geoff banks article.

Lots of very good points on this thread,but,as we all know, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of a consensus view forming amongst bookmakers on just about ANY topic.The ONLY way to get change is for the racecourses to impose their will on bookmakers and how they operate.Epsom have started the ball rolling by insisting that Hill operators bet to standard place terms...this at least suggests that they recognise that there are problems,and have the will to act given the opportunity.As I have previously suggested,what is needed are REPRESENTATIVE committees at every racecourse made up of nominated bookmakers from every ring at that individual track.In my opinion, what should happen is that on every issue i.e place terms, a vote should be taken by every pitch holder in that ring , and if a healthy majority..say 75%...Is achieved in favour of a particular motion, then the racecourses should see that as a clear mandate to amend license terms and conditions that apply to ALL.

For a number of reasons,cash turnover will decline in the ring over the coming years, the current system of pitch fee based on entrance price is just totally unsustainable in the long term for just about everybody, the only way for most of us to maintain a sustainable business is to have an expense regime mainly based on turnover, and most definitely not a figure that increasingly bears no relation whatsoever to the number of people turning up with the intention of having a bet with the on course bookmakers.

and what are the chances of no 4 happening , sports

Surely most of you are missing the main reason that the ring is in decline, it is totally outdated in present day gambling. You are the 2013 version of the 1980's miners in that your profession is becoming obsolete so the history of the profession just counts for nothing.

In basic terms a huge % of you are arbers, pure and simple. I can sit at home and bet at bigger odds, better place terms and have the odd offer, BOG etc thrown in. Instead of moaning about the ring dying you should all be taking the responsibility for it dying imo as the ones that wont lay a bet unless they can nick 10/20% above it on the exchanges are just middlemen and half decent punters that might have a few quid on are just cutting out the middleman and betting elsewhere.

What is it that you are moaning about, your profession is dying because most have decided to just nick a few % per bet instead of sticking up your market and trying to turn over as much as you can safe in the knowledge that long term you will always have % working for you and should make money. ie bookmaking.

Find is quite ridiculous really that basically arbers are now complaining that all the free money they are getting isn't enough to keep em going when they have mostly chosen to work that way.

ps, I saw the RP supplement yesterday and thought this is going to be a load of old catchphrase bollox from an on course layer. Hats of to Banks for laying it out as it is, basically the reason for the decline is simple, you don't have a service that is needed by decent punters anymore. Yet you are doing your best to put people off betting with you, what is your USP, what is the point of coming racing to get scalped on every bet by a money mover?

What is it that you are all moaning about when you have created this situation yourselves?

Adge. No 4. Ehm, problem here appears Robin spent too many years doing things his own way. This is not to say he has made a series of poor decisions. Not at all. However, he plays cards close to his chest and if there's a failing, it's in seeking to run the association as a fiefdom. I won't let that happen. Either he bends to majority view, or he's removed or I am. Hopefully he will see reason. He's no fool so I'm assuming he will choose moderation over confrontation Adge

Mr Fu. Couldn't agree with you more

ADGE - So the representation is not representative at all ?.....you dont say !

SPORTSADVISOR - you want racecourses to 'engage their power to force little operators to heel'.........i'm a 'little' operator who bets standard terms and give my customers excellent service.....In what way should I  be brought to 'heel' ?...I  can name several so called 'big time operators' who definitely should be brought to 'heel'...but then again, i'm sure we all can....it's not that hard is it ?

Mugs, you've answered your own question. There's Bookies who need brought to heel, be they small or large. If it's not imposed however, you're a million

How many of the oncourse bookies would lay a horse to take out £10k? If, for example it was 7.6 on here for a couple of hundred and I was willing to take 6/1?

SPORTSADVISOR - I'M ALREADY A MILLION...LOTS OF TATTS PITCHES BOUGHT FOR GRANDS 15 YEARS AGO......NOW £100 PITCHES.....BRINGING TO 'HEEL' NOT QUITE THE RIGHT TERM.....BUT AGREE, THERE NEEDS TO BE CHANGE, BUT CHANGE THAT REFLECTS THE MAJORITY VIEW,WHATEVER THAT MAY BE.....NOT JUST THE GEOFF BANKS VIEW....THAT'S FAIR SURELY ?

frog - not many I suspect. At Exeter recently I asked two bookmakers for a £500/£60 (hardly a King's Ransome) and was refused on the pretext "we don't do fractions". However this excuse was only advanced after a quick check of the machine.

I go racing two or three times a week and truly the standard of bookmaking has never been lower.

PARISPIKE/FROG - BOOKMAKERS USED TO HAVE TO DISPLAY THEIR MAXIMUM LIABILITY....SADLY,ONE OF THE BETTER IDEAS THAT HAS FALLEN BY THE WAYSIDE.

Yes that was a good idea mug. Why was it discontinued?

Think from a security issue Paris

NOT REALLY SURE, ADGE MIGHT KNOW...BUT A LOT OF VERY NEGATIVE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED TO THE BETTING RING SINCE THE THE INCEPTION OF THE 2005 GAMBLING ACT....AN ACT THAT WAS ADVANCED TO CONTROL NON BUILT MEGA CASINOS, HAS WREAKED HAVOC WITH MANY ASPECTS OF GAMBLING THAT FUNCTIONED PERFECTLY WELL PREVIOUSLY.

this was a rule change a couple of years ago when a few bookmakers in the Leicester area had safety problems. it was deemed that the larger liability signs were being noted by the wrong element of society

THANKS FOR THAT ADGE.....THERE YOU GO PARIS......THE CRIMINAL MINORITY WIN AGAIN !

Frog in answer to your question,firstly it would depend where you are,festivals no problem for plenty,elsewhere not many,the probem being what money you can field against it? Not much use standing one for 3 or 4k when the next race you struggle to take a monkey,quick way to the poor house.

Fair enough RR. Hadnt considered that tbf

That doesn't make much sense,because everyone would know that bookmakers have to come out with a chunk of readies,regardless of whether you have a liability sign up,or not.Although some wouldn't come out with much,but a would be criminal won't know either way.
In a criminal's mind bookmaker=cash.

Also re the liability sign, I don't think anything happened to those who abused it,it was basically window dressing.

It gave the punter grounds to lodge a complaint when knocked back.A necessary sign,and would favour the decent layers,IF they kept to their own terms.Should have been kept in use.

Was funny to walk round the track though and suddenly see people who wouldn't take an Even 50 Pre-Exchanges have £10,000 Max Liability signs up...... used to wet myself laughing

RR - THEY WOULDN'T NOW WITH THE EXCHANGE LIQUIDITY.

nobody mentioned these satalite pitches popping up like mushrooms      .the racecourses must be pissing themselves

Nobody bets in the offices any more. It's not because of EW terms, or Betfair. Real time information, betting, payouts have come with internet and broadband becoming
ubiquitous. Put a rake of fobts on a racecourse and they would be mobbed. I'd say the oncourse game has survived well to date. It would be sad to see it go, but environmental changes are inevitable. We can't be all that far off cash being eliminated altogether. The internet has affected nearly every industry as it takes away the human element as the world becomes digitised. Of course you should do your best to adapt, it's those businesses that will last the longest.

90% of them on course boys are all scum bags why would any one with any sense want a bet with them? there happy taking the 2 quid ew of the piss heads let them get on wih it

thanks for your kind words winker , at least that leaves 10% of us left

WINKER - IF YOU CHECK OUT THE 'BOOKIE ON A BIKE' THREAD, YOU'LL FIND THAT ONE OF OUR NUMBER HAS JUST COMPLETED A 150 MILE BIKE RIDE TO RAISE FUNDS FOR A YOUNG BOY IN DESPERATE NEED WHO HE DOES NOT KNOW...LOOKS LIKE HE'LL END UP RAISING A COUPLE OF GRAND THANKS TO THE GENEROSITY OF ON COURSE BOOKIES AND SOME VERY VERY GENEROUS PEOPLE WHO POST ON HERE !.....BY THE WAY, THERE'S STILL TIME TO DONATE....WWW.JUSTGIVING.COM/LUKE-T.....SMALL DONATIONS BY WAY OF APOLOGY ACCEPTED

Offer a decent bet and people will come racing to bet. Don't and we will play the exchanges and manipulate the prices to get what we can with the off course bookies. It simple really.

The exchanges are volatile and the prices move so quick due to the manipulations. If a bookie is willing to lay bigger due to a few quid on here he isn't a bookie, he is a lemming.

well I've never refused any bet from a punter in 41 years. I don't know what you mean by proper bet mind

what is also devalueing our pitches are all these part timers on £50 picks still turning up,im amazed they still keep appearing,i thought these extra charges were to weedle these part timers who have other jobs out.

the way things are going dodger it will take a little time but it will

good discussions chaps ......no spoilers

Ring Numbers, need reviewing!

What about SIS/Turf payments. These should be only paid to bookmakers who bet Gold Flag Terms and offer each way every race, after all this is the only data they can use! Why should firms who never bet to standard terms and operate multiple pitches get more than the rest!! This offers a real incentive to bet to proper terms and should be easy to police by SIS/Turf.

think racegoing punters go racing to get BETTER odds than those who stay at homIe , scrabbler

Cracking idea ctem.

excellent point ctem

A few weeks ago we had our racing trip from the local pub, a 52 seater coach which has been full every year for the last 10/12 years, this year there was 20 spare seats. Most of the lad's that I spoke to said they were not going because all the bookies board's all show the same price and all the prices change at the same time, add to this the rip off e/w terms on offer with most books is it any wonder that only 60% of the lads who have gone in years gone by have now seen the light. If this is happening all over the country no wonder the betting ring's are in the state that they are

On course bookmakers are trying to sell apples for £1, while betfair are selling them for 90p and do home delivery for free.....

on course you pick your apples from the front of the stall having studied how ripe and fresh they are while off course you just get served from the back

I suppose , but we live in a time where convenience and price beat all

betfair sell 2 ply tissues of toilet paper nice and soft on your krutch ....on-course its its one single sheet that's slips around fromm time to time

Regarding Adge's fourth point: I heartily agree, but before that he should return the rails joint hire business back to AGT and they return him the £1 paid.

When Geoff say he never refuses bets from proper punters what he really means is he never refuses LOSING punters. Also as a punter I do not see the service offered by on course bookmakers as any kind of incentive for mass crowds at race tracks. In the past they were useful for a handful of pro bettors but these days who needs them?, only the nostalgic amongst us. Its a new world, let them die peacefully and allow the tracks to develop a new and more track lucrative betting platform for its customers.

went racing 4 days out of the past 6 - perth/ripon/huntingdon/yarmouth (which was 3rd last on my list of UK courses, only cartmel and aintree to go) and a common theme is that the books are basically the exchanges in disguise (and not a very good disguise either!)..at best there was half a point difference between the lot of them (perhaps 30 books at ripon) for runners under 10/1 and for the big outsiders you could see 50/1 vs 66/1 or 80/1 vs 100/1, of course all were lower than that available at the time on the exchanges.  i can't see the point of them showing up and paying the bookmakers fee plus travel/accommodation/expenses and wages if all they're going to do is try to catch the 'mug punters' with horrible e/w terms or the like.  it's no wonder that banks said the more savvy were all betting on course using their apps!..surely if they want to survive they're going to have to take a position on one or two runners each race and go for the price they think regardless of the exchanges?  in the long run they just can't beat the technology at it's own game

oh there were two exceptions - wensleydale racing at ripon and s&d bookmakers at yarmouth, usually the best ring prices

This thread reminds me of a story from a couple years back about the demise of a bookmaker. The article won a creative writing award and was published by the Racing Post, though it was fictional it sums up many of the current trends in racing. Worth a read. http://www.willswritingawards.co.uk/cathaldennehy.asp

2. Novicey bookmakers/traders turning up once a fortnight on a saturday

Geoff,

You recently place the above as number 2 in the problem child list.

Doubt I would class as a novice but certainly only turn up on a staurday in the summer. Reason being I don't own / didn't inherit the necessary £1/2m of pitches to be full time.
I know many books who have halved the number of days they work in the last 2 years due to marketing fees and increased costs etc, these guys
are giving up on the idea of being full time also, even when trying to earn a modest living only, at the sort of pay you get in McDonalds,
but many keep trying because they love the game.

If you are seeking to represent the majority of books in any capacity you must take on board that 300 of the 450 on course now
only turn up on saturdays and so long as they don't disrupt the integrity (accepted E/W issue) then these guys add to and don't take away
from the wonderful product of UK horse racing.

Furthermore if they didn't arrive the remaining few would be very cosy and betting to 3% runner / 50/1 maximum no doubt.

im one of those he rfers to courselayer.what gives him the right to say it !!!!! imbetting with my own money like you.i wouldnt care but if you look at the people who turn up midweek with there multi pitches most of them alter their ew terms.im not going to name them but they even bet 1/5 1234 on the national.

PLUS 300 OUT THE 450 ARE NOW COMMISSION AGENTS

Regit,you do yourself a disservice,i heard the firm attended Beverley on a dreary Thursday,credit to you!

No argument that unlicensed laying on exchanges harms on course bookies but looks like its here to stay factmachine.
I have no issue with bookies who hedge or play straight, it's a business decision which they are entitled to make for themselves.

Regit. I have the right of opinion. As do you. I refer to damage caused to Ring and standards by part time punters who purchase a pitch for £50 and turn up betting to pure exchange odds. They're not thinking og profit - more of survival- a day out as opposed to punting. It's an unhealthy situation
I don't refer to professional layers
Oncourse
Thanks for the response. I recognise there are many firms who now only bet on a saturday. If they're professional about it and don't turn up in their own pitch, not someone else's, link with another bookie - or stand there betting to 1/6th the ods because that's what the rule says, then that's all good for me. Like yourself, they would have to recognise the current system as broke and we need to fix it. fast
As to 3% a runner. That's what I bet to on the Gold Cup. I have no issue with margin. I leave that to the Racing Post. I lead on service and I'm not about to 'come racing' to leave a few quid behind. I'm in it to make money. That's why I survive. Perhaps to some people's surprise :)

Can't we bring back the 'racecourse gangs' of the 1930s, 1940s & 1950s?

I'll nominate, Charles 'Darby' Sabini!



'ere Preston, what's with the 108% on The Grand National?

You better make it 208% or you and your f*cking tools will be on the track!

WE COULD HAVE NICKNAMES ....SLASHER THOMPSON....HATCHET MAN ARMES.....HATCHETT MAN HOWARD

the figures quoted for the grand national were the opening show put up by bryan hazel which I copied into my computer.
the place percentage of 108% is what showed on my screen [ of course it wasn't with bryan as he was 1/5th the odds a place ]
I trust that clears that up , mafia

LOLOLOLOL

Fetch Prestons' tools back lads and throw Hazells' tools on the track instead!

Hazel is a thorough going pest

Geoff

Fair enough, position explained, thanks for the reply.

A pleasure. If we work together- bend a little with each other- and stop behaving in such a 'greedy' fashion which only denigrates the critical margin, we might prosper. At least would be a step towards sustainable business.
1/9th the odds and 2 places on the grand national- it's coming otherwise :)

bet next to a bookmaker mentioned recently at sedgefield once.bad ew hcap.i was 1/4 123(didnt want to be).he was win only but laying ew if asked.when i looked at one of the tickets hed put 1/6 odds into his computer.mentioned it to a ring inspector who said hed have a quiet word.no morals.if you get a chance to bet next to this book its worth it just to hear him talk to the sp man after.£5000/300ew,an even grand 3 times,£8000/1000ew.hans christian andersons kids go to sleep listening to his stories.

NOW NOW REGIT....WE DONT WANT TO 'LOOK SPLIT' DO WE

i have enjoyed reading this thread and would like to offer mr banks my opinion. have held a permit for 26 yrs started as a clerk p2pointing; making a book at various greyhound tracks for over 20yrs and currently have a decent spread of frontline picks at various racecourses .the constitution of the frb needs addressing immediately 3 people voicing THEIR opinions masqurading that they purvey everyone eles what a joke !

mr flash bookie - as a punter I'd like to ask you the following questions

a) in the pre-exchange days, how much would you be prepared to lay on any given horse - perhaps this depends on the size of the crowd, strength of the particular market etc so just for arguments sake let's say for a saturday meeting and a tuesday meeting

b) what percentage of bets now are fed back in full to the exchanges

c) do you trade on the exchanges on the days you're not on course

d) do you consider yourself a bookmaker or a trader

thanks!

Wonder if flash is hinting how the bookmakers' wishes can be represented more accurately and impartially ? I have been told the constitution regarding the representatives' voting is severely flawed. If more forward thinking individuals as flash suggests are required how Mr. Banks can it be achieved ?

Excuse me for interrupting Gordon but despite Flash being more than capable of being able to answer for himself might I save him from answering d) - he is definitely a bookmaker and NOT a trader !

Gordon63,

flash bookie, would be one of the very few on here, who could, without fear of contradiction, call himself a 'Bookmaker'!

Did you teach him all you knew Norfolk ?

which is more than we can say about democrat whos half council worker and half horse thief

top hat and tails Saturday sogy

double wages on the toe nails

with respect democrat IMO that depends on his answer to b).

i'm not a bookmaker so am not at all familiar with the industry authorities/admin/rules/governing bodies etc etc but what I (and many others including the bookmakers) know is that the price variations which were part and parcel of going racing have all but disappeared and almost without exception the whole row of LED illuminated boards are showing the same prices give or take half a point and are one or one and half points BELOW that offered on the exchanges at the same time.  there is no way - even with free admission, free bookmakers badges or whatever else the bookies trade body may wish to introduce - that such practices can compete and in the long term survive against technology and the exchanges which in themselves will probably evolve to more direct person to person betting.  bookmakers in the historical sense have IMO already disappeared and the 'ring' is targetted towards fleecing the once a year punter, the summer football fans (too tanked up to care about value) and the ladies days.

johnnywilkinson,

Very droll!

one and a half points below .....W.A.C

GORDON IVE POSTED ON HERE ALL MORNING AND AFTERNOON AND YOUVE DEFINELTLEY JUST PULLED 3 LENGTHS CLEAR ON THE ....K**** STAKES

IT RHYMES WITH HUNT

johnny tosspot - do you see the adverts every week showing betfair prices vs the main books or are you deluded enough to believe the good old family bookie trading for 30 years (blah blah) offers better odds than the big players...they're all sheep...and the head of the flock is disappearing over the horizon

STICK YA HEAD IN A BUCKET OF ZHISHZIT

its you trying to defend the indefensible whos in ostrich land!! compare the money on course now with 20 years ago - in 20 years it will be all but gone..you and your like may fool yourselves about value but myself and others have seen all we need to see..there's more traded on a single midweek race at catterick on the exchanges than on course the whole meeting

few minutes before the off - 3/1 each of first three in market at sedgefield - lets wait for the SP...9/1 rudigreen, 14/1 the next two and 17/1 the outsider

ILL ACCEPT YOUR FORGIVENESS IF YOU GO DOWN TO THE MAIN ROAD STAND ON THE ROUNDABOUT WITH YOUR CAP BACK TO FRONT YOUR TROUSERS DOWN TO YOUR ANKLES ONE HAND ON YOUR NIAGRAS THE OTHER SUCKING YOUR THUMB AND A BIG SIGN ROUND YOUR NECK THAT SAYS PAP IF YOU THINK I LOOK DAFT

YOU SILLY CLUELESS INDIVIDUAL

Flash Bookie. You asked for my opinion? And I'm an honest fellah, think most people know where they stand with me, which is a start!
My belief, if Robin Grossmith acts for his association and their wishes - we'll all get along fine. If he says one thing, and does another, he's likely to struggle. I won't be party to any more squabbles with tracks.
I accepted through consensus standard terms taken out of contracts. I also had to accept we wouldn't be renegotiating contracts in the light of racetracks competing with us on betting
I expressed the view contracts should have been rewritten to reduce their badge fees if they competed with us. Again the consensus view was that we needed to get a result on the contracts and i accepted overrule again
Now we have the contracts - we move forward with tracks. If leaders respect that, they will have our support. If they don't, they will be replaced.

one and a half points below .....W.A.C

silly dopey gordan .

at least two and a half points eh johnny.

I've got a simple question for gorden.
why do professional punters go racing and bet with course bookmakers if what he believes is true. and by the way ,they don't take SP

pc charge adage

gordon 63 sorry for the delay in reply to you pre exchange i would be happy to stand a horse for say £5k if i was holding £3k on a race .saturday at sandown or wet tuesday at towcester would make no difference to me gordon !percentage of bets fed back in to the machine would vary massively from bookmakers . eg i know of a few that have as much as 90 % of their field money back on the exchanges and some who only monitor the exchange prices and never use it.if it helps your curiosity in 2012 i hedged less than 1% of my oncourse turnover into the exchanges .athome i may use the exchanges to back or lay on football but purely recreational and lastly i would call myself oldfashioned play with a straight bat and a old school bookie and still the best looking bookie on a british racecourse !!!

flash bookie,

I agreed with everything you said until.....and still the best looking bookie on a british racecourse !!!

sporstadvisor; credit where credit is due yourself tanya stephenson and i believe paul johnson and racing for change got the gold flag scheme up and running which i have always been a big supporter of.i told you at n'market at the time that i appreciated the level playing field you were trying to create .however only 3 days ago i was in a meeting with steve clare [jockey club betting administror/advisor] it is the jockey clubs wishes for standard terms at all their racecourses they have approached the frb who likely to oppose this with a legal challenge. to me this is pathetic how can they represent me a challenge somthing i badly want !and to top it up use my money in legal fees to do so !

ALL THE BIRDS WITRH THERE 2 QUID EWS ON SATURDAY

flash - thanks for the comprehensive reply, i think you're in minority but good luck to you.  what is your explanation for the lack of variation across the boards?

adge - there are traders on the exchanges whose turnover dwarves professional punters on course. if i look at old sporting life returns pages, the number of large bets (over 500) logged on many runners, not only favs, is quite staggering compared to now - implication being that the big money associated with professionals is either not there OR (hard to believe) those publicity shy bookies are not reporting their large bets, if so wonder why?

Specsavers for you Norfolk and possibly the Labour Exchange !

I think he's referring to the chap on the front who takes the bets , mafia

GORDON- BUZZ OFF

FLASH HAS BOUGHT HIM A DICKIE BOW FOR SATURDAY

adge • May 2, 2013 5:15 PM BST
I think he's referring to the chap on the front who takes the bets , mafia

Aah, that would be me!

No ! He means Yarmouth front and the manager at Ladcrokes !!!