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Why is this Mr.Hunt??All the talk about the improved WI FI at courses or is there going to be an extension to 1 sec. delay??
NO 
in running is pish poor comparedd to even a year ago the aways are so hard
in running is pish poor comparedd to even a year ago the aways are so hard
Liquidity ya mean??Excuse my ignorance but what are aways??=Expenses??
Must cost a fortune in overheads.
How far do people travel ?
How far do people travel ?
yes away meetings...never found ruk turf tracks so hard to play i guess liquidity is very poor so you basically HAVE to get it right first time or do your brains in....the days of backing the danger in second at a backable price seem long gone...could be me like but don;t think so lots of people i know who did well now struggling
PREMIUM CHARGE TO BLAME 1.01
PREMIUM CHARGE TO BLAME 1.01
all over country salmon ....costs a small fortune and as mr hunt will tell you its easier but not that easy
Oh Right-I presume the RUK delay being reduced has had an impact??It's only about 1 sec slower now??
Question for ya Andy,in the "corporate boxes" is internet connection wi fi??
What internet connection do on course books use??Are a lot of them playing in ruuning??
Question for ya Andy,in the "corporate boxes" is internet connection wi fi??
What internet connection do on course books use??Are a lot of them playing in ruuning??
returns simply crashed....trade far more sports now....
the liquidity is non existant...only the good track players will get a decent living from in running..the trading shops are finished..sis is totally impossibe and even the 1 sec ruk delay feels like 5....game over it was good while it lasted..
nowt to do with ruk speeding up imo..but maybe the players at home now are not so diadvantaged but its the track players now at all tracks that makes it harder plus markets are thinner and theres no juice at the business end like there used to be
most are hard wired, some are wifi/dongle hth
most are hard wired, some are wifi/dongle hth
betfair have to take some responsibility as the living blood is being sucked out of the in running products and the money isn't going back into the game as people are paying too much in premium charge
Thanks lads.U'd be at nothing so playing with MI FI/Dongle??
Not ways around getting a fresh account and keep the implied commission rate over the threshold?
Not ways around getting a fresh account and keep the implied commission rate over the threshold?
Joined: 01 Feb 08 | Topic/replies: 394 | Blogger: frog2's blog
Interest to read what Mark Davies (part of the Betfair founder management team and head of PR when the PC came in) has written on his blog on this:
Take the premium charge, for example. Someone mailed to ask me about it yesterday, and pointed out that I was quoted, when we introduced it, as saying that it was needed, because without it the cost of acquisition was not matched by the lifetime value of a customer: too much of the money taken from a customer who would then churn away went directly into the pocket of a small number of other clients. I said then that any business that got to where we were would have to introduce the same thing, because otherwise the revenue gained didn’t match the cost of acquiring the customer, which was an obvious road to the poorhouse.
All that was true. But what my comments, and our strategy, probably didn’t take fully into account was why the cost of acquisition (which was so much lower than other gambling businesses) was rising (or why the network effects were diminishing); or the fact that a consequent drop in the number of advocates meant in turn that the cost of acquisition would go up at the same time as liquidity went down – creating a spiral which was going the wrong way. Replacing the lost revenue means increasing the tax on the people who are making the money, which in turn means more of them fall away, and the cycle continues. Observers of the broader economy will recognise the pattern.
You can read his who article on the proposed takeover at:
http://www.markxdavies.com/
read that article explains what i've been saying since PC was brought in....tax the bigger players more the ecosystem (in running) becomes weaker and weaker till you're just left with empty boxes
Interest to read what Mark Davies (part of the Betfair founder management team and head of PR when the PC came in) has written on his blog on this:
Take the premium charge, for example. Someone mailed to ask me about it yesterday, and pointed out that I was quoted, when we introduced it, as saying that it was needed, because without it the cost of acquisition was not matched by the lifetime value of a customer: too much of the money taken from a customer who would then churn away went directly into the pocket of a small number of other clients. I said then that any business that got to where we were would have to introduce the same thing, because otherwise the revenue gained didn’t match the cost of acquiring the customer, which was an obvious road to the poorhouse.
All that was true. But what my comments, and our strategy, probably didn’t take fully into account was why the cost of acquisition (which was so much lower than other gambling businesses) was rising (or why the network effects were diminishing); or the fact that a consequent drop in the number of advocates meant in turn that the cost of acquisition would go up at the same time as liquidity went down – creating a spiral which was going the wrong way. Replacing the lost revenue means increasing the tax on the people who are making the money, which in turn means more of them fall away, and the cycle continues. Observers of the broader economy will recognise the pattern.
You can read his who article on the proposed takeover at:
http://www.markxdavies.com/
read that article explains what i've been saying since PC was brought in....tax the bigger players more the ecosystem (in running) becomes weaker and weaker till you're just left with empty boxes
thers ways if you dont nned a lot in your account to operate but your still on 20% after winning a grand..
no surprise that liquidity is suffering and steves right....ruk now levl or ahead of turf many would say would improve liquidity massively...truth is it has not at all.....worrying.....means the players playing against each other will play the same regardless of pic speed and its mainly pro vs pro/semi pro....no mugs left
Replacing the lost revenue means increasing the tax on the people who are making the money, which in turn means more of them fall away, and the cycle continues. Observers of the broader economy will recognise the pattern.
the economy is in recession not many people who work in normal jobs have much spare cash to use for gambling and they're not gonna use it to play in running against pros....those who get taxed heavily are winning less than before and taking home a pittance compared to a few years ago as exes are much higher and pc was not in operation b4....viscious circle...and betfair making far too much on the x matching skimming bot....all leads to harder in running game
the economy is in recession not many people who work in normal jobs have much spare cash to use for gambling and they're not gonna use it to play in running against pros....those who get taxed heavily are winning less than before and taking home a pittance compared to a few years ago as exes are much higher and pc was not in operation b4....viscious circle...and betfair making far too much on the x matching skimming bot....all leads to harder in running game
i know a top in running punter was was playing ascot on atr and clicking coming to the last fence whilst 7 seconds behind live...mind boggling it was 
i know alot of guys who are struggling or on the edge and a fair few who have gone skint that were full timers for years up n til about 18 months ago!!! so mark davies is spot on
By all accounts there are still plenty getting a decent living playing turf in exchange shops so
those live players who have gone skint are either completely useless or spanking the cash off on other sports.
those live players who have gone skint are either completely useless or spanking the cash off on other sports.
a few years ago MullahOmar you could "afford" to spunk cash as the nest few days you'd get your head down and win in running the money you had lost...now the game is much tougher...and its simply bcos liquidity is much lower and the people you're playing against much better and more knowledgeable...
Looking at totals matched the decline started in Jan 2011. That was when yearly averages peaked at just under £8m a day (win and place horseracing inplay worldwide). Since that date they have declined on a straight line to £7m a day.
This is still the level that was there in Jan 2010 but at that point it was on an upward curve. In mid-2006 it was only £4m a day.
These are totals matched though. You might find less mugs leaving money up to be robbed so you are getting more on at lower prices.
The market fundamentally unfair. My only surprise is that it has taken so long for this to happen. It is the only market where the delay is shorter than the picture delay. The rate people won on here courtsiding it is one of the key reasons we are now all facing the Premium Charge.
This is still the level that was there in Jan 2010 but at that point it was on an upward curve. In mid-2006 it was only £4m a day.
These are totals matched though. You might find less mugs leaving money up to be robbed so you are getting more on at lower prices.
The market fundamentally unfair. My only surprise is that it has taken so long for this to happen. It is the only market where the delay is shorter than the picture delay. The rate people won on here courtsiding it is one of the key reasons we are now all facing the Premium Charge.
Have a view and play pre race is the only option these days, just have to be right more often.
The ir phenomenon of a few yrs ago has been gone ages tbh.
Zero mug money in markets , all the short priced clickers trying to beat each other to an ever declining piece of pie, gone, long gone.
The ir phenomenon of a few yrs ago has been gone ages tbh.
Zero mug money in markets , all the short priced clickers trying to beat each other to an ever declining piece of pie, gone, long gone.
Simples. Winners need losers. Losers have departed (variety of reasons but economic climate doesn't help). Only surprise to me is that it lasted so long.....could never understand why some people were prepared to bet with the knowledge that others had an inbuilt advantage against them.
Two things are responsible for the decline on In Running Betting on here.
First and foremost is the Worldwide Recession which has removed much of the cash from the casual/mug punter who helped to fill the Pools.
Second,BF's unbridled greed in PC Charges which are applied to pre race punters as well which has driven many away and sent just as many skint.
The Market totals are utter bullshat,imo.
As Waza and others have said,"there is £3 by £4 available unless you are wrong when you will be matched.
Long gone are the days when the "boxes on here" were full up on all runners.
When 5.0 was showing available a fair way out I stuck up a £200 Lay @ 10.0 and got the princely sum of £6 matched with nobody trying to get in front of me.
As the OP said,"the game is gone".
First and foremost is the Worldwide Recession which has removed much of the cash from the casual/mug punter who helped to fill the Pools.
Second,BF's unbridled greed in PC Charges which are applied to pre race punters as well which has driven many away and sent just as many skint.
The Market totals are utter bullshat,imo.
As Waza and others have said,"there is £3 by £4 available unless you are wrong when you will be matched.
Long gone are the days when the "boxes on here" were full up on all runners.
When 5.0 was showing available a fair way out I stuck up a £200 Lay @ 10.0 and got the princely sum of £6 matched with nobody trying to get in front of me.
As the OP said,"the game is gone".
there are other factors why in-running may be declining .
more on course players , so those that use to have a big advantage and get better value price are now missing the value prices and having to share profits .
bots are being programmed better to play against the in-running punters , it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter .
players are getting better .
more on course players , so those that use to have a big advantage and get better value price are now missing the value prices and having to share profits .
bots are being programmed better to play against the in-running punters , it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter .
players are getting better .
Lots of ill informed rubbish here.
Roo RUK is 1 second behind the live action, the delay in 1 second!
Harold - `it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter.' What on earth are you on about? That would mean it used to be harder because lots of punters were taking too short prices!
The game is a long, long way from being dead. If Frogs stats are correct the markets have simply matured back to what they were in 2010.
Roo RUK is 1 second behind the live action, the delay in 1 second!
Harold - `it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter.' What on earth are you on about? That would mean it used to be harder because lots of punters were taking too short prices!
The game is a long, long way from being dead. If Frogs stats are correct the markets have simply matured back to what they were in 2010.
`it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter.'
what if you are a layer , would that make sense to you ?
what if you are a layer , would that make sense to you ?
No. I would like to see evidence that laying at certain prices has suddenly become more unprofitable in recent months.
I don't keep records , its just what I have observed . although someone that does keep records may prove me wrong .
Mullah,
What is not up for debate is the lack of liquidity.
The game may not be "dead" but,it is far from healthy.
What is not up for debate is the lack of liquidity.
The game may not be "dead" but,it is far from healthy.
it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter
what I meant by this is that it may be only 1 or 2 bots that are laying big ammounts at 2.0 and taking all the possible lays by in-runners below 2.0 , instead of letting the price fall to 1.7 or so .
what I meant by this is that it may be only 1 or 2 bots that are laying big ammounts at 2.0 and taking all the possible lays by in-runners below 2.0 , instead of letting the price fall to 1.7 or so .
If that was the case then isnt there clearly a big edge in the market for backing and you should be doing that.
I haven't said whether I back or lay , I was just pointing out why it may appear that in-running is declining
more on course players , so those that use to have a big advantage and get better value price are now missing the value prices and having to share profits .
bots are being programmed better to play against the in-running punters , it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter .
players are getting better
more on course players , so those that use to have a big advantage and get better value price are now missing the value prices and having to share profits .
bots are being programmed better to play against the in-running punters , it's not surprising when you look at the graph after a race that horses only go down to set prices where even a few months ago they would trade much shorter .
players are getting better
The BF "Cross Matcher" is definitely "taking out",imo.
It would be a surprise were it not racing star. Not right but not surprising either.....
What does the BF cross matcher actually do - does it beat the 1 second delay?
e.g. if two different players try to back two different horses at 1.8 for £1000 at exactly the same time does it?
1. Match them both at evens going them best price?
2. Match them both at 1.8 and pocket the difference?
e.g. if two different players try to back two different horses at 1.8 for £1000 at exactly the same time does it?
1. Match them both at evens going them best price?
2. Match them both at 1.8 and pocket the difference?
Thread title should read "The end is nigh for in running mugs that needed their huge time advantage now there is a more level playing field "
You will notice all the scaremongering is coming from track players. Been hearing every year since around 2007 that the game is up yet every good player I know that was making money back then is still making decent money now. Of course it has got harder,people have gradually got better and the track thieves are getting found out for what they are.The liquidity is down,the mug liquidity that is. The good players whether that be at the track or at home will continue to make decent money, the ones that were reliant on their time advantage will get stretchered out.
Technology was always going to catch up with you lot in the end.
You will notice all the scaremongering is coming from track players. Been hearing every year since around 2007 that the game is up yet every good player I know that was making money back then is still making decent money now. Of course it has got harder,people have gradually got better and the track thieves are getting found out for what they are.The liquidity is down,the mug liquidity that is. The good players whether that be at the track or at home will continue to make decent money, the ones that were reliant on their time advantage will get stretchered out.
Technology was always going to catch up with you lot in the end.
What is very clear is that the easy money from fools has long gone. There were times that even on ATR I managed to lay horses in the process of pulling up!
There are still some players not familiar with Irish colours and again even on ATR you can lay some fairly short who are simply not going to win.
If you have knowledge of the running style and riding style of horses that interest you it is possible to make modest money sat at home but it has without doubt got tougher. My emphasis has moved more to laying well backed horses early on in the market and waiting for the drift back which happens on a regular basis and if not placing in play keep bets which are leading to nice steady profits.
There are still some players not familiar with Irish colours and again even on ATR you can lay some fairly short who are simply not going to win.
If you have knowledge of the running style and riding style of horses that interest you it is possible to make modest money sat at home but it has without doubt got tougher. My emphasis has moved more to laying well backed horses early on in the market and waiting for the drift back which happens on a regular basis and if not placing in play keep bets which are leading to nice steady profits.
Jamesdean,
It has absolutely nothing to do with the "time lag" on RUK being reduced.
Lack of Liquidity is the real reason.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the "time lag" on RUK being reduced.
Lack of Liquidity is the real reason.
Can only report on personal experience as a play from home (RUK and LV) type, but although the markets do LOOK different (smaller amounts to back or lay, bigger gaps etc) I have not noticed any difference in getting matched/results recently for what I do.
i saw last week one evening, there was 40 odd games inplay on the soccer but only 3 or 4 had 20k or more in them. how on earth can you trade with such poor money available, to top that the new website has bugs galore and their email response times are non existent
andyl
21 Apr 13 23:51
Joined:
28 May 02
| Topic/replies: 1,832 | Blogger: andyl's blog
yes away meetings...never found ruk turf tracks so hard to play
Racingstar that above comment to me suggests the time difference to these track players is making a difference. It might not be the main difference but it is certainly a factor. Liquidity of course is another factor as is pc.
As Ged has said above he hasn't noticed any real difference and he like me and many others are not playing or used to playing with an advantage. Like I said the fittest will and are still making decent money, the guys that relied on their huge advantage are getting stretchered out.
They can blame the pc or liquidity but the truth is although they might not have been happy paying it they were still content to do so. Now the game has got harder,time advantages diminished and people got better the excuses are starting to flow like the river Thames.
Ask anyone who was making money 4 years ago without a time advantage if they are still making money, my guess would be 90% still are.
Ask all the track players if they are still making as much now it's more of a level playing field and my guess would be a lot less are. They are getting found out left right and centre. They are not winning like they used to in the early days so instead of admitting they are just thieves they blame everything and anything bar their lack of ability.
21 Apr 13 23:51
Joined:
28 May 02
| Topic/replies: 1,832 | Blogger: andyl's blog
yes away meetings...never found ruk turf tracks so hard to play
Racingstar that above comment to me suggests the time difference to these track players is making a difference. It might not be the main difference but it is certainly a factor. Liquidity of course is another factor as is pc.
As Ged has said above he hasn't noticed any real difference and he like me and many others are not playing or used to playing with an advantage. Like I said the fittest will and are still making decent money, the guys that relied on their huge advantage are getting stretchered out.
They can blame the pc or liquidity but the truth is although they might not have been happy paying it they were still content to do so. Now the game has got harder,time advantages diminished and people got better the excuses are starting to flow like the river Thames.
Ask anyone who was making money 4 years ago without a time advantage if they are still making money, my guess would be 90% still are.
Ask all the track players if they are still making as much now it's more of a level playing field and my guess would be a lot less are. They are getting found out left right and centre. They are not winning like they used to in the early days so instead of admitting they are just thieves they blame everything and anything bar their lack of ability.
gerard's blog
Can only report on personal experience as a play from home (RUK and LV) type, but although the markets do LOOK different (smaller amounts to back or lay, bigger gaps etc) I have not noticed any difference in getting matched/results recently for what I do.
Agreed,
I haven't changed what I do too much down the years. The last 3 months or so have probably been my most successful ever.
No end from what I can see. There is clearly less money about and we all know the main reason. But still enough in the markets to do ok.
Can only report on personal experience as a play from home (RUK and LV) type, but although the markets do LOOK different (smaller amounts to back or lay, bigger gaps etc) I have not noticed any difference in getting matched/results recently for what I do.
Agreed,
I haven't changed what I do too much down the years. The last 3 months or so have probably been my most successful ever.
No end from what I can see. There is clearly less money about and we all know the main reason. But still enough in the markets to do ok.
I was out of the game for 2 years and I much say it is way harder now even with ruk faster,smaller stakes and tiny profits
I'm not trying to get big bets on so maybe that's why I don't notice much difference but the idea that only good track players are/will be able to make a decent wage is wrong. Unless you have a warped idea of what a decent wage is.
On course boys are `thieves' LOL.
What era do we live in? Maybe in the old union days it was `after you claude' stuff, but dont think it was.
Do you ask for the slowest possible tv pics and internet connection James so you can be level with those who cant be bothered
travelling/installing the best equipment?
What era do we live in? Maybe in the old union days it was `after you claude' stuff, but dont think it was.
Do you ask for the slowest possible tv pics and internet connection James so you can be level with those who cant be bothered
travelling/installing the best equipment?
Thinly veiled "I'm not as good as I thought I was" thread.
In-running will continue, only your profits are dying!
In-running will continue, only your profits are dying!
ATR 2 seconds ahead of my BF Video for the Hexham 4-00.
Got to say there is some bs on here - mainly from dead money imo.
Plenty of opportunities in the markets - As has been said before those banking on time delays are the ones to suffer. - no strategy beyond time delay - bye bye.............
The in running markets are going nowhere - only the fittest most disciplined and wise will survive.
Evolve or die.
Plenty of opportunities in the markets - As has been said before those banking on time delays are the ones to suffer. - no strategy beyond time delay - bye bye.............
The in running markets are going nowhere - only the fittest most disciplined and wise will survive.
Evolve or die.
People like Wazza will always make loot at in running cos he's disciplined and a decent judge, also got the balls to do what he does. Andy is 100% right the PC is the main reason for decline. You now are backing at 1/2 an evens shot. Greed is the root of it. As the players fall away they will realise it but won't give two hoots cos they have made their money. When the PC came out I was talking to Wazza and he said no one would leave , and he was right. There was a great opportunity for people to do it but they wouldn't change colour
there is still a living to be made from in-running,just not as good as it used to be
That just about sums it up,Beard.
The reason is simple,there is not enough Liquidity.
End of subject.
The reason is simple,there is not enough Liquidity.
End of subject.
There's an awful lot of, what seems like trying to find excuses
The liquidity levels may have dropped to levels seen at the beginning of the decade.
But the liquidity levels for everyday, run-of-the-mill midweek meetings has dropped to levels, not seen for quite a few years before that.
This is by far the main reason and the greater risks taken by people
LIQUIDITY
The liquidity levels may have dropped to levels seen at the beginning of the decade.
But the liquidity levels for everyday, run-of-the-mill midweek meetings has dropped to levels, not seen for quite a few years before that.
This is by far the main reason and the greater risks taken by people
LIQUIDITY
What a mess Betfair have made of this. Should have been one of their strong selling points as bookmakers can't offer this service and it does provide extra entertainment even if you are not profitable. Surely they should have done more to keep the playing field less of a slope (esp. ATR).
I've being doing in-running from Home for a few years and I'm finding it more difficult to win and certainly there are some races I no longer bother with.
I've being doing in-running from Home for a few years and I'm finding it more difficult to win and certainly there are some races I no longer bother with.
RUK don't help with their new 12 month contract and Betfair should make LV cheaper not more expensive.
Is there much difference in liquidity between ATR tracks and RUK? i'm only a small and occasional player nowadays but won't even bother logging in this afternoon as everythings on ATR.
Welcome home Master Warwick.
Full recovery or is it still in a sling?
Full recovery or is it still in a sling?
Back the fav for a fiver, lay it back at the same price or a spot worse and it costs you pennies. Lay it back at shorter and they are paying you for LV!
Liquidity HAS dropped
reasons
Original players have become better over time so PC has limited them or killed them
Poor players dropping away and not same amount replacing them
less money spread over vastly increased fixture list and larger amount of horses aswell
Shift from horseracing to higher volume sports like football and tennis
Peoples view of racing in general is that its crooked so liabilities shorten and a lot don't bother
General effect off recessionary measures , less disposable income etc
And just a general evolvement of the product from its start when everyone was new to it and learning to today when most are experienced
Hard to fix , but they could start by marketing the product to new customers and dropping the amount off PC would be the best way
They still have the original and best product out there but im not sure where they want to go with it ,
Im not a big player like some but even I have seen there is a limit to what I can safely invest now in most horseracing markets , you just cant get out with the ease you used to be able to now
reasons
Original players have become better over time so PC has limited them or killed them
Poor players dropping away and not same amount replacing them
less money spread over vastly increased fixture list and larger amount of horses aswell
Shift from horseracing to higher volume sports like football and tennis
Peoples view of racing in general is that its crooked so liabilities shorten and a lot don't bother
General effect off recessionary measures , less disposable income etc
And just a general evolvement of the product from its start when everyone was new to it and learning to today when most are experienced
Hard to fix , but they could start by marketing the product to new customers and dropping the amount off PC would be the best way
They still have the original and best product out there but im not sure where they want to go with it ,
Im not a big player like some but even I have seen there is a limit to what I can safely invest now in most horseracing markets , you just cant get out with the ease you used to be able to now
Thats the trouble Beardy. Mugs don't do things like that. They don't even think about it. As soon as it's "brain required time " you've lost the masses.
Notice that there are no comments from Koo... on this subject, he will soon have to sell his string if IR is as bad as some make out!
The only thing that cretin will clean up are Toilets,Dunc.
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