The race that helped close the Sporting Life

5th      Top Cees 5/1F     5-8-9      Mrs J R Ramsden 71 54 75 Kieren Fallon
     
Slowly into stride, held up, switched right well over 1f out, stayed on inside final furlong, never placed to challenge.
Stewards officially told:
Jockey told to hold horse up to get the trip, but was unable to make a late run as the gaps did not appear
-----------------

The Nosebanded horse - in the middle of the second group, a furlong, or so, from home.
Red, Black Spots - number 12.

The ride at Musselburgh over Hurdles made that one look like it was trying for its life at Newmarket!

Ironically the gaps did appear and almost ruined things for him and he previous to that could have pulled around runners from further out anyway but he decided to take the horse to the inside to ensure he didn't get a run and even then the gaps started to reappear.

The slaps were due to him knowing that he could only get as close up as possible to the ones in front and go no further and could have achieved that without them anyway but still made it look like he was trying.

The 'giveaway' being - him almost 'stood up in the stirrups' - from the furlong and a half, to half a furlong, from home.

Then we get the most popular winner ever of the Chester Cup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIAtCfRLFgk

- and next time out ....

WINS the CHESTER Cup - "to a mixed reception."

"There's going to be some ructions now, I can tell you," - says G Goode in commentary.

I could get over em pulling a stroke, but to sue showed the type of disgraceful people they were.

Jolly Jack Ramsden,what a loveable character (I don't think).

What it does go to show,Saddo,is how it is nearly impossible to prove a "not off" on camera footage alone.
A Point a good few of the "certifiables on here never take into account when screaming "Foul".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/60384.stm

Talk about having your cake and eating it, vile stuff.

Thommo

And might also explain why those who are labelled the gravy train brigade by many on here aren't too keen to "get off the fence" as urged by those very same people and state that a ride was dodgy and a horse was pulled. It's all well and good some potless forum poster making the claim after losing 2 quid on here but a different thing entirely for someone in the media with a few bob and representing their employer saying the same thing.

As for Top Cee's connections suing, they really had no choice after the Sporting Life editorial went to print.

The only time I can remember any TV Pundit sticking his neck out was Francombe many years ago when showed footage of young Billie Worthington's ride on Wild Power at Taunton ( a more hideous Stop has never been seen,imo).
I was waiting for Francombe to offer some excuse when he stated,"he stopped It,simple"!

It won at some big prices did Top Cees and won at Cheltenham.

If I remember correctly , there was almost silence in the winner's enclosure at Cheltenham after that day .

Sorry; after that race .

I'd forgotten how shocking the camera work was back then. The RP used to be full of letters complaining about close ups.
Obviously the message got home eventually.

That's the nature of the beast Handicaps that is.

The only time I can remember any TV Pundit sticking his neck out was Francombe many years ago when showed footage of young Billie Worthington's ride on Wild Power

Francome also said "he jumped off" re Ice Saint.

He also said about the Irish race with the Charles Byrnes twosome, that the jockey on the 2nd "only had to cough to make it go past the other one"

I was at Chester the day it won, crowd started booing in the last furlong, I hadn't a clue why!

Amazingly G.GOODE never even spotted Top Cees for the last 3 furs ....

strange the day of the Newmarket race ramsden had backed top cees in a multiple I don't think he thought it was going to be a non trier

To be fair to Graham Goode if he was commentating off a monitor he woudn't have seen it. Thank God we don't have camera work like that anymore.

Thank the big yogi in the sky we don´t have carp commentaries like that any more. By today´s standards Goode in particular and even O´Sullevan are terrible.

heressomepratsonhere     18 Nov 13 16:32 

strange the day of the Newmarket race ramsden had backed top cees in a multiple I don't think he thought it was going to be a non trier
----------

Can you substantiate that statement? -

- and confirm the other horse(s)

Linda Ramsden had only one other runner, that day -

Fame Again - it finished 9th of 11.

You gotta be joking,we've had to put up with aussie jim for the last 6 or 7 years,prior to his retirement.he was abysmal,the gravy train means that they carry on far too long.

If Jolly Jack backed Top Cees at Newmarket I will ride naked around Aintree,someprat!

you´re right barrowboy, I forgot about him...and Hunty and Thompson.

Just a mixed bag of observations here but if Jack Ramsden did include Top Cees in any multiple bets then there's nothing saying they all had to be trained by his wife. He might also have done bets from doubles plus that still made a profit regardless if Top Cees won or not or might even have been willing to take a loss on the day in the short term to make a profit in the long run next time.

My main observation though is Derek Thompson's claim that Kieren Fallon told he that Ramsden had told him in the paddock to stop the horse. I don't know about you but wouldn't you think if a jockey was under orders to stop one that he would be hearing about it a bit earlier than at the time he was about to be legged up for the ride?

50p yankee so he could say he backed it imo.

It was also said they'd missed the price ima , guys who miss the price tend to want to teach the takers a lesson....

Was at Pontefract one day when one of Linda Ramsdens horses was withdrawn by the vet (there had been money for it in the morning)...She went nuts, she was shouting at the vet and then slammed her handbag down on the floor on the shute near the winning post.......was a mega stropp

It was also said they'd missed the price ima , guys who miss the price tend to want to teach the takers a lesson....

oh yes dont they just.

It was also said they'd missed the price ima , guys who miss the price tend to want to teach the takers a lesson....

oh yes dont they just.

ima_mazed

I have checked the Results for ALL races that day.

Racing took place at just Newmarket, Wetherby, and Fairyhouse.

There were No Winners who landed gambles - nor any with potential 'Jack-type'links to winners .... unless he had smashed into 7/4 Fav Lake Coniston, in the Abernant ......

Like everybody else.

onlooker he did not just back his own horses at the time he was backing plenty of horses each day at the bigger meetings the morning of that day top cees was in a bet

Someprat,
So,Fellon "stops" Top Cees at Newmarket against Jolly Jack's wishes and he keeps the ride at Chester?
You have either made it up or have been told a utter tosh.
End of debate.

ok

What if the infamous Top Cees Swaffham run happened say this year. Does anyone think the BHA would have been interested?

Proving a "Not Off" is extremely difficult.
Members of the public on Jury Service very rarely bring in a guilty verdict (even in the face of overwhelming evidence).

workrider 18 Nov 13 18:33 
It was also said they'd missed the price ima , guys who miss the price tend to want to teach the takers a lesson....

That is only Derek Thompson's version of events though workrider, the same bloke who got done by the Advertising Standards people when he claimed he was only going to such and such a meeting to back such and such a horse when in fact he was going there to do the commentary. Or the same bloke who so craves attention that he dressed up as a jester when Gotchaed on Noel's Houuseparty and the same bloke who tends to be a bit prone to over egging the pudding at times too. If you were a jockey would you admit to him of all people of stopping one?

It's also stated that he was supposedly reluctant to testify and was subpoenaed to appear at court but exactly how would anyone have known this conversation was supposed to have happened in the first place for him to have been able to be brought to court anyway? He's just an attention seeker and I remember once when Jason Weaver rode a winner and Thompson interviewed him just before it was due to be finalised that he would leave Luca Cumani for Mark Johnston and Thompson put him on the spot there and then by asking him about the rumours, to which Weaver replied prickly why was he asking him those kind of questions. Obvious a few loose ends needed tying up first but he just wanted to act all "look at me, I'm breaking the story here before anyone else" as if it was a big deal anyway.

Alistair Down wrote that Sporting Life article on The Top Cees ride by the way and not only is he a colleague of Thompson's but there's a certain irony in people calling him a fence sitter and not pulling jockeys and trainers for perceived iffy runs.

onlooker 18 Nov 13 18:37 
ima_mazed

I have checked the Results for ALL races that day.

Racing took place at just Newmarket, Wetherby, and Fairyhouse.

There were No Winners who landed gambles - nor any with potential 'Jack-type'links to winners .... unless he had smashed into 7/4 Fav Lake Coniston, in the Abernant ......

Like everybody else.

Like I said previously onlooker, the other horses might not have had to be connected to him, nor would they particularly have to be gamble on if it was a double or more and he might even have been prepared to take a loss on the day as long as he got it back at a later stage.

Some jealous people about methinks. Every man and his dog seemed to have the view that it wasn't trying at Newmarket. Now, if that were true, why would that be? Don't answer that, I know why, but answer this, what was the SP at Chester? And all the experts out there

I fully understand that IMA MAZED66 , BUT IF THEY EVEN THOUGHT THE PRICE WAS GONE AND ACTED ON IT THEN I COULD UNDERSTAND ...Over here in certain yards if the price is taken , you can be assured the horse won't be a live one...

ima_mazed66

I've read a few articles on Jack Ramsden over the years,I understand he did like to place doubles and trebles etc etc ... Was he involved with Colin Webster at the time of the Top Cees incident ?

I'd be very suprised if Jack ever confided with anyone in the media about his betting . I recall listening to John Inverdale on R5 Live at a Cheltenham Festival,(Top Cees had just won) ...  he asked JR if he'd had a bet on the winner and how much he'd had on.The answer was very abrupt.

racingstar is right, it would be nigh on impossible proving a "not off" in a Court of Law to a jury of people who I would guess for the most part wouldn't be racing fans .

I've always maintained that owners & trainers don't run their horses' for punters...  with the Ramsdens it's a FACTOR OF TWO !

efisio.

Some jealous people about methinks. Every man and his dog seemed to have the view that it wasn't trying at Newmarket. Now, if that were true, why would that be? Don't answer that, I know why, but answer this, what was the SP at Chester? And all the experts out there

He went off joint fav at Chester (7-1 I think) but why do you think that the SP at Chester would have had anything in the least to do with Ramsden´s money being down? JR would have got on after Newmarket obviously.

Top Cees was a 'stuffy' horse who was at his best on the flat when having had a recent run within the past 20 days or so. In the spring of 1995 connections decided to target the horse at the Chester cup. It ran in a Doncaster handicap (12 furlongs)at the Lincoln meeting and finished a respectable 6th of 23 under an apprentice. The big race is still 50 days away at this time so another prep race is beneficial and what better race than the Swaffham over 14f (5f short of the Chester Cup trip) which is situated exactly mid point datewise. I'm not entering the debate as to whether Top Cees was trying to win at Newmarket, all I know is that the target was the Chester Cup and the horse was unlikely to be 100% at Newmarket. This is racing, horses have target races and they are trained to try to win certain races and to be cherry ripe on the day. This is the reality of racing and any punter who can't accept it is in the wrong game.
Also, many on here are underestimating Jack Ramsden as a punter/ owner. Top Cees wasn't being trained to land a touch at Chester, he was being trained to land a prestigious handicap and some juicy prize money. Ramsden had more sense than to bet at single figure prices in massive field handicaps and I doubt whether he had an interest at either Newmarket or Chester. Obtaining 10-1 about one that he knew something about in a six runner race was more his cup of tea.
Talk of him betting in multiples couldn't be further from the truth.
This was Jack Ramsden, not Terry Ramsden.

Paulbu,Jack Ramsden's favourite bet was a 2 by 2 by 2 treble,he used to have them almost every day in the flat season,Colin Webster used to put them on with the help of putters on obviously,they had good runs and bad runs like everybody.i'm sure he had plenty of single touches over the years but he did bet in multiples.

ribero1 19 Nov 13 10:06 
Paulbu,Jack Ramsden's favourite bet was a 2 by 2 by 2 treble,he used to have them almost every day in the flat season,Colin Webster used to put them on with the help of putters on obviously,they had good runs and bad runs like everybody.i'm sure he had plenty of single touches over the years but he did bet in multiples.


one on this fred...

Didn't know that Delta,i knew the guys who worked for Colin on course and they used to spend the mornings finding the bets out and then getting on themselves.

He went off joint fav at Chester (7-1 I think) but why do you think that the SP at Chester would have had anything in the least to do with Ramsden´s money being down? JR would have got on after Newmarket obviously.

You miss the point. What I am saying is everybody who believed it was a non-tryer at Newmarket, should have cleaned up at Chester.

Ribero1,you would know far more than myself about the betting antics of Jack Ramsden, but my comment was referring to the previous remark that he had Top Cees in multiple bets on the day of his Newmarket run. Surely a punter who knew how to bet wouldn't have an out of form, bad value, short priced favourite in a competitive big field handicap as part of a multiple bet......would he ?

Do you really think though workrider that Jack Ramsden would have been backing Top Cees on the day itself at Newmarket for him to according to Derek Thompson supposedly have said that they had missed the price? It was also 5/1f on the day at Newmarket which isn't generally too bad price, although I appreciate it might have been better at other times.

I have little idea really of how Ramsden generally punted StevieB but another poster mentioned him having a bet on Top Cees and then others were saying he had no connection with any other runners, or that little else was well backed on the same day but I was just saying that he could still have backed something else in a double or more with Top Cees that he has no connection with or wasn't particular well back on the day.

I think efisio you would have to take into account a lot more than whether Top Cees was a non-trier at Newmarket as to whether you could clean up at Chester, such as the draw, ground, trip as well as punters won't have been in as advantageous a position as Ramsden regarding how the horse had been doing since the Newmarket run.

Know what you are saying Paulbu,tbh I wouldn't know,i was never privy to the information nor sought it,Lawrence colin's clerk used to have the odd bet on a few of them with us.

There is always the possibility that the horse could have won at Newmarket even though the aim may have been to lose. By backing it you are covering the fact that a win would screw up the price next time. To leave it alone and it wins would be like losing twice. It is definitely something I do when I have something in mind for a future race.

Brig,
That would be because you are guessing.
Jolly Jack was most certainly not.

a lot of Ramsdens multiples were determined by the draw,where the pace was and the going rather than the form or if a horse was running well.Big handicaps he could back 3 or 4 in a race singles and have combination forecasts and tricasts,you would be amazed how often they connected.

Racing you may live in a world where stopping a horse is easy but some of us are not that stupid. In fact there may have been a few in the race that didn't want to win. Some things cannot be carried out because circumstances dictate even with the Ramsdens.

You clearly are stupid if you think Top Cees was "trying",Brig.
However,as the football is about to start,goodnight.

That is not what I said and you know it. It is a complete fool who doesn't cover his bases. And I don't  think JR is a fool though you obviously think he could be.

Brigust ,what you are saying is quite possible.You are no fool and neither is Ramsden.

just going back to the bit about the race which closed the Life - i don't think the article Down wrote was a significant factor in the Life closing.

and personally i think Hats off to Jack and Lynda because over the years they were superb

of course not everyone's cup of tea but then winners rarely are, but i think to those close to them, they were and are very staunch

efisio.:What I am saying is everybody who believed it was a non-tryer at Newmarket, should have cleaned up at Chester.

How the fck are punters supposed to divine which day this kind of horse is supposed to win?

The Newmarket race, an £8,000 handicap, was the highest class race Top Cees had ever contested up to that point (except for one attempt at a £33,000 handicap in which it had finished 12th).

Without hindsight, how is it obvious that a £29,000 race next time out, over a longer trip than the horse had ever attempted, was the real target and not a softer affair later on?

racing star

re nov 18th 1811 post at which Aintree fixture can we witness this please ?

It will never have to take place,Jimnast.
If it does,it will not be for the faint hearted.
By the way,a very fair comment by screaming,imo.
Second guessing Jolly Jack was rarely a pathway to eternal riches.

fallon should still be in prison.

racingstar

your not for changing your opinions on this that's fair enough,and by the way I have no idea of what the instructions were in the parade ring,but I do know that the horse was put in an e/w Trixie that morning.

Jimnast,
I have been known in the past to make a few "Spoof" bets in the morning on a "not offer" in order to shorten it.

racingstar

I can accept that was a possibility but for what reason on that occasion ?

To deflect from the real objective,jimnast?

I don't think he needed to bet the horse at Newmarket so chester would be a better price,and as I say he put it in with two others,my own opinion and its only an opinion if the horse did not run on its merits jr had nothing to do with it.

Sorry to labour the point,Jimnast but,I can assure you that if one of mine had been "blocked" by the Jockey on his own back,he would never ride for me again.
Who rode at Chester?

makes you wonder how a guy who clearly was fairly adept at punting was able to walk away from it all - didn't they try training in France? and don't forget they gave us a fairly good lady jockey, the delectable emma...i do remember the stunning silence when top cees won at the festival, although it was a shortish price it seemed no one was cheering for it

racingstar I totally agree with your point there,perhaps jr never felt he did.

Jimnast,
I know Jolly never produced the smartest offspring but,if he did not know the ride at Newmarket was a "stopper" it is as well that he no longer plays (if that is actually the case).

I think the way you can tell for sure that Fallon wasn't giving it his all on the day is that he generally starts to ride his finish from round 3-4f out and builds momentum where he is often the first jockey to start getting busy on his horse, so over the years has won many races where it looked like he came under pressure early and would have no chance of winning. His ride on Top Cees that day saw him barely move on the horse until very late on and only gave it a slap when he knew there was nowhere for the horse to go to respond to it as its run was blocked.

Not that any of that makes it OK but if you felt every jockey should be in prison for giving one an easy time due to a future target being the main aim then there would be nobody left to ride them any more!

Well remember the Morning Line team reviewing the Newmarket race, and if memory serves McGrath and Francome believed it was ''not off!''

the reason the horse was such a good price at chester was because everybody assumed they wouldn't dare win with it there after all the publicity at newmarket where the jockey had to work really hard to stop it winning.

it was generally felt that if the horse hacked up at chester then it would prove conclusively that it was stopped at newmarket. 

it duly hacked up at chester.

A horse with the profile of Top Cees, that is no flat win for two tears, not in the first three during the past eight flat runs with some in much lower class races and doubts about the trip would be expected to go off at 20s plus in an average eighteen runner Chester cup. The layers took no chances and the SP of 8-1 about Top Cees was due entirely to its well documented run last time out in the Swaffham. Any punter, who thinks that 8-1 was a good price that day, shouldn't bet in too many handicaps.

it was a good price if you considered it a winner without a penalty, especially if you saw how easily it was going at newmarket.

Nov 19, 2013 -- 10:28PM, ima_mazed66 wrote:

I think the way you can tell for sure that Fallon wasn't giving it his all on the day is that he generally starts to ride his finish from round 3-4f out and builds momentum where he is often the first jockey to start getting busy on his horse, so over the years has won many races where it looked like he came under pressure early and would have no chance of winning. His ride on Top Cees that day saw him barely move on the horse until very late on and only gave it a slap when he knew there was nowhere for the horse to go to respond to it as its run was blocked.Not that any of that makes it OK but if you felt every jockey should be in prison for giving one an easy time due to a future target being the main aim then there would be nobody left to ride them any more!

that was the most blatant non trier i have ever seen,without the jockey, getting banned,and he should have got prison for pulling Stewart Webster off his horse after the post at Beverley,a horrible, evil piece of **** is Fallon, and always will be.

They are always a good price after they have won

Talking about horses being targetted for a certain race,do any of you lads recall Toby Balding training Neblin to win the Tote Gold Trophy at Newbury ? I'm sure Stan Moore rode it ,beat Scu on Mrs Muck .

The week before ( least I think it was a week ) it had 'run' in another race and finished a running on third

Anyway come the big day ,I listened to a commentary of the race on the radio ..(It could have been Lee McKenzie) .. he wasn't a happy chappy calling Toby's horse home , he kept "referring back " to it's previous run 7 days earlier and saying TB should be dragged before the Newbury  Stewards / Jockey Club !!

Two other high profile cases would be Galway Blaze's prep for the Hennessy and the Cumani horse that prepped at the Dante meeting for the Beesborough

Going a little off topic here but apparently Stewart Webster was a weighing room bully and during that race where Fallon pulled him off his horse he nearly put some young apprentice over the rails and it had a domino effect on Fallon and that's why he did that.

Things then continued back in the weighing room and Fallon can look after himself and Webster supposedly came off worse (I heard Fallon nutted him amongst other things) and he (Webster) later claimed in a New of the World article that he was assaulted by Fallon in an unprovoked attack, which they later had to write an apology over as this wasn't meant to be the case and whilst Fallon freely admitted an altercation took place, he claimed he acted in self defence. The NOTW had to also pay Fallon damages for libel. A biography was later written on Fallon where Webster's claim was repeated and once the book went on sale he again objected to the claim and the publishers had to pull copies off the shelves.

Interesting too that this was around the time that the NOTW were tapping Fallon's phone and trying to set up a sting but they didn't have anything on him as he never took the bait so they had all but given up on the story until his c0ck up on Ballinger Ridge and that's all it ever was. His profile as a jockey was far higher in 2004 and the BR ride than it was for the Top Cees one and at that time he had not even won a classic and barely rode in any big races like the Derby and that didn't mainly come until riding for Cecil, Stoute and O'Brien.

Despite what some people might think, Fallon is quite popular amongst his colleagues and often helped less fortunate jockeys financially/with equipment and so on and the authorities gave Fallon the 6 months ban for pulling Webster off the horse but never really got to the bottom of what really happened back in the weighing room as apparently nobody wanted to speak against Fallon or for Webster.

must have been all forgiven now as Fallon has ridden for his sister [websters] twice in recent years...

cokeup my ass ooh er...what about the texts then ima. everyone who watched that top cees race know it was a non jigger, the question is how many of his rides where/and for what reason.you might ask him that the next time you crawled out of his jacksy.

How did any of these events have something to do with the closure of The Sporting Life ?

That was unnecessary Maxheadroom. Ima put forward a perfect example of what he knows and what he believes backed up by facts. Insulting him for his opinion is not the way to go. If you have any questions you seriously want answered just ask them without abuse. It isn't difficult and you may get an answer.

Verbot, was that Zaralaska? didnt that get a ban on running for around 21 days??

maxheadroom 22 Nov 13 09:35 
cokeup my ass ooh er...what about the texts then ima. everyone who watched that top cees race know it was a non jigger, the question is how many of his rides where/and for what reason.you might ask him that the next time you crawled out of his jacksy.

You're either not very bright maxheadroom or just a mouthy type who likes to shoot off before actually bothering to read what people say, because if you think I'm suggesting there was nothing wrong with the Top Cees ride then you clearly need to go back to school and study reading plain English a bit more. I really couldn't have made it any clearer for you that I was saying the complete opposite.

What about the texts anyway? I wasn't aware a jockey wasn't allowed to give his views on his rides but just not to do so for payment. They give their views in newspapers and on TV all the time. He also admitted Michael Owen texted him to for tips so are you suggesting he was getting paid for that?

I don't think there's any doubt that Fallon gave his views to Newmarket barman Philip Sherkle as well as his own driver and has admitted as much but I expect he felt they would be used personally by them but no doubt they used them for what they thought they could get from them both personally and by passing them on for gain but that's hardly Fallon's fault. I expect he in a round about way got shall we say "favours" from Sherkel and how exactly was it supposed to have worked with his driver, Fallon saying to him "here's your wages" and then the next minute taking them back for payment?

Not very likely is it and this was the same driver whose horse owning Dad was done for laying his own runners and Sherkel was in with Miles Rodgers, who had already been banned once for laying his own runners and was warned off for life I think later on. He had his horses with Karl Burke whose stable jockeys during the time were Fergal Lynch who admitted stopping one and Darren Williams and all three of those were banned too. Plus there's the small matter of around  7 or so of the horses Fallon was supposed to have stopped actually winning including Rodgers and associates losing over £160k on Russian Rhythm alone which Fallon got back up late on after being headed near the finish. As far as I'm aware Fallon did ride for either Rodgers nor Burke and had no real connection to them other than that he knew the other two jockeys involved.

Cheers for your support brigust1 but some people are so blinkered by bitterness that they can't even see the wood for the trees. As for your suggestion of asking me anything directly, that's far too much like common sense!

Very interesting thread. Was all this the reason The Ramsden's moved to France?