Tom Segal...the man who said AP McCoy

and how many times did the champ ride Denman to victory over fences?

So you would have 10 others before him over fences yeah?

and how many times did the champ ride Denman to victory over fences?

Zero, in 3 attempts. Perhaps Segal knew what he was talking about !

4000 winners. Stick that up yer arse Segal

Nov 7, 2013 -- 3:15PM, WFT wrote:

and how many times did the champ ride Denman to victory over fences?Zero, in 3 attempts. Perhaps Segal knew what he was talking about !

Don't be fecking stupid. Once he fell, once the horse wasn't right and once it ran a monster of a race against a simply superior horse. He's the greatest

ballydoyle - not 10, no. But more than zero.

that no-one on earth has ridden more chase wins than the champ.

I suspect very few have ridden as many chase losers as the champ. 4,000 winners is a magnificent achievement but is partly due to the number of rides he has taken. Scudamore used to take each summer off, the lazy git.

Scu was a better jockey than McCoy. As was Francome. Loads of winners is irrelevant. When all the top jocks turn up at the big meetings, Geraghty, Walsh and others ride more winners.

Pat Taafe, Tommy Carberry and Johnjo were all better over fences, certainly Francome was,

Come on Johnny.

30% + strike rate

I think what should be taken into account in this case is the character of the various jockeys, McCoy is totally obsessed with riding winners and breaking records, only McCoy would travel all the way to Perth for one fancied ride if it meant riding yet another winner.

Many of the other top jump jockeys had a life outside of racing, when was the last time McCoy took a day off or brought his wife and kids on a holiday?.

Surely if Ruby wasn't dividing his time between riding in Ireland and England he would've won a few jockeys titles if he had based himself solely in Britain and put his mind to it?, but that was never going to happen with the firepower at his disposal from the Mullins camp.

Number of winners doesn't mean you're head and shoulders above your contemporaries, was Gordon Richards really the greatest European jockey because he rode more winners than anyone else?.

I'm amazed how McCoy is getting trashed on here

I'm not Trashing A.P., wonderful jockey, often saved my bacon, kept me in the game on more than one occasion, but no need to go o.t.t., excuse my maths.,but does a 30% strike rate mean that he has ridden over 9000 losers ? Is this a record also ?

12000 losers

That a record then?

his medical record is unreal,broken nearly every bone in body,dieting over longterm can't be easy,travels 75k miles a year

top man @evens.

to a £1 unit to sp--Would hav to be 10/3 I think to be overall profit?

silvergreaser @ 9.44 is spot on.
It's not 'trashing' McCoy to offer an analytic perspective on what has happened.
His achievement is remarkable for the stamina and single-mindedness it evinces...it has nothing to do with being 'the best jockey'. McCoy is the winningmost jockey -that's it. Someone has to be and not all jockeys get the same chance.
The field of race-riding is not a level one with equal opportunities for all -and it can never be... for reasons that have been explained on here many times.

take your point vubiant

How many winners have toff Tom  ridden

Not quite Tim Henman hysteria but the racing media sure have run them close over what was probably the most inevitable outcome ever.

We've known for years that McCoy would ride 4000 winners and many more.

deserves all the accolades going. tom segal is a numpty if he thinks ap cant win on any horse ahead of other jockeys

deserves all the accolades going. tom segal is a numpty if he thinks ap cant win on any horse ahead of other jockeys

We've known for years that McCoy would ride 4000 winners and many more?

serious injury is only one ride away

exactly xmoneyx, too many people on here are petty and jealous of success

xymonex I said that on another thread once Tony avoided a career ending injury it was all only a matter of time that he would surpass 4000 in spades.

"Many of the other top jump jockeys had a life outside of racing, when was the last time McCoy took a day off or brought his wife and kids on a holiday?."

and that old saying, Stop and smell the Roses.

I guess in the end you have to balance up work and sacrifice, but McCoy is McCoy and he is so driven.

hes still young

McCoy has ridden the most winners - Fact, but as others on here have pointed out, that does not mean hes the best jockey. Personally preferred Francome and Dunwoody, and that's it really, the best jockey is down to opinion.

Numerical comparisons are not a basis for assessing the best jockey. Deciding who you would want on your side in a finish is.
AP every time.

just reading this thread
first i,d like to congratulate A P on a remarkable achievement
but the thread is about tom segal saying he wouldn't be in his top ten over fences, well i don't know about top ten but certainly not the best riding today, was never happy with McCoy riding denman or masterminded, his style is great to get the best out of moderate horses, he is far and away the best at that, but some of the very best know what they are doing and need a different style, so tom segal is correct in my view, and most people who know anything about horses will concur with him
A P is a wonderful jockey no doubts, but getting more winners than anyone else makes him an owners dream and a punters dream but doesn't make him the best over a fence

I'd like to see his list of 10+ riders

John Whitley's jockey rankings, as plugged regularly by RUK's Willowy pundit, have 7 ahead of AP.

1.DONT PUSH IT  Grand National 2010
2. SYNCHRONISED – Cheltenham Gold Cup 2011
3. MAKE A STAND – Champion Hurdle 1997
4. EDREDON BLEU – Champion Chase 2000:
5. HENNESSY – Bet365 Chase 2009 & WITCHITA LINEMAN - William Hill Chase 2009:

What is the best method of assessing the quality of a jockey? It can't just be number of winners because access to the top stables plays a part.
Scu and AP owe a huge debt to the Pipe stable, which gave them a lot of relatively easy winners. I wonder what ability level Scu would have been assessed at without M Pipe.
I remember someone assessing flat jockeys by measuring what they got out of horses that had been ridden by many different jockeys. I think on that analysis, the "best" jockeys were all outside the top 10 using the winners measure.

Assuming Pipe stayed the same, how do Scu and AP's strikerates for Martin Pipe compare?

@Cantthinkofaclevername -- I remember someone assessing flat jockeys by measuring what they got out of horses that had been ridden by many different jockeys.

They are the Whitley (Computer Racing Research) ratings I alluded to -- AP is joint 8th.

But even that is not foolproof because trainers will reach for a top jockey when their nag starts to sparkle on the gallops.

The first thing anyone will tell you about any sporting great is that they possess the drive determination application and sheer bloody mindedness to do the job, when comparing him to other jockeys I'd be happy to say that he wins hands down on that score alone, yes other jockeys may have been able to serve it up to him if the "fancied" it, but that's the point, they haven't have they.

not top 10 is a p^sstake shirley

xmoneyx 08 Nov 13 13:27 Joined: 12 Jul 11 | Topic/replies: 16,366 | Blogger: xmoneyx's blog
1.DONT PUSH IT  Grand National 2010
2. SYNCHRONISED – Cheltenham Gold Cup 2011
3. MAKE A STAND – Champion Hurdle 1997
4. EDREDON BLEU – Champion Chase 2000:
5. HENNESSY – Bet365 Chase 2009 & WITCHITA LINEMAN - William Hill Chase 2009:
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not sure what this is too prove, but if its to say look at all the top reces he's won let me tell you A P  last 3yrs has won14 grade 1's 71 grade 1's 17 yrs
ruby  134 in 15 yrs 45 in last 3yrs
geraghty 85 in 14yrs  32 in last 3yrs

But duffy the key point is that not all jockeys have the same ammunition -nor can there ever be an equal supply to go around.Jockeys are not directly competing with each other -horses are.
A huge number of McCoy's wins have come on odds-on penalty kicks going back to Pipe's day.
people seem to forget that the quality of horse comes into the equation first and foremost.
McCoy was often seen winning in close finishes -that's because he was far more frequently riding horses that were good enough to get him in the mix. Simple common sense really and no denigration of McCoy whatsoever to point it out.

Ok I give up

McCoy is a gimp

Ok I give up

McCoy is a gimp

No-one is saying AP is a gimp. People are saying that assessing AP (or any jockey) is more complicated than counting winners.

Was Gary Lineker a better footballer than Bobby Charlton? Do you think any football fan would consider the debate settled on the number of England caps each won?

We get people saying
a) A P McCoy is the greatest NH jockey ever
b) I know this because he has ridden more NH winners than anyone else
c) No one will ever exceed this total of NH winners ridden

what they are logically implying in these 3 propositions is that of all the jockeys that are still to ride in NH no one can ever be 'greater' than McCoy ...and clearly this is an absurd position. Why ever should this be the case , why should the door be closed on the possibility at this juncture ?

have listed 7 jocks (in order of preference) I would use over fences before calling Dave Roberts

Ruby Walsh
Barry Geraghty
Andrew Lynch
Timmy Murphy
Richard Johnson
Paul Carberry
Aidan Coleman

and I think Wayne Hutchinson could possibly be added to the list, this is not a slight on McCoy but imho these guys are better horseman the point I think Tom was making

A goodly list trev -I'd be thinking along these same lines myself.

Nov 8, 2013 -- 3:07PM, trevor007 wrote:

have listed 7 jocks (in order of preference) I would use over fences before calling Dave RobertsRuby WalshBarry GeraghtyAndrew LynchTimmy MurphyRichard JohnsonPaul CarberryAidan Colemanand I think Wayne Hutchinson could possibly be added to the list, this is not a slight on McCoy but imho these guys are better horseman the point I think Tom was making

You lost me at Timmy Murphy

not really Thunder, Timmy has all the ability and skill in the world but doesn't have what AP has, drive, determination, desire to rock up everyday and give 1000%

Trevor, re your list at 15.07. Richard Johnson!!! You are having a laugh, surely!!

agree with trevor
in fact reading this thread more, the people screaming mcCoy the greatest are actually the one's who LEAST appreciate his achievements, they just think most winners best jockey

AP gave denman a shocker in the GC,as k big arry

Having the second most winners definitely does not make you the 2nd best jockey!

sam twiston and brian cooper will be in these debates before too long
ruby and francome my top two

clerkmore, obviously not having a laugh just my thoughts, also we could say by using your rational with post @ 16:15 having the most winners doesn't make you the GREATEST jockey shirely

Great achievement, however, I reckon ATR are going to be milking this until he rides another 4000 ffs

Personally I'd say Ruby the better jockey over the large obstacles - totally different style to AP. Peter Scu was exceptional over fences, again better than AP . Francome was & still is the best jock I've seen over fences, but then he lacked the grit or drive of AP. In fact no other jump jockey I've see has that kind of determination - Piggott on the flat had it.

Many of the other names mentioned are much of a muchness imo - good as some of them undoubtedly are - give me AP over the last couple of fences & on the run in every time.

Piggott indeed had drive and determination but not on an everyday basis, which is why McCoy stands out so much, haven't seen another jockey in all my years following the sport, flat or jumps, that has had the hunger for winners for every ride that he has.

B.J. Geraghty (nap) R. Walsh (nb) - AP very very strong on horses, amazing endurance, seems like a top chap, but and a serious but, not anywhere near the best at presenting horses at an obstacle, surely a key requirement to be the greatest

In terms of pure ability it would be hard to put AP at the top of any list. That in itself makes his achievements even more praiseworthy. In simple terms he has got the absolute maximum out of his ability and with the vast majority of his rides he has extracted almost everything from the horses.

He will always be the strongest jockey in a finish but there is no comparison with Francome in terms of obstacle presentation.

We provided 2 of his winners and the first was on my wifes birthday in a novice claimer at Worcester, you would be hard pressed to find a nicer man who made us feel important and posed for all the photos and gave priceless comments on where to go next.

Top man.

" Piggott indeed had drive and determination but not on an everyday basis, which is why McCoy stands out so much, haven't seen another jockey in all my years following the sport, flat or jumps, that has had the hunger for winners for every ride that he has."

He's retained by the wrong stable then.

Whoever said Scu was a better jockey than AP needs to be sectioned.

Well put by NOW WE KNOW - perhaps not the greatest ever talent but extraordinary drive and will to win is immeasurable - some seem to want to criticise the guy because he has achieved so much success but surely nobody can argue with his stats as a measure of what he has achieved even if they don't consider him to be the best jock which of course comes down to personal preference

Trevor, I completely agree with you that having the most winners does not make you the greatest jockey. You will note that in any of my posts I never said that.

For the record, and as I am quite ancient, I would have AP in my top five. I would consider Ruby Walsh to be the most complete jockey I have seen. Followed by Fred Winter, Richard Dunwoody, John Francome and AP.

great admirer of McCoy, but I feel he also gave sir des champs a poor ride in this years gold cup. if regular davy Russell was on board I feel sir des champs would have won the Cheltenham gold cup. just my opinion.

4000 winners is an astonishing achievement , but it has been attained because AP is a driven man , not because he is a superior jockey to Walsh , Geraghty , Johnson et al.

Are we confusing being stylish for being superior?

...imagine , you've a lumpy bet, you horse is racing lazily & off the bridle with a circuit to go seemingly going nowhere, you get a chance to swap riders & put a different jockey on it. Who do you choose?

AP, end of.

4,000 winners and champion jockey for years says it all

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring,for what it's worth.
It seems to me that many good points are being raised regarding the presentation of a horse to an obstacle and it is true that there are some jockeys who "look" better on a horse than AP,Ruby's name always comes up in this respect but when he goes after his mount,Ruby's so-called style often goes out the window and he can look terrible,in this respect AP is superior.
The other facet where he is simply streets ahead of the rest is in tactical awareness,almost always in the right place to give his horse the best chance of winning whether or not it is good enough to do so.
The dicussion seems to have turned into a debate about style and there's a lot more to jockeyship than looking good at a fence.
One final point,anybody who punts on National Hunt racing on a regular basis has a McCoy story about how AP got them out of trouble at some point,we don't say that a)lightly or b)about any other jockey.

john wayne.....is tom the same numpty you are praising on another thread????????????????

Lester Piggot remarked that winning was 90% about the horse! I wonder how McCoy would look  if all he rode was 20/1 shots.

The only reason McCoy got where he is, is not that he is a dedicated sportsman, but most of the horses he has ridden might have been better than..the...rest? did Tony win or the horse win?

I'm sure Roger Federer was the best, never had to rely on the ability of a horse.

Mc Coy is like fergie, he'll always get extra time (lenghts, effort) out of a horse and also knows when to make a move and get into right position - I agree with CJ - I know who Id rather have on AP all the way - be a sad day when he leaves - I think Adam Kirby could be the next best thing at least on the AW thats for sure

It's jockeys for courses for me. McCoy tries his bollox off even if it is a two bob race at Towcester. You couldn't say the same about every jockey. Give me the choice at Cheltenham in March and my top two would be Geraghty and Walsh. As for history it's like comparing boxers from different eras.

A lot of people here with selective memory loss. 

"McCoy tries his bollox off" every time is complete bollox.

Look at the video of Cantlow at Lingfield and then tell us why he didn't
try his bollox off on that one. There are lots of other examples as well.

Does anyone know how many rides he rode for Martin Pipe?  I find it a bit
irritating that McCoy has hardly mentioned M Pipe, but instead blabs on and on
about how wonderful O'Neill and McManus are.

You must have missed some of his interviews, has mentioned Pipey in all those I've seen, as for Cantlow, knowing the connections involved you have to look at what the long range aim is.

remember AP riding horse with more than half the race to go and was riding for his life, horse didnt want to race or was too slow
unbeliveble the horse won, that was something special, must of been a couple of fences behind. no one on this planet would of won
on that horse that day, only AP. won me a few hundred that day.

I feel he also gave sir des champs a poor ride in this years gold cup. if regular davy Russell was on board I feel sir des champs would have won the Cheltenham gold cup. just my opinion.

On what basis? He put the horse in the race, got a good round out of him and was into a position to challenge. The horse simply wasn't good enough to beat the winner, who came from a mile back (and could easily have been brought down) and finished full of running.

Well said CJ and roadrunner. Thats what sets AP apart from the rest. He never knows when his beat, W Lineman being a prime example

I was firmly in the Francombe camp until AP arrived on the scene,and maybe he doesn't present a horse as well at there fences,but he has he
own style and is just as effective. Couldn't have peter Scu in my top 12

doesnt mcoys own words give the lie to that this is such a remarkable achievement when he says,
regardless of his ability,horses quality etc if he decides to ride another 5 years theres a good chance he,ll ride 5000 winners,its just a matter of staying around if he fancys it,

Couldn't have peter Scu in my top 12

Just grabbed a book off the shelf at random, which has some 92/93 statistics. Scu's strike rate was 31 per cent. AP's strike rate over the seasons has also hit 31 per cent twice. I suppose you could argue (and probably correctly) that any top jockey riding for Martin Pipe would have similar figures, but Scu must be a contender.

he's far too fond of himself to ever be a nice guy

present a horse at a fence,he wins races,stop trying to sound clever !

If we consider only pattern races, where competition is fiercest and you cannot win merely by being on the fittest horse in the race, then here are the numbers won from 2000 onwards for the top ten jockeys (Britain only, not Ireland):

    208 R Walsh
    184 A P McCoy
     99 Richard Johnson
     94 Barry Geraghty
     93 Timmy Murphy
     83 Robert Thornton
     60 Mick Fitzgerald
     45 B J Geraghty
     40 Tom Scudamore
     37 G Lee

And from 2010 to now:
     83 Barry Geraghty
     67 R Walsh
     49 A P McCoy
     32 Richard Johnson
     21 Daryl Jacob
     19 Tom Scudamore
     18 Jason Maguire
     16 Robert Thornton
     16 Noel Fehily
     14 Sam Twiston-Davies

Hmm. The first table is ballsed up by the great jockey-renaming exercise which did so much to boost racing's popularity, so we need to add B J Geraghty to Barry Geraghty, and so on. Back soon!

So from 2000 onwards:
    208 R Walsh
    184 A P McCoy
    139 Barry Geraghty
     99 Richard Johnson
     93 Timmy Murphy
     83 Robert Thornton
     60 Mick Fitzgerald
     44 Graham Lee
     40 Tom Scudamore
     40 Paddy Brennan

And from 2010 to now:
     83 Barry Geraghty
     67 R Walsh
     49 A P McCoy
     32 Richard Johnson
     21 Daryl Jacob
     19 Tom Scudamore
     18 Jason Maguire
     16 Robert Thornton
     16 Noel Fehily
     14 Sam Twiston-Davies

Here is an interesting one: what happens if you separate chases and hurdles? The answer is that Ruby and AP switch places.

Chases from 2000:
    110 R Walsh
     85 A P McCoy
     74 Barry Geraghty
     51 Timmy Murphy
     50 Richard Johnson

Hurdles from 2000:
     91 A P McCoy
     87 R Walsh
     61 Barry Geraghty
     53 Robert Thornton
     46 Richard Johnson

Advert: numbers are from Raceform Interactive btw.

Do any ground differences show up?

I can remember Francome saying on the morning line, when McCoy was still claiming, that he'd never seen a jockey get hold of a horse and make it run, like McCoy, and that he was something special. I guess a lot of people, including me, consider that's McCoy's great strength - getting horses to keep running - and I would guess that counts for more on softer ground.

I agree with NWK, that Francome was the best I've seen at presenting a horse at a fence (which can count for many lengths - particularly on faster ground, imo - and isn't just for show). Walsh and Carberry would be close behind.

A lot of it is different styles suiting different horses. Sometimes a horse just gets fed up being ridden a certain way. A good example, imo, was Take Control in the Scottish National - McCoy had been beaten on it about 10 times in a row, but Walsh got on it and gave it a different type of ride - very much a Walsh ride, rather than a McCoy ride, and it won a big pot.

I caa remember McCoy winning the Mackeson on Shooting Light, for Pipe/that Hills guy, when the horse jumped badly to start with because McCoy (by his own admission) was firing the horse into fences, and the horse wouldn't have it. As soon as he gave it more of a chance, the horse jumped much better. Credit to McCoy for saying as much on TV, but I doubt Walsh would have made the 'mistake' in the first place.

I do think McCoy is a top man though, and when you put it all together, he is probably the best - but he's not the best at all aspects of riding (imo).

imagine if mccoy had ridden for nicholls or henderson over that period,im sure that them statistics would be very different ! he would be miles clear,head and shoulders above anyone mccoy is !

imagine if mccoy had ridden for nicholls or henderson over that period

Imagine if McCoy had ridden for the multiple champion trainer and then switched to the biggest owner, with his pick of outside rides.

@ged -- Do any ground differences show up?

I might investigate this evening. Work calls now.

Ramruma's stats would be more interesting if the h'cap marks of their respective mounts were analysed.

In term of career mounts I doubt that Ruby Walsh has sat on a beast in the UK rated under 100.

Anyone (except Joe Tizzard of course) can look good riding the Rolls Royces of the equine world.

For those who rate Ruby's artistry way beyond AP's finesse the following table must make disturbing reading.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150658/Champion-jockey-AP-McCoy-seen-incredible-20-mounts-die-5-years.html


Just think how much worse Ruby's stats would have been if he hadnt cherry picked the best rides in the UK and instead ridden around Plumpton & Towcester on selling platers every wet & cold winter Monday.

My figures cover Graded and Listed races in Britain only. Ruby's figures would probably get a greater boost from including Irish races, and you'd expect Davy Russell and other Irish-based jockeys to feature.

Ruby has spent most of his time in Ireland. Surely wrong if comparing stats to ignore Rubys achievements there. It is also crazy to say the one with the most wins is necessarily the best. Otherwise just write down the ten with the most winners ever and say thats it these are the best ten in the correct order. Means nothing except that someone was prepared to do an awful lot of travelling to ride mickey mouse horses in mickey mouse races. I admire AP and he is a great jockey and perhaps he is the best ever. We will never know for sure but to say someone is the best because they rode more winners than anyone else is just plain stupid. I dont believe anyone who knows anything about NH racing/riding would ever say that (unless they are just going along with the crowd).

its seems on this forum that "the crowd" dont rate mccoy,i was going on about pattern races to so surely he would of rode more winners if he was with nicholls or henderson over the last few year,ruby is a great jockey but no one comes within a stone of mccoy 1

Ruby has probably won about another 70 graded/listed  races in Ireland since 2010

i was going on about pattern races to so surely he would of rode more winners if he was with nicholls or henderson over the last few year

I do not see why that should be the case. It is not as if AP was riding for Violet Jordan. Martin Pipe was champion trainer by a wide margin each season, and AP is now retained by the biggest owner in the game. In addition, he will be top of the list for outside rides.

We can't just assume AP would have won on Kauto Star and Sprinter Sacre -- maybe he'd have ridden them differently and lost. If the jockey makes no difference, then how can we even have this discussion?

A Jockey never won a race in their life, the horse they're riding wins the race, and no trainer ever won a horse race, the horses they train win.

Simple really when you think about it?