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ive withdrawn from the gold flag.
reasons.
1.im convinced the maority of customers couldnt care less about place terms.the midweek punters(thats why ive been betting midweek)dont really want 1/4 odds 1234 at the likely reduced odds.when i explained that 16 would have to be 14 at 1/4 they backtracked and the general feeling(not a large survey i agree about 25)was more choice and bigger win odds was preffered(1/6 makes you a ripoff merchant in there opinion)
2.recreational(saturday and sunday-90% of my business)couldnt care less,or didnt have a clue what i was on about.bookmaker appearance,friendliness,the cost of getting in and food quality meant alot more.
3.im fed up of betting ew in bad races and occasionally being in the sp but as soon as it suits other books replacing me.the offices at the grand national bet with the book next door who had bet 1/5 1234 but was correct terms this year to be in the 12 but missed me out.
4.the racecourses are starting to moan now but if theyd pushed the gold flag from the beginning more might have joined.
5.its give give give.7 times a betting badge,marketing,tenure.if they want us to bet standard(the law says we dont have to)to help increase attendances what are they prepared to do.lower entrances,even some bookmaker marketing or scrap it for example.chester are a perfect example of being clueless.they bring in chesterbet which is perfectly legal to help them make money and then put in 3g so people can bet offcourse.barmy.
so ive withdrawn.i will in future be competive when i have to and rely on service when i dont.UNTIL THERE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
reasons.
1.im convinced the maority of customers couldnt care less about place terms.the midweek punters(thats why ive been betting midweek)dont really want 1/4 odds 1234 at the likely reduced odds.when i explained that 16 would have to be 14 at 1/4 they backtracked and the general feeling(not a large survey i agree about 25)was more choice and bigger win odds was preffered(1/6 makes you a ripoff merchant in there opinion)
2.recreational(saturday and sunday-90% of my business)couldnt care less,or didnt have a clue what i was on about.bookmaker appearance,friendliness,the cost of getting in and food quality meant alot more.
3.im fed up of betting ew in bad races and occasionally being in the sp but as soon as it suits other books replacing me.the offices at the grand national bet with the book next door who had bet 1/5 1234 but was correct terms this year to be in the 12 but missed me out.
4.the racecourses are starting to moan now but if theyd pushed the gold flag from the beginning more might have joined.
5.its give give give.7 times a betting badge,marketing,tenure.if they want us to bet standard(the law says we dont have to)to help increase attendances what are they prepared to do.lower entrances,even some bookmaker marketing or scrap it for example.chester are a perfect example of being clueless.they bring in chesterbet which is perfectly legal to help them make money and then put in 3g so people can bet offcourse.barmy.
so ive withdrawn.i will in future be competive when i have to and rely on service when i dont.UNTIL THERE IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.
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I feel that all of this is coming to a head Regit. Once Jockey Club Racecourses introduce standard EW across their tracks (after the 3 month consultation period) then it will likely be adopted across the board with the other courses. It is simply the right thing to do. Hopefully it will stop the rogues driving our customers away. I was betting at Chester and a punter asked me what price the fav was from behind the joint. I told him 2/1. He then asked what price it was on betfair, I politely declined to answer (it was actually 2.96 but that's another matter). He then proceeded to call me everything under the sun including a rip off merchant who cons people with 1/6th and 1/7th odds and stated that he never bets with on course books as they are all rip off merchants (for the record I have never bet worse than 1/5th odds).
This is the perception we create when we change the place terms. In some cases the books offering 1/6th odds in bad EW races are actually offering a better deal due to the higher win prices, but in our customers eyes we are ripping them off and it has to stop. |
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I think we should challenge it in court and then if the racecourse want us to adopt it then we negotiate.an ascot burger at the FREE meeting was £9.50 the racecourse should be having a word with the seller.why not let workers in for nothing like the tote for example.if we roll over and agree what happens if they then say we want better place odds than offcourse to encourage people to come racing.remember wasnot the racecourses were given our tenure by error and behaved disgracefully in my opinion.FIND OUT WHERE WE STAND LEGALLY EVERY TIME FROM NOW ON.
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FFOS LAS BH MONDAY CHEESE BURGER AND CHIPS £8.50.....25.50 NICKER I WAS EFFING STARVING
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I WENT DOWN THAT ROUTE ABOUT WORKMAN BEING COMPARED TO TOTE STAFF I WAS TOLD THEYD SPONSORED TO THE TUNE OFF A LOT MORE THAN BOOKIES
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Regit - we have received legal opinion. Not putting it on here. Will you be at York this week?
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will he ??????????????? 1.01
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Wasnot - are you expecting the bookmaker associations to come out and support the moved by the JCR to standardise ew terms (Legal or not)
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not wednesday but thursdat and friday as long as its not raining.
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not wednesday but thursdat and friday as long as its not raining.
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davy dont u think the associations should ballot their members first.a meeting and debate,then a vote.
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HAVE THEY STILL GOT THE FOUR 8 THE FIELD HANDICAPS THAT MAKES IT THE GREASTEST RACE TRACK IN ENGLAND SCENARIO
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Regit's initial post is a combination of: 'Looks like I can get away with giving worse e/w odds to dumb customers, therefore I will', and a general attitude of throwing the toys out of the pram because of annoyance at greedy racecourses.
Ripping off customers is a good short term plan for bookies but is going to hurt them long-term. The complaints about racecourses are not really related to your choice of e/w terms. Here's an idea to help promote good e/w : imagine if bookies' boards showed the win & e/w profits. So a 16/1 at 1/4 the odds would show £16 and £20, 16/1 at 1/5 the odds would show £16 and £19.20, a 14/1 at 1/4 the odds would show £14 and £17.50. Might help make it easier for people to see at a glance what the differences were. |
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I agree with you Nigel - and that's why we've never joined the Golf flag
I simply cannot bet next to a bookie who is topping me and at worse place terms What is clear is the fact the deal we got is pi$$ poor for everyone If the course want us to bet to standard place terms then we need a better deal for the betting badge |
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NIGEL IN HIS DEFENCE HAS QUITE CLEAR AND PLAINLY TRIED TO PLAY THE GAME HES GONE DOWN MOST AVENUES TO MAKE THE SYSTEM FIT ,BUT HES CLEARLY FRUSTRATED AT THE HIERACHEEES INEPTNESS TO CHANGE THINGS ,SO ITS A CASE OF .....IF YA CANT BEAT EM ......THEN ITS ...I LOVE JOCKY
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Bookmakers agree to bet to std ew terms on cancellation of marketing fees - how about that.
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Davy - the associations have balloted their members on this. I expect them to support whatever their membership wants.
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ITLL HAPPEN DAVY ITS ON ITS WAY
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This all sounds quite positive - good luck all involved.
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How about marketing fees cancelled/refunded on agreement to bet to standard terms and those who don't agree,then their marketing fees are increased and badge multiples increased also?
Could perhaps also make it a condition of membership to BPAs? |
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Don't forget it was bookmakers,as your commitee,negotiating the terms with the racecourses on your behalf.So now many don't agree with them ,and find them punative,and unworkable.So the blame sits firmly with you guys.
You pay fees to the AGT to have the "ring" administered,and are not happy at that either. So take a good look and see who is to blame. The answer lies firmly on the shoulders of your fellow operators,who appear to have full control of the self-destruct buttons. It isn't the punter's fault that lines of books go the same prices. |
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Add to that,who determines the price of pitches?Yes ,bookmakers again.
Many a retailer has paid good money for a shop lease,only to find that after a few years due to changes in the area,for a variety of reasons,it is no longer a good proposition.What it means is that business doesn't come with a guarantee,that trading conditions will always be good,and you will make a healthy profit every year.That is the REAL WORLD. Many pitch holders will have recovered the purchase price several times over,but now find things a great deal tougher,that is the reality of business,as there aren't any guarantees.We live in an ever changing world. |
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"RECOVERED THE PURCHASE PRICE SEVERAL TIMES OVER"
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Surely you've got your £100 back at Chester Fact?
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and probably the rest of his 'portfolio' too
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YES GENTLEMAN,ONE OF THE DELIGHTS OF HAVING "KHAZI PTCHES"
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IN YORK TATTS THEVE DONE IT IN 70 TIMES OVER
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CHANNEL 4 RIGHT NOW A DOCUMENTARY ON WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO U IF BUY IN AT YORK TATTS
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looks a bit like Burtonwood to me
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MORE GARFORTHISH IMO
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Regit, standard terms are a seperate issue to how much racetracks make, or how much they charge us. We are fast approaching times where tracks are going to have to induce us to bet anyway-given the attendances, poor pitch sales etc
All the arguments about each way, and how you can't do this because someone else does that next door will become irrelevant. That's factual. it removes major upset between punters (the core punters) and also between fellow bookmakers in fact i would lean a little further on the terms. consider this. if you removed from the rule book the option to bet 'win only' i believe the playing field wold be levelled and a lot of concerns would disappear competition would be about the win book - but no firm would dip below a certain win threshold- they simply have to respect the place final point. the current system has failed - massively. want to continue with the same - or a hybrid of the same? I don't see you at York |
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were just going to have to disagree sport.the problem with standard terms is their wrong.if betting was starting out tomorrow theres no way they would be the same.i firmly believe the majority of punters start with the win price and then the place price follows.the sort of punter who moans is your larger midweek punter but he doesnt want an ew price HE WANTS THE WIN PRICE AT STANDARD ODDS and thats impossible.he sees a horse at 20/1 in the morning probably guaranteed money back if it finishes 2nd etc. but we know the chances of him getting on are slim with the majors.this type of punter has no loyalty and to be honest is not one i particularly want.(theres a punter in the north bets horses ew to win 5 or 10,000 in 16 plus handicaps,3-4 runners a race and billys have stopped him just because he wins-its not viable).my core punters(nights,sat,sun,bank hol etc.)are more interested in me being polite and matching the win price I THINK.my slips and t/o have not gone down much over the past 3 years and are actually up this year,this could be due to the gold flag but after talking to them i dont think it is.in my opinion its joint appearance,politeness and win price competitiveness and by pulling out of the gold flag i think i can improve this.UNTIL THE PLAYING FIELD LEVELS.
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I personally think there is only one answer to it
Win prices and place prices - as they do in Oz |
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one other thing sport,i went to donny for a day out yesterday and every book i talked to was prepared to bet to gold flag terms as standard(i know a few who dont thats why we need a vote after a debate)but everyone wanted something back from the racecourse.their fed up with it being one way.having said that donny kept showing a video explaining betting with a bookmaker on the big screen which was excellent and ascots offer is very fair.perhaps were starting to make progress.
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I respect your view , regit , which is correct with the vast majority of course punters. I will stay with the gold flag for this summer until it gets sorted but if the racecourse initiative fails then i'll burn mine as well.
on Saturday at thirsk there were FIVE handicaps that should have been 1/4 odds 123 . I was surrounded by books only offering 1/5th odds. although I put a big sign up highlighting this I don't think as many as 20% of the public knew what it mean't , although I was the exactly the same price they were taking as many each way bets as me. this is a CANCER in the betting ring that needs addressing because the punter needs protecting from himself |
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How many punters are there that venture out and place multiple bets to arb a few quid when the place terms are, say 96% or one of those races with a long odds on shot in. Maybe it is one race in fifty (maybe you bookies have records ) . Doesn't the win book at say 120% compensate. Or is being over simplistic.
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not many at 96% harry but the win book is nearer 114% ,
the problem is more when the place book is 90% to 92% when arbers are restricted or refused these maiden races are about one in forty or so. |
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if you don't know the arbers you soon do because the cheeky ******* want the fractions as well
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harry, the problem with these ew races is the places vary wildly for certain runners compared to the lay price on here. You could have 3 20/1 chances and the EW is 5/1 from the books for all of them. On here it could be anything from about 6.2 to 3.5 for a place. The punters who want the chunks on EW want to be on the ones that are 3.5 for a place only.
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harry. the trouble is as you say with these long odds on races,as an example say 10 runners,the win book would be anything between 105% to 112%(depending on the layer)the place would be well overbroke(around 80%)so instead of the books sticking to a 1/5th odds and betting 100% on the place(better win%)they decide to smash it up and still bet to 108% on the win and bet each way 1/6,1/7,1/8,1/9 or whatever.sadly joe public think this is better,its not rocket science,its time the bookmakers had a bit of unity for a change.heres hoping.
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