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I for one believe it is. Ascot will suit and with ground conditions perfect looks to be a lump on wager. As discussed on numerous occasions thought the horse was unlucky in the Guineas when things did not pan out ideally for him, but I have no doubt at all he will reverse the form with Night of Thunder.....plus nothing else in the race can possibly get near him.
Family silver already despatched to my nearest bookmaker!
Family silver already despatched to my nearest bookmaker!
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Nailed on cert if ever there was such a thing. In my opinion, of course.
Yeah that's always a possibility portmanpark and especially in a small field where it could be tactical and develop into a sprint but Ascot's straight is long and uphill and there will be plenty of time for anything to kick from there and whilst I'm not suggesting the other Hannon runner is a pacemaker or anything, they might think if they couldn't beat the first 2 in the guineas one way then another type of ride might be the plan.
I think the horse stayed the mile well enough at Newmarket bigmart and certainly did at Curragh and so I wouldn't use that as an excuse if beaten this time.
I think the horse stayed the mile well enough at Newmarket bigmart and certainly did at Curragh and so I wouldn't use that as an excuse if beaten this time.
Not unlucky in the 2000 Gns, but it was a good field and hopefully firm is not in the going description. Toormore can make the pace. A good turn of foot. Stays a mile well enough and could be one of the best milers in recent years (Frankel aside) if he wins impressively tomorrow. Personally I think he does, although is not a certainty by any means, that's why it's even money, but he will do for me.
GB / Ascot 17th Jun / 16:25 1m Grp1 Kingman Back 38330196244 16-Jun-14
17:40 2.06 600.00 2.06 16-Jun-14 18:04
GB / Ascot 17th Jun / 16:25 1m Grp1 Kingman Back 38330196244 16-Jun-14
17:40 2.06 600.00 2.06 16-Jun-14 18:04
curragh is an easier course than newmarket Ima . he is a good horse but no world beater !
paul the b.....longtime no speak..hope you are well
Think Doyle went a little early at HQ and if he gets it right 2mrw as at The Curragh, we cud well see a very smart performance from an exceptional talent.
There will be some who will give you an argument on whether Curragh is easier than Newmarket bigmart or at least will suggest it's not significantly easier anyway but to win a classic over a mile by 5L on ground described as Soft To Heavy doesn't really suggest a non-stayer I wouldn't have thought. Just for good measure too and because of the ground conditions and how it slopes towards the rail coming off the bend they all tacked over to the far side rail instead of taking the bend tight and Kingman would have covered more ground than previous winners taking the shorter route.
Agree that the horse is no world beater but do think it's very very good though and think that applies to the first 3 home at Newmarket and possibly first 4 if you include Shifting Power and that was the horse finishing 5L behind Kingman at Curragh and was around half of that distance behind it at Newmarket.
Agree that the horse is no world beater but do think it's very very good though and think that applies to the first 3 home at Newmarket and possibly first 4 if you include Shifting Power and that was the horse finishing 5L behind Kingman at Curragh and was around half of that distance behind it at Newmarket.
Newmarket 1 mile standard time 1 min 35.1 seconds
Curragh 1 mile standard time 1 min 36.5 seconds
I would therefore suggest that the Curragh is a stiffer test than Newmarket.
Ascot 1 mile standard time 1 min 39.8 seconds.Another step up on stamina required.
I respect all the top four`s chances and would love to see War Command win a thriller but the ground could be against him.
Curragh 1 mile standard time 1 min 36.5 seconds
I would therefore suggest that the Curragh is a stiffer test than Newmarket.
Ascot 1 mile standard time 1 min 39.8 seconds.Another step up on stamina required.
I respect all the top four`s chances and would love to see War Command win a thriller but the ground could be against him.
kingsman has a lot off speed in his pedigree ,with main rival on paper night of thunder , having a bit more stamina , if the race was run over 7f kingsman wd beat it doing handstands ,if its was over 1.1m night off thunder wins every time , but this miles makes it much closer ,i have no doupt kingsman is the better animal , if its a slow pace just tell your bookmaker to pay out after a furlong , if he uses toolmoor as a pace maker cd be very close if its a scorching gallop , night off thunder is a fresher horse , if you put me on the spot i wd say kingsman will win , r/fc safe option not original but looks a banker f/c to me 
FELTFAIR
i hear you but i still think newmarket is a stiffer track imo , these ave times , you can bet your bott doller its soft or heavy twice as much as curragh compaired to newmarket , yes i agree Ascot is stiffer than the other 2 tracks deffo hannon knows the only way he has a chance off beating kingsman is to set a scorching pace , try run the sting out off it !
i hear you but i still think newmarket is a stiffer track imo , these ave times , you can bet your bott doller its soft or heavy twice as much as curragh compaired to newmarket , yes i agree Ascot is stiffer than the other 2 tracks deffo hannon knows the only way he has a chance off beating kingsman is to set a scorching pace , try run the sting out off it !
Thanks Bigmart, if he doesn't win, i will have to rely on Perfect Heart in the following race 
Andrew your are deffo on the best horse , you don!t want a scorching gallop ,were his stamina cd be tested to the max , most think he improved at curragh ! stable going well .all the best sir !
I was a Toormore fan before the Guineas and can forgive that run. Just about four lengths behind that day so not a "bad" effort. I firmly believe that was not his true form and am more inclined to believe the form of his previous run at HQ . That was run in a faster time than the 2000 and on slower ground. Ryan Moore aboard again. Wouldn't be the first time he has gone in on the second string!!!
I think Kingman is a good thing. I know War Command won the Coventry on this track but the form of that race hasn't really worked out to justify backing him at this level. The track should suit Kingman and I can only see him relishing the lively ground. I think this could be the race that makes him a star.
For me it will be decided by the ground .Slower ground will suit Kingman
2 11x21 Night Of Thunder 1 55.5 47.5
1 1x121 Kingman 7 54.5 57.5
5 11x17 Toormore 5 52.5 0.0
6 311x9 War Command 6 52.5 0.0
3 131x0 Outstrip 2 49 0.0
4 3x11 Prince Of All 3 45.5 0.0
7 23x1 Yuften 4 40.5 0.0
2 11x21 Night Of Thunder 1 55.5 47.5
1 1x121 Kingman 7 54.5 57.5
5 11x17 Toormore 5 52.5 0.0
6 311x9 War Command 6 52.5 0.0
3 131x0 Outstrip 2 49 0.0
4 3x11 Prince Of All 3 45.5 0.0
7 23x1 Yuften 4 40.5 0.0
I can't have it that Night Of Thunder is as good a horse as Kingman. I think that Guineas win was more than a tad fortunate and would go the other way more often than not if re-run. I think we'll see Kingman confirm this to be the case tomorrow as he routs this bunch.
At the odds, Night Of Thunder is a no-brainer. Could his form have worked out any better? Had a nice break whereas Kingman had two tough races back to back and isn't a hardy horse.
the r/fc is the bet ev money nap off the day , ps what you say cider makes perfect sense to me , really think the race result will depend on the pace off the race night off thunder should stay 1.2 miles !
Kingman wont be in the top 2.
If he can get 3rd here then he has done well.
If he can get 3rd here then he has done well.
Just out of interest Glossy, what was it that you thought was fortunate about Night of Thunder's guineas win?
I think that Kingman is all about the ground and that if there is `firm` in there then there is a chance he keeps a little bit back for himself.
At Newbury in the Greenham you saw the real deal with Kingman letting himself down on the good ground.
At Newmarket in the 2000G i`m not sure the horse was as comfortable, not by much but it made the difference.
At the Curragh, well he sluiced through the soft conditions.
Good/soft at Ascot is perfect. I can`t see him beat.
At Newbury in the Greenham you saw the real deal with Kingman letting himself down on the good ground.
At Newmarket in the 2000G i`m not sure the horse was as comfortable, not by much but it made the difference.
At the Curragh, well he sluiced through the soft conditions.
Good/soft at Ascot is perfect. I can`t see him beat.
Night Of Thunder won fair and square, nothing flukey or lucky about it.The one lesson you learn repeatedly in horse racing is ,BELIEVE the form book. Night Of Thunder WINs the rematch nae bother at aw.....true price 1.5......lump on...
Kingman is a lay for me at the price. the layers have 3 running for them.
Mogambo
I don`t think the form book includes g/s ground regarding the 2000G. Ground is vital for many horses.
I don`t think the form book includes g/s ground regarding the 2000G. Ground is vital for many horses.
According to the rp the ground is drying out which will favour Night Of Thunder .He improved past Kingman because of the groend and arguably should be fav considering the amount of ground he covered in the guineas .
It`s not going to be good/firm on the round course. It`s good/soft at the moment, perhaps good ground can be expected.
Whatever as Kingman would prefer soft and has to beat Night Of Thunder not the other way around as the betting suggests .
A cracking race whatever the result but think the conditions will suit Night Of Thunder .
A cracking race whatever the result but think the conditions will suit Night Of Thunder .
think a lot off punters are forgetting the fact night off thunder drifted badly across the track loosing several len
in the process , the smaller field should suit kingsman , but hannon is as fly ass a fox and twice as fast ! this is a stiffer track than newmarket and its a 1.01 his other runner who is a good horse in its own right will set a furious gallop here ,if not kingsman will kill the race with its speed ! but as sladey pointed out toormoore produced a better time at newmarket in the greenham than the fav did in the 2000
night of thunder + points 1] has had more off a break
2] stiffer track will suit
3] on breeding and 2yr old form looks even better with cut
4] has a formidable stable m8 letting the stable control the pace
kingsman + points 1] seam to thrive in the irish 2000
2] should not get traffic problems delivering its turn off foot
for betting purposes a r/fc for me but if doing a single has to be night of thunder at the prices ! but i don't want to boggie Andrew with his bet !
in the process , the smaller field should suit kingsman , but hannon is as fly ass a fox and twice as fast ! this is a stiffer track than newmarket and its a 1.01 his other runner who is a good horse in its own right will set a furious gallop here ,if not kingsman will kill the race with its speed ! but as sladey pointed out toormoore produced a better time at newmarket in the greenham than the fav did in the 2000
night of thunder + points 1] has had more off a break
2] stiffer track will suit
3] on breeding and 2yr old form looks even better with cut
4] has a formidable stable m8 letting the stable control the pace
kingsman + points 1] seam to thrive in the irish 2000
2] should not get traffic problems delivering its turn off foot
for betting purposes a r/fc for me but if doing a single has to be night of thunder at the prices ! but i don't want to boggie Andrew with his bet !
You mean the Craven for Toormore Bigmart.
In the Greenham at Newbury, Kingman quickened up and destroyed Night Of Thunder. Yes this was over 7f but no one would have expected Night Of Thunder to reverse the places over a mile.
Interestingly enough in the 2000G at Newmarket on g/f ground Kingman failed to quicken up, he only kept on. At the Curragh he quickened up.
For me the ground at Newmarket prevented the horse letting himself down and quickening up. We saw at Newbury which one can quicken up. As good as the form is in the 2000G we may not have Kingman at his best.
In the Greenham at Newbury, Kingman quickened up and destroyed Night Of Thunder. Yes this was over 7f but no one would have expected Night Of Thunder to reverse the places over a mile.
Interestingly enough in the 2000G at Newmarket on g/f ground Kingman failed to quicken up, he only kept on. At the Curragh he quickened up.
For me the ground at Newmarket prevented the horse letting himself down and quickening up. We saw at Newbury which one can quicken up. As good as the form is in the 2000G we may not have Kingman at his best.
yes the craven , yes i was telling racing star before the 2000 i thought a little cut wd be better , as he was not playing if it came up soft , yes it is better with a little cut, cd not just be down to breeding , that op it had , horse might be looking after it'self
but am telling you night off thunder is also better with cut , this is going to be a titanic battle !
but am telling you night off thunder is also better with cut , this is going to be a titanic battle !
good ground no excuses today from either stable its show time , what punters got to understand this race is worth millions to the winner on stud value alone ,as they fight for supremacy
1x 2000 in the bag apiece !
1x 2000 in the bag apiece !
A few points mart:
You say kingman is fast as a fox. Well foxes arent fast animals.
O Brien has won the race 4 times in recent years only a mug would not be mentioning his runner here.
Hannon also has a good record in the race. Gosden is 0-5.
Kingman looks to be Ascots version of Annie Power ie a ridiculously short priced horse that wont be winning but will attract all the mugs. Kingsman is the bookmakers appreciation horse. How its fav against night of thunder is beyond me, thats not to say ap o brien wont chin them all
You say kingman is fast as a fox. Well foxes arent fast animals.
O Brien has won the race 4 times in recent years only a mug would not be mentioning his runner here.
Hannon also has a good record in the race. Gosden is 0-5.
Kingman looks to be Ascots version of Annie Power ie a ridiculously short priced horse that wont be winning but will attract all the mugs. Kingsman is the bookmakers appreciation horse. How its fav against night of thunder is beyond me, thats not to say ap o brien wont chin them all
And atop mame deopping racingbstar as if you have been advising a top pro
if that donkeys a pro punterbim a sutchman.
if that donkeys a pro punterbim a sutchman.
its my banker,but no good thing,o brien had coughing in the stable,hes a law into himself.gl
i am fully aware off the stables runners tea
his stable not in the rudest off health is it ?
he won the 1st race the last 2 years has also won the 3.05 7 times , you need to get a cup off tea sleepy head , i never said as fast as fox , i said hannon as sly as a fox but twice as fast ! yes this meeting has been kind to his runners in the past tea but stable not cutting the ice at the min for me ! and for the record a fox is very fast and has an abundance of stamina ! how many dogs can catch a rabbit , apart from a whippet ! yes night off thunder has to be the value bet here 5/2
his stable not in the rudest off health is it ? he won the 1st race the last 2 years has also won the 3.05 7 times , you need to get a cup off tea sleepy head , i never said as fast as fox , i said hannon as sly as a fox but twice as fast !
yes this meeting has been kind to his runners in the past tea but stable not cutting the ice at the min for me ! and for the record a fox is very fast and has an abundance of stamina ! how many dogs can catch a rabbit , apart from a whippet ! yes night off thunder has to be the value bet here 5/2
Night Of Thunder has shown in both his runnings this season that he needs shoving along for 7f to get going. Is Hughes the man for the job today? Fallon a much more forceful rider so those backing Night Of Thunder will be shouting at Hughes to start pushing a long way from home.
The IR prices will be interesting when Kingman is on the bridle and Night Of Thunder being rowed.
The IR prices will be interesting when Kingman is on the bridle and Night Of Thunder being rowed.
just to clarify tea bag
Foxes are able to run between 30 and 40 miles per hour at their fastest depending on the breed. For example, the common red fox has a top running speed of approximately 48 kilometers per hour, which is around 30 miles per hour. Another example is the gray fox that runs at around 42 miles per hour at its fastest speed.
According to the University of Michigan, the red fox not only runs at 30 miles per hour but also has the ability to jump over obstacles that are two meters high. They have claws on both their front and hind feet for getting good traction in the earth. Their front feet have five claws, and their back have four.
The high running speed of foxes is necessary for them to both catch prey and avoid larger predators. Their jumping ability also helps them use obstacles as a means of escape when they are being chased. The red fox lives just three years on average in the wild, but they are able to live as long as 15 years in captivity. Fox mothers and fathers take care of children in dens for several weeks, and siblings help out as well.
Foxes are able to run between 30 and 40 miles per hour at their fastest depending on the breed. For example, the common red fox has a top running speed of approximately 48 kilometers per hour, which is around 30 miles per hour. Another example is the gray fox that runs at around 42 miles per hour at its fastest speed.
According to the University of Michigan, the red fox not only runs at 30 miles per hour but also has the ability to jump over obstacles that are two meters high. They have claws on both their front and hind feet for getting good traction in the earth. Their front feet have five claws, and their back have four.
The high running speed of foxes is necessary for them to both catch prey and avoid larger predators. Their jumping ability also helps them use obstacles as a means of escape when they are being chased. The red fox lives just three years on average in the wild, but they are able to live as long as 15 years in captivity. Fox mothers and fathers take care of children in dens for several weeks, and siblings help out as well.
Superb i made big mart go to the effort of googling the speed of foxes and its not even 9am. Im on fire.
As for o'brian stable form???????
3 winners from last 6 runners.
Has entered 3 group races in last 10/11 days
1st,2nd,1st
Shocking hey.
This is THE flat meeting of the year
If you think aidans horses will be anything other than peak condition then give up now.
As for o'brian stable form???????
3 winners from last 6 runners.
Has entered 3 group races in last 10/11 days
1st,2nd,1st
Shocking hey.
This is THE flat meeting of the year
If you think aidans horses will be anything other than peak condition then give up now.
tea err i only googled to demonstrate , i new the answer already 
if stable is in form he cd have a few winners , just been a bit in and out form me ! hot weather does not suit long traveller's i wd back his other 2 but not his runner in this race , but hey its all about opinion ,
if stable is in form he cd have a few winners , just been a bit in and out form me ! hot weather does not suit long traveller's i wd back his other 2 but not his runner in this race , but hey its all about opinion ,
With 2 wins from 5 outings in UK plus the winner of last years Breeders Cup Juvenile (Turf) Outstrip will be the selection. He had The Great Gatsby in 2nd place when winning the Champagne Stakes by 3 lengths at Doncaster in September, the runner up won The Prix De Jockey Cub in France 2 weeks ago. Trainer C Appleby's horses have been in great form this month and with W Buick in the saddle, in my view the selection must be in with a chance of finishing in the top 2. I find the 33/1 odds generous and a small stakes each way selection could prove to be profitable.
Now in a big field I'd expect Kingman and Night Of Thunder to battle it out especially if there was a fast pace, however in a small field both will find it tough to get the cover they need. The one I have always liked for Royal Ascot is War Command who wasn't beaten that far by the principles in the 2000 Guineas and we all know that is red hot form. The only course winner in this field and last year's impressive Coventry Stakes winner has a great chance of turning Guineas form around especially if Joseph O'Brien rides the race to win using his mounts turn of foot. The other two might just be keeping an eye on each other in their own personal battle which might leave the door open to my fancy. Fascinating race in store and I think a shock wouldn't be too much of one for me.
Just lumped a grand on the thing. Fingers crossed.
a bit too short for me cosidering Kingman's best performances have been on slower than good.
no bet.
no bet.
Just doesn't strike me as a real world beater. Too many ifs and buts. Toormore win and place for me. Return to best form required.
godsend
in a small field i think toormore's eyeballing ability comes into play more.
no split group bias this time and less influence on how many fitness runs have been had.
expecting a cracker.
in a small field i think toormore's eyeballing ability comes into play more.
no split group bias this time and less influence on how many fitness runs have been had.
expecting a cracker.
For Night Of Thunder to win the 2000 despite drifting right across the track, strikes me that he is a very good horse. If he had kept straight, he would have beat Kingman 2 lengths. 3/1 looks a value bet to me.
going for night of thunder in match bet with kingman at around 3.3on here ,toormore to set a strong pace may find out kingman and hughes to pick up the pieces
I'll be disappointed and shall have a decidedly bruised wallet if Kingman is beaten here. Think it's a certainty.
The prices assume Night Of Thunder was a fortunate winner at Newmarket and Kingman was unlucky, I didn't see it that way, so at the odds it has to be Night of Thunder of the 2.
War Command was breathtaking last year.
12s e/w to come back to form
12s e/w to come back to form
thought he was going flying into the rail at one point, real acceleration 1f out
Jun 17, 2014 -- 4:19PM, CheltenhamRoar wrote:
War Command wins this on the snaff
.
One again Teabag shows he knows nothing,zip,nada,zilch about the game. Clueless guessing bankrupt mug
TEABAGHDAD 16 Jun 14 23:37 Joined: 28 Jun 12 | Topic/replies: 2,157 | Blogger: TEABAGHDAD's blog
Kingman wont be in the top 2.
If he can get 3rd here then he has done well.
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Deary deary me
mirisoo 16 Jun 14 18:08 Joined: 15 Aug 11 | Topic/replies: 460 | Blogger: mirisoo's blog
Nailed on cert if ever there was such a thing. In my opinion, of course.
Nailed on cert if ever there was such a thing. In my opinion, of course.
TEABAGHDAD 16 Jun 14 11:13 Joined: 28 Jun 12 | Topic/replies: 2,154 | Blogger: TEABAGHDAD's blog
No its a mug bet. Horse is massively over hyped.
The race it won before the guineas was a farce ran at a crawl that turned into a sprint and made him appear better than he is.
The guineas he was lucky to get 2nd.
Had an advantage being on far side otherwise austalia would have beat him.
Rolling thunder drifted across the track and still comfortably beat him.
Was also trained to peak in the guineas and isnt proven at ascot.
Likely to run as flat as a pancake imo
No its a mug bet. Horse is massively over hyped.
The race it won before the guineas was a farce ran at a crawl that turned into a sprint and made him appear better than he is.
The guineas he was lucky to get 2nd.
Had an advantage being on far side otherwise austalia would have beat him.
Rolling thunder drifted across the track and still comfortably beat him.
Was also trained to peak in the guineas and isnt proven at ascot.
Likely to run as flat as a pancake imo
Odds-on shot wins, wow
I did find the change of tactics from the Hannon firm pretty weird.
Good winner, no doubt. Looks an impressive crop of 3yo.
I did find the change of tactics from the Hannon firm pretty weird.
Good winner, no doubt. Looks an impressive crop of 3yo.
cider, funny comment as many don't win. Also many so called brains on this thread said it would not win.
Thanks paul as you convinced me to have a much bigger bet than normal.
Thanks paul as you convinced me to have a much bigger bet than normal.
TBFB, i'm curious what Paul said that convinced you to have a bigger bet. Was there anything significant in the original post that wasn't known already ? It wasn't exactly difficult to select was it ?
Cost me over £1500 not winning the guineas, the only loser on my classic yankee, oh well, he proved that run all wrong.
Glossy 16 Jun 14 23:01
I can't have it that Night Of Thunder is as good a horse as Kingman. I think that Guineas win was more than a tad fortunate and would go the other way more often than not if re-run. I think we'll see Kingman confirm this to be the case tomorrow as he routs this bunch.
Dat'll do Kingman. Dat'll do.
I can't have it that Night Of Thunder is as good a horse as Kingman. I think that Guineas win was more than a tad fortunate and would go the other way more often than not if re-run. I think we'll see Kingman confirm this to be the case tomorrow as he routs this bunch.
Dat'll do Kingman. Dat'll do.
I must admit that I thought Kingman was over-hyped on the formbook and I couldn't really see a valid reason why he was beaten at Newmarket, even though it was a class renewal.
That said, Gosden's unwavering ebullience has been uncharacteristic of him as he's not one to go overboard.
I left the race alone for betting purposes but I wouldn't have been the slightest bit surprised to have seen Night Of Thunder confirm the Guineas form - there was no doubt about who was the best horse today and if they meet again, I'd like to see the Hannon colt make the final challenge as he quickened impressively in the Guineas and he's definitely no mug - a better than average Classic winner despite his huge price.
On today's evidence (and The Curragh) it's likely that Kingman is a very good horse that could be hitting a 130+ rating soon, and that figure could still be underestimating his capabilities.
Anyone think he could be pushing nearer the 135 (official) mark?
That said, Gosden's unwavering ebullience has been uncharacteristic of him as he's not one to go overboard.
I left the race alone for betting purposes but I wouldn't have been the slightest bit surprised to have seen Night Of Thunder confirm the Guineas form - there was no doubt about who was the best horse today and if they meet again, I'd like to see the Hannon colt make the final challenge as he quickened impressively in the Guineas and he's definitely no mug - a better than average Classic winner despite his huge price.
On today's evidence (and The Curragh) it's likely that Kingman is a very good horse that could be hitting a 130+ rating soon, and that figure could still be underestimating his capabilities.
Anyone think he could be pushing nearer the 135 (official) mark?
the irish form was there,+ausralia won the derby,thats classic form, a pro bet.
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