Guineas, (for which I'm still convinced he bolted for the first 4 furlongs). 

But on the post heading, Frankel would have beaten Kingman as a 4 year old, but as a 3 year old, not so sure.  I think Frankel improved enormously from 3 to 4, sadly we'll never be able to compare Kingman to Frankel as 4 year olds.

In my opinion Frankel would certainly have beaten the great BG over a mile and almost certainly over 10f as well. 12f is obviously an unknown and even BG only raced over that trip once (and was almost beaten). As for Kingman, a wonderful miler and one of my favs (I have an Ascot ticket specifically to watch him ), but he's not in Frankels league.

Frankel. Best ever. No doubt at all.

specifically what part, bigmart?

Zoffany


Look in any phrase book under 'red herring' and you'll find a photo of Zoffany ffs

brigadier gerard,mill reef ,Nijinsky,troy,kris,shergar,el gran senor,dancing brave,nashwan,sinndar,sea the stars and kingman were all beaten on there off days for what ever reason frankel won the group 1 st james palace stakes at royal ascot on his off day.

Evilroyslade appears to have lived for ever.

I am older than time itself Sparrow! I remember when you were nothing but part of the Big Bang.

Perhaps you could tell us about some of these, EVILROYSLADE.
1. Ormonde (foaled 1883)

2. Gladiateur (1862)

3. Isonomy (1875)

4. Persimmon (1893)

5. West Australian (1850)

6. Bay Middleton (1833)

7. Isinglass (1890)

8. Plenipotentiary (1831)

9. St Simon (1881)

10. Blair Athol (1861)

Kingman has never been given due credit. I have no doubt that Frankel was his superior over a mile but not by more the two or three lengths.

We are literally all star dust!

Anyway is this mythical race a handicap? A 3 year old Frankel giving a 3 year old Kingman 8lb?

3L is still a rather large gap to bridge.

dunlaying

many have given kingman the credit he deserved I myself said on a similar thread a few weeks ago his performances in the greenham and the st james palace were at least the equal of frankel most probably better.he is a big loss to champions day.

Champions Day this year may not be as good as usual. Hopefully the Champion Stakes will attract all the top horses.

Frankel didn't have an off day at a mile and a half or in any race abroad because they wrapped him in cotton wool to preserve his unbeaten record. Sea The Stars took on all comers from a mile to a mile and a half in three countries.

clerkmore.........sounds as if you think frankel was overated

wrapped in cotton wool ?

he raced at 4 taking in the locking,queen anne,sussex,benson and hedges and the champion stakes.

most are wrapped up at 3

but the horses he beat went on to win countless gr1s........

Sparrow! Your ability to use Google knows no bounds. All those you mention are names not new to me. Particularly Persimmon. I use this horses name as one of my passwords. Won the Derby, Eclipse, Ascot Gold Cup etc. Now the question was how would I rate Frankel? Best miler by a mile!

Also just to say....... I am in the majority worldwide.

i thought el gran senor won one of the best 2000g in my time but think even he would have trouble beating frankel.........

PP. I was and still am a massive Brigadier Gerard fan. I also think Frankel would have beaten him.

Hello Roy....hope your well sir

Bg was oustanding horse...... he would have kicked kingman into touch.........wouldnt rate kingman in the top 10 milers of the last 50 years......

ffs enzo....what are you on...

Hi Scared! Not seen you about for a while! All ok? Hope that lad of yours is doing well!

Yeah fine mate,just been busy with work
The boy passed all his tests and exams for the RAF and then decided it wasnt for him!! He's plastering now but thinking of the Royal Marines ffs

portmanpark • September 24, 2014 1:59 PM BST
clerkmore.........sounds as if you think frankel was overated

I thought that he was campaigned too conservatively, ie not running in Derby at 3, not running in Arc at 3 or 4 and not running abroad perhaps in Irish Champion Stakes. I saw him run 3 times, in Royal Lodge at 2 and in both his Champions Day runs. He was undoubtedly a great horse but I think they became obsessed with retaining his unbeaten record. Sea The Stars had nothing to prove at 4 as he had done it all at 3 and raced only once in his own country as well as over three distances.

Classic stuff Scared! Royal Marines eh!!!!???!?!?!? He is determined to make you sweat! Keep smiling, and winning!

each time I watch the 84 derby portmanpark i am still convinced one day el gran senor will go by and win a length and a half.

foxy   
""brigadier gerard,mill reef ,Nijinsky,troy,kris,shergar,el gran senor,dancing brave,nashwan,sinndar,sea the stars and kingman were all beaten on there off days for what ever reason frankel won the group 1 st james palace stakes at royal ascot on his off day.""

1982 Golden Fleece retired an Unbeaten Epsom Derby Winner,
This was the only race he Settled in because they went so fast, in a his other 3 Races he Won with a Double Handfull.

Ridden by Pat Eddery, he was held up in the early stages and was still towards the back of the field on the turn into the straight. He was then switched to the outside and began to make rapid progress.
Golden Fleece took the lead a furlong from the finish and pulled away to win by three lengths from the future St Leger winner Touching Wood with Silver Hawk third.
His winning time of 2:34.27[8] was the fastest for almost fifty years.
After the race, Eddery called Golden Fleece "the best horse I have ever sat on".

I think Kingman was an even speedier horse than Frankel; I reckon over 6/7 furlongs (and perhaps a tactical mile), Kingman would have beaten Frankel. Frankel would have won by a few lengths over a strongly run mile & even further over 10 furlongs.

I think Kingman was an even speedier horse than Frankel; I reckon over 6/7 furlongs (and perhaps a tactical mile), Kingman would have beaten Frankel. Frankel would have won by a few lengths over a strongly run mile & even further over 10 furlongs.

I think Kingman was an even speedier horse than Frankel; I reckon over 6/7 furlongs (and perhaps a tactical mile), Kingman would have beaten Frankel. Frankel would have won by a few lengths over a strongly run mile & even further over 10 furlongs.

Enzo will be having a laugh at successfully winding up so many
Betfairians.

Eddery is an are soul.

He called Trempolino the best horse he had ever ridden, precisely one year after he had ridden Dancing Brave to win the Arc.

A short memoried utter are soul; and as for someone who never rode a finish, if he couldn't win...

Pointless speculating, no-one will ever know.....

How can a jockey claim a particular horse is the best horse he has ever ridden until he actually rides it first? Criticising Pat Eddery for that would be a bit like criticising Tom Queally for example for saying at the time that Twice Over was the best horse he had ever ridden if Frankel hasn't come along yet.

Surely Eddery can claim Dancing Brave was the best if that was the case at the time and then switch to Trempolino if he rode that one later on? Although I'd also be very surprised if he actually said Trempolino was the best horse he had ever ridden anyway.

Frankel would have beaten Kingman at any distance from one furlong to five miles!!!!!

ima_mazed66, why would you be surprised if he said Trempolino was the best he'd ridden?

He said it alright, live on the BBC, post Arc.

Kingman would have had a respectful view of Frankel's rear disappearing into the distance, if he could see him as in between the pair may have been the quality but not often talked about Excelebration. Just an opinion.

I remember eddery saying Leonardo di vinci was the best he had ever ridden.

golden fleece agreed he was good on derby day but we never saw him again.

Pat Eddery claimed, on television, that "Leonardo Da Vinci" was the best horse he ever sat on .  Shortly after that it started odds-on for the White Rose Stakes at Ascot.  They're still looking for him.  Never heard of afterwards.  Eddery was a great jockey but a vile judge of a horse.

themadghost.........was that a wildenstein horse..........think cecil trained it

If a jockey has been given shares in a horse he may say it's the best to try to boost it's value.

each time I watch the 84 derby portmanpark i am still convinced one day el gran senor will go by and win a length and a half.


I just watched that on Youtube. Brilliant race.   But, erm, who won????

Peter Walwyn trained it Portman.I remember Eddery saying it was the best he`d ridden after it had hacked up on almost unraceable ground.

elbalko........was it a wilderstein horse??

Yes it was.I think it was Derby fav after that run.

Eddery was a great jockey but a vile judge of a horse.

Yes very much like John Francome, and poor judges make poor trainers.

elbalko........did it win a race at the craven meeting.............either the wood ditton or the 10f maiden??

Can`t remember but it must have been a big meeting because it was televised.Must admit it looked a world beater that day but must have had feet like paddles.

Just found this.............................. April day at Ascot in 1978 when Leonardo Da Vinci - a son of Classic winners Brigadier Gerard and Lupe who had made a winning debut in the Wood Ditton - quickened clear of his rivals in the Group 3 White Rose Stakes and came home with ten lengths to spare. Within minutes he was 11-4 favourite for the Derby. So what happened? He turned up at York, odds-on for the Dante, and finished a miserable fifth. After that he went missing until the autumn, came back in a minor event at Doncaster and was never a threat. The following season he was in America, where he won just a couple of allowance races.

boingingbaggie 25 Sep 14 07:27 
ima_mazed66, why would you be surprised if he said Trempolino was the best he'd ridden?

He said it alright, live on the BBC, post Arc.

Because first I don't believe he would be as bad a judge as that, secondly Dancing Brave was still fresh in his memory and thirdly I just don't believe he ever would say that.

I also often doubt anyone can remember or repeat verbatim what someone has said 25-30 days ago let alone years ago and people tend to get the gist of what's being said without what actually was. So for example when a jockey states such and such a horse is/was the best 2YO, sprinter, stayer (or whatever) they have ridden with that specific criteria or maybe state that a certain horse is one of the best horses they have ridden, then that often gets rehashed by others who leave out that extra specific detail.

I remember being told that Arsene Wenger had said one time that Arsenal would go the season unbeaten and when they didn't he was ridiculed for it but what he actually said was:

"It's not impossible. I know it will be difficult for us to go through the season unbeaten in the league. But if we keep the right attitude it's possible we can do it."

He was also shown to be correct later on too for that matter.

IMA - the guy is correct...AND the insanity of such a comment was precisely the reason it stuck in my head despite it being a very long time ago.
I think that Arc was the ONLY group one win for Trempolino (previously been placed many times having been beaten easily) and although he was very impressive on the day (a swooping last to first surge) and doing so if memory serves in record time, that bullshít is just so hard to swallow considering the roll call of quality horses Eddery had partnered over the previous decade or more - as previously mentioned, I've heard Eddery talk some serous bollox over the years.

He's not alone either...Piggott often seemed to change his mind about the best he'd ridden over the decades so it's not surprising despite having such a fantastic CV that the best moments from Sir Ivor's career seemed to be amongst his most memorable highlights.

It was always a surprise when Carson regularly seemed to overlook the magnificent Troy when he talked about the Nashwan/Dayjur era and I was astonished that after Sea The Stars won The Derby, Mick Kinane said he was EASILY the best he'd ridden - you have to remember that horse had four more glorious victories after Epsom and that's why I thought such a comment was extremely premature (he'd readily forgotten Montjeu) even though he was ultimately proved right in spades!

You're not gonna tell me I'm making this shít up are you just because some of those statements were made decades ago?
I'm sure others on here will recall them too - you'd remember such balls as well forever if you'd heard it.

FWIW, as you say it could be forgiven for a jockey to say ONE of the best but the euphoria of the moment MUST count for something.
For example, when Fallon trumpeted that Dylan Thomas was the best he'd ever ridden after he won The Arc...mighn't that have had something to do with the fact that he was extremely relieved to have survived a stewards' enquiry (having looked likely to lose it) and that he also had an imminent lengthy ban hanging over his head?

Some comments can safely be ignored and I could guarantee many jockeys have been embarrassed with hindsight at some of their bullish claims.

It`s human nature to replace your present euphoria above anything in the past. It keeps you on a high, NOW is the best win. Euphoria in the past has gone, the buzz of Trempolino bursting through to win obviously got Eddery`s senses heightened and he was still on that high, like the honeymoon period of a new sexual relationship SHE IS THE ONE!! etc...until the next one.

To be honest we don`t know what it`s like to feel the adrenaline rush of riding an Arc winner, imagine the rush of riding Trempolino was like shagging a younger Greta Scacchi and Dancing Brave a young Jane Fonda...they are all the best until it wears off. Love is blind, or lust is rushed.

Are you taking E'sssssssssssssssss

AG - I was gonna throw that variable into the mix to emphasise the point but I figured you lot would just think I was turning the conversation around to FANNY yet again

Fanny..........................................

I don't remember Eddery saying that about Trempolino Navel-Gazer but that obviously doesn't mean he didn't but I still just find that very hard to believe. Yes he won the Arc in record time and over a second faster than Dancing Brave which I think was the previous record but more often than not jockeys don't come out with these best horse ridden statements unless asked if it applies. Obviously anything I say is just a suggestion here and I'm not claiming it as fact but let's say for example he was asked and he replied it was the best French horse he had ridden, best Arc winner he had ridden, best Arc performance from a horse he had ridden or something along those lines, then is it that big a stretch almost 30 years later to think that maybe someone might misinterpret what he actually said if memory doesn't serve?

When you say Fallon said Dylan Thomas was the best horse he had ridden after the Arc, I'm not saying that isn't the case either but did he actually say that and if so when? Immediately after the Arc or later on looking back? According to the BBC they quote him as saying this below and then O'Brien adds his part:

After the stewards confirmed the victory a relieved Fallon said: "That was the longest 30 minutes of my life. I was very worried but the boys were confident I wouldn't lose it.

"It is one of the best days of my life, he is one of my favourite horses."

O'Brien told BBC Sport: "He has hardly ever been beaten over a mile and a half. The ground is a big thing for him but he has overcome that today. He is a super horse.

Which is all positive talk regarding the horse but still isn't him saying Dylan Thomas was the best he had ridden, although I accept that he might have said it to a different source to the BBC and I'm almost sure he said it to ATR after his ban.

I've also had plenty of things on here attributed to me that I have supposedly said and I've said no such thing at all and only had one yesterday where I was supposed to have said Oisin Murphy would lose the apprentice jockey title, when what I have said is that it remained to be seen how he gets on once he lost his claim and both might be seen as negative comments but they are hardly the same though.

One thing that you can be sure of on a thread like this is that ima_mazed will turn up; write a hundred times more than anybody else, not give any sort of opinion on the topic and waffle on...and on...and on....and on...and on...and on....

I thought it was a given that Frankel would beat Kingman over a mile and I've made no secret of the fact that I think Frankel is the best horse I've ever seen, followed by Dancing Brave.

How's that for an opinion then?

Just to help ima out.

Joined: 12 Oct 09 | Topic/replies: 7,763 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog                                09 Jul 14 00:29

Rode out his claim the other day and was looking a shoo in for the apprentices title a while back but I can even see him losing that now too once the better rides dry up and the 5lb and 3lb claimers take the ones he might have been on before.

Ima - I can fully understand the 'Chinese Whispers' syndrome when 'remembering' comments from decades ago but there are many jockeys that have uttered some serious horseshít on a regular basis over the years - I reckon Eddery & Carson are the worst exponents for that.


Marcce - Just to help Ima out AGAIN...

"I've made no secret of the fact that I think Frankel is the best horse I've ever seen, followed by Dancing Brave" - that's exactly how I rate the best I've seen as well

PS - does anyone remember the Kinane comments about Sea The Stars?
I can't remember whether I read it or watched/listened to him say that.

would kingman have demolished the field in the queen anne like frankel did?? NO ...would frankel have failed to win the guineas..NO....FRANKEL WAS ON A DIFFERENT PLANET TO KINGMAN , ENZO IS OFF HIS ROCKER

Would have beaten Frankel in St James Palace???? Queally was to blame for Frankels close shave in that. Blasted for four furlongs when totally unnecessary. Ridden properly Frankel would have won ten lengths even if Kingman had been in it!

Just watched the 2011 St James, and it never gets any better from a point of the ride TQ gave him.

I mean he didn`t just let Frankel to stride on he asked Frankel to go faster, to keep on quickening for 4.5 furlongs, it was extraordinary to ask the horse to do that. Even in 5f sprints there is an element of switching off and saving.

TQ perhaps had a dream the night before and attempted to make it reality, ok he just got away with not having a nightmare.

Cheers for that Marcce for taking the trouble to search and find that, as it just goes to prove the point I was making about getting the gist of what's been said compared to what actually was and easygold stated that I had said Oisin Murphy would lose the apprentice title, whereas you have just clearly shown that what I actually said was that I can see him losing it, which isn't the same thing. Please feel free to help me out again if you like as it saves me the trouble of searching myself.

Just to point out too that the season isn't actually over yet so it's possible that he might even lose it anyway and I'm sure that at earlier stages of the season he has had a bigger lead than he has now too for that matter.

Rubber ring desperately needed there I think.

He might lose it?

He's 20 ahead of Cam Hardie who's his nearest pursuer. There's 6 weeks left of the season. Hardie has ridden 46 winners over the first 6 months of it so riding another 21 in 6 weeks isn't going to happen is it? That's just the number he'll need if Murphy doesn't ride another winner this season as well.

Erm, which is why I used the specific words "the season isn't actually over yet so it's possible that he might even lose it anyway" as opposed to probable that he will.

Apart from the fact I was quite rightly denying that I had said he would lose it anyway, I was merely pointing out that even if I had said that, I still wouldn't be wrong yet despite how improbably it is because the season isn't over yet and anything can happen between now and the end of it, such as injury or suspensions. Although seeing as what I actually said was I could see it happening under certain stated provisos, if Cam Hardie or Connor Beasley (who is only 2 behind Hardie) closed the gap considerably on Oisin Murphy between now and the end of the season then I wouldn't have been far wrong even if I had said he was going to lose it.

NOTE TO ENZO . . . NOTHING NOT EVEN PEGASUS ON SPEED WITH A FURLONG START WOULD BEAT FRANKEL OVER A MILE AT NEWMARKET THAT DAY