How many horses murdered this week?

I believe that some members of society like you and your mates should be treated like horses,gelded to prevent your weakening of the gene pool.

Mr Angry doesn't answer any questions which undermine his position and just repeats himself.

Mr Angry, A question, where would you draw your line? I assume that you are not too keen on shooting and fishing, even for the pot!. But dressage?, showjumping? greyhound racing? terrier racing? Crufts?

Of course, I'm a vegetarian.  I believe that in this modern age there is no need to eat meat.

However, if it's a case of life and death then I would kill to eat.  That's natural.  I also support culling of animals, where necessary.

Where it's not necessary, why inflict suffering?

Why inflict suffering for no need?  What does that say about you?

Do you look after your six cats?

I don't know what that means.

Do you have pets?

Yes, two dogs.

Do you eat fish or other sea life, Mr Angry?

Do you own any humans?

No fish or sea life.

Thank you Mr Angry, but that does not answer my question. It help me understand your background but not your boundaries. The question gives numerous examples - a simple yes/not in favour will suffice to start.

Lots of pet dogs have miserable lives through neglect or lack of interest from their owners. If we're going to go through the whole 'is jumps racing justified' argument, why should we keep breeding pet dogs, just because some arse thinks they need to have an anonymous hound wandering along in their wake.

Thank you Mr Angry, but that does not answer my question. It help me understand your background but not your boundaries. The question gives numerous examples - a simple yes/not in favour will suffice to start.

Dressage, no (if the training leads to suffering)
Crufts, no (if the breeding leads to suffering)
Whateverelse, no (if it leads to suffering).

But why does being a racehorse lead to suffering?  (Apart from in the odd case.)  Many of those animals lead very enjoyable lives. So why should they not be given the right to live?

But why does being a racehorse lead to suffering?  (Apart from in the odd case.)  Many of those animals lead very enjoyable lives. So why should they not be given the right to live?

If there is no suffering, why the need to lower the fences at Aintree?

I see that Mr Angry avoided any answer to my GELDING thread, I am not surprised as it would probably have told us much more about his attitudes than he wants us to know.

about 3600 burgers give or take a few

You don't own humans do you Mr Angry but you will happily consider your dogs to be property and to buy and sell animals for your enjoyment why is that? Clearly you see a difference between humans and dogs but still attempt to make comparisons of roman gladiators with race horses.

Because people like you complain that it's unfair on the horses, Mr Angry

To be honest, I think the problems with the National are more to do with the number of horses than the fences, anyway.  I'd be happier with higher fences but only 20-25 good quality runners.

Mr Angry has said he would support animal culls in the right circumstances. As he appears to be opposed to the normal uses of thoroughbreds he presumably would support a cull instead.

Here's a concept to consider:

A horse race without jockeys.

Put the horses on the start line, then see which horse gets to the finishing line first, with no human interference.

SS I await his answer with interest

And why exactly would that help, Mr A???

Mr Angry has said he would support animal culls in the right circumstances. As he appears to be opposed to the normal uses of thoroughbreds he presumably would support a cull instead.

I do not understand.  Is this a statement or a question you would like me to answer?  If a question, please could you rephrase?

OK. Seeing that you have stated that you are opposed to the way most thoroughbreds are used and that it would be extremely cruel to dump them in the wild,would you support a cull ?

Heres a question put some dogs outside a pet shop and see which ones come round a housing estate to knock on your door and ask to have a leash put round their necks and have their balls cut off.

It's quite simple Mr Angry. Do you think all jump horses should be destroyed?  Because that's pretty much the logical conclusion of what you're saying.  Get rid of jump racing, and most of those horses will be killed.  And countless other happy horses of the future will be denied the chance to be born and live fulfilling lives.  Are you happy with that?

OK. Seeing that you have stated that you are opposed to the way most thoroughbreds are used and that it would be extremely cruel to dump them in the wild,would you support a cull ?

I would support forcing the owner to look after them until natural death.  Animal culling in the wild is necessary to maintain the balance of this world which we have affected.  Culling animals we deliberately breed is irresponsible, and a cop out.

If a horse really doesn't like jumps, Mr A, no amount of urging will make him go over. If he does jump, but only reluctantly, he's unlikely to do well in jumps racing, and connections will soon tire of putting him in for futile races and will, erm, find other solutions for him..

Most of those horses jump and race because they like doing so, just as agility dogs like jumping over mini fences and hurtling through tunnels.

COP OUT you got it right MR Angry you fool

If a horse really doesn't like jumps, Mr A, no amount of urging will make him go over. If he does jump, but only reluctantly, he's unlikely to do well in jumps racing, and connections will soon tire of putting him in for futile races and will, erm, find other solutions for him..

Most of those horses jump and race because they like doing so, just as agility dogs like jumping over mini fences and hurtling through tunnels.

So take the jockeys off.

But forcing them to run hard applies to flat racing as much as jumps. It also applies to 3 day eventing and show-jumping involves getting them to jump higher than you would think they want to. We'd better put them all down hadn't we. Including all yearlings,foals,broodmares,stallions as well as horses in training.

I would support forcing the owner to look after them until natural death.

Hate to break it to you pal, but nobody's going to be giving enough money for all those horses to be supported in fields and stables until their natural death.  The odd one will be kept on by some kindly owner. Most will be killed off if there's no jumps racing.

Mr Angry is either a wind up merchant or a liberal limp wristed blot on society...

Or a teacher...

The jockeys actually help with safety, Mr A.  They keep the horses under control. The last thing you want is a bunch of horses crashing into each other. It's bad enough when two greyhounds collide, but just imagine what carnage you'd get with riderless horses bumping each other!

So that argument in support now appears to be: don't ban racing or we'll kill all the horses!

I would say he is strong wristed.....practise

The jockeys actually help with safety, Mr A.  They keep the horses under control. The last thing you want is a bunch of horses crashing into each other. It's bad enough when two greyhounds collide, but just imagine what carnage you'd get with riderless horses bumping each other!

It's amazing that horses exist at all, having spent 65 million evolving without little men in coloured jerseys sitting on their backs stopping them bumping in to each other and keeping them safe.

Mr Angry
I can see in some areas where you are coming from - and indeed in an ideal world no animal nor human would suffer - however it would be very hard to live a life with these constraints  ie we would still probably be living in caves as a result of being 'held back'

Inadvertantly we are all very much to blame  - don't get me wrong ,if Horseracing or any sport was banned on cruelty/dangerous grounds i'd move on ,however i sat down and enjoyed a coffee made with milk,quite innocuous ,however   - i have contributed in some way to causing the death of a male calf ,something i'm not happy about ...but realise whatever avenue i take i am in some way part of the cause .

Like someone said, are we to ban cars becuase folk die in road accidents ?

No, that's not 'the argument in favour'. We've given others. However, what we'd like you to say is whether you'd be happy with thousands of horses being killed off?  (Because that *is* what will happen if people like you get your way and jumps racing is banned.)

I assure you, Mr A, there'd be very few horses living in this world today if it wasn't for racing.

you know how fec@ked up this country is when you get threads about animals that get care than children ffs

i will add , i'd be very wary of anyone who likes seeing pain purposely inflicted on animals

they are also very likely to do the same to their own children and partners imo

more care

rothko - folk who care about animals are not likely to come from a background where they arent going to care about  children ,it stands to reason - flawed argument

Coach, erm, why exactly does a male calf have to die in order to give you milk to put in your coffee???

because they are surplus to requirements at birth

Not always.

really so the plight of racehorses is the one theyt are going to fight on

the most pampered animals ever

i did have this same discussion (about racing) with someone the other day who eats intensively farmed chicken 

No, that's not 'the argument in favour'. We've given others. However, what we'd like you to say is whether you'd be happy with thousands of horses being killed off?  (Because that *is* what will happen if people like you get your way and jumps racing is banned.)

Some horses will die now, yes. But it's not about the horses.  It's about society.  The society in which we live, our civilization, exists in the ways it does because of the values it is built upon.  And it boils down to power.  What do we do with power?  Do you want to live in a society where power is used to inflict suffering?  It's why dog fighting is banned in this country.  It's why we treat our prisons with respect (even if they deserve none).  It's why we have restrictions on sports like boxing (even with freedom of choice, it protect the innocents).

Isn't training a dog cruel? why train them just so they behave themselves to make their owners life easier?

Dog fighting is vicious and savage.  Horse racing, for the most part, isn't.  That's why we still have one but don't have the other.    Most racehorses seem to have very contented lives.  That, to me, isn't brutality or abuse of power.

Thats the problem brother Mr A seems to be able to ignore all the suffering caused to pet dogs because he gets benefits from having dogs as pets however wants to tell those who own race horses what they should be doing because it won't affect him and reassures him that he is a considerate soul who cares for animals.

.. much suffering goes on to provide us with staple goods - clothes made in the 3rd world for example (modern slave trade)

food suppliers living in poverty because our UK supermarkets don't pay enough 

UK suffering (workers on very low pay and bullying tactics in the NHS for example)

I think we all conveniently overlook  things that don't affect us directly - maybe we are all hypocrates but i applaud Mr Angry for trying to make a difference  ,but HR is really tip of the iceberg stuff MAngry, but an easy target never the less

nothing crueler than mother nature ......and what about the luvly fluffy cute wee lambs running and springing around ?  should they be taken into social care before they are silenced and rubbed in mint ? 

liverpool is the place the fight is being staged as the lefty brigade dont like the lower classes taking part ...it irks with them

they want to take horses away from the man in the street ,horses are for toffs they think ,although in ire and many parts of the uk this is simply not true ,they dont like the lower classes participating in the sport of kings ,they want to end it .

Agreed. It's a very imperfect world. But if you think that horse racing is one of the cruelest aspects of the globe, your priorities are rather flawed.

any sort of animal fighting is barbaric
the grand national has become as safe as they can get it and i totally supported the ditches being filled in and the levelling off of the fences

breadnbutter - have heard this class argument before and i don't really get it  - it just shouts of class envy if you ask me (i'm not a toff myself btw ) 

Coachbuster...

I have read surveys where it has been proven that people who care about animals and live in a small family unit are more likely to commit incest and other illegal practices.The cuddling that goes on is not restricted to the rescued family kitten.Normal people who have had animals recognise that some die and some are to be eaten.Those who get too attached are more likely to read the Guardian and form alternative views....

Agreed. It's a very imperfect world. But if you think that horse racing is one of the cruelest aspects of the globe, your priorities are rather flawed.

Of course it's not one of the cruelest, nor the most important.  But it easily fixed.

It's very hard to say that somebody who loves animals will turn into X or Y.  Plenty of serial killers used to torture mice and dogs as children. On the other hand, plenty of people who love animals have, conversely, a very low opinion of humans.  It's probably a mistake to generalize too much.

Thats the problem brother Mr A seems to be able to ignore all the suffering caused to pet dogs because he gets benefits from having dogs as pets however wants to tell those who own race horses what they should be doing because it won't affect him and reassures him that he is a considerate soul who cares for animals.

That's a good point.  In justification for owning an animal, I don't inflict suffering.  I water, feed and exercise them.  I have trained them to behave (as I did my children).  I don't shove a cattle prod up their backsides to make them do things they don't want to do, nor do I whip them to force them to run faster.

of course coachbuster its just a means of dismantling the percieved  uk class system  ,as per the labour hunting ban ...no doubt some real geeks get taken in and think it is actually about animal welfare

Depriving thousands of animals of the good chance of leading a long and rather pleasant life is a very stupid place to start Mr A.  I can see it's pointless speaking to you about this though, so I won't bother again unless you actually have a point to make.

so I won't bother again unless you actually have a point to make.

Oh come one!  Four pages of points!

Mr Angry has trained his pets and children...

Bring on Social Services toot sweet the man is a control freak...!!

it is NH racing ...even though many tracks are now calling it jumping

them daft lefty loonies  thought they had stopped emm hunting but its still tally ho ....does anyone know the true origin of the national ?  why it was run ? 

'On the other hand, plenty of people who love animals have, conversely, a very low opinion of humans'.
_____________

that will be women of a certain age where the bloke has walked out for a dolly bird   

Okay, maybe I will bother just a bit more.   Lots of people do inflict suffering on dogs, so the fact that a good number of dogs live pleasant lives shouldn't blind ourselves to the countless miserable ones.   

And I do have conflicted feelings about keeping dogs as pets myself. Dogs are sociable by nature, and yet many are unhappy for large parts of the day because their owners go out and leave them alone for long periods. My boxer used to pine when I was out of the house - I know that because once he mistakenly thought I had gone out, and plus the neighbours told me he would whine for decent periods. Many dogs raised as pets will feel excluded from their 'human pack', either by being shut out of the bedroom, or left alone rather than being taken out for trips with the rest of the family.  Even when we care for our dogs, there's a good chance the dog won't be entirely happy with its unnatural lifestyle.

it is NH racing ...even though many tracks are now calling it jumping

them daft lefty loonies  thought they had stopped emm hunting but its still tally ho ....does anyone know the true origin of the national ?  why it was run ?

And the same reason why hunting was banned.  Not because the fox was culled, but because people were getting pleasure from having the fox hunted and culled (and culled by dog).  Pleasure from causing suffering.  Society cannot advance like that.

He posts a picture of himself that looks like she is hard...

He usually posts his libral b ull s hit on the football forum...

A sad pathetic individual who should not be allowed to post.

always used to leave radio 2 on for the dug when i went out but now  cruel and causing undue suffering ..... switched to 909

That's a good point.  In justification for owning an animal, I don't inflict suffering.  I water, feed and exercise them.  I have trained them to behave (as I did my children).  I don't shove a cattle prod up their backsides to make them do things they don't want to do, nor do I whip them to force them to run faster.

Did you have them castrated? Do you pull them around on leashes? clearly they don't have a choice when you train them you treat them as your property and assume power over them so that you have a better life? Do you feel justified in doing this because you feed water and excercise them (like the Romans did to the slaves)? How can you tell you are asking them to do something and not forcing them. Do you think the risk of your dogs ending up with someone who would cause them suffering is an acceptable one just because it means that you have the choice to own an animal to entertain you? Many racehorses don't suffer as your dog doesn't some racehorses do and some dogs do.

My ex-dog didn't pay much attention to music at all. The one exception was Julian Lloyd Webber. If ever the dog heard a cello, he'd start to run around howling and biting his tail...   Strange animals, dogs...

And I do have conflicted feelings about keeping dogs as pets myself. Dogs are sociable by nature, and yet many are unhappy for large parts of the day because their owners go out and leave them alone for long periods. My boxer used to pine when I was out of the house - I know that because once he mistakenly thought I had gone out, and plus the neighbours told me he would whine for decent periods. Many dogs raised as pets will feel excluded from their 'human pack', either by being shut out of the bedroom, or left alone rather than being taken out for trips with the rest of the family.  Even when we care for our dogs, there's a good chance the dog won't be entirely happy with its unnatural lifestyle.

Yes good point.  That's why we bought a second dog (a rescue animal), so they could keep one another company.  Not perfect.  I don't have the answer to that.  You could argue that zoos inflict suffering, but without zoos some species may become extinct.  Nothing is perfect.  But deliberately inflicting risk of death is indefensible.

I used to have a dog that would bite anyone that read the Guardian or was a teacher...

Loved that dog...RIP Thatcher....

Well there is an answer to that Mr Angry. If you're unhappy about it, stop dogs from being kept as pets. That's a simple answer. The fact that you might be going out of your way to avoid problems for your dog doesn't affect the fact that many owners take a very different view. The only way, according to your own logic, to prevent the suffering of the minority of dogs is to stop the whole thing.

Well there is an answer to that Mr Angry. If you're unhappy about it, stop dogs from being kept as pets. That's a simple answer. The fact that you might be going out of your way to avoid problems for your dog doesn't affect the fact that many owners take a very different view. The only way, according to your own logic, to prevent the suffering of the minority of dogs is to stop the whole thing.

Again, another good point.  They are "caged" animals in my own personal zoo.  Had I the choice again I would not have kept pets.  And I believe this habit will die in time too.

Well at least you're consistent then. Fair enough. I don't agree with you, but we're all entitled to our own opinion.  My personal credo is that I wouldn't inflict on another animal something I wouldn't be happy to accept myself.  Personally, I think the lot of a racehorse sounds pretty good compared to the alternative option of not existing at all, so I'm happy with it. Personally, I'd like to see the number of runners decreased, although I'm content with the difficulty of the fences.

You are the Worlds best wind up merchant Mr Angry..you certainly had me going.That will be no animals in the World left at all then..

I have to go now to have my sides stiched up.

Did you have them castrated? Do you pull them around on leashes? clearly they don't have a choice when you train them you treat them as your property and assume power over them so that you have a better life? Do you feel justified in doing this because you feed water and excercise them (like the Romans did to the slaves)? How can you tell you are asking them to do something and not forcing them. Do you think the risk of your dogs ending up with someone who would cause them suffering is an acceptable one just because it means that you have the choice to own an animal to entertain you? Many racehorses don't suffer as your dog doesn't some racehorses do and some dogs do.

I throw a ball, and the dog chases it.  It wants to.  I don't whip it to coerce it into chasing the ball.  And I don't throw the ball into a ditch of over a fence where I know the dog would chase it at risk to its own health.

Why run the risk of racing horses over hurdles.  Why not just flat?  Why not fit them with heart-rate monitors to stop then over-exerting?  Why force them to race with whips?

Well at least you're consistent then. Fair enough. I don't agree with you, but we're all entitled to our own opinion.  My personal credo is that I wouldn't inflict on another animal something I wouldn't be happy to accept myself.  Personally, I think the lot of a racehorse sounds pretty good compared to the alternative option of not existing at all, so I'm happy with it. Personally, I'd like to see the number of runners decreased, although I'm content with the difficulty of the fences.

Agreed.  We all have our opinions.  I'm glad to see Aintree changed to make it safer, but clearly still not safe enough (as other courses aren't).

Oh dear oh dear you really are a case...Mr Angry...

You are not really angry at all are you 

Why are you angry, Mr Angry? I'm not getting what you are on about?

He makes one or two good points - but some animal fanatics aren't happy unless you wrap your pets up in a wooly fleece and sing them a nursery rhyme before bed

Why are you angry, Mr Angry? I'm not getting what you are on about?

I've forgotten now.

'What are you rebelling against Angry?'

'Whadda ya got?'

one of the great fishing threads this

Get back to your Twitter page Aaron. You know your tweeps will be unhappy if you don't feed them their 70,000 tweets a day.

top class ...must have some time on his hands . brilliant stuff.

Not long ago, I noticed a woman wiping her dog's arse after it had dropped one. Feckin headcase, she probably read it bedtime stories.

She must just be concerned about what her dog might do to her living room carpet if it goes in, erm, unseen to, Alias.

I throw a ball, and the dog chases it.  It wants to.  I don't whip it to coerce it into chasing the ball.  And I don't throw the ball into a ditch of over a fence where I know the dog would chase it at risk to its own health.

Why run the risk of racing horses over hurdles.  Why not just flat?  Why not fit them with heart-rate monitors to stop then over-exerting?  Why force them to race with whips?

Come on you have just ignored all the pertinent questions I asked you and started talking about throwing a ball. Clearly you are uncomfortable about answering these questions. Saying yes to them doesn't make you a bad dog owner but does make a lot of what you think about horse racing hypocritcical.

I don't ask my dogs to do anything inherently dangerous.  Horse racing over hurdles (and sometimes over flat) is dangerous, or at least increases risk of death.  Why inflict that on an animal?  And especially why inflict it just for the pleasure of betting?

How can it be justified?

Being owned by you "Mr Angry" must be dangerous in itself...

Beastiality is a curse of the modern Liberal...