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Anaglogs Daughter
28 May 13 23:53
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Stephen Pollard is currently Editor of the Jewish Chronicle and has written columns for several publications including The Times and the Daily Mail and maintained a lively Spectator blog. He is also the author of the controversial 2004 biography of David Blunkett, and co-authored A Class Act: The Myth of Britain's Classless Society, which was shortlisted for the Orwell Prize.

The power of Twitter: it can make a bookie pay up

By Stephen Pollard Sport Last updated: May 28th, 2013
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/stephenpollard/100219008/the-power-of-twitter-it-can-make-a-bookie-pay-up/

I don't have much in common with Sheikh Mohammed.

For one thing, I am editor of the Jewish Chronicle, and he is the Prime Minister and Vice President of the United Arab Emirates and monarch of Dubai. But we've shared something these past seven months.

We have both followed every twist and turn in the training of his horse, Dawn Approach, in its preparation for the 2000 Guineas earlier this month.

My interest was rather less direct than his. He was anticipating being the owner of the winner of the first Classic race of 2013. I was anticipating the success of a bet.

Last October, after Dawn Approach won a big two year old race, I backed him in a double to win the 2000 Guineas and Derby.

This post is not, however, about my amazing prescience and tipping ability. It is about the power of social media.

But to understand the story, I do need to give you the details of the bet – and thus of my amazing prescience and tipping ability.

The bet was a £25 each way double on Dawn Approach winning the 2000 Guineas at 4/1 and the Derby at 12/1. Should it come off, I stand to win £1825.

Dawn Approach won the 2000 Guineas easily, and is now the odds-on favourite for Saturday’s Derby.

As you can imagine, I have been eagerly anticipating the Derby.

Until last week. On Friday, I received this email from William Hill:


Dear Mr Pollard,

We are writing with regards to your recent bet on Dawn Approach to win both the 2000 Guineas and the Derby.

You have placed the bet as a standard each way double, however when bets are incorrectly accepted on accumulative antepost bets, using the same selection we settle at a special combined price.

As such the new price we are offering you on the bet you have placed is 15/1.

We understand that this is a shorter price than you were expecting, and as such offer our apologies with the option to settle both bets as singles.


Translated into English it meant that William Hill had decided – seven months after the bet was accepted, and nearly four weeks after the first leg won – that it shouldn’t have offered the odds that it was offering in October. And so it was unilaterally changing the odds for the double succeeding from 65/1 to 15/1.

There is, in betting, a concept known as ‘related contingency’. If two events are related and the chance of the second event happening is related to the first, then the odds offered against are not simply multiplied – a bookie will offer a special price. In other words, because the chance of Dawn Approach winning the Derby is that much greater having won the Guineas, and his price would contract, in advance of both events they would likely offer a much smaller price on the two events happening.

But similarly, from the punter’s perspective one of the key tools is spotting when you think a bookmaker has priced something wrongly – that you think he has underestimated the chance of it happening. So when I saw the combined odds last October of 65/1 – that was 4/1 and 12/1, both advertised on the William Hill site – I pounced.

Had they said within a few days that they had made a mistake – computer error and all that – then I’d have been annoyed, but mistakes happen.

But it took them seven months – and the first leg winning – before they noticed their ‘mistake’. Indeed, they didn’t even get in touch straight after the first leg. They waited another four weeks.

I wrote to their customer services. And for 3 days, not a word.

So I wrote to the CEO, Ralph Topping. I was polite:


Dear Mr Topping,

On 13 October 2012 I placed a £25ew double on Dawn Approach to win the 2000 Guineas and Derby.

Since his Guineas win, I have been counting the days to the Derby looking forward to – hopefully – winning.

Yesterday – over 7 months after the bet was placed, and weeks after the first leg won – I received the email below.

I am sure that you will be able to point me to small print that justifies your stand. But I would like to ask you to think, for one moment, about the ethics of your decision.

For seven months – seven months! – the bet stood. No one at any point mentioned anything about a mistake. Believe me, I have placed a number of bets in the past and then been contacted to be told that the price was a mistake. But after seven months? And, conveniently for William Hill, only after the first leg won, meaning that you might actually have to pay out.

The sums involved, in any case, are hardly earth shattering. For a small punter like me, they are amazing. But for William Hill they are chicken feed.

What we have here, in other words, is a bet struck in good faith, for a small sum, which stood for seven months – and then eight days before a possible payout, a decision  was taken to void it.

In any other walk of life you would surely agree such behaviour is outrageous.

I ask you please to reconsider.

Should you not, then I will consider it my duty to make the betting – and wider – public aware of how William Hill behaves.

That would not sit well with me, since I have always bet with you, as you will see from my account and have always thought you an honourable firm.

Yours,

Stephen Pollard

Again, not a word. I re-sent it. Not a word. Not even a response from an underling. Nothing.

And so I turned to Twitter. And everything changed.

On Sunday morning, I set out what had happened in a few pithy tweets. Over the course of the day, I was flooded with retweets and responses. From punters, from politicians, from journalists – from all sorts.

They pointed out that bookmaking depends on trust. And a bookie who retrospectively changes the odds is not a bookie to be trusted.

And they pointed to the self-inflicted PR disaster. First, in ignoring my polite emails. And second…

William Hill's social media team provided an object lesson in how to dig even deeper into a hole. Because I did, at last, start getting a response from William Hill: to my tweets, and those from others who tweeted the story. And boy, were they bad: spectacularly sneering – as if they realty had better things to do than waste their time on an idiot like me.

After I pointed out that their behaviour showed they couldn’t be trusted to honour a bet struck seven months ago, they replied:

“@WillHillBet: @stephenpollard Trust is built by adhering to our terms & rules which are we correct any obvious errors. The bet stands at the right price.”

When I said they had voided the bet, they replied: “For clarification, the bet is not void. It stands at the correct price of 15/1 or can be split into singles at marked odds”

And when I pointed out it took seven months for them to decide the bet was a mistake, they said: “It was accepted in error seven months ago but has only come to our attention since the first leg won.”

And that was it – the sum total of the response William Hill deigned to make to my emails and tweets.

With every new sneer, more people were jumping in.

Because of Twitter, and the immediacy of the support it can generate, a small potential payout to a few people over a bet was fast becoming a PR disaster, with the company’s social media team managing to make things worse with their tone and responses.

And then, last night, I received this:


Dear Mr Pollard,

I’m pleased to be writing to you to confirm that William Hill WILL honour your bet on Dawn Approach to win both the 2000 Guineas and the Derby at the full odds at which your bet was originally placed.

This decision actually contradicts our own rules around the placement of bets with related contingencies, but because your bet was placed in goodwill we have agreed that our response to this situation should also reflect that goodwill intention.

On that basis, we hope you enjoy the big race this weekend and I’d like to thank you again for choosing to bet with William Hill.

Had they had the least idea of decent customer relations – and decent PR – they would have said, from the start, that while the bet was accepted in error, as a goodwill gesture – given that the error was not spotted for seven months – they will honour it.

Instead, they have now convinced a large number of people that they can’t be trusted, and that the only reason they have acted with honour is because they have been forced to do so by a Twitterstorm.

There are any number of lessons from this. My mother would probably tell me that the biggest is not to bet. But I'm grown up now, so it's a vice I will live with. The biggest, surely, is that customer relations really do matter. Had they bothered responding to my initial emails, I might never have taken to twitter – and so alerted so many people to the story. Then again, simply contacting me without changing their tune wouldn't have done any  good.  But thanks to twitter, they've not only had to change their mind – they've also portrayed themselves as obstinate and sneering.

And because of a bet which, if Dawn Approach bombs on Saturday, will cost them precisely nothing.

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Replies: 84
By:
millhouse
When: 29 May 13 00:05
Whoever made the call to hope that Dawn Approach didn't win the 2000 Guineas before contacting the customers concerned knows very little about PR, imo...
By:
Ramruma
When: 29 May 13 05:26
It has always been outrageous that when a firm accepts a bet, it does not really accept it. Instead, it takes possession of the bet with a vague promise to look at it once the result is known, and only then decide whether or not it will take the bet.
By:
elisjohn
When: 29 May 13 05:29
wonder if they voided or returned bets on frankel 2000 , derby double, im certain many did that
By:
prism
When: 29 May 13 08:22
This has been badly handled by Hills. And very badly managed PR-wise thereafter.
By:
ST NICHOLAS ABBEY
When: 29 May 13 08:54
I'm glad that you have sorted the bet however them offering you 15/1 was a disgrace as Dawn Approach was 12/1 just to win the Derby at the time of your bet.. i do think though that your bet would have not attracted there attention if DA had only been placed in the 2000 and if placed in the derby then i am  sure you would have got the place double IE returns of 200.00 but we will never know.these bets will always be taken in error as staff are just not clued up enough which is down to the poor training they receive and don't understand that it is related and that's down to the training i guess as most people in betting shops these days only have to turn a key in the door put the papers up empty fobs and make tea or coffee ............. iv worked in betting shops for 30 years + and mostly independent and when we get Related bets on horse etc we use the chart that works out the 1st goal/correct score chart which is much more fair i reckon IE van persie 1st goal 4/1 man United to win 3-1 12/1 would be on average between 28/1 - 33/1 it would also be around that price in all HILLS shops ..... its very similar to the related DA bet IE one part going on to the other and a fair price and how they come up with 15/1 is/was a rip off ............. all related bets in my opinion should be done this way it works with no problems on the score cast prices and punters accept it so take note hills ETC and get the price and how to create the right price ...... there must be thousands of bets unclaimed around the country if they are splitting stakes on related horse bets that have been split due to staff error .....now i wonder what price HILLS etc will offer me on Joyeuse to win 2014 Oak - 1000 Guineas @ the moment its about 14/1 for the 1000 guineas and 20/1 for the oaks .. the double price is 251/1 using the chart the price would be roughly 100 - 125/1 ........... hills i guess using there system or what ever way they decide would properly be 33/1 if your lucky PATHETIC PRICE..............
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 09:07
Mr Pollard not the innocent he's trying to portray, W/Hill would never advertise 65/1 dawn approach to win both,
  but, by taking advantage of poorly trained staff managed to delude them into laying multiple odds,
  special odds on related bets have been around for donkey years.
  even recreational punters are aware of that.

not defending w/hill, bad management, but still sharp practice.
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 29 May 13 09:18
I DEFINETLEY AGREE MR.DENNIS
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 29 May 13 09:27
he's a journalist with 6,000 Twitter followers - the William Hill social media team need to get with the programme.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 29 May 13 09:29
also, they now surely have to honour the bet for anybody else who placed it - inconceivable that he's the only one?
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 29 May 13 09:33
reaseheath WADDA YA THINKS GOING TO HAPPEN
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 29 May 13 09:35
I WONDER IF MR.POLLARDS SHUT UP OR IS HE CARRYING ON THE FIGHT FOR THE REST OF THEM
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 29 May 13 09:38
yep, his Twitter feed says they've agreed to pay out everyone who has had the bet, fair enough.

Notwithstanding the poor staff training, you'd think they'd have a system which flagged it up when staff try to process the bet, presumably that's what would happen if you tried to place it online.
By:
holywell
When: 29 May 13 09:40
Barry,

If Mr Pollard was not aware of odds on related bets he has been nothing other than naïve, we don't know.

William Hill need to be looking at the reason why their staff member took the bet, was he / she poorly trained ?, I'm sure their staff will be trained to encourage their customers to use the terminals possibly at the expense of ensuring they are aware of the rules of sports betting. Does the current staffing levels mean this type of error will regularly slip through the net ? How do they manage future sports betting issues ?, this one has been badly managed.
By:
ST NICHOLAS ABBEY
When: 29 May 13 10:15
related bets as i am  sure you all know have been taken for donkey years and will continue to be taken regardless of the training staff are given ...there's nothing wrong with this type of bet its the price that's the problem as i said in my earlier post bookmakers should come up with a chart similar to the scorecast chart .... this would then stop all the confusion regarding the price its not rocket science and easy to do and with a bit of common sense most managers would be able to explain this to PUNTERS and STAFF
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 29 May 13 10:18
SPOT ON ...SNA
By:
Cauthenmeister
When: 29 May 13 10:26
Could this particular bet have actually been placed online, pretty sure not many over the counter customers leave their
email address.
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 29 May 13 10:33
IF IT GETS BEAT WHATS THAT GOTTA DO WITH IT ....IF IT WINS THEY DRAW
By:
parispike
When: 29 May 13 10:49
The OP said he spotted the prices on the WH website. Not clear if bet placed by that channel.If it was then WH don't hav a leg to stand on do they.......?
By:
Huggy
When: 29 May 13 11:01
If the bet was placed in a shop,it would have had to be transelated,this would of alerted the cashier that something was amiss.
By:
Anaglogs Daughter
When: 29 May 13 11:09
Stephen Pollard ‏@stephenpollard They've agreed to pay out on everyone who had the bet. Agree I probably had a head start but others can tweet too
By:
Pilsudski
When: 29 May 13 12:21
Barry Dennis --  Is it Mr Pollard's fault that the staff are poorly trained ?
By:
Anaglogs Daughter
When: 29 May 13 14:21
He's in the bathroom sinking the bismark,  i'll give him a shout ..Barrrryyyyyyy
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 14:26
pilsudski, not Mr Pollards fault, palpable error is a rule for exactly that, staff error and stroke pullers.

just got 12 England to win ashes should have been 1/2 shall I try to claim it?
By:
millhouse
When: 29 May 13 14:30
Surely the interesting part of this is how worried they are about the impact that media platforms they don't own or control can have on their business.

Obviously in our industry, where the media is institutionally corrupt when it comes to the bookmakers, they can shaft punters all day long.

But when the underhand and cynical manner in which they routinely behave gets into the mainstream they back track faster than Vodkatini after the tapes have gone up...
By:
millhouse
When: 29 May 13 14:33
Barry, you are right, obviously, but it was cynical and extremely badly advised to wait and see if Dawn Approach won the Guineas before they decided there was a problem, imo...
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 14:37
millhouse, agree 100%, when did this palpable error first get recognised, if before guineas, very poor P/R
By:
TCat
When: 29 May 13 14:40
Surely that's the point. The fact notification of the error was given after the first leg of the bet means the bet should be honoured.
By:
millhouse
When: 29 May 13 14:40
I think we can be pretty sure they knew all about it Barry - clearly they figured they were odds on not to have to worry about the problem any more after the Guineas had been run...
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 14:45
better P/R. keep stuhm pay the geezer if it wins and politely tell him to off
By:
TCat
When: 29 May 13 15:13
Fair comment BR. Conversely I had a problem with a bet with the same bookmaker. I was a good loser over a period of years but was let down badly. Havent bet with them since.
By:
Anaglogs Daughter
When: 29 May 13 17:47
Everyone knows the bet shouldn't have been priced like that but any pity for WH went straight out the window

William Hill's social media team provided an object lesson in how to dig even deeper into a hole. Because I did, at last, start getting a response from William Hill: to my tweets, and those from others who tweeted the story. And boy, were they bad: spectacularly sneering – as if they realty had better things to do than waste their time on an idiot like me.

After I pointed out that their behaviour showed they couldn’t be trusted to honour a bet struck seven months ago, they replied:

“@WillHillBet: @stephenpollard Trust is built by adhering to our terms & rules which are we correct any obvious errors. The bet stands at the right price.”

When I said they had voided the bet, they replied: “For clarification, the bet is not void. It stands at the correct price of 15/1 or can be split into singles at marked odds”

And when I pointed out it took seven months for them to decide the bet was a mistake, they said: “It was accepted in error seven months ago but has only come to our attention since the first leg won.”

And that was it – the sum total of the response William Hill deigned to make to my emails and tweets.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 29 May 13 18:20
be interesting to know what happened in previous years e.g. Camelot last year and the polar opposite case of Frankel the year before.

hardly an unusual bet, I would have thought.
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 19:02
dont overlook the fact that the punter would know he was pulling a stroke
By:
Anaglogs Daughter
When: 29 May 13 19:07
Bookmakers are in too much of a rush to get to the future. I'm sure none of your staff 20-30 years ago would have even entertained them. Most people who applie for a job in a betting shop around my time 70s-80s would be asked what's a bottle at a neves to ruof. You had to have some semblance of an iota about horse racing and if you didn't you started by marking the board. Now you neither know how to work out the odds or even know what Arkle-Red Rum-Kauto Star-Frankel were. So i have no pity on them. Feck them all.
By:
swift-tuttle
When: 29 May 13 19:07
is there a simple rule here then?

ante-post multiples involving the same horse are not allowed
By:
steviebees
When: 29 May 13 19:25
How, in fairness, could the price for Dawn Approach to win both races be just 15/1 when the horse was 12/1 to win just one leg of the double? And you suggest this gentleman was pulling a fast one Mr Dennis. I suggest you take a closer look at Hills' behaviour  in this instance at initially offering such an obviously meagre price.
By:
Banned_Banks
When: 29 May 13 19:40
Where do you draw the line here?

What is to stop a fraudulent group paying for a person to work at a bookmakers and take all dodgy related bets etc?

If you allow this type of thing to happen all you do is encourage the bookmakers to sack the staff for being incompetent otherwise you can never stop it.
By:
ReaseHeath
When: 29 May 13 19:50
presumably they can use their Business Analytics solution to trawl their databases for all such bets placed over the last x years and void them?

Personally I think you should be looking to draw the line before the first leg of the bet wins - not that difficult for a FTSE 100 company to run an exception report and remove the problem at source.

Whether the originator of the bet was trying it on or not, he placed the bet last October.

If I were a Hills shareholder, this escapade would not fill me with confidence in their Business Systems.
By:
barry dennis
When: 29 May 13 19:52
the sp double is about 4/1, which makes 15/1 look generous.

As I said earlier, Willihill have acted appallingly.


   but every punter in the world is aware that the bet is related and impossible to get multiple odds.

please get me cook top batter 5/1 swan top wickettaker6/1 and england to win first test 7/4£500 patent
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