Ryan Moore took the bait a bit quick.

I welcome Ryan Moore's piece. Either we want proper discussion of rides or we don't. If we do, then surely this must be part of it.

Haydock Park, 5 September 2013

2.00, first race

The Stewards held an enquiry to consider why Ryan Moore, the rider of SNOW SKY, fourth, had appeared to ease slightly shortly before the winning post. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race they noted his explanation that inside the final furlong the the winner, GOLD TRAIL (IRE), had drifted in front of him and he felt short of room and anticipated clipping heels.


Wat does he make of that one i wonder? Smaller jock would have had the book thrown at em

Ramruma.....

"What I will say, though, is beware of people in the media who try to carve out a niche for themselves as controversial or "forthright". "


Where does that fit in, within a discussion of rides?

Ghost written sheight how much value do you give it ?
In particular for a jockey who has feck all to say at the best of times.

Whats the agenda of the ghost writer iyho ?

agreed biscar

agreed biscar

"What I will say, though, is beware of people in the media who try to carve out a niche for themselves as controversial or "forthright". "

That is truly a disgraceful remark, sickening to me in fact.

Horse racing is the only sport in which all participants are beyond reproach.

Here here slippy horrable little fooker i m o.

the ghost writer is big tone himself.

tony calvin likely being a pointed with his own views imo.

*bit

Hi honey

"Forthright"

Not in his vocabulary

Fourth
Right Guv

I ghost write it (Tony Calvin)

Happy to have a named conversation with any of you on here if you want to front up.

Having been closely linked with the forum for 11+ years, I'd say that I know most of you already, and any relationships etc you may have in industry

More than happy to interact with Betfair customers though

so name, rank, and number and let's chat

That is truly a disgraceful remark, sickening to me in fact.

What's disgraceful about it? It wasn't used in relation to criticism of the rides, it was used in reference to the suggestion that the Juddmonte announcement had something to do with the perceived bad rides.

prism 06 Sep 13 21:40 
I ghost write it (Tony Calvin)

Journo ?

Ryan Moore is an obnoxious little twerp who thinks he is racing royalty and beyond reproach and he learned all he knows about being an little obnoxious twerp from his dad who is one of the most aggressive, rude and horrible people in racing. Keep up the  good journalism GC it is refreshing to see someone telling the truth and being open and honest.

Correct Billy!

Racing is a game of opinions, except you're not allowed to have any opinions. Ryan needs to lighten up a bit. Jockeys, like everyone else in this sport, need to realise that without the paying punter there's be no game to participate in.

Did you ghost write the Nicholls blog too Tony ?

yes Biscar


I was in Barbados reporting Kautos schooling fall...

oops

names, gents, and I'll answer anything. So we all know who we are and where we stand.

I got the impression Ryan Moore and/or Tony Calvin were alluding to the fact that it's OK to give fair criticism if warranted or even if a lot of different media did so at different times and in individual circumstances, but that the suggestion was someone like John McCririck do so on a repeat loop for the sake of hearing his own voice and to try to get a name for that kind of thing and become the self-proclaimed punters pal.

Only Ryan or Tony can tell us if the were implying Graham Cunningham was going that way too. I personally felt it was a bit of an uncalled for comment either way unless you are going to name names and not just hint at it. For the record I'm more than happy to reveal who I am but I'm nobody of any great importance so it won't mean much to anyone anyway and am just an ordinary bloke with an interest in racing and quite opinionated too.

so how does it work prism,you write it and ryan gets paid for what?do u think he is happy that it looks like hes a right muppet?what did u think of the spencer ride?
u can get my details from ur colleagues if its so important to u

The last time I revealed my name (ordinary bloke) when being challenged years ago by Barry Dennis, I got yellow carded. Graham Cunningham is entitled to his opinion, as is Ryan Moore. Imagine these jockeys had to take the same level of criticism as football players, how would they handle that?
We all know that horses aren't machines, but jockeys aren't immune to opinion, debate and criticism of their rides. Ryan mentions the pundits he respects. Does he respect them because he doesn't get criticism from them, or is it coincidence? Only he could say, I guess.

prism has taken the gloves off it would seem.

Any takers?

Did the nicholls blog not read that everything went well or words to that effect when in fact the horse had fallen.The  credibility of these blogs went out the window after that.

Out of interest I would be fascinated to know how these blogs work.Do you write the blogs and run them by the person?Or does the "blogger" just let you have free rein ,do they have any input ?

In the hope that you are genuinely who you say you are,I appreciate your presence on the forum and your willingness to partake in some discussion.

Only he could say, I guess.

I chuckled to myself when I read that G2D!

"It didn't bother me too much, in truth, as it was pretty tame stuff and we all have our opinions"



So why have an article written about it, racing is a minority sport most people on the street aren't bothered about so why go to such lengths to defend the jockey after all its only an opinion of which there are many............



A.Customer.

Prism
"Having been closely linked with the forum for 11+ years, I'd say that I know most of you already, and any relationships etc you may have in industry

More than happy to interact with Betfair customers though"


75 replies in 11 years doesn't give me that impression
Or ghostwritting other usernames ?

Disappointing response.

if you want an argument Chit Chat is that way >>>>>>>

Ryan would do well to get Johnn's name off Barry Dennis for his next blog..

Bit like the blogs

Read one & never again - dire
Gravy trainers galore
Not a scrap of relevant info that would help anyone with a bit of intelligence
Most here could write or wrote them

The last time I revealed my name (ordinary bloke) when being challenged years ago by Barry Dennis, I got yellow carded. Graham Cunningham is entitled to his opinion, as is Ryan Moore. Imagine these jockeys had to take the same level of criticism as football players, how would they handle that?
We all know that horses aren't machines, but jockeys aren't immune to opinion, debate and criticism of their rides. Ryan mentions the pundits he respects. Does he respect them because he doesn't get criticism from them, or is it coincidence? Only he could say, I guess.

My name is John Nolan, I've been a BF customer since 2002, and I made the above post. I'm not questioning Ryan Moore's ability, only his apparent (or his ghost writer's?) apparent suggestion that Graeme Cunningham's criticism was not well founded. Whether you think it was or wasn't, it wasn't slanderous by a long chalk, therefore it falls between the same parameters that sportsman and people in the public domain have to read every day.

Journalists are paid to report, provoke discussion and be insightful within the sport they cover, supposedly. If everyone - or anyone - is to be immune from criticism, then someone can lock the door on the way out.

Not bad for a crayonist, johnn..

Why does he feel the need to demand names from people? Aren't the cards already dealt far enough in the racing mafia's favour as it is? Simply give honest answers, or are they so far up themselves that they have forgotten how to do it?

What response are you after prism?

You write your thoughts, your arguments for and against, and Ryan gets his name put on it.

Saying in the statement "i'm not going to mention this, this and this" means that you have mentioned it.

Well said john.

Smacks of McCarthyism this 'name names' sh*t, they want to isolate the critics so they can continue on their merry way.

average 7 posts a year ....

Unlike your 7 a minute Delta...

good value here Johnn

No disagreement, mate.

but therein lies the point johnn

no contribution to the ailing forum until it suits and then they want something, too many of them!

Does he respect them because he doesn't get criticism from them, or is it coincidence? Only he could say, I guess.

Interesting you should say that because he mentioned Willoughby who was the first to slate the ride on Racing UK.

Of course what he didn't do was to suggest the Doyle announcement had anything to do with it. I'd find it hard to believe that nobody has alerted Moore to what Willoughby said during the past week.

Such is life.

If you think the way a ghost writer operates is to pursue his own agenda, and get it rubber stamped by the person putting their name to it, then you are ever so slightly mistaken.

Johnn - good shout. I dont think he has any problem whatsoever with criticism and only twice in two seasons have we done an article like this. One with Lee Mottershead last year, which was quite punchy, and then today's. And I would have said today's was pretty mild myself.

I remember Lee having no problem after the article was talked through with him by RM. It was good old fashioned give and take, as it should be, and today's was small beer.

If journalists can pen articles, making some questionable assumptions and inferences, then surely people like Moore or Hughes in his RP column have a right of reply.

Still cant get my head round why Moore would post this response. He has just opening himself up to ridicule, which he certainly got and deserved imo. (Well done).

Take the smack and get on with life lad, more importantly, learn from it.

Hope Cunningham's colleagues back him up.

prism/tony, thanks for replying.

If journalists can pen articles, making some questionable assumptions and inferences, then surely people like Moore or Hughes in his RP column have a right of reply.

Absolutely, as I said above, much of this is subjective and it works both ways. I think Hughes' column on a Saturday in the RP has been hugely insightful, and helpful to his reputation. I assume it is ghost written?

Yes, Lee Mottershead writes it.

Sorry for repeating myself  but I'd be grateful if you could  let us know how they do work, the blogs.The national newspapers have on a Saturday a column by so and so, yet I'd be surprised if the person at the head of the column has any input.How do the columns on here work ,how much input do the jockeys/trainers have , do you write them and run it by them or do they actually come up with the topics. TIA.

I suspect the usual suspects in media will close ranks, when they needn't do anything of the sort. Same goes with jockeys. the more debate, anmd exchange of views, in this sport the better. A lot of the time it is just back-scratching.

Biscar - I am happy to.

will yifter be barred from the forum now iyo?

Take another angle, before I turn in for the night.

Ryan says he has more respect (in so many words) for several other journos, who incidentally didn't criticise him at any time in the past the way GC has. Given that the inference is that criticism is ok as long as it is justified, does the fact that these people have never criticised him mean that...

1)He has never made a mistake
2)They are not doing their job properly
3)An element of both

I'm off to bed now. Criticism of my performance in the next hour will no doubt exist, I can only hope that she doesn't blog about it..

Night all.

Goodnight john,

thanks for the input.

Take her gently.

"Ryan says" and all the reference to "Ryan's" comments might well be irrelevant until we know what input if any he actually has on the blog.In effect they might not be his thoughts at all.

Everyone has a right of reply Prism

But pointless inane blog ramblings not written by themselves is purely a waste of time

Having seen Moore when confronted with a mike - he wouldn't give us the time of day
Unless it suited him
A la the blogs

Can't fault you for taking the Betfair dollar
But to expect most here to believe the shenanigans is belittling to the forum

Prism
"I dont think he has any problem whatsoever with criticism and only twice in two seasons have we done an article like this. "

Can we see the Betfair light thru this ?

John
She says its not a sprint btw

I tend to rate jockeys by which one makes the fewest mistakes, and who I can trust to give the horse I want to back the best ride possible.

Ryan Moore is top of my list by a country mile.

Jamie Spencer is bottom of the same list with a distance between him and the one above him.

Although I appreciate Ryan would never say so as a fellow professional, he'd go up a lot in my estimation if he used his blog to say, "**** me, he's given that a piss poor ride", like the rest of us do.

And follow it up with his honest opinion of Derek Thompson. I think we all know what that would be though......

My view is that the article was well intended and much needed. The underlying message was to stop the smoke blowing and the glossing over that sometimes prevails.

But I do think that the Abdulla retainer link was a little tenuous to say the least, in as much as its supposed affect on the race riding abilities of some seasoned pro's. If indeed, that is what was being suggested.

There are much more obvious targets to put under the spotlight, for much greater misdemeanors, than the unusual suspects mentioned in the article.

If we were getting really forthright (and potentially litigious), we could have a "most wanted" column in the post based on the average number of no shows per jockey, per week. I suspect Ryan Moore's face wouldn't feature very often.

No problem with Moore defending himself from any criticism in the media or giving his own version of events, but the inclusion of this statement is a bit pathetic.

beware of people in the media who try to carve out a niche for themselves as controversial or "forthright"

It strongly implies that Cunningham may have had a hidden motive for his article, rather than just giving an honest critical opinion of what he sees as a poor ride, something all too rare in the mealy-mouthed world of the racing media.

mind you ryan is right........Cunningham is a failed tipster......

whose lucky to be slurping on the gravy train

Although I appreciate Ryan would never say so as a fellow professional, he'd go up a lot in my estimation if he used his blog to say, "**** me, he's given that a piss poor ride", like the rest of us do.

but if he did that, trainers might listen to him and get rid of Frank..... leaving Moore having to ride against a better jock.

No, much better to say Frank is the bee's knees.....

I think GC has done really well recently, Jim Mcgrath's silence on C4 a highlight.

There was no need for Ryan to respond publicly (however much it was Ryan?) He could have given Graham a ring if he had a problem, when was the last time a sportsman/woman responded publicly to such tame criticism? Imagine if all sports people responded like this to every small critique, it shows how pathetic so many racing "journalists" are that GC's comments have become a talking point.

This blog post makes him look over sensitive (which I'm sure he isn't) and the It would be very easy for me to respond by mentioning recent mistakes made in print or on TV, or tipping prowess. But I won't go down that route comment makes him look like a tart having handbags (which I'm sure he isn't)

As mentioned already these blogs aren't taken seriously/are rarely even read since the Kauto Star schooling fall "Paul is delighted" entry, I'd much prefer to read an interview with Tony Calvin and Ryan or Paul Nicholls or whoever.

In fairness, as far as which pundits Ryan Moore is saying he has respect for goes, he lists those names regarding the potential "how many winners you have ridden" line in that he's saying he doesn't use that as his default setting response to any criticism if he or another jockey receives any from a non-jockey and those he names as respecting their views haven't ridden any winners either.

All this just another reason why the jumps can't come back quick enough. So many ****s/bad jockeys on the flat, everything about breeding, top jockeys and trainers openly schooling in public, jockeys not bothering their hole to ride out for a place etc.

maybe their ghost writers are their ghost riders as well.
that could explain some of the rides. (I haven't ridden any winners by the way)

When a Test Batsman is out, ( for example ) the dismissal is shown over and over again for all to see and the players shortcomings are highlighted by the sport's pundits on TV and Radio and in print . More often than not the said player will just put his hands up and admit to "playing a bad shot"  or whatever.

Would it not be great if, for once, a jockey would just front up and admit they got it wrong ( or explain why they did or didn't do something at some certain part of a race).Punters I feel would have far more respect for them if they were more open .

Sadly in Horse Racing, Trainers and Jockeys seem to feel they work in a world where the paying public is deemed as not worthy of anything other than the most brief soundbyte,and who are we to question what they do .

Well if thats the case maybe they should race their horses behind closed gates on empty tracks with no cameras.

johnn

johnn
06 Sep 13 22:22
Joined:
14 Oct 02
| Topic/replies: 4,148 | Blogger: johnn's blog
The last time I revealed my name (ordinary bloke) when being challenged years ago by Barry Dennis, I got yellow carded. Graham Cunningham is entitled to his opinion, as is Ryan Moore. Imagine these jockeys had to take the same level of criticism as football players, how would they handle that?
We all know that horses aren't machines, but jockeys aren't immune to opinion, debate and criticism of their rides. Ryan mentions the pundits he respects. Does he respect them because he doesn't get criticism from them, or is it coincidence? Only he could say, I guess.

My name is John Nolan, I've been a BF customer since 2002, and I made the above post. I'm not questioning Ryan Moore's ability, only his apparent (or his ghost writer's?) apparent suggestion that Graeme Cunningham's criticism was not well founded. Whether you think it was or wasn't, it wasn't slanderous by a long chalk, therefore it falls between the same parameters that sportsman and people in the public domain have to read every day.

Journalists are paid to report, provoke discussion and be insightful within the sport they cover, supposedly. If everyone - or anyone - is to be immune from criticism, then someone can lock the door on the way out.




Sadly in Horse Racing, we all know that Journalists,with a few exceptions,do NOT do as John writes above

He named James Willoughby as one of those he respects. Well Willoughby criticised the ride on Racing UK immediately after the race.

I doubt that Ryan has not been made aware of that over the course of the week. I get the feeling it's not so much the opinion of the ride that's rankled on this occasion and more the suggestion that the Juddmonte announcement may have been a reason for it.

The fact Moore has felt the need to respond to an article containing such tame criticism just shows how little the racing media actually do criticise those involved in the sport.

Why is Tony Calvin so interested in other people's names - play the ball, not the man Tony. So, to repeat a question already asked; did you ghostwrite the infamous PN article following KS's fall?

He answered that on the opening page DR,but we have yet to fathom how much input the trainers/jockeys have,the nicholls blog would suggest very little which means the money they spend on them is just a waste as no-one gives them any credibility

Don't think he did Biscar...

Did you write the Nicholls blog too ?

"yes Biscar


I was in Barbados reporting Kautos schooling fall... "

That wasn't prism

oh yes it is...

beg your pardon DR it was Transformer Delta,Tony in disguise

I wonder did this kind of scenario happen regarding Kauto Star/Paul Nicholls's blog?

All involved were aware that the horse was due to have a schooling session and then it's all systems go from then on and no perceived problems, so Tony Calvin goes or had gone away to Barbados and from there ghosts Nicholls's blog under those circumstances and sends it back at a time when unaware of the fall and it makes it to Nicholl's blog as if nothing untoward has happened?

No doubt we all remember AP's response to Lydia and now this. Criticised a couple of times when they literally could be ripped to pieces every half an hour. Count yourselves lucky.

As someone else mentioned would punters be that bothered if we didn't hear a word from them and that includes those who will be forming an orderly queue to join the media ranks once retired.

Had to laugh at Moore's list of respected pundits. You can just see him cosying up with the family listening to the mad professor can't you?

Lydia and Mellish were subsquently proved 100% corrrect when they highlighted McCoy's ride on Get Me Out Of Here at Ascot that day.McCoy's toys out the pram were a smoke screen as it was so blatant.

prism 06 Sep 13 21:40 
I ghost write it (Tony Calvin)

Happy to have a named conversation with any of you on here if you want to front up.

Having been closely linked with the forum for 11+ years, I'd say that I know most of you already, and any relationships etc you may have in industry

More than happy to interact with Betfair customers though

so name, rank, and number and let's chat

----------

Absolutely idiotic. If you are who you say you are then tell us why Betfair insist on a forum name rather than just showing our real name when we post?

You say you are more than happy to interact with customers yet to post on here you have to be..... a customer. So what's your problem?

As someone said, play the ball, not the man.

I thought you would be all for anonymity after your TV performance in the wake of the Voler La Vedette farce anyway

As for your or any other columns, anyone taking much notice of them after the Kauto Star incident needs their head examined.

Ima,

The Kauto blog incident was:

On saturday morning the Paul Nicholls blog said that Ruby had been to school Kauto on Friday and that they were delighted with the session.

Later that week Paul Nicholls told us all that Kauto Star had actually had an awful fall on that friday morning, it looked like he didn't know what had been written in the blog.

good jockey but much admit I hate the way he treats Bob Cooper manners cost nothing

I think it's great jockey's have a platform to respond and for me it was a great response. If someone was going to criticise what I do in my job I'd at least expect some reasoning and actual opinion on what I'd done wrong. The irony is the ride on Integral wasn't really even that bad a ride. Yes he went too early in hindsight but the filly pulled herself up in front she could have easily pulled a couple of lengths clear. The fact Moore is one of the first to criticise himself made it such an obvious target to write an article on because a high profile jockey had admitted to "messing up". To wrongly link it to Doyle getting the Juddmonte job as Ryan said was a sheer lack of homework. No surprises there as GC's homework is generally done by asking twitter to do it for him. How about next time GC sees a horse ridden out the back  like a non trier which we have all seen a million times he writes an article on that because the racing media clearly lacks balls in this department. I think balanced discussion on good and bad rides is a great thing but at least go in to a bit of depth. If you want to say somebody did something badly at least have the decency and respect to give details and explain.

Isn't it strange ( but not at all surprising ) what pushes people's sensitivity buttons. There's a tinge of 'going around - coming around' about this affair - Journo v reticent Jock. 

With acknowledgements to some of your comments Masterminded/Johnn/John92/Gonzo/Tips/G2D/Brother/Kenbo/Jonjo/ etc etc in fact,remarkably virtually all on the thread!

I'm not Graham C's greatest proponent ( almost resentfully,I've waded through the previously unheeded relevant RP column by GC ) but even I have to feel sorry for GC to be so damned with the faint praise of being described as a 'great communicator' by such a communication authority as Ryan. Its certainly, effectively moore harsh, than any incidental criticism I would level at GC's tv etc skills.
GC's Ryanride criticsm was so muted it was almost indiscernible yet its this that Prism chooses to have offended Ryan, not any unprofessionalism indicated by GC's again oblique criticism of Ryan's anachronistic responses to journos/media - 

'Moores response to various interviewers over a long period shows he needs no new friends'.   
Ryan's part of the dwindling but resilient corps of similar recidivists in the industry that almost rejoice in this facet of themselves.

Don't get me wrong though ( while I rarely share the categorical condemnation some express about riding mistakes including those mentioned quietly by GC ) Ryan's ride explanations that GC has provoked from Prism are refreshing to read and are the good that has come out of this little spat.

"The Stewards held an enquiry to consider why Ryan Moore, the rider of SNOW SKY, fourth, had appeared to ease slightly shortly before the winning post. Having heard his evidence and viewed recordings of the race they noted his explanation that inside the final furlong the the winner, GOLD TRAIL (IRE), had drifted in front of him and he felt short of room and anticipated clipping heels."

there is the smoking gun - Case Closed.      If people deploy the word 'felt/feel' in trying to convince you of something they are lying.  99.5 of the time.   I't's my No. 1 BS Detector and incredibly useful it is.

('%99.9')

99.9% even

this fred folded rather tamely, no repeat sighting from the forum veteran.

All gone to tweet

Not the like the old days when they'd come on here in order to 'draw a line in the sand'!

many of us forum posters go over the top on criticising jockey rides as money is involved. we all have been guilty of that.
but this truly is the only sport on the planet where the gravy train brigade do not criticise the sportsmen involved. some are terrified of the prospect of their colleagues even suggesting a bad ride.
i would like to point out a bad ride today in the 3.50 at brighton given by andrea atzeni on my anchor who finished 3rd. when challenging the leaders up the stands rail in the final furlong he had his whip in his right hand and gave a few backhanders upon which the horse lugged into the one on his outside. my anchor lost his momentum and finished a running on 3rd, beaten half a length. any jock worth his salt knows if u hit them to the right, 9 times out of ten they would go left. this was the wrong thing to do. all he had to do was hit him on the left - please note the horse to his outside was not preventing him from doing this - and he would have run up the rail and probably would have won. this is the simple sort of stuff i would like the studio experts to talk about. maybe the jock would remember it the next day and not commit such a basic error.
ryan moore really needs to relax a little.

My names archie and im an alcoholic
**** wrong thread