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I for one believe it is. Ascot will suit and with ground conditions perfect looks to be a lump on wager. As discussed on numerous occasions thought the horse was unlucky in the Guineas when things did not pan out ideally for him, but I have no doubt at all he will reverse the form with Night of Thunder.....plus nothing else in the race can possibly get near him.
Family silver already despatched to my nearest bookmaker!
Family silver already despatched to my nearest bookmaker!
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Replies: 109
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Bookies race, lay those two shorties all day long and hope something like War Command chins em both
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No its a mug bet. Horse is massively over hyped.
The race it won before the guineas was a farce ran at a crawl that turned into a sprint and made him appear better than he is. The guineas he was lucky to get 2nd. Had an advantage being on far side otherwise austalia would have beat him. Rolling thunder drifted across the track and still comfortably beat him. Was also trained to peak in the guineas and isnt proven at ascot. Likely to run as flat as a pancake imo |
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Tea......stop sitting on the fence for once.
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Too many ifs and buts for me to lump on him.
At the end of the day NOT beat him fair and square and its complete guesswork to be confident that wasnt the right result on the formbook as NOT is still very unexposed. War Command could still improve significantly as well. A definite no bet race for me... will just watch and enjoy. |
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paul...........thought night of thunder beat kingman on merit last time..........NOT loved soft ground last year...........the time in ireland was very poor.........N O TH the value
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Paul, Numb nuts Tea,regularly proves on here what he knows about the game would fit on the back of a stamp. You should have every confidence in your bet now he has given it the thumbs down
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No it's not a good think but that doesn't mean it can't still win but I can't have that it was unlucky in the 2000gns and the basis for that seems to be that they split into two groups, yet the winner raced for much of the race in the same group as Kingman and then still won despite drifting across to the other side of the track.
On previous form there's no reason why Kingman should reverse but horses can still improve again with time and reverse form later on in the season, but the mile seemed to suit Night of Thunder better than the 7f the time before and Ascot is a stiff mile. Kingman is a very good horse though and way above average and it's looking like this season's 2000gns was a very good one too. |
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ima.....i like NOT but i would be worried about the lack of pace tomoro
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thinks it just gets the mile tired at newmarket
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Nailed on cert if ever there was such a thing. In my opinion, of course.
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Yeah that's always a possibility portmanpark and especially in a small field where it could be tactical and develop into a sprint but Ascot's straight is long and uphill and there will be plenty of time for anything to kick from there and whilst I'm not suggesting the other Hannon runner is a pacemaker or anything, they might think if they couldn't beat the first 2 in the guineas one way then another type of ride might be the plan.
I think the horse stayed the mile well enough at Newmarket bigmart and certainly did at Curragh and so I wouldn't use that as an excuse if beaten this time. |
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Not unlucky in the 2000 Gns, but it was a good field and hopefully firm is not in the going description. Toormore can make the pace. A good turn of foot. Stays a mile well enough and could be one of the best milers in recent years (Frankel aside) if he wins impressively tomorrow. Personally I think he does, although is not a certainty by any means, that's why it's even money, but he will do for me.
GB / Ascot 17th Jun / 16:25 1m Grp1 Kingman Back 38330196244 16-Jun-14 17:40 2.06 600.00 2.06 16-Jun-14 18:04 |
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curragh is an easier course than newmarket Ima . he is a good horse but no world beater !
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paul the b.....longtime no speak..hope you are well
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good luck Andrew , hope it wins for you
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Think Doyle went a little early at HQ and if he gets it right 2mrw as at The Curragh, we cud well see a very smart performance from an exceptional talent.
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There will be some who will give you an argument on whether Curragh is easier than Newmarket bigmart or at least will suggest it's not significantly easier anyway but to win a classic over a mile by 5L on ground described as Soft To Heavy doesn't really suggest a non-stayer I wouldn't have thought. Just for good measure too and because of the ground conditions and how it slopes towards the rail coming off the bend they all tacked over to the far side rail instead of taking the bend tight and Kingman would have covered more ground than previous winners taking the shorter route.
Agree that the horse is no world beater but do think it's very very good though and think that applies to the first 3 home at Newmarket and possibly first 4 if you include Shifting Power and that was the horse finishing 5L behind Kingman at Curragh and was around half of that distance behind it at Newmarket. |
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Newmarket 1 mile standard time 1 min 35.1 seconds
Curragh 1 mile standard time 1 min 36.5 seconds I would therefore suggest that the Curragh is a stiffer test than Newmarket. Ascot 1 mile standard time 1 min 39.8 seconds.Another step up on stamina required. I respect all the top four`s chances and would love to see War Command win a thriller but the ground could be against him. |
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kingsman has a lot off speed in his pedigree ,with main rival on paper night of thunder , having a bit more stamina , if the race was run over 7f kingsman wd beat it doing handstands ,if its was over 1.1m night off thunder wins every time , but this miles makes it much closer ,i have no doupt kingsman is the better animal , if its a slow pace just tell your bookmaker to pay out after a furlong , if he uses toolmoor as a pace maker cd be very close if its a scorching gallop , night off thunder is a fresher horse , if you put me on the spot i wd say kingsman will win , r/fc safe option not original but looks a banker f/c to me
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FELTFAIR
i hear you but i still think newmarket is a stiffer track imo , these ave times , you can bet your bott doller its soft or heavy twice as much as curragh compaired to newmarket , yes i agree Ascot is stiffer than the other 2 tracks deffo hannon knows the only way he has a chance off beating kingsman is to set a scorching pace , try run the sting out off it ! |
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Thanks Bigmart, if he doesn't win, i will have to rely on Perfect Heart in the following race
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Andrew your are deffo on the best horse , you don!t want a scorching gallop ,were his stamina cd be tested to the max , most think he improved at curragh ! stable going well .all the best sir !
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War Command will mug the two favourites
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what makes you think that Fela kuti
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I was a Toormore fan before the Guineas and can forgive that run. Just about four lengths behind that day so not a "bad" effort. I firmly believe that was not his true form and am more inclined to believe the form of his previous run at HQ . That was run in a faster time than the 2000 and on slower ground. Ryan Moore aboard again. Wouldn't be the first time he has gone in on the second string!!!
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I think Kingman is a good thing. I know War Command won the Coventry on this track but the form of that race hasn't really worked out to justify backing him at this level. The track should suit Kingman and I can only see him relishing the lively ground. I think this could be the race that makes him a star.
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For me it will be decided by the ground .Slower ground will suit Kingman
2 11x21 Night Of Thunder 1 55.5 47.5 1 1x121 Kingman 7 54.5 57.5 5 11x17 Toormore 5 52.5 0.0 6 311x9 War Command 6 52.5 0.0 3 131x0 Outstrip 2 49 0.0 4 3x11 Prince Of All 3 45.5 0.0 7 23x1 Yuften 4 40.5 0.0 |
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I can't have it that Night Of Thunder is as good a horse as Kingman. I think that Guineas win was more than a tad fortunate and would go the other way more often than not if re-run. I think we'll see Kingman confirm this to be the case tomorrow as he routs this bunch.
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At the odds, Night Of Thunder is a no-brainer. Could his form have worked out any better? Had a nice break whereas Kingman had two tough races back to back and isn't a hardy horse.
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the r/fc is the bet ev money nap off the day , ps what you say cider makes perfect sense to me , really think the race result will depend on the pace off the race night off thunder should stay 1.2 miles !
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Kingman wont be in the top 2.
If he can get 3rd here then he has done well. |
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Just out of interest Glossy, what was it that you thought was fortunate about Night of Thunder's guineas win?
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I think that Kingman is all about the ground and that if there is `firm` in there then there is a chance he keeps a little bit back for himself.
At Newbury in the Greenham you saw the real deal with Kingman letting himself down on the good ground. At Newmarket in the 2000G i`m not sure the horse was as comfortable, not by much but it made the difference. At the Curragh, well he sluiced through the soft conditions. Good/soft at Ascot is perfect. I can`t see him beat. |
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Night Of Thunder won fair and square, nothing flukey or lucky about it.The one lesson you learn repeatedly in horse racing is ,BELIEVE the form book. Night Of Thunder WINs the rematch nae bother at aw.....true price 1.5......lump on...
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Kingman is a lay for me at the price. the layers have 3 running for them.
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Mogambo
I don`t think the form book includes g/s ground regarding the 2000G. Ground is vital for many horses. |
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According to the rp the ground is drying out which will favour Night Of Thunder .He improved past Kingman because of the groend and arguably should be fav considering the amount of ground he covered in the guineas .
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It`s not going to be good/firm on the round course. It`s good/soft at the moment, perhaps good ground can be expected.
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Whatever as Kingman would prefer soft and has to beat Night Of Thunder not the other way around as the betting suggests .
A cracking race whatever the result but think the conditions will suit Night Of Thunder . |