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K Fallon
K Fallon
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kieren minted,rides for fun.
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nothing to do with strength, if you don't take time to understand jockeys and horses then you wont understand.
A girlfriend of mine is a work rider in deauville and she explained why Fallon is the best natural race rider of all Jockeys, its how he makes his strength used to maximum effect. Imagine you are on a swing, , you know when you get to that point where you use your weight just as you are about to rise to get more speed, well that is exactly what fallon does when race riding, you only have to look at him when he starts to wake up a horse. Its a physics thing , just look at when he rides in some better well contested race, just look at him bop up and down when all other jockeys are pushing forward. |
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If you want bop up and down and keep the horse running straight as a gun barrel then Pat Eddery is your man, Fallons horses often run all over the shop when he rides a finish, would'nt lace Edderys boots as a horseman.
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I'm very good on a swing. I would've made a fortune as a jockey.
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To suggest that with only a metal bit and a couple of straps to steer a half ton horse that they always went straight for Eddery or any of jockey for that matter in laughable.
For the bulk of his career the rules basically dictated that you had to take corrective action and straighten your horse when it went off a true line and he will have done that thousands of times during his career, both winning and losing races as a result of having to do so. Nowadays there's less incentive to correct them as the result in this season's Falmouth has shown. |
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Imagine you are on a swing, , you know when you get to that point where you use your weight just as you are about to rise to get more speed, well that is exactly what fallon does when race riding, you only have to look at him when he starts to wake up a horse.
Gadzooks, now you've let the cat out of the bag they'll all be doing it. |
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late90/s early noghties Fallon was without doubt one of the true greats,watching him today is like watching george best play football at 45 for some non league club,he isnt even top 20 material
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Got to agree with Silver. 100%
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Neither football nor racing are individual sports and without the team element in place you can't do it all by yourself.......just as Frankie is also finding out now but at least Fallon won a couple of Gr1s last season during the rare times he now gets on one capable of winning at that level.
If ever proof were needed that it's far more about the horses than the jockeys then just look at how Frankie's and James Doyle's careers have practically switched status in the game recently, or how "journeymen" jockeys like Havlin, Hamilton, Kirby, Fanning, Norton, Tudhope and others have gone up a level since getting an association with certain yards and/or now getting to ride a few more of their better ones. Have all of those jockeys improved beyond all recognition recently after years scratching around for rides or could it just be down to riding better quality horses than before? |
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ima,the only time i fancy fallon to get one home these days is on an odds on shot,a lot of his rides look very dubious to me,even taking intoo account he is nowhere near the jockey he was. Very occasionally you see a special ride from him,but its extremely rare nowadays.
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I agree that a lot of his rides look dubious pandora1963 but here's probably where we differ as from my viewpoint they are dubious horses, from yours you seem to be alluding to the rides he gives them are dubious, which seeing as Eddie Ahern has just been banned for 10 years, you do have to wonder how Fallon gets away with it if "a lot of his rides look very dubious" to you..............unless of course there's nothing at all dubious about them really.
How many of his 50 or so winners do you think have been odds-on so far this season too by the way? |
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not sure,but the ride on coakley's horse at brioghton a cpl of weeks back was the nail in the coffin,he did EVERYTHING to make sure that horse got beat
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RozelKid 01 Sep 13 03:37
nothing to do with strength, if you don't take time to understand jockeys and horses then you wont understand. A girlfriend of mine is a work rider in deauville and she explained why Fallon is the best natural race rider of all Jockeys, its how he makes his strength used to maximum effect. Imagine you are on a swing, , you know when you get to that point where you use your weight just as you are about to rise to get more speed, well that is exactly what fallon does when race riding, you only have to look at him when he starts to wake up a horse. Its a physics thing ------------------- Never read so much RUBBISH - in all my life.   A SWING is usually either... BOLTED into a Plate - securely fixed at it's BASE - - or - [b]CONCRETED similarly into the ground - at it's BASE. The AXIS - at the TOP of the Swing - upon which the, "WEIGHT," is applied - in order to gain additional momentum ....CANNOT, therefore, MOVE - nor absorb that, "WEIGHT," - it usually being made of IRON - and, consequently, returns the extra Energy/thrust back down the chains to the Swing's seat.... thus increasing your Swing speed. By CONTRAST - a HORSE has 4 narrow, and fragile, legs - supporting half a ton of body bulk. As neither those LEGS - nor the horse's BACK - are NOT a 'fixed AXIS' .... Your, "PHYSICS," would imply that the extra Energy being sent by, "BUMPING," - would end up being dissipated ........ 'All over the place'. Some of the 'extra energy' may well, admittedly, result in a positive reaction from the horse, in some way - BUT, surely, a lot more of that 'extra energy' can/will result in the horse becoming unbalanced. As the saying goes .... 'They are NOT MACHINES' ................ unlike a SWING IS. |
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What you mean the one where he had the inside racing line as the whole field came over and Luke Morris cut him up and could have put him over the rail, that one?
Racing Post comments on Fallon's horse that day. 2nd 2¼ Banreenahreenkah (IRE) 2/1 3 9-1 Denis Coakley 65 Kieren Fallon Took keen hold, held up in touch in last pair, headway to press leader when squeezed for room over 5f out, ridden and effort over 2f out, went 2nd and hung left just inside final furlong, one pace after (op 3/1) Sporting Life's comments on Fallon's horse that day. 2nd (1) 2¼ 5 Banreenahreenkah (IRE) D J Coakley 3 9-1 K Fallon 2/1 Held up, headway 6f out, short of room against rail over 4f out, switched right 3f out, not much room and switched right over 1f out, hung left and went 2nd inside final furlong, no impression on winner opened 3/1. I don't mean to be rude here but maybe it seems pandora1963 at best you aren't seeing things with an open mind so are missing the obvious or at worse your race reading skills need a bit of a brush up.  Even Simon Holt in commentary diplomatically mentioned Morris "closing there door" on Fallon when if Fallon's on the rail where else can he go? He got his horse into a good position to make a challenge to win the race from and then switched and did the same again so two efforts from somebody supposedly not trying seems a bit strange and he was even short of room again so switched again in a race Holt summed up as messy, yet Fallon still beat everything else bar the winner, which wasn't Morris's horse either. |
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ima,i remember the race well,in the early part of the race he had the PERFECT position,in fact he was leading up the inside rail,then for whatever reason just decided to give it up...
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Fallon similar style to the immortal Sir Gordon Richards on the flat and Fred Winter over jumps each one of them a master at galvanising a tired horse - too many jockeys look pretty but IMO not effective. Fallon I admit has had his problems but many a racing lad down on his luck has received a helping hand from him.
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Fallon is one of the great jockeys and there are not too many of those.
He may have a few problems keeping a lid on himself but stopping horses is just a laughable nonsense. |
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I'm afraid pandora1963 you maybe don't remember it quite as well as you think and your perception of how you remember it is a little off, because for the first half of the race he held the horse up in stone last and then when they crossed over at the switchback part of the course he moved his mount up to the inner, but never held the lead although was in 2nd to the inner and got a bump from Morris on the way over and then he cut up Fallon once he (Fallon) had his horse positioned on the rail.
There were tyre tracks on the turf and as it was a sunny day the inside rail also cast a shadow on the grass too, which all acted as the perfect guide to show you just how far Morris came over and squeezed up Fallon, as I myself am saying as well as the Racing Post, Sporting Life and Simon Holt during commentary point out so I'd be surprised if we are all wrong. On an entirely different note, Novellist has won its last 3 races, all of which were Gr1 with 3 different jockeys up, so it really is more about the horses than the jockeys.......but what's with the outbreak of logic and honest commons sense in some of these more recent Fallon posts?  |
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Yes I agree with pandora1963
You’d have to say an experienced jockey was looking for trouble coming up the inside on a left hand turn at that stage of the race. Worse than that he seemed to be inviting trouble by restraining his mount instead of getting to the front where he wouldn’t get cut up. It was certainly not the route that a jockey would take when the money’s down. A very poor ride and that’s being kind. |
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fallon should still be in jail when he stopped top cee's years ago.
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LOL....Specsavers really do need to sponsor this forum as loads of jockeys come over and bag the rail at Brighton, just as Fallon did in this race and although he might never have had a clear lead in the race, he was at the very least upside's the leader before that one then cut him up when never being at least a length in front to be able to bag the rail for himself. Oh and in agreeing with pandora1963 here Dr Crippen means you are disagreeing with the professional race readers from the Post and Life.
Totally agree though about the Top Cees ride and despite supposedly being an apologist for Fallon I have said that was a dodgy ride all along. Having said that (and this is where I'll probably take some stick) he didn't actually stop the horse as in it was going to win and he then took action to prevent that, he just gave it a very easy ride and never put it in contention at any time because that day wasn't the horse's main target. Not that that makes it OK but Fallon is far from the only jockey to do that and the jails would be full of owners, jockeys and trainers if you put them all away in similar circumstances but he's Fallon so comes in for the special treatment that many of the other jockeys don't. |
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Top C's run at Newmarket before winning the Chester Cup very controversial at the time Am I correct in remembering Derek Thompson claiming that Fallon had told him the horse wasn't off. The ones who really had cause to complain were those who backed the horse at Newmarket , hope they got their money back in the Chester Cup.
Totally agree with ima-mazed66 all jockeys and all trainers are guilty of this offence , sometimes it works in a punters favour sometimes it doesn't.It is an old problem - going back some years one day Neville Crump was told if he didn't stop Teal the horse wouldn't 'be returning to his yard. The Jockey Arthur Thompson actually jumped off the horse - the pair then. went on to win the Grand National -none triers - like the poor will always be with us |
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Oh and in agreeing with pandora1963 here Dr Crippen means you are disagreeing with the professional race readers from the Post and Life.
Of course it doesn't mean that. You're the one who needs glasses, as well as an understanding of what's being written. |
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Portrack, you talk a lot of sense and with only 14 posts in 11 years, you should post on here a bit more.
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You can't have it both ways Dr Crippen, I'm saying very much the same thing as the Post and Life race readers that Fallon did nothing wrong and was squeezed up by Luke Morris when he (Fallon) was on the rail and had nowhere else to go, whereas pandora1963 was suggesting Fallon wasn't trying to win and you agreed with him, the clue to yourself here was when you said such things as "Worse than that he seemed to be inviting trouble by restraining his mount instead of getting to the front where he wouldn’t get cut up" and "It was certainly not the route that a jockey would take when the money’s down" so if the Post and Life are saying:
Racing Post comments on Fallon's horse that day. 2nd 2¼ Banreenahreenkah (IRE) 2/1 3 9-1 Denis Coakley 65 Kieren Fallon Took keen hold, held up in touch in last pair, headway to press leader when squeezed for room over 5f out, ridden and effort over 2f out, went 2nd and hung left just inside final furlong, one pace after (op 3/1) Sporting Life's comments on Fallon's horse that day. 2nd (1) 2¼ 5 Banreenahreenkah (IRE) D J Coakley 3 9-1 K Fallon 2/1 Held up, headway 6f out, short of room against rail over 4f out, switched right 3f out, not much room and switched right over 1f out, hung left and went 2nd inside final furlong, no impression on winner opened 3/1. Then they are giving their description and reasons as to what happened, which are valid ones that hindered Fallon's chances due to the riding actions of a rival jockey. You on the other hand are putting it down to non-existent Fallon skulduggery, hence you must be disagreeing with the Post and Life race readers......It's really not that complicated honestly. Fallon was actually upsides the leader when he was cut up and far from restraining his horse but then why let a minor detail such as the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory eh? |
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ima,if you watch the race,he got to the lead and was in no way cut up,he pulled his horse back,whate ever the racing post says
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You on the other hand are putting it down to non-existent Fallon skulduggery, hence you must be disagreeing with the Post and Life race readers...
How breathtakingly naive can you get? You don't think that either the RacingPost or the Sporting Life would write anything remotely libellous about a jockey's ride after the Top Cees court case. They've all been gagged. The fact that Falon carries such a big reputation as a good jockey makes the ride even more suspect. Cut up on the rails ffs. You’d think he’d never ridden there before. |
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Hi Paulbu,
Thanks for the vote of confidence - I seem to remember your quality posts . I got back on the forum when a search engine took me back to the Old Time Jockeys thread where yourself and GED were in conversation with Guardamar - I know him very well - we could both write a best seller about 1963. I had to assure GED that I an not Guardamar - I think I convinced him, I was to late to join in the conversation hopefully Guardamar will return.. He was responsible for a lot of the early success enjoyed by Frank Carr -we planned to set up training together in Franks old yard but they wouldn't 'renew the lease and built houses on it.. one of the walls was left intact and when I visited Malton my old mate Eric Bromilow showed me rings left in the wall where we used to tie the horses up..Quite a moving experience they are all that is left of an historic yard. |
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Portrack, it's all come back to me now, I think. Weren't you responsible for some enlightening contributions to the 'Piggott Stories' thread about nine years ago on the old forum ? I seem to recall us talking about Brig Robson in Darlington night clubs, Lester Piggott riding for Pat Rohan, being beaten when the money was down and then getting the race on a fanciful objection and such like. Am I right or is my old memory playing tricks on me ?
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Well remembered PAULBU -
I would make you probably right on that call. |
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Thanks, Onlooker. I couldn't be sure because I thought that Portrack had made at least 14 posts in the Piggott Stories thread or does the count only apply to the new forum ?
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Paulbu Onlooker
Yes I used to ramble on a bit on the old Piggott thread - nice to be remembered lads. As this is the Fallon thread maybe in Fallons defence I could reprise one of my old posts when Lester Piggott was going around the jockeys fixing a race before the start - I didn't have a ride in that particular race but rode the first winner on the card and watched it happen. It was arranged that E(Teddy)Carter would be allowed to win the race his mount backed from 8/1 to favourite . Piggotts mount drifting from odds on. Piggott looked like winning but swerved across the course and Lester actually come off. So even the great man was fallible - However before Lester sues me the race in question was a Charity Donkey Derby all the top jockeys were there and lot of bookies were standing , they made an involuntary contribution to charity through the fixed race. I think it was that York meeting when our good stayer Childe Harolde won the Yorkshire Cup |
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PAULBU
no doubt the night club will have been the la bamba, flamingo or worse still the bongo club opposite the old bus station. |
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ronnie rails
La Bamba and Titos at Stockton - La Bamba burnt down - Tito's was a good club until the Gaming Act forced them to separate the club from the Casino they then could not afford the cabarets and it become a disco. |
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portrack - I am assuming that you were attached to Bill Dutton's stable -
- and that you were an apprentice with him, therefore, when Childe Harolde won the Yorkshire Cup. That would/cpould make you either ... T O (7st) - or E B (6st) You won't be J Brace - because he rode Childe Harolde - but you may be D B (7st 6lb) |
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I think this is where we basically disagree then pandora1963 because I don't think Fallon ever really got the lead as such, or if he did it was by a minimal distance possibly on the nod and for a minimal amount of time like a stride or two because as far as I can tell he got upsides or "pressed" for the lead. I have watched the race and even pointed out how you can tell he was cut up by using the tyre tracks on the grass and the shadow of the running rail on the grass as a guide......Even if I were to go along and say he pulled his horse back though, isn't that what jockeys tend to do when they are being cut up anyway?
Both the Post and Life rightly say his horse made "headway to press leader when squeezed for room over 5f out" and "short of room against rail over 4f out, switched right 3f out, not much room and switched right over 1f out" so cut up, squeezed up, short of room, call it want you like but it all amounts to the same thing of him being well positioned on the rail upsides the leader before that leader cut him up. The video is on the ATR website, Brighton 20th August the 3:45. Luke Morris gives Fallon a bump on the way to coming across the course, then drifts into/intimates Fallon's horse causing it to spook and jink nearer the rail when he was racing around a horse's width off of it and then finally cuts him up when less than a length clear where the next bend begins.....that's quite a lot of specific detail there to have got wrong if I was wrong. First of all Dr Crippen, the key reason the Post or Life never flagged up Fallon's ride as dodgy is mainly because it wasn't. No of course I'm not breathtakingly naive enough to be unaware that journalists have to be careful with what they say in print or even verbally on TV, as these things are so hard to prove (and I've made that very point myself when others on here have called them gutless) but are you naive enough to think they wouldn't use certain phrases to allude to something dodgy, assuming there was anything in it to begin with? So let's say they thought a horse had deliberately been held up too far off the pace, had been "ridden" half heartedly so as not to have been ridden on its merits to obtain the best possible finishing position. Are you "breathtakingly naive" to be unaware that the use of language such as "ridden WELL off the pace" or "never dangerous or put in a position to challenge" or "tenderly ridden with minimal force but made late headway" would feature in their post-race description, leaving everyone to read between the lines but without the risk of any comebacks to themselves? So lets see what they did say then? Did they mentioned it being ridden WELL off the pace? No, they said: "held up in touch in last pair" Did they say it made no effort until late very on? No, they said: "headway to press leader when squeezed for room over 5f out" and "Held up, headway 6f out" Did they say handed with kid gloves and minimal effort and little attempt to challenge? No, they said: "ridden and effort over 2f out, went 2nd" and "went 2nd inside final furlong" Did they say it had a trouble-free run during the race? No, they said: "squeezed for room" and "short of room against rail" So did none of those things happen then? And now this one's all my own work, so despite getting cut up/squeezed up/shorted up as far out as 4-5f to go, did Fallon down tools and coast in in his own time, which would have been the perfect excuse to do so after being cut up? No, he switched around runners to try to make another effort to win the race and beat everything else bar the winner, which doesn't to me seem like the actions of a jockey not actually trying to win. |
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Kieran gallon ain't the go to jockey anymore if you want to land a touch.better up and coming jocks.simples as a lot of you are
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*fallon
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Onlooker - yes I was with Bill Dutton a gentleman of the old school. One day he was letting me out of the gallop gate we were both mounted I was riding Cleverchange a horse who had went a little crackers . It was thought hacking around with the boss might help. The boss kept his eye on my horse as he let me out Cleverchange could be quite scary and didn't notice Lady Beasley (wife of Pat Beasley) cantering up .
She thought the boss had shut the gate on her on purpose and told him in colourful language what he was -he just touched his cap and said 'And your a Lady.' We rode off leaving her behind the gate. Bill Dutton had a heart attack and died Christmas 1959 he had arranged a party at Bowers restaurant for the lads. Pat Rohan his son - in -law took over .Pat only a young man must have felt a bit like the new Man Utd manager after Fergie , if he does as well as Pat he will be fine.. |
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