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Anaglogs Daughter
28 May 13 23:53
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Date Joined: 05 Jan 10
| Topic/replies: 29,477 | Blogger: Anaglogs Daughter's blog

Stephen Pollard is currently Editor of the Jewish Chronicle and has written columns for several publications including The Times and the Daily Mail and maintained a lively Spectator blog. He is also the author of the controversial 2004 biography of David Blunkett, and co-authored A Class Act: The Myth of Britain's Classless Society, which was shortlisted for the Orwell Prize.

The power of Twitter: it can make a bookie pay up

By Stephen Pollard Sport Last updated: May 28th, 2013
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/stephenpollard/100219008/the-power-of-twitter-it-can-make-a-bookie-pay-up/

I don't have much in common with Sheikh Mohammed.

For one thing, I am editor of the Jewish Chronicle, and he is the Prime Minister and Vice President of the United Arab Emirates and monarch of Dubai. But we've shared something these past seven months.

We have both followed every twist and turn in the training of his horse, Dawn Approach, in its preparation for the 2000 Guineas earlier this month.

My interest was rather less direct than his. He was anticipating being the owner of the winner of the first Classic race of 2013. I was anticipating the success of a bet.

Last October, after Dawn Approach won a big two year old race, I backed him in a double to win the 2000 Guineas and Derby.

This post is not, however, about my amazing prescience and tipping ability. It is about the power of social media.

But to understand the story, I do need to give you the details of the bet – and thus of my amazing prescience and tipping ability.

The bet was a £25 each way double on Dawn Approach winning the 2000 Guineas at 4/1 and the Derby at 12/1. Should it come off, I stand to win £1825.

Dawn Approach won the 2000 Guineas easily, and is now the odds-on favourite for Saturday’s Derby.

As you can imagine, I have been eagerly anticipating the Derby.

Until last week. On Friday, I received this email from William Hill:


Dear Mr Pollard,

We are writing with regards to your recent bet on Dawn Approach to win both the 2000 Guineas and the Derby.

You have placed the bet as a standard each way double, however when bets are incorrectly accepted on accumulative antepost bets, using the same selection we settle at a special combined price.

As such the new price we are offering you on the bet you have placed is 15/1.

We understand that this is a shorter price than you were expecting, and as such offer our apologies with the option to settle both bets as singles.


Translated into English it meant that William Hill had decided – seven months after the bet was accepted, and nearly four weeks after the first leg won – that it shouldn’t have offered the odds that it was offering in October. And so it was unilaterally changing the odds for the double succeeding from 65/1 to 15/1.

There is, in betting, a concept known as ‘related contingency’. If two events are related and the chance of the second event happening is related to the first, then the odds offered against are not simply multiplied – a bookie will offer a special price. In other words, because the chance of Dawn Approach winning the Derby is that much greater having won the Guineas, and his price would contract, in advance of both events they would likely offer a much smaller price on the two events happening.

But similarly, from the punter’s perspective one of the key tools is spotting when you think a bookmaker has priced something wrongly – that you think he has underestimated the chance of it happening. So when I saw the combined odds last October of 65/1 – that was 4/1 and 12/1, both advertised on the William Hill site – I pounced.

Had they said within a few days that they had made a mistake – computer error and all that – then I’d have been annoyed, but mistakes happen.

But it took them seven months – and the first leg winning – before they noticed their ‘mistake’. Indeed, they didn’t even get in touch straight after the first leg. They waited another four weeks.

I wrote to their customer services. And for 3 days, not a word.

So I wrote to the CEO, Ralph Topping. I was polite:


Dear Mr Topping,

On 13 October 2012 I placed a £25ew double on Dawn Approach to win the 2000 Guineas and Derby.

Since his Guineas win, I have been counting the days to the Derby looking forward to – hopefully – winning.

Yesterday – over 7 months after the bet was placed, and weeks after the first leg won – I received the email below.

I am sure that you will be able to point me to small print that justifies your stand. But I would like to ask you to think, for one moment, about the ethics of your decision.

For seven months – seven months! – the bet stood. No one at any point mentioned anything about a mistake. Believe me, I have placed a number of bets in the past and then been contacted to be told that the price was a mistake. But after seven months? And, conveniently for William Hill, only after the first leg won, meaning that you might actually have to pay out.

The sums involved, in any case, are hardly earth shattering. For a small punter like me, they are amazing. But for William Hill they are chicken feed.

What we have here, in other words, is a bet struck in good faith, for a small sum, which stood for seven months – and then eight days before a possible payout, a decision  was taken to void it.

In any other walk of life you would surely agree such behaviour is outrageous.

I ask you please to reconsider.

Should you not, then I will consider it my duty to make the betting – and wider – public aware of how William Hill behaves.

That would not sit well with me, since I have always bet with you, as you will see from my account and have always thought you an honourable firm.

Yours,

Stephen Pollard

Again, not a word. I re-sent it. Not a word. Not even a response from an underling. Nothing.

And so I turned to Twitter. And everything changed.

On Sunday morning, I set out what had happened in a few pithy tweets. Over the course of the day, I was flooded with retweets and responses. From punters, from politicians, from journalists – from all sorts.

They pointed out that bookmaking depends on trust. And a bookie who retrospectively changes the odds is not a bookie to be trusted.

And they pointed to the self-inflicted PR disaster. First, in ignoring my polite emails. And second…

William Hill's social media team provided an object lesson in how to dig even deeper into a hole. Because I did, at last, start getting a response from William Hill: to my tweets, and those from others who tweeted the story. And boy, were they bad: spectacularly sneering – as if they realty had better things to do than waste their time on an idiot like me.

After I pointed out that their behaviour showed they couldn’t be trusted to honour a bet struck seven months ago, they replied:

“@WillHillBet: @stephenpollard Trust is built by adhering to our terms & rules which are we correct any obvious errors. The bet stands at the right price.”

When I said they had voided the bet, they replied: “For clarification, the bet is not void. It stands at the correct price of 15/1 or can be split into singles at marked odds”

And when I pointed out it took seven months for them to decide the bet was a mistake, they said: “It was accepted in error seven months ago but has only come to our attention since the first leg won.”

And that was it – the sum total of the response William Hill deigned to make to my emails and tweets.

With every new sneer, more people were jumping in.

Because of Twitter, and the immediacy of the support it can generate, a small potential payout to a few people over a bet was fast becoming a PR disaster, with the company’s social media team managing to make things worse with their tone and responses.

And then, last night, I received this:


Dear Mr Pollard,

I’m pleased to be writing to you to confirm that William Hill WILL honour your bet on Dawn Approach to win both the 2000 Guineas and the Derby at the full odds at which your bet was originally placed.

This decision actually contradicts our own rules around the placement of bets with related contingencies, but because your bet was placed in goodwill we have agreed that our response to this situation should also reflect that goodwill intention.

On that basis, we hope you enjoy the big race this weekend and I’d like to thank you again for choosing to bet with William Hill.

Had they had the least idea of decent customer relations – and decent PR – they would have said, from the start, that while the bet was accepted in error, as a goodwill gesture – given that the error was not spotted for seven months – they will honour it.

Instead, they have now convinced a large number of people that they can’t be trusted, and that the only reason they have acted with honour is because they have been forced to do so by a Twitterstorm.

There are any number of lessons from this. My mother would probably tell me that the biggest is not to bet. But I'm grown up now, so it's a vice I will live with. The biggest, surely, is that customer relations really do matter. Had they bothered responding to my initial emails, I might never have taken to twitter – and so alerted so many people to the story. Then again, simply contacting me without changing their tune wouldn't have done any  good.  But thanks to twitter, they've not only had to change their mind – they've also portrayed themselves as obstinate and sneering.

And because of a bet which, if Dawn Approach bombs on Saturday, will cost them precisely nothing.
Pause Switch to Standard View W.Hill & that Dawn Approach Ante-Post...
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Report millhouse May 29, 2013 12:05 AM BST
Whoever made the call to hope that Dawn Approach didn't win the 2000 Guineas before contacting the customers concerned knows very little about PR, imo...
Report Ramruma May 29, 2013 5:26 AM BST
It has always been outrageous that when a firm accepts a bet, it does not really accept it. Instead, it takes possession of the bet with a vague promise to look at it once the result is known, and only then decide whether or not it will take the bet.
Report elisjohn May 29, 2013 5:29 AM BST
wonder if they voided or returned bets on frankel 2000 , derby double, im certain many did that
Report prism May 29, 2013 8:22 AM BST
This has been badly handled by Hills. And very badly managed PR-wise thereafter.
Report ST NICHOLAS ABBEY May 29, 2013 8:54 AM BST
I'm glad that you have sorted the bet however them offering you 15/1 was a disgrace as Dawn Approach was 12/1 just to win the Derby at the time of your bet.. i do think though that your bet would have not attracted there attention if DA had only been placed in the 2000 and if placed in the derby then i am  sure you would have got the place double IE returns of 200.00 but we will never know.these bets will always be taken in error as staff are just not clued up enough which is down to the poor training they receive and don't understand that it is related and that's down to the training i guess as most people in betting shops these days only have to turn a key in the door put the papers up empty fobs and make tea or coffee ............. iv worked in betting shops for 30 years + and mostly independent and when we get Related bets on horse etc we use the chart that works out the 1st goal/correct score chart which is much more fair i reckon IE van persie 1st goal 4/1 man United to win 3-1 12/1 would be on average between 28/1 - 33/1 it would also be around that price in all HILLS shops ..... its very similar to the related DA bet IE one part going on to the other and a fair price and how they come up with 15/1 is/was a rip off ............. all related bets in my opinion should be done this way it works with no problems on the score cast prices and punters accept it so take note hills ETC and get the price and how to create the right price ...... there must be thousands of bets unclaimed around the country if they are splitting stakes on related horse bets that have been split due to staff error .....now i wonder what price HILLS etc will offer me on Joyeuse to win 2014 Oak - 1000 Guineas @ the moment its about 14/1 for the 1000 guineas and 20/1 for the oaks .. the double price is 251/1 using the chart the price would be roughly 100 - 125/1 ........... hills i guess using there system or what ever way they decide would properly be 33/1 if your lucky PATHETIC PRICE..............
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 9:07 AM BST
Mr Pollard not the innocent he's trying to portray, W/Hill would never advertise 65/1 dawn approach to win both,
  but, by taking advantage of poorly trained staff managed to delude them into laying multiple odds,
  special odds on related bets have been around for donkey years.
  even recreational punters are aware of that.

not defending w/hill, bad management, but still sharp practice.
Report johnnywilkinson May 29, 2013 9:18 AM BST
I DEFINETLEY AGREE MR.DENNIS
Report ReaseHeath May 29, 2013 9:27 AM BST
he's a journalist with 6,000 Twitter followers - the William Hill social media team need to get with the programme.
Report ReaseHeath May 29, 2013 9:29 AM BST
also, they now surely have to honour the bet for anybody else who placed it - inconceivable that he's the only one?
Report johnnywilkinson May 29, 2013 9:33 AM BST
reaseheath WADDA YA THINKS GOING TO HAPPEN
Report johnnywilkinson May 29, 2013 9:35 AM BST
I WONDER IF MR.POLLARDS SHUT UP OR IS HE CARRYING ON THE FIGHT FOR THE REST OF THEM
Report ReaseHeath May 29, 2013 9:38 AM BST
yep, his Twitter feed says they've agreed to pay out everyone who has had the bet, fair enough.

Notwithstanding the poor staff training, you'd think they'd have a system which flagged it up when staff try to process the bet, presumably that's what would happen if you tried to place it online.
Report holywell May 29, 2013 9:40 AM BST
Barry,

If Mr Pollard was not aware of odds on related bets he has been nothing other than naïve, we don't know.

William Hill need to be looking at the reason why their staff member took the bet, was he / she poorly trained ?, I'm sure their staff will be trained to encourage their customers to use the terminals possibly at the expense of ensuring they are aware of the rules of sports betting. Does the current staffing levels mean this type of error will regularly slip through the net ? How do they manage future sports betting issues ?, this one has been badly managed.
Report ST NICHOLAS ABBEY May 29, 2013 10:15 AM BST
related bets as i am  sure you all know have been taken for donkey years and will continue to be taken regardless of the training staff are given ...there's nothing wrong with this type of bet its the price that's the problem as i said in my earlier post bookmakers should come up with a chart similar to the scorecast chart .... this would then stop all the confusion regarding the price its not rocket science and easy to do and with a bit of common sense most managers would be able to explain this to PUNTERS and STAFF
Report johnnywilkinson May 29, 2013 10:18 AM BST
SPOT ON ...SNA
Report Cauthenmeister May 29, 2013 10:26 AM BST
Could this particular bet have actually been placed online, pretty sure not many over the counter customers leave their
email address.
Report johnnywilkinson May 29, 2013 10:33 AM BST
IF IT GETS BEAT WHATS THAT GOTTA DO WITH IT ....IF IT WINS THEY DRAW
Report parispike May 29, 2013 10:49 AM BST
The OP said he spotted the prices on the WH website. Not clear if bet placed by that channel.If it was then WH don't hav a leg to stand on do they.......?
Report Huggy May 29, 2013 11:01 AM BST
If the bet was placed in a shop,it would have had to be transelated,this would of alerted the cashier that something was amiss.
Report Anaglogs Daughter May 29, 2013 11:09 AM BST
Stephen Pollard ‏@stephenpollard They've agreed to pay out on everyone who had the bet. Agree I probably had a head start but others can tweet too
Report Pilsudski May 29, 2013 12:21 PM BST
Barry Dennis --  Is it Mr Pollard's fault that the staff are poorly trained ?
Report Anaglogs Daughter May 29, 2013 2:21 PM BST
He's in the bathroom sinking the bismark,  i'll give him a shout ..Barrrryyyyyyy
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 2:26 PM BST
pilsudski, not Mr Pollards fault, palpable error is a rule for exactly that, staff error and stroke pullers.

just got 12 England to win ashes should have been 1/2 shall I try to claim it?
Report millhouse May 29, 2013 2:30 PM BST
Surely the interesting part of this is how worried they are about the impact that media platforms they don't own or control can have on their business.

Obviously in our industry, where the media is institutionally corrupt when it comes to the bookmakers, they can shaft punters all day long.

But when the underhand and cynical manner in which they routinely behave gets into the mainstream they back track faster than Vodkatini after the tapes have gone up...
Report millhouse May 29, 2013 2:33 PM BST
Barry, you are right, obviously, but it was cynical and extremely badly advised to wait and see if Dawn Approach won the Guineas before they decided there was a problem, imo...
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 2:37 PM BST
millhouse, agree 100%, when did this palpable error first get recognised, if before guineas, very poor P/R
Report TCat May 29, 2013 2:40 PM BST
Surely that's the point. The fact notification of the error was given after the first leg of the bet means the bet should be honoured.
Report millhouse May 29, 2013 2:40 PM BST
I think we can be pretty sure they knew all about it Barry - clearly they figured they were odds on not to have to worry about the problem any more after the Guineas had been run...
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 2:45 PM BST
better P/R. keep stuhm pay the geezer if it wins and politely tell him to off
Report TCat May 29, 2013 3:13 PM BST
Fair comment BR. Conversely I had a problem with a bet with the same bookmaker. I was a good loser over a period of years but was let down badly. Havent bet with them since.
Report Anaglogs Daughter May 29, 2013 5:47 PM BST
Everyone knows the bet shouldn't have been priced like that but any pity for WH went straight out the window

William Hill's social media team provided an object lesson in how to dig even deeper into a hole. Because I did, at last, start getting a response from William Hill: to my tweets, and those from others who tweeted the story. And boy, were they bad: spectacularly sneering – as if they realty had better things to do than waste their time on an idiot like me.

After I pointed out that their behaviour showed they couldn’t be trusted to honour a bet struck seven months ago, they replied:

“@WillHillBet: @stephenpollard Trust is built by adhering to our terms & rules which are we correct any obvious errors. The bet stands at the right price.”

When I said they had voided the bet, they replied: “For clarification, the bet is not void. It stands at the correct price of 15/1 or can be split into singles at marked odds”

And when I pointed out it took seven months for them to decide the bet was a mistake, they said: “It was accepted in error seven months ago but has only come to our attention since the first leg won.”

And that was it – the sum total of the response William Hill deigned to make to my emails and tweets.
Report ReaseHeath May 29, 2013 6:20 PM BST
be interesting to know what happened in previous years e.g. Camelot last year and the polar opposite case of Frankel the year before.

hardly an unusual bet, I would have thought.
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 7:02 PM BST
dont overlook the fact that the punter would know he was pulling a stroke
Report Anaglogs Daughter May 29, 2013 7:07 PM BST
Bookmakers are in too much of a rush to get to the future. I'm sure none of your staff 20-30 years ago would have even entertained them. Most people who applie for a job in a betting shop around my time 70s-80s would be asked what's a bottle at a neves to ruof. You had to have some semblance of an iota about horse racing and if you didn't you started by marking the board. Now you neither know how to work out the odds or even know what Arkle-Red Rum-Kauto Star-Frankel were. So i have no pity on them. Feck them all.
Report swift-tuttle May 29, 2013 7:07 PM BST
is there a simple rule here then?

ante-post multiples involving the same horse are not allowed
Report steviebees May 29, 2013 7:25 PM BST
How, in fairness, could the price for Dawn Approach to win both races be just 15/1 when the horse was 12/1 to win just one leg of the double? And you suggest this gentleman was pulling a fast one Mr Dennis. I suggest you take a closer look at Hills' behaviour  in this instance at initially offering such an obviously meagre price.
Report Banned_Banks May 29, 2013 7:40 PM BST
Where do you draw the line here?

What is to stop a fraudulent group paying for a person to work at a bookmakers and take all dodgy related bets etc?

If you allow this type of thing to happen all you do is encourage the bookmakers to sack the staff for being incompetent otherwise you can never stop it.
Report ReaseHeath May 29, 2013 7:50 PM BST
presumably they can use their Business Analytics solution to trawl their databases for all such bets placed over the last x years and void them?

Personally I think you should be looking to draw the line before the first leg of the bet wins - not that difficult for a FTSE 100 company to run an exception report and remove the problem at source.

Whether the originator of the bet was trying it on or not, he placed the bet last October.

If I were a Hills shareholder, this escapade would not fill me with confidence in their Business Systems.
Report barry dennis May 29, 2013 7:52 PM BST
the sp double is about 4/1, which makes 15/1 look generous.

As I said earlier, Willihill have acted appallingly.


   but every punter in the world is aware that the bet is related and impossible to get multiple odds.

please get me cook top batter 5/1 swan top wickettaker6/1 and england to win first test 7/4£500 patent
Report swift-tuttle May 29, 2013 7:54 PM BST
not a very good comparison Barry
same event
Report steviebees May 29, 2013 8:11 PM BST
What a pathetic defence in saying what the sp double price is likely to be 3 days prior to the 2nd leg 7 months after the bet is struck. If that is the level of intelligence I'm trying to have a discussion with, I withdraw. If you had a bookmakers shop I'd certainly avoid it like the plague. Of course the price of settlement shouldn't be the accumulative odds on the 2 events, but to suggest 15/1 is fair is ridiculous in the extreme in my opinion.
Report TCat May 29, 2013 9:13 PM BST
I'll just have the single 5/1 about Cook, thanks
Report parispike May 29, 2013 9:14 PM BST
Banned Banks in fantasist mode tonight. Cretinous suggestion.
Report Banned_Banks May 30, 2013 8:06 AM BST
Parispike in "I really don't understand the point being made" shocker.

For the less mentally adept I will spell it out a little more clearly.

If firms are made to stand by more errors then that opens the door to fraud. Staff can offer bets/prices to their mates that the firm aren't laying knowing that the bets will stand. The only way the firm can then stop this is to sack the staff.

If on the other hand the bets are voided or settled at the correct price it would stop the staff being fraudulent as there would be no point and those who were just incompetent could be better trained.

If this isn't done you are encouraging chancers to ply their trade and get inexperienced staff sacked.

Parispike that may not be an issue to you however in this current economic climate I would not want to contribute to anyone else losing their job. Perhaps if you were in their position neither would you.
Report siralex May 30, 2013 8:25 AM BST
can see your point bb but i would like to see the staff being trained so they are aware of this sort of thing. they have to sit on the fobt and learn a new game every day, why not spend that time learning about rule 4's, related bets, each way bets etc etc.
i have been working away from home and whatever bookies i venture into i am jumped upon as a new face and immediately offered a drink, some food and a go on the machines. lets just say the reply lets them know exactly what i think about fobts.
most staff dont have a clue about betting, they spend half their day watching music channels or texting friends so their is no excuse for not learning their trade.
Report parispike May 30, 2013 8:32 PM BST
We know th theoretical possibility BB but really......
Report zilzal1 May 30, 2013 8:40 PM BST
Pollard imo knew what he was up to for a start.

Surely, as ive read this bet was placed online, its hardly Hadron Collider stuff to stop the same horse being entered twice in a double at the odds and moved onto a special odds box

Agree with others, staff in general at Bookmakers now range from ok to bloody abysmal regarding anything odds related, you can easily see if this is replicated in other industries that its no wonder we're in a right old mess.
Report ronnie rails May 30, 2013 8:48 PM BST
siralex

the shops in my area are doing very badly on the fobts, in the next couple of weeks each member of staff will receive a phone call from a cluster manager doing a quiz on how much we know about each of the fob games, the quiz will have 20 questions including such questions as how many features real king potty has, what is the top prize for cops and robbers, no prize for getting them all right but a reprimand if you don't.

Sadly the OTC is going down the pan anything said? not a dicky bird.
Report mr crisp May 30, 2013 8:56 PM BST
i think most people will agree that the most cringe worthy aspect of this whole affair
is that no  attempt was made to question the validaty of this bet until the first leg was won
if dawn approach had immedietly after the guineas been withdrawn from the derby would hills have contacted punters and offered to settle the bet as singles no it would have been deemed one of the perils of antepost betting
Report the hairy hotdog May 31, 2013 6:36 AM BST
Is this topic some sort of a joke....?

So Mr Pollard , you expect people to believe that after joining Betfair just over 3 years ago and posting over 28000 posts , what's that 30 per day , including this quote from another of your incredibly long , copy and paste topics...

" We were often asked to lay horses for owners at race meetings nothing of biblical proportion but usually a couple of hundred or so  usual excuses were ''He hasn't eaten up this morning'' or ''She missed a weeks training last week. "

So from the above quote , one can only imagine that you were or worked as a bookie years ago , and you obviously read a lot of stuff about horse racing and betting , because you post everything onto this forum for the viewing pleasure of... Who knows...!!

So for you to pretend that you had never heard of " related contingency " is ridiculous , you are obviously trying it on , even a relative new comer to betting knows this...

The more interesting question on this topic is.. How many times did you write this actual bet out , and how many bookmakers did you attempt to get this bet placed with , until you finally found a cashier that was busy/unaware to actually take your bet...?

I'm guessing about 17 times , and how some of these people who've posted their support on here stand for this rubbish , well I don't know...

Anyway it's been a few hours since you copy and pasted an article on this forum , chop chop....
Report the hairy hotdog June 1, 2013 7:23 AM BST
The big day has arrived , i wonder what your next " oblivious to the rules of betting " move is gonna be..?

We on here and your 6000 followers await with baited breath...  :-D
Report the hairy hotdog June 1, 2013 7:38 AM BST
Forgot to say , lets all hope that Dawn Approach gets beat , so its a victory for good over evil , and that people like yourself dont get away with the bullying tactics of having 6000 twitter followers , to help them perform an action of a pathetic conman...
Report swift-tuttle June 1, 2013 7:40 AM BST
I repeat my question - it has not been answered by the bookmaker side

Why is there not a simple rule? That ante-post multiple bets cannot involve the same horse over different races?


This would lessen operator error and simple validation software could even be introduced to identify at the point of input.
Report the hairy hotdog June 1, 2013 7:46 AM BST
i dont think that was the subject of this topic swift-tuttle , the poster wanted to let everyone who has half a brain know that he's an expert at getting an illegal bet through the system at probably his twentieth attempt ,with the power of his twitter followers...

Rules are Rules , why is it money back on here if its a tie in cricket..? theres a seperate market , as there was for the double ,  its the rules , rules he obviously knew an tried and tried to take advantage of , unfortunately he was successful , more fool William Hill , but at least he's played this card now and wont get away with it again...
Report elisjohn June 1, 2013 7:51 AM BST
my discusson with betfred employ yesterday,
  hello can I have 25/1 the lark please, NO ITS 18/1
  no its 25/1 now pricewise between 9.00 9.15
     THE PRICE IS 18/1, SINCE 12 HOURS
   look its 25/1 on the board
  ITS 18/1
  Can you please phone ho or someone

NO WEVE ONLY BEEN OPENED 3 WEEKS AND PHONE NOT WORKING AND IVE ALREADY USED 150 QUID ON MY MOBILE
do you know what pricewise is
YES. WE DO THEM 20 MINS BEFORE EVERY RACE  .Laugh       
I said thank and went, whats the point
Report swift-tuttle June 1, 2013 7:52 AM BST
theres a seperate market , as there was for the double ,

Are you saying that there was a special price for the double at the time of placement of the bet?
Report lead on June 1, 2013 8:05 AM BST
hairy hotdog,you seem to be under the misapprehension that the OP(Anaglog's Daughter) is the subject of his own post(Stephen Pollard)
Report the hairy hotdog June 1, 2013 8:07 AM BST
Well if he'd ask i'm sure a phone call would have sourced a price for the double , after all you can bet on your son playing for England , your marriage lasting 50 years(gulp) , you can bet on anything...

but you can't take 4/1 and 12/1 on 2 events that are related and just multiply them , everyone knows that...
Report the hairy hotdog June 1, 2013 8:11 AM BST
Lead on , if thats the case then i apologise , but my point about Stephen Pollard still stands....
Report Kelly June 1, 2013 8:16 AM BST
Always hassly , related contingency bets .

However if Dawn Approach was 12/1 for the Derby , 15/1 the doudble is the real scandal in their offer . Bearing in mind that 4/1 was decent odds for the Guineas , 7 months ago you would have pencilled in Dawn at 4/1 at least for a Derby win , even though it had won the Guineas .  So an offer of 24/1 would have been reasonable , as against a 1/5 odd for a Guineas win .

Assuming it was a computer driven bet , would have thought that their systems people would have disqualified the bet before / during the initial attempt to plasce the bet .  Antepost that must be as basic as avoiding any hassle due to millenium date considerations etc . First lesson in writing computer programs when I was learing Fortran and Cobol .  Shoddy PR etc as well .
Report 545APG June 1, 2013 8:16 AM BST
This fella who had the double sounds no better than the pencil man

I think Hills should have stood their ground
Report TheVis June 1, 2013 8:26 AM BST
Pollard has clearly pulled a fast one there can be no doubt, but the bet should never have been taken in the first place.  Online systems should have the code built in to stop these kind of doubles and the vast majority do.

However, as has been said, online bet would have been flagged up somewhere in advance and Hills should have corrected before first race. 

I wonder if Pollard will take up the crusade now that his online account has been closed or restricted to pennies?
Report 545APG June 1, 2013 8:13 PM BST
What did his double pay?
Report elisjohn June 1, 2013 8:19 PM BST
thing is though it wasn't expected that even if he won 2000 that derby was on the agenda.
Report Anaglogs Daughter June 1, 2013 8:23 PM BST

the hairy hotdog     31 May 13 06:36 
Is this topic some sort of a joke....?

So Mr Pollard , you expect people to believe that after joining Betfair just over 3 years ago and posting over 28000 posts , what's that 30 per day , including this quote from another of your incredibly long , copy and paste topics...

" We were often asked to lay horses for owners at race meetings nothing of biblical proportion but usually a couple of hundred or so  usual excuses were ''He hasn't eaten up this morning'' or ''She missed a weeks training last week. "

So from the above quote , one can only imagine that you were or worked as a bookie years ago , and you obviously read a lot of stuff about horse racing and betting , because you post everything onto this forum for the viewing pleasure of... Who knows...!!

So for you to pretend that you had never heard of " related contingency " is ridiculous , you are obviously trying it on , even a relative new comer to betting knows this...

The more interesting question on this topic is.. How many times did you write this actual bet out , and how many bookmakers did you attempt to get this bet placed with , until you finally found a cashier that was busy/unaware to actually take your bet...?

I'm guessing about 17 times , and how some of these people who've posted their support on here stand for this rubbish , well I don't know...

Anyway it's been a few hours since you copy and pasted an article on this forum , chop chop....


"You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Well, who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who the feck do you think you're talkin' to?"Cool

So my name is a Mr Pollard? Mmmm a very popular Irish name indeed. Ya got the wrong chap Mr Topping or may i call you Ralph...Ralph..Ralph...Ralphy boy . .well how is it going my old mucker anyone want to lodge some bricks . . You got the wrong Guy Guv i am definitely not Jewish...Might be as tight as one but a Roman Catholic not a **** . .
Report zilzal1 June 1, 2013 9:06 PM BST
Its probably the best result for all concerned here

Hills for either not having the staff to notice the bet BEFORE the Guineas and then contacting punters afterwards, or hoping he'd lose the 2000 and getting all the bad publicity.

Or mr Pollard, who imo seems to know enough to get a sneaky one on, kicks up a fuss, gets a right result through social media.

So Hills havent come out of it well publicity wise and despite all efforts, Mr Pollards done his moneyCool

Oh and if he says he's "Laid it off" you can be sure he's been trying it on
Report comingupthehill June 1, 2013 9:22 PM BST
the related event odds are wrong and always in favour of the bookie.as they give you the odds of the first event times by the odds of the 2nd event AFTER the first event as finnished ,but surely if you place the bet before both events then you should get a better price for the 2nd event rather than the new odds of the 2nd event that have the fact the horse won the first event factored in .

i believe the fair odds should be half inbetween both outcomes ,so in this case it should be
wrong related double was 65/1
correct related double was 15/1
so the fair odds of a pre predicted related double should be 40/1 - half way between the 2 doubles.

the punter must be given recognition for predicting both results, not the odds for the 2nd event with built in knowledge that the horse as won the 1st event.
Report saxon farm June 1, 2013 9:39 PM BST
^
NO FISHING on this thread.
Report ST NICHOLAS ABBEY June 1, 2013 11:58 PM BST
as i have said on a earlier post NOTHING  wrong with the bet it was the price that's wrong, how they can offer 15/1 the double when DA was just 12/1 for the derby is beyonD belief and the trader who came up with that price wants to go back to school .....ALL BOOKMAKERS should have a chart similar to the scorecast chart (1st player to score/correct score )van percy 4/1 1st goal and man utd to win 3-1  12/1 would NOT be 15/1 more like 33/1 maybe even 40/1 ........so how can they quote 15/1 is beyond belief ................. a HORSECAST chart would stop all this nonsence
Report swift-tuttle June 2, 2013 8:35 AM BST
I think you are talking about a different kind of relation with a scorecast because it is the same event and the true related contingency kicks in i.e. a goal has been scored so there must be a first goalscorer

The price for the Guineas / derby double with the same horse should be a matter of judgement for a trader imo
Report elisjohn June 2, 2013 8:46 AM BST
agree swift, say sea the stars and dawn app were exactly same prices for gns and derby, then imo sts double should be much shorter, as he would be likelier to run in derby and have a stronger chance of winning, so yes the same horsecast price wouldn't really work.
Report comingupthehill June 2, 2013 9:07 AM BST
the fairest odds, should be double SP on the 2nd related event ,this builds in a reduction(if any )for the bookmaker and a recognition for the punter who rightly predicts the horse winning the 2nd event prior to the 1st event.

bookmakers should take these bets if punters want them - why not.as SNA says the price is the problem ,bookies cant gave you a hindsight price on the 2nd event after the 1st event as finnished.

surely these bets have been to IBAS ,how anyone at IBAS as ruled in favour of the bookies view is very bias,yet the standing rule is the punter gets the new market odds - given a fair hearing it would be easy to win any case ,as the weight of arguement here clearly lies with the punter.
Report swift-tuttle June 2, 2013 9:33 AM BST
Incidentally, this relationship between the Guineas and the Derby is not so clear imo. At the early stage of the horses development, there are bound to be question marks even after the Guineas (as there was yesterday).

Also, what if it is a different horse in both events? There could still be a relationship, cast your mind back to the year when Brigadier Gerard won the Guineas and Mill Reef won the Derby. After the Guineas the concensus was that Mill Reef (in defeat) had run a very good Derby trial. If someone had both of those different horses in an ante-post double before the Guineas, would they have received full multiplied odds?
Report elisjohn June 2, 2013 12:58 PM BST
good example of this kind of double, I see ruler of the world 2/1 hills for leger and 11/2 for arc, ok nowif you asked for that double to come up I bet hills wouldn't give you more than 8/1, but in all reality     anyone should give you bloody 33/1 I would , the chances of him running in both is very unlikely let alone winning both. this is where a horsecast wouldn't work
Report Pleasegivemeanailedontip June 2, 2013 2:00 PM BST
Shouldnt even be classed as a related bet as one outcome doesnt affect the other (Price is obviously affected after the first but its antepost so thats irrelevant).
If bookies can lay off say, DA for guinness and ROTW for Derby at their correct antepost prices then they shouldnt try to pretend that a DA double is 'cheating' them in anyway. The 12/1 already includes the chance of him winning other races along the way.
Report Anaglogs Daughter June 2, 2013 6:53 PM BST
Mask slips to show betting's ugly truth

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/hanging-on-their-every-word-29313999.html

IT seemed like a good day's work for quick-witted punters last October when availing of juicy odds of 64/1 about the Jim Bolger-trained Dawn Approach completing the Guineas-Derby double. The price was on offer from the bookmaker William Hill: a combination of 4/1 to land the Guineas and 12/1 to prevail at Epsom. The bets were struck and accepted, apparently, in good faith. Seven months later, all hell broke loose.

The issue and solution are instantly apparent here. Some time after the bets were placed, before the Guineas had been run, William Hill should have contacted the punters and pointed out its error, offering a refund or bets recalibrated at more realistic odds, 20/1 or thereabouts. They would be sorry for their customers' troubles. Mistakes happen and the punter loses out. That's just how the game works.

Instead, it took them seven months, a week before the Derby, before they got in touch, offering revised odds at a risible 15/1 or, tweaking their funny bones even further, two single bets in place of the double. Unfortunately for the bookie, one of the punters, a British journalist and editor of the Jewish Chronicle, Stephen Pollard, wasn't going to be mollified. Especially on such stingy terms.

Pollard wrote to Hill's customer service and then to the company's CEO, Ralph Topping, but failed to receive even the courtesy of a response. So he turned to Twitter instead and began stamping his feet in anger. And pretty soon others started stamping their feet in anger too and the cacophony finally woke the bookie from his slumber. A PR scuffle was about to ensue with William Hill, effectively, stuck in the starting stalls.

Lesson number one for the self-styled world's largest bookmaker: never try to reason with aggrieved, righteous punters through Twitter. Basically suggesting Pollard accept his medicine, Hill's clumsy response was made to look more curt and insensitive than it needed to be, in front of an audience of millions. The story had only one possible ending. The bookie caved. Pollard's bet stood.

In a way, though, we should probably applaud William Hill and its appalling handling of a situation the bookmaker itself created. In getting so ruthlessly exposed, we got a glimpse of the true face of the industry and it's not the smiling, cheerful one that beckons you into clean, modern shops, offering free coffee and custard creams, bamboozling you with all kinds of special offers and making you feel like a dullard when you walk out some time later without your pockets bulging from all the easy profit-sharing schemes on offer.

Every so often the mask slips and the ugly truth is revealed. Like when a memo from Ivan Yates to his Celtic Bookmakers' staff was intercepted, warning them to be on the look-out for sharks (ie winners). Or when Paddy Power appeared on Liveline to tackle a punter whose crime had been to actually win money off the firm and, for his temerity, had his account shut down.

In there lies the reality. Behind the smiley, punters' pal exterior lie ruthless, bottom-line pursuers who loathe winners and those clever clogs, like Pollard, they suspect of pulling a fast one. They prefer losers and the vulnerable who will return day after day to help bump up their share prices. Let's not ever forget that.
Report comingupthehill June 2, 2013 7:32 PM BST
hills did nothing wrong here as far as the rules are concerned,also linking winning accounts being closed with this bet is unfair on hills.they messed up the PR but thats all.all long term punters know you cant have related bets in doubles/trebles etc.the only issue here is the price ,hills want to give the customers the worst possible ,but in their eyes correct ,price.

question if dawn approach would of lead the guineas by 10L but faded badly in last 100 yards and just won by a nose,then ran in the dante and tailed of last because it didnt stay - but then still ran in the derby and was priced up at 25/1 - would the customer of been given the 12/1(65/1 double) or would they have give him the 25/1.

or

if on the day dawn approach drift from 2/1 to 14/1 would he have got the 2/1 ,12/1 or 14/1 ,i cant see how they can give him a price other than SP once they allowed  the bet to stand.
Report minardi June 2, 2013 8:08 PM BST
Just out of interest can you place a double on a football team to win both the league and the FA cup ???
Report elisjohn June 2, 2013 8:10 PM BST
yes, and I don't know how that can be related
Report minardi June 2, 2013 8:23 PM BST
Easy elisjohn - you place the bet at say 100-1 on for example newcastle but then they get bought by massive owners and bring in much better players so effectively the team improves overnight. I know its less likely than with horse racing where the improvement is unknown but they are technically related  -it's the level of "relatdness" that is the question.
Report elisjohn June 2, 2013 8:43 PM BST
that's the trouble, in the past years you had proper bookies , now traders haven't a clue about events theyre just accountants . see my example of ruler of the world, traders now bwouldn't know anything about the leger and arc , we all know that theyre only 3 weeks between the 2, but do traders actually know what an arc is
Report lead on June 2, 2013 8:51 PM BST
is that virtual racing,sir?
Report spyker June 3, 2013 9:56 AM BST
H1lls hand out custard cremes? I'm off down to the new 1 just opened.......
Report BigU2fan June 3, 2013 10:17 AM BST
Well done on exposing and embarrassing them how you did - sorry Dawn Approach didn't win for you. Hope you layed it on here.
If this has been covered on here apologies. I've only read OP
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