The Greatest Hurdler of all time

Yep agreed, we never will know though I wish training had not evolved to the point where they get them so fit at home AND Champion Hurdle contenders had no option but to run in some handicaps.

can i be sacreligious here..what did istabraq beat in reality?his stable mate theatereworld twice?..

Didnt Night Nurse clash with Comedy and Lanzarote very early on in the 75-76 season and beat them quite easily??

agree with Verbo about making a horses ability easier when they did try Handicaps

Zil. he beat Comedy, Sea Pigeon ( then with GW Richards) and Bishops Pawn in the 75 Fighting Fifth.

Not to be compared with any other, as I stated earlier comparisons are futile, but as he hasn't been mentioned so far, triple winning Sir Ken should not be omitted.

And have just checked - previous to the Fighting Fifth Night Nurse won the William Hill hurdle at Newbury the month before where a ' backward looking' Lanzarote finished fourth.

Istabraq was better than Hurricane Fly and Big Bucks has an excellent record also. Harchibald my arrse

We can argue all day to who is the best but it is who is best on the day.Even over the years when they have met some are nearing the end of their careers and just past their peak.I will agree that Golden Cygnet would have been one hell of a horse.

Whats the point of asking what did istabraq beat?

The horse almost all of his races inc 3 champion hurdles!

Find a new sport imo

*won

ilikewavingatbuses 29 Dec 13 19:55 
keep hearing how the fly beats dross in Ireland yet not one English horse will dare cross the sea to challange him in these egg and spoon races?

Not everyone thinks those race were against dross (although some can be a bit uncompetitive) but a few English horses have gone over and faced Hurricane Fly in Ireland and there probably would be more but for the timing of the races falling when they do and clashing with or being too close to key English races and meetings.

excuse my stoopidity but do race times not come into this?

Peaty Sandy always

ruby,13/14 rides,on the fly ,best stat on the planet.

STARTED
I think trying to compare race times from previous years for the champion hurdle would be like platting sawdust bearing in mind changes in course configuration (i think 1981) they stopped going round the top bend changes in drainage rail configuration etc. Plus the fact on the opening(champion) day of the festival you just couldnt trust the going description given by the COC.

Comparisons to Usain bolt are farcical. You can use the timing of a 100 sprint to work out the best ever. The whole aim is to run as fast as you can for 100m.

With horse racing you don't race the clock but the opposition.

Also, regarding times - hurdles and fences used to be vertical - they stood upright. These days they are typically laid down at around 45 degrees, away from the horses, making them much easier to jump at racing speed without losing momentum. (The Canal Turn 'fence' at Aintree was laid down at about 70 degrees to the vertical at the Becher meeting this season - it's only 1 step away from being flat on the ground).

ged, would I be right in thinking that Persian War was not the best jumper of a hurdle or is my memory playing tricks?

I think he was a good one (though I don't say that from my own visual memory, as I was too young then to notice such things), but Major Rose was a favourite of mine at the time, and Persian War beat him into 2nd in one of his CH wins, and I remember the commentator saying that Persian War was a 'more natural' jumper of a hurdle than his regular rival. Another bit of evidence would be that when he ran on the flat at Newbury (whilst he was the reigning Champion Hurdler), he ran in a handicap carrying about 7-10, with star apprentice P Eddery claiming 3, went off fav, and got stuffed, suggesting he needed the hurdles to shine. He was considered best on proper soft ground.

One reason for expecting older hurdlers to have been better, or at least for there to be more competition around the top, is that before all-weather racing, there'd have been more good ex-Flat horses taking up the winter game.

Mention should also be made of Trespasser. He was around in the early 1920s, before the Champion Hurdle existed. Then, by far the most important race over hurdles was the Imperial Cup at Sandown, a handicap. Trespasser won it 3 years in succession - as a 4yo carrying 12-0, and as a 5 and 6yo carrying 12-7 both times. He only had 6 races over hurdles, and won them all, including the County Hurdle, also as a 4yo, carrying 11-9.

Remember Major Rose ged, was he trained by Ryan Price?

The one I will always wonder about in terms of potential is Browne's Gazette. Prior to the farce in the Champion Hurdle he looked like the best hurdler by some margin .

sparrow - yes. He had a few with 'Rose' in the name. Soldier Rose was another. Major Rose won the Chester Cup and Cesarewitch in 1968, being either 2nd or 3rd top weight in each. He probably would have been better at 3 miles over hurdles, but there was no money then in those races, so he went for the Champion Hurdle and Schweppes races instead. Got beat by Persian War in both. Price could train all sorts - fast 2yos, champion sprinters, classic winners, top hurdlers and staying chasers. He won the Cesarewitch 4 times I think, and used to keep them in a field years after they'd retired. Bought young jumpers from France.

Birds Nest A Turnell, always on the bridle, sometimes never found a lot on the run in

ged, I sometimes think Ryan Price failed to get the full credit his skills deserved as the gambling stable tag weighed heavy at times. He was as you say versatile and a visionary, the word genious would not be out of place imo.

Thanks ged, I backed Major Rose when he won the Cesarewitch. I have just been reading up on Persian War and was reminded of his crazy owner. After what that horse was put through it's a wonder he won 1 champion Hurdle let alone 3.

deadbrain59 30 Dec 13 09:22 
ruby,13/14 rides,on the fly ,best stat on the planet.

Paul Townend has a pretty decent record on it too something like 6 out of 7 or  out of 8 which suggests it's more about the horse than the jockeys, although that's obviously not to say that Ruby Walsh isn't a top class jockey or that Townend isn't decent either.

quantize 30 Dec 13 10:01 
Comparisons to Usain bolt are farcical. You can use the timing of a 100 sprint to work out the best ever. The whole aim is to run as fast as you can for 100m.

With horse racing you don't race the clock but the opposition.

I personally was actually using the fact that he has 6 Olympic golds and 8 World Championship golds to suggest he was the best ever rather than times and also the amount of races he wins and the few times he is beaten, despite maybe not having the greatest opponents around at the moment compared to other eras.

You can use the timing of a 100 sprint to work out the best ever.

No you can't .....newly built tracks are much faster than in previous eras,  that is why going under 10 seconds is commonplace now . One athlete doing it may be down to sheer ability , the fact they all run faster than Carl Lewis for example is farcical.

Istabraq started favourite for every hurdle race he contested in ,  apart from its first .

Means nothing but still a nice stat .

Hard to compare horses over the years but Persian War, Bula, Comedy of Errors, See You Then, Istabraq and Hurricane Fly are all well above average winners of the Champion Hurdle while Baracouda, Inglis Drever and Big Bucks were/are still the dominant stayers of my lifetime.

Sageform - I'd have Night Nurse on BOTH of your lists

RELKEEL was my fav and could have been the best barring disabiltiy

interesting fred
I've long been of the opinion that the champion hurdler is the best horse in training, the winter game at least.

Can't believe that the Fly's rating is stuck in the mid 170s while any old donkey that wins the gold cup gets rated better than 3 time winner Best Mate.

The 2m hurdling division is always the strongest in national hunt as so many novices come through every year.

For me the Fly is the best horse in training. Big Bucks? Puh-leez!

Erica Roe.

Sofia she was very good that day at Twickers but reckon she is gone over the top now - some top though

Ran a bit free at Twickers but high knee action made her a natural fast hurdler.

Montelado was a match for any hurdler i've seen, but like most of us he had his problems.

Is Montelado STILL the only horse to win two consecutive races at the Cheltenham Festival?

If my memory serves me right See You Then did not appear until February when winning his 3rd Champion Hurdle?

An exceptional horse.

relkeel was  2m+ horse imo ,bestmate was lucky and best of a bad bunch imo  ,all narrow victories but victories all the same .

granville again would have won twice  for falling at the top of the hill and royal gait was a class horse ,as was kribensis ,both grd1 winners on the level ,horses like flakey dove ,make a stand ,rooster booster were all grafters ,prob just high class hcpers but that makes their victories all the sweeter imo

hardy eustace was as tough as teak imo .

istabraq just had summit ,could not quite put the finger on it but that horse seemed to do it so very very  easy ,never seen the likes .

there was a really good pitman horse that died on course, that would have gone to the top,

probably as a chaser, can remember if he was a 2 miler over hurdles,  Mr Mogul, i think was the name?.

Big Buck's

Mighty Mogul aberdonia

thanks steamship.

think it was going to the top?

Only seen one mention of GREATEST HURDLER OF ALL TIME
NIGHT NURSE GAVE MONKSFIELD 6Lbs IN the then TEMPLEGATE HURDLE AT AINTREE AND DEAD HEATED
RATING I BELIEVE OF 184? Don't think it's ever been matched

It's hard enough trying to work out what will win this years race without looking back over past winners for who is the best.
I think it depends on the age you are when you get into it(Sea Pigeon, Night Nurse, Mionksfield,Birds Nest,Kybo) if you followed the horse and won on it.

Those Champion Hdls of the late 70's did look great.

Patsy - NIGHT NURSE - That's why Timeform had him top rated 182 for BOTH best 2 mile hurdler and best staying hurdler in the SAME SEASON. A rating never exceeded before or since for a hurdler.  Think the Templegate was 2m 5f+ in those days.

Thats the third time I've mentioned him

Timeform are a great organisation and all that but their ratings are far from bomb-proof and they appear to come up with a new "greatest ever" a bit too often for my liking.

Hurricane Fly is the best IMO.

When he has an injury free season he stuffs everything out of sight, if he been luckier with injury earlier on he could have won 4 or 5 times at the Festival already, rather than 2 wins and a third (the latter when having interrupted season, and falling foul to Overturn/RockonRuby front-running tactics being allowed too much rope.

This season he wins his 3rd Champion Hurdle, against a strong 2nd season hurdle division and therefore rockets higher into everyones thoughts as a great.

Brown Jack and sir Ken should be remembered.

gl with d jacobs imo,ive had a nibble on ruby ,ch hrdle 4.5.

I am not sure all these group events in Ireland do justice too the class?

Arklearkle - I don't totally disagree about Timeform, but they haven't rated a hurdler higher or "greater" than Night Nurse in 76/77.

nb - after calm reflection, not sure what Big Bucks very best T rating as a staying hurdler has been

Brave Inca at his best would push these two to their limits

Istabraq.

ima ruby grade1 wins,125+

Ernie - Which two?  Sublimity and Flakey Dove

Brave Inca was a very good horse , prob unlikely to beat Istabraq especially but would on his day put it up to them. Theres not many out there who could do that.

Katchit , Punjabi , Hors La Loi III , Collier Bay......not all been superstars have they ?

GAY GEORGE the best not to win the Champion Hurdle and virtually unbeatable on firm ground. Never seen a horse jump a hurdle as quick in my life. RIP.

Keep Your Bowels Open....

If I remember rightly aberdonia Mighty Mogul was moved to David Nicholson where it had a few wins before breaking down and was pulled up in its final start. I don't think the owners rated Mark Pitman as a jockey so moved all of their horses away.

deadbrain59 30 Dec 13 20:43 
ima ruby grade1 wins,125+

Yep seems about right deadbrain59 but wonder how many he's been beaten in?

ap,70+, grade 1 wins.wonder how many he wasbtn in,thats a negative,d jacobs about 9 grade 1s,,wonder how many he was btn on .

Why do people insist on calling him Jacobs, when they know full well that is not his name?

I see that Collier Bay is dismissed as a poor winner of the CH and it is true that he only had one good season. On that one day though he was very very good. Alderbrook was considered the banker of the meeting but CB jumped brilliantly and used Mysilv as a pacemaker to the top of the hill before just destroying the field with Alderbrook the only one within 2.5 lengths and Pridwell and Danoli 6 lengths and more further back. He remains my biggest ever win on a horse race in money terms so I have a soft spot for him.

Have seen most of the hurdlers mentioned in this thread in the flesh & have to admit I find it hard to call one over the other; Comedy Of Errors, Night Nurse, Monksfield, Istabraq, Hurricane Fly - all brilliant on their day. Sea Pidgeon was a personal fav but probably fell short of being considered best.

Golden Cygnet may well have topped the lot had he not been killed.

none of them would have gotten See You Then off the bridle until half-way up the Cheltenham run-in

BULA
MONKSFIELD
LANZAROTE
COMEDY OF ERRORS
POLLARDSTOWN
BIRDS NEST
ISTABRAQ
PENDIL
CAPTAIN CHRISTY
KILLINEY
SEA PIDGEON
NIGHT NURSE
SEE YOU THEN
EASBY ABBEY

Hurricane Fly, the Grade 1 races won and the date of their inauguration.

Morgiana Hurdle Grade 1 2006  (2)
Rabobank Hurdle Grade 1  1999  (2)
Festival Hurdle Grade 1 2002 (2)
Hattons Grace Hurdle Grade 1 1994. (1)
Ryanair Hurdle Grde 1. New. (3)
Irish Champion Hurdle (3)
Champion Novice Hurdle (2) 1996

The last champion hurdler to win the Irish Champion Hurdle since the 60's was Dawn Run in 1984 so I don't see how important a race it was then to the 70's Champion Hurdlers.   

That accounts for at least 15 of Hurricane Fly's Grade 1 wins and shows the races weren't available for the great hurdlers of the past. A bit of perspective required by the racing press as usual.

brigust, Collier Bay won the Irish Champion before his CH win in 1996.

I did say the '70s Sage.

I mean't anything before Dawn Run.

Gay George the best not to win Champion Hurdle????
No Contest
Birds Nest

For me Night Nurse @ his peak was the best ive seen a superb jumper of a hurdle quick and efficient beating subsequent dual champions Monksfield and Sea Pigeon(who for  likeability nothing will match)

I would choose Big Bucks as the best hurdler never to win the CH.

Sage I think the Stayers is a weak uncompetitive ace with generally only one or two possible winners.
Would Nichols have stayed chasing with him if he didn't stable Denman and Kauto Star at the same time I wonder.

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

Bula.

This one had a blistering turn of foot. That's not an opinion or a rating. That's a fact.

If he came to the final flight still on the bridle it was all over.

That's why I'd make him my greatest.

Useless fact of the day

Bula was a beaten fav in ALL of the following races

Champion Hurdle, Gold Cup, Champion Chase and King George........

Bula was a great horse.

Gay George, Golden Cygnet and Noddy`s Ryde - three great hurdlers that met a terrible ending. RIP

not one mention of sir ken....

alleged22, see posts 29/12/13 10:06 pm and 30/12/13 8:31 pm and then as a New Year present to yourself, make an appointment at Specsavers...!

Northern Lad should have the final say on who the greatest is.

I will when I decipher the wheat from the chaff corkie boy

It was this thread that inspired my thread.

The Greatest Hurdler of all time

"Hurricane Fly

It is indisputable"

No disrespect but who is the greatest hurdler of all time can only be deduced by putting all the greatest on the table and picking through their careers.

I think most of us would accept that to be the greatest hurdler you have to win the Champion Hurdle, Chaser (staying) Gold Cup. Chaser 2m speed Champion.

These races are all at level weights so if you just fall into a period were you are clearly the best you can win these major prizes for several years.

Possibly many of these champions had they met each other would have had a few lengths between them at their peak, but how many of them could also win the Irish & French equivalents in the same season? And show enough versatility to be capable of going on to win a Gold Cup.

Dawn Run.

Personally I think Persian War was the best I've seen.There have been a few others that weren't too shabby including the often underrated Night Nurse.Its a shame but you cannot bring the "old" champs back to face the new(er) ones so some questions will never be answered.Happy New Year all

Ed Moses

deadbrain59 31 Dec 13 08:00 
ap,70+, grade 1 wins.wonder how many he wasbtn in,thats a negative,d jacobs about 9 grade 1s, wonder how many he was btn on .

Nobody can knock Ruby Walsh's record in Grade 1 races and they would be daft to if trying but it's still far more about the horses than jockeys, as shown when plenty of them have had success in Walsh's absences when replacing him. I would also suggest that there are several other jockeys who could have ridden the Nicholls and Mullins horses for a decade and more and have had a similar level of success as Walsh too.

Daryl Jacob is a few years younger than Walsh, hasn't been as established for as long and only just starting to get on some decent horses on a regular basis so you aren't exactly comparing like with like when looking at their numbers. It might also be worth tallying up Jacob's numbers in around 4-5 years time when he's the same age as Walsh is now and then making any comparisons.

sparrow 31 Dec 13 08:05 
Why do people insist on calling him Jacobs, when they know full well that is not his name?

Probably because unfortunately they don't.

Persian War,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_War_(horse),Brigust were you present wnen Dick had persian war in younger days?

I like these threads....nice to see racing fans offering an opinion,no matter how misguided it may be... My own personal top five would be:

See you Then.........Istabraq.......Persian War......Night Nurse........Sea Pigeon.

I would go for Istabraq. Would have won four CH without those blasted sheep!

Persian War for me.As with Arkle,won handicaps conceding lots of weight.Todays top Chasers and Hurdlers have it too easy.

Yep, Persian War.

Golden Cygnet had all the attributes to be the best.

Indisputable

Sea Pigeon was a magical horse

Farewell to the greatest. Enjoy the pipe and slippers buddy

Persian War was undoubtedly the bravest hurdler I've seen race and it is such a shame he was owned by the dreadful Alper who seemed to care so little for the horse's welfare. Not only did he win the 3 champion hurdles against top opposition, but his victory under top weight at Newbury really underlines what a magnificent hurdler he was.

Golden Cygnet for me - To win the Supreme Novices as he did was special and at Ayr he was cantering over Sea Pigeon when he fell. How much better would the Golden Age of hurdling have been if he had been allowed to make his contribution?  Perhaps the biggest if only in racing history.

Golden Cygnet's claim rests on the visual memory of him cruising alongside Sea Pigeon in the Scottish Champion Hurdle - admittedly he'd also looked terrific in the Supreme Novices ( jockey on the runner up Western Rose, the late John Burke, said something similar to ' I thought I was gonna win them all of a sudden this horse came upside looking as if he had just joined in.He was pulling so hard there was blood..') but so have many others. He might have been the best ever but the evidence is so limited I'd rather have it from those doing it regularly, Night Nurse, Monksfield, Sea Pigeon -I suppose you could be sceptical and question whether they were overrated considering in reality how unlikely it would be for three all times greats to be around at the same time.Anyway, I'll stick with them and not just because I seen all three race in the flesh plenty of times - there is plenty of substantial form to support them.

Reg See You Then,  hard to assess as we never saw too much of him but he was so difficult to train. In his final CH victory the horse he beat Flatterer, is widely regarded as the best US National Hunt horse ever. As they were coming back off the course some character was standing unnoticed amongst the racegoers, looking genuinely happy, clapping, smiling and shouting Bo***cks - it was Bernard Manning !