black caviars brother to race at royal ascot

Black Caviar the face of ascot 2013.

BLACK Caviar's comeback to racing begins at Flemington on Saturday - and it is not only her opponents that are chasing the mighty mare.

Race club officials in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide covet Black Caviar competing on their racetracks in coming weeks.

And after Black Caviar's famous win in the Diamond Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot last year, the English want to see more of the world's greatest sprinter.

Royal Ascot's Nick Smith is making the trip Down Under this week to watch Black Caviar's long-awaited return in the Group 1 $500,000 Black Caviar Lightning Stakes (1000m) and is carrying with him an invitation to bring the sport's biggest crowd-puller back to England in June.

"I have always consciously left the question of 2013 alone until now and intend to keep it that way until after the Lightning Stakes," Smith said.

"But I have been talking to (owners) Neil Werrett, Gary Wilkie and the team pretty regularly on and off since last June, and we've had dinner at home in London over the Olympics and over the Spring Carnival in Melbourne.

"I have been asked to the after-party (following the Lightning Stakes) so depending on how things have gone in the race, I'm sure we'll discuss Royal Ascot 2013.

"We were lucky that Black Caviar came last year and won and most people in the UK would say the anticipation and drama of that race was the highlight of Royal Ascot.

"We certainly took that view and have used her as the key image for our Royal Ascot marketing campaign."

In fact, Black Caviar features on the front cover and regularly throughout the Royal Ascot 2013 brochure, which the club uses to promote the famous race carnival.

Owner Neil Werrett said he was surprised to learn that Black Caviar is the pin-up horse for Royal Ascot this year.

"She is in all Royal Ascot's advertising campaigns - we are stunned," Werrett said.

"Frankel appears a little bit through the brochure but most of it is Black Caviar. Even in England last year, the press coverage leading into Royal Ascot was mainly about Black Caviar, not Frankel. The English just loved her."

Werrett said a return to England this year has not yet been discussed by Black Caviar's owners or trainer Peter Moody.

"I would say going back to Royal Ascot is very, very doubtful," Werrett said.

"We haven't even thought about it, we are just focusing on the Lightning. But I can say that everyone at Royal Ascot really looked after us last year, we had an extraordinary time, so we'll see what happens."

Smith said he realises the importance of the Lightning Stakes - Black Caviar's first start for eight months - and understands the mare's owners aren't thinking beyond Saturday's comeback race.

"We would love to have Black Caviar back, but the conversation has to wait until the appropriate moment," he said.

Smith is hopeful of persuading connections to return for an extended English campaign including three Group 1s.

"Perhaps they'd go for the King's Stand this year and then the double (Diamond Jubilee Stakes) maybe, and there's the Darley July Cup at Newmarket, too," Werrett said.

ROFL megsy,proves that the Ascot publicity bods are as thick as the Racing For Change muppets and you should not believe what tabloid newspapers print.The fact is she was a bit of a laughing stock in the right circles.

Milton Bradley has hinted that The Tatling might come out of retirement if she goes over to England,Dandy Nichols has said he has a couple of decent claimers who might take up the cudgel as well.

will take him on in the KingStand...this fella almost got the job done in the Cox Plate.

WALOFS, got so bad the Royal Enclosure was full of convicts on the Saturday, when she fell over the winning line.

Public Enemy had it right in their song - www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8sxngSWaU

TRAINER Peter Moody has told Black Caviar's rivals in Saturday's Black Caviar Lightning the one thing they don't want to hear: "I can't find a chink in her armour".

The queen of the turf had her final hitout at Caulfield yesterday, cruising over 800m in 50.8sec (last 600m in 36.65sec) to convince Moody she is ripe to notch her 23rd consecutive win.

"She is back, relaxed and scorching the turf, which is the whole reason she is running again," he said.

Moody said Black Caviar's condition and frame of mind were the equal of her peak form period, which was when she put together three wins in the spring of 2011.

"She is now like she was when she was winning races 15, 16 and 17 (including a romp in the Patinack Farm Classic)," he said.

"In the UK she was swishing her tail and getting cranky because she had come to the end of her campaign after 12 months of racing. But now she's back."


Black Caviar was nowhere near her best at Royal Ascot in England in June, having lost considerable condition after a long campaign.
She returned home, put on weight, worked on the water-walker and is now nearing peak condition after six weeks of trackwork, a jumpout and an exhibition gallop.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/peter-moody-whispers-the-words-black-caviar-cherry-ripe-to-put-fright-into-opposition-trainers/story-fn67siys-1226576519975

I watched ALL TOO SOON win his race at Caulfield last Saturday.

However - That was over 7 Furlongs (1400 metres) - where he beat the established Mile and a Quarter (2000 mtrs)/Mile and a half(2400mtrs) Mawingo  by half a length -
- as you would have expected him to do - although, with an admitted Smooth winning challenge in the final furlong.

The proximity of the West Australian, Mr Moet, in 3rd place just a further  head behind - and Mr Moet ALSO being an established 1m3f/Mile and a half horse - only really goes to show that ALL TOO SOON did no more than  precisely what you would have expected of him in that race.

With Wall Street, and the New Zealander, King Mufhasa ALSO only a further half a length and a Short-Head behind .... You cannot realistically be hailing ALL TOO SOON as the next FRANKEL, on this performance ...

Perhaps ALL TOO SOON is, aptly, well-named, in relation to the accolades being pout up by this result.

His previous neck 2nd to Ocean Park was, obviously a smarter performance - that coming over 1m 2f (2000 mtrs) Cox Plate.

Of more significance for the 1 mile Queen Anne - would be ALL TOO SOON's previous victory in the 1m(1600mtrs) Caulfield Guineas - where, of course, he beat the previously, 7-race, unbeaten Gai Waterhouse PIERRO.

I note that Pierro will not reappear at Flemington, on Saturday, which is a disappointment.

Still - all good stuff - and food for thought ..... and far better, and more interesting, than bashing your brains out at 'Lousy Lingfield' or the 'Dog Track' Wolverhampton..... and that from a True Brit, too.

One final thought ...

The Queen Anne is run over the more demanding STRAIGHT Mile ...

ALL races over further than Sprint distances, at most Australian tracks - are run AROUND A BEND.

I watched ALL TOO SOON win his race at Caulfield last Saturday.

However - That was over 7 Furlongs (1400 metres) - where he beat the established Mile and a Quarter (2000 mtrs)/Mile and a half(2400mtrs) Mawingo  by half a length -

education for you, all too hard ran 2nd 2000m ( 10f ) in the most prestige race in australia as a in-mature 3yr old...i suggest you look for another excuse as the trainer of mawingo stated before the race his horse was ready for a first up win,  Also mawingo had not won beyond 2000m and recently won 2 trial before 2nd to all too hard over 900m.

also check your records of the The Queen Anne stakes you will see a winner or 2 from australia.

2000m horses running in the ik have a near perfect record in group races, its not all about sprinters down here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOHQwFVpcAE


HARADASUN, won from 1100m to 1600m in australia, ran 3rd in australia's most prestige race over 2000m before winning the queen anne.

should we say a australian sprinter as you call them, beat your best milers that day? i dont think so.

Black Caviar had not run for 6 weeks before falling over the line at Royal Ascot and yet her trainer uses coming to the end of a campaign as an excuse..........I'd have given it more credibility if he had said the gap between races had been too long.

And what is it with you megsy that as soon as any ex-Aussie horse comes over here and wins that your default setting is that it must have beaten our best ones? Remind me again how Haradasun got in in the Lockinge that year, was it just the 5 of the 11 runners that finished ahead of him? All of Creachadoir, Phoenix Tower, Tariq, Cesare (promoted handicapper) and Arabian Gleam finished ahead of him that day, with him marginally turning around the form with Cesare and also reversing with Tariq and Arabian Gleam but wasn't re-opposed by the first two. Obviously the QA is for 4YOs and older so Haradasun wouldn't have been facing the classic generation milers like Henrythenavigator, Raven's Pass that between them won the 2000gns, SJP for 3YOs and then the Sussex Stakes, Goodwood Mile and Breeders' Cup Mile which were al races open to Haradasun, or he didn't face 3YO fillies like Natagora, Spacious, Nahoodh or Lush Lashes.

Was that also not the race or am I confusing it with another where an O'Brien runners moved off the rail to let Haradasun up the inside and then moved back over again to block off any other runner and that was when the team tactics issue was raised? Oh and presumably if the trainer could get the horse to win a Gr1 here then he does actually know how to train after all and improved the horse if your previous arguments regarding So You think are anything to go by.

Keep picking those cherries eh?

fcuk me dead, your alive???

Yep....and it's still "you're" too, as in you are.

Sadly - megsy always appears to want to adopt an aggressive attitude to these discussions ...... despite my good-natured post, stating ....

"Still - all good stuff - and food for thought ..... and far better, and more interesting, than bashing your brains out at 'Lousy Lingfield' or the 'Dog Track' Wolverhampton..... and that from a True Brit, too."

---------------------

In response to the HARADASUN 'platitudes' - a few facts ....

HARADASUN  - just happened to drop on probably one of the worst Queen Anne's ever ...

- and he did NOT, "beat(y)our best milers that day" ...

Because we had practically  beggar all in the race.

---------------------------

Ascot Result
17 Jun 2008
2:30 » Queen Anne Stakes (Group 1)

    (Class 1) (4yo+) 1m Good To Firm
   
1st  Haradasun (AUS) 5/1 5 9-0 A P O'Brien — 99 123 Johnny Murtagh
     
Prominent on rail, ridden over 2f out, disputed lead over 1f out, slight lead throughout final furlong, all out (tchd 9-2 and 11-2 in places)
   
2nd  hd Darjina (FRance) 5/1 4 8-11 A De Royer-Dupre — 96 120    
    Christophe Soumillon
     
Held up in midfield, ridden and headway 2f out, strong challenge and almost level with winner final 200yds, ran on well, just held (tchd 11-2 and 6-1 in a place)
   
3 ¾ Finsceal Beo (IREland) 9/2F     4 8-11 J S Bolger — 94 118
    Kevin Manning
     
Held up in touch, ridden over 2f out, disputed lead and hung left over 1f out, kept on, held by first 2 final 100yds (op 13-2 tchd 8-1 in a place and 7-1 in places)
   
4 nk Cesare 15/2 7yr 9-0 James Fanshawe     118 96 121 Jamie Spencer
     
Dwelt, held up towards rear, effort when not clear run and bumped inside final 2f, running on when blocked inside final furlong, switched left and nowhere to go, switched right and ran on well near finish (op 7-1)
   
5 nk Mount Nelson IREland33/1 4 9-0 A P O'Brien     — 96 120
    Seamie Heffernan
     
Prominent, ridden over 2f out, squeezed out over 1f out, rallied and kept on final furlong
   
6 nk Sageburg (IREland) 15/2 4 9-0 t A De Royer-Dupre — 95 119
    Olivier Peslier
     
Took keen hold, held up towards rear, effort over 2f out, driven to press leaders over 1f out, one pace (op 13-2 tchd 8-1 in a place)
   
7th ½  Spirito Del Vento (FRance) 20/1 5 9-0 J-M Beguigne — 94 118
    Christophe-Patrice Lemaire
-----------------------------------

ANALYSIS
---------   

A tactical affair with team O´Brien conducting proceedings....

As such Haradasun, who had the pace to win over 51/2f and 6f in his native Australia and sat handy behind his stablemate, was advantaged while neither of the fillies Darjina nor Finsceal Beo were along with the winner´s stablemate Mount Nelson.
The sixth running as a Group 1 and once again the Lockinge result was reworked in what was an unsatisfactory race in that there was plenty of interference, the result of a steady pace leading to a sharp 3f dash to the line with the first eight covered by three lengths.
There was a strong feeling that this was not a strong renewal, despite the requisite array of Group 1 winners, with Godolphin (three of last five winners of this) unable to field either last year´s winner Ramonti or Lockinge winner Creachadoir, who held bragging rights over many of these.

HARADASUN failed to win in seven after his sole Grade 1 in Australia although probably not staying the 10f he tried towards the end.
More worryingly, he was awarded cheekpieces twice at the end of a sequence of seven placings. He looked sure to benefit from his British debut in the Lockinge, where another slow pace produced a similar scenario to this with a dash home in which he was off the pace and failed to get the clearest run through.
He is quite a keen-going sort and he took time to hit top stride in the sprint as he hugged the stands´ rail but with his stablemate Honoured Guest waving him through, he just prevailed.
----------------------

Incidentally - HARADSUN has not been seen since.

Rushed off to Stud by Coolmore - following this fortuitous, and contrived, success - no doubt with the intention cashing in on him becoming a Shuttle Stallion.

sadly onlooker you have the assumption i am,( agreesive)...further from the truth

i will throw another in for you "starcraft" 2nd in australia's prestige race over 2000m winner from 1400-2000m in australia, won the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes grp1 and the Netjets Prix du Moulin de Longchamp grp1

All Too Hard is a very nice horse but no superstar.

About 4 lenghts inferior to So You Think at the same stage in their careers, would be a fair assessment.

Feb 13, 2013 -- 7:32AM, onlooker wrote:

Sadly - megsy always appears to want to adopt an aggressive attitude to these discussions ...... despite my good-natured post, stating ...."Still - all good stuff - and food for thought ..... and far better, and more interesting, than bashing your brains out at 'Lousy Lingfield' or the 'Dog Track' Wolverhampton..... and that from a True Brit, too."---------------------In response to the HARADASUN 'platitudes' - a few facts ....HARADASUN  - just happened to drop on probably one of the worst Queen Anne's ever ... - and he did NOT, "beat(y)our best milers that day" ...Because we had practically  beggar all in the race.---------------------------Ascot Result17 Jun 20082:30 » Queen Anne Stakes (Group 1)    (Class 1) (4yo+) 1m Good To Firm    1st  Haradasun (AUS) 5/1 5 9-0 A P O'Brien — 99 123 Johnny Murtagh      Prominent on rail, ridden over 2f out, disputed lead over 1f out, slight lead throughout final furlong, all out (tchd 9-2 and 11-2 in places)     2nd  hd Darjina (FRance) 5/1 4 8-11 A De Royer-Dupre — 96 120         Christophe Soumillon      Held up in midfield, ridden and headway 2f out, strong challenge and almost level with winner final 200yds, ran on well, just held (tchd 11-2 and 6-1 in a place)     3 ¾ Finsceal Beo (IREland) 9/2F     4 8-11 J S Bolger — 94 118     Kevin Manning      Held up in touch, ridden over 2f out, disputed lead and hung left over 1f out, kept on, held by first 2 final 100yds (op 13-2 tchd 8-1 in a place and 7-1 in places)     4 nk Cesare 15/2 7yr 9-0 James Fanshawe     118 96 121 Jamie Spencer      Dwelt, held up towards rear, effort when not clear run and bumped inside final 2f, running on when blocked inside final furlong, switched left and nowhere to go, switched right and ran on well near finish (op 7-1)     5 nk Mount Nelson IREland33/1 4 9-0 A P O'Brien     — 96 120     Seamie Heffernan      Prominent, ridden over 2f out, squeezed out over 1f out, rallied and kept on final furlong     6 nk Sageburg (IREland) 15/2 4 9-0 t A De Royer-Dupre — 95 119     Olivier Peslier      Took keen hold, held up towards rear, effort over 2f out, driven to press leaders over 1f out, one pace (op 13-2 tchd 8-1 in a place)     7th ½  Spirito Del Vento (FRance) 20/1 5 9-0 J-M Beguigne — 94 118    Christophe-Patrice Lemaire-----------------------------------ANALYSIS---------   A tactical affair with team O´Brien conducting proceedings....As such Haradasun, who had the pace to win over 51/2f and 6f in his native Australia and sat handy behind his stablemate, was advantaged while neither of the fillies Darjina nor Finsceal Beo were along with the winner´s stablemate Mount Nelson. The sixth running as a Group 1 and once again the Lockinge result was reworked in what was an unsatisfactory race in that there was plenty of interference, the result of a steady pace leading to a sharp 3f dash to the line with the first eight covered by three lengths. There was a strong feeling that this was not a strong renewal, despite the requisite array of Group 1 winners, with Godolphin (three of last five winners of this) unable to field either last year´s winner Ramonti or Lockinge winner Creachadoir, who held bragging rights over many of these.HARADASUN failed to win in seven after his sole Grade 1 in Australia although probably not staying the 10f he tried towards the end. More worryingly, he was awarded cheekpieces twice at the end of a sequence of seven placings. He looked sure to benefit from his British debut in the Lockinge, where another slow pace produced a similar scenario to this with a dash home in which he was off the pace and failed to get the clearest run through. He is quite a keen-going sort and he took time to hit top stride in the sprint as he hugged the stands´ rail but with his stablemate Honoured Guest waving him through, he just prevailed.----------------------Incidentally - HARADSUN has not been seen since.Rushed off to Stud by Coolmore - following this fortuitous, and contrived, success - no doubt with the intention cashing in on him becoming a Shuttle Stallion.

Gee even English horses don't give a **** about racing at Ascot.  Guess there is plenty of G1s though.  They can near have 1 each and never race against anything.

Black Caviar will race heavier in the Lightning Stakes, but Moody noted she raced 40kg below her usual racing weight in the Diamond Jubilee

Royal Ascot's international equine recruiter Nick Smith is not giving up that easily. He will be at Flemington tomorrow with an invitation for connections to bring Black Caviar back to England this year.

Maybe Moody and Werrett can be tempted by stroking their competitive ego to give Black Caviar the chance to show her absolute best on the international stage although Smith doesn't consider the mare has anything to prove.

"Black Caviar has always been a little fragile and something didn't go quite right in the run up to the race, clearly, but it still frustrates me a little that some people can't see what a defining performance her Diamond Jubilee win was," Smith said.

"Like Frankel in the Champion Stakes, she proved that she can win in adversity when things don't fall for you.

"She beat the best sprinter in Europe (Moonlight Cloud) whilst carrying some kind of injury and the second horse went on to win two Group 1s after that.

"The owners and Pete know what it's all about and will do what is best for the horse in the end, I'm sure. Pete knows as much about training a horse for Royal Ascot as any domestic trainer."



full story

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/black-caviar-managing-owner-neil-werrett-says-we-thought-she-was-finished-after-royal-ascot/story-fn67siys-1226578228162

megsy - ex-Australian MENTAL won well at Meydan, Dubai, yesterday afternoon.

First time on the Tapeta (Artificial Surface) - and in rear for most of the race -

But the pacesetters went 46.47. for the first 800 metres - and, obviously could not keep that up, and fell away quickly -
- leaving Mental to come through smoothly and beat South African Kavanagh, and Krypton Factor (who was a 2 length 6th to Black Caviar at Ascot - and won last year's Golden Shaheen, in Dubai) by a length, and three-quarters.

if you need help with these quadwits megsy, just let me know.

Aren't you sick of those cherries yet megsy?

Please tell us how many times Starcraft won in UK/Europe? Oh and it was so obvious that the horse only won due to UK based trainers improving him just as it has laughingly been suggested that donkeys from here that go and win Gr1s over there have been improved by the Aussie trainers or that O'Brien can't train and only Cumming(s) can with respects to So You Think.

I'll save you the trouble of looking up the horse's record and inform you that it was beaten 3rd 2L behind Valixir in the Queen Anne and even behind a real strong pulling headbanger like Rakti in 2nd and ½L ahead of the Gr3 winner Mac Love. The was 6th of 7 and beaten 11L in the Eclipse in a decent Gr1 behind horses like Oratorio and Motivator, although Motivator would be a long way short or a top class Derby winner.

Add to that Starcraft won a 6 runner QEII from the 3YO Dubawi that flopped in the 2000gns and Derby and having run down the centre of the course in the wrong group when they split into two lots, then had to track over to the near side to still only be beaten ¾L, whilst Starcraft ran up the inside rail all the way and even Dubawi's 6YO and 100/1 pacemaker beat the other 3 home, 2 of which were poor, including O'Bien's 9/1 representative in only a 6 runner race so that told you enough about that ones chances but they were still beaten by the previously mentioned Rakti pulling too hard and failing to settle.

Oh and talk about manipulating things, since when has the miler Moonlight Cloud been the best sprinter in Europe?

Yes Moonlight Cloud won 2 Gr1s after that, at 6½f which some results services have rounded up to 7f but either way  is a bit of a hybrid distance and was on ground described as Very Soft, which would have suited her as a miler as opposed to the sprinters in behind and the other Gr1 race she won at a mile was a 4 runner affair where she beat a 10f horse by a head that has only ever won a handicap at a mile and was beaten 6L by Frankel at a mile and 7L by him at 10f on Frankel's first try at the trip. In between Moonlight Cloud was beaten 1¾L at a mile by Excelebration and was well behind that horse again in the Breeders' Cup, so there is plenty of associated form to suggest Frankel would have demolished Black Caviar at any trip you chose.

you've got him rattled megsy, he's pulling rubbish out of his ass left, right and centre

soon he will be telling us a horse was a 2 time sprinter of the year award winner, only to realize those 2 years were actually the same season, clueless springs to mind

LOL......you still clutching onto that straw are you after I've admitted a genuine mistake from seeing a horses listed as an award winner as 2008-2009 which considering our seasons here are within one calendar year, I don't think it's an unreasonable mistake to make and I've never claimed to be an expert on UK racing, let alone Aussie or elsewhere racing

Although I'm afraid I can't top you as the bloke who asked how old are our horses that run in classics over here and was telling us Black Caviar would be inconvenienced going right handed around a bend at Ascot despite it being a straight race!

As far as laughingly being supposedly rattled and "pulling rubbish out of his ass left, right and centre" then perhaps you could point out what was inaccurate in my previous post? Not liking the facts doesn't make them any less facts I'm afraid.

you wanna talk about picking cherries, really? you ****g idiot, you couldn't of said anything else to make you look any more stupid

ima_mazed66 • February 15, 2013 3:57 AM GMT
Oh and talk about manipulating things, since when has the miler Moonlight Cloud been the best sprinter in Europe?

Yes Moonlight Cloud won 2 Gr1s after that, at 6½f which some results services have rounded up to 7f but either way  is a bit of a hybrid distance and was on ground described as Very Soft, which would have suited her as a miler as opposed to the sprinters in behind and the other Gr1 race she won at a mile was a 4 runner affair where she beat a 10f horse by a head that has only ever won a handicap at a mile and was beaten 6L by Frankel at a mile and 7L by him at 10f on Frankel's first try at the trip. In between Moonlight Cloud was beaten 1¾L at a mile by Excelebration and was well behind that horse again in the Breeders' Cup, so there is plenty of associated form to suggest Frankel would have demolished Black Caviar at any trip you chose.

rounded it up to 7f, which you've then rounded it up to a mile to suit your argument, completely dispensing the fact that it wasn't a mile, it was 6 1/2f, I want you to hobble on outside with your wooden leg and your greased up artificial hip, jump on a bike, then I want you to ride that bike 6 1/2f, then I want you to ride it again for a mile, then tell me the difference between 6 1/2f and a mile, I don't care if it's raining or snowing (these are the only options given where you reside), 6 1/2f is never a mile, not now, not ever.

you want to talk about the soft ground and how it would suit Moonlight Cloud over any sprinter, best you talk about Black Caviar in that same sentence or you are doing exactly what you have pulled megsy up for, cherry picking.

I noticed you took some time off, you surely weren't spending your time off at any sort of education facility because you're still as stupid as you ever were

mugboy66, I never claimed to not know the age of classics and I never said Black Caviar would be inconvenienced at Ascot, you've got the wrong guy pal, the more you write the stupider you look

ima_mazed66 • February 15, 2013 4:40 AM GMT
LOL......you still clutching onto that straw are you after I've admitted a genuine mistake from seeing a horses listed as an award winner as 2008-2009 which considering our seasons here are within one calendar year, I don't think it's an unreasonable mistake to make and I've never claimed to be an expert on UK racing, let alone Aussie or elsewhere racing

the mistake you made was simple, you thought you could make a judgement on Australian racing, when in actual fact you proved to the world you haven't got a clue about Australian racing, I never have commented on your classic races, why? because I don't pretend to know about things that have been researched on the internet, you're just a mug relying on racing post and wikipedia to backup whatever you have to say

just now you've said you have never claimed to be an expert, great! stop trying to be one with your ridiculous "he beat this horse by this far and then that horse went on to do this on that ground" because I can tell you exactly what it's called, cherry picking.

hypocrite.

What language is couldn't "of" please? And then you have the cheek to call others idiots and go on about their education......your lack of self awareness is hilarious.

I made several points regarding Scenic Blast when the Aussies on here were claiming theirs are the best sprinters in the world when they cherry pick the wins and ignore the losses, so claimed Scenic Blast the best sprinter in the world of that particular time. All of my responding points were valid other than instead of being the horse was one time Australian Champion Sprinter, I said it was twice although it was also Australian Champion Racehorse of the (same) Year and you've had a hard on over that every since. I suspect that's mainly because you can't counter any of the numerous other valid points I was making at the same time, for example the Aussie horses tend to do better over here at 5f, such as Scenic Blast winning the King's Stand by ¾L from Fleeting Spirit but was then beaten 6¾L by the same horse at 6f when 10th of 13 or that after that Scenic Blast was next beaten in Tokyo, Hong Kong and USA and never won again in 12 starts after Ascot or that Fleeting Spirit won the Cartier Award for Top Sprinter that season but because you can't handle the facts as opposed to cherry picking, you have to continuously clutch hold of straws and quibble over a minor mistake in the finer detail. Once, twice or however many times Scenic Blast was Champion Aussie Sprinter or Aussie Champion Racehorse of the Year, it's still a bit of a stretch to claim he was the best sprinter in the world at that time. So in actual fact I wasn't even making a judgement about Aussie racing per se and more about how it stands up globally by comparison to elsewhere.

And of course I use the Racing Post site to check details, as if I was to ask you regarding Black Caviar in her first Gr1 win, which horses were 2nd and 3rd, what was the winning distance and winning time are you really trying to tell me you would know all of that off the top of your head without looking it up? I very much doubt it mate! Oh and if I were to say Luke Nolen (good job I spelt his name right eh or else you would clutch onto that too) seemingly gets on well with Black Caviar and from the day he won her first Gr1 on her they have looked the perfect partnership, that he seems to have a quiet and forgiving riding style and then 101 other valid and accurate points, you would choose to focus on the one discrepancy to clutch at straws as if that renders everything else I've said redundant, which is pretty pathetic really.

Oh and on the subject of education both academically and your racing one, you clearly have trouble with the English language as I haven't rounded up anything to a mile regarding Moonlight Cloud and said her next race after Ascot was 6½f which some results services have rounded up to 7f and her next after that was at a mile. You've also totally missed the point about the ground too in that if sprinters (of which Moonlight Cloud isn't one anyway) are racing at 6½f to 7f on very soft ground then that is more likely to blunt their speed and stretch their stamina and suit a 7f to a mile horse, which Moonlight Cloud is. Black Caviar ran on ground at Ascot described officially as Good but did so against sprinters anyway other than the likes of Moonlight Cloud, so there wasn't any particular emphasis on stamina to disadvantage Black Caviar.

Oh and just changing your user name and then denying what you have previously said isn't fooling anyone when you can still clearly be identified by little nuances in your posting style and even your newer user name is a bit of a give away too.

So if there's anything else written in basic English that you don't understand like how I never said 6½f is rounded up to/equal to a mile (just because you probably round up your 2½ incher to 4 inches) then let me know and I'll break it down into bite size pieces for you to try to take in a little easier.

Those that use opinions to disfigure Black Caviar,s rightful place as the best sprinter for some time

should obtain a cheap calculator and work out the difference between her splits for a furlong compared

to the pedestrian attempts by all UK sprinters last year, perhaps then you will get over her narrow

victory whilst being wrongly relaxed by the jockey and carrying an injury in a group one race.

I don't think too many are denying Black Caviar is a decent horse but at Ascot she beat mostly millers and hybrid distance horses like Moonlight Cloud and Restiadargent and then promoted handicappers from the UK, with her only serious rival Society Rock losing at least 6L on her and 12L on the field after the jockey was shouting no to the starter who let them go as the horse was sat down in the stalls. Yet he was still only beaten 2L by her despite the jockey having little choice but to ride the horse full race after missing the break instead of taking up a position, meaning it had little left at the finish.

Nobody knows if any injury occurred during the race to have affected her and if there was one it could have happened post race or even the next day and the fact the jockey didn't dismount and rode up and down the track again in a impromptu victory parade seems to suggest there wasn't too much wrong with her and certainly not enough for him to be concerned about it anyway.

As for her splits well she only has one race to judge on outside of Australia where at home for her I would imagine the ground would be decent and on flat courses, whereas at Ascot it's slightly up hill at the start and finish and is a stiff 6f where she looked to be tying up even before the jockey eased her right at the death, which was only for a stride or two and might have been the reason why he did anyway.

Her final 4f times on the 5th day on Good ground after the rain had stopped leading up to the meeting were 11.66, 11.40, 10.84 and 13.70 compared to Frankel's final 4f on the opening day at a mile on ground described as being Good to Soft with him eased down in the final furlong due to the 11L winning margin being 11.26, 10.58, 11.04 and 14.01 with the 10.84 being her fastest furlong between the 2f-1f poles and Frankel's fastest being the 10.58 between the 5f-6f poles.

ima_mazed66 Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
Add contact When: 15 Feb 13 03:57

Oh and talk about manipulating things, since when has the miler Moonlight Cloud been the best sprinter in Europe?


ummm, moonlight cloud has won 3 times 6,61/2f and 4 times at 7f, once at the mile, so tell me know it all how she is a specialised miler?? and by the way, who brought you into the conversation? i was disscussing things with onlooker, but as usual you cant help yourself


and your the know it all who said australia's prestige sprints are run at moonee valley

and UK sprinters are more disadvantage if they had to travel to australia...ffs

give credit where due, listen to the experts,copying from wikipedia dont make you an expert.

even your top jockey was suprised BC won with no core strength and for a mare who had been up nearly 12 months to travel half way around the world with little condition, 40 kgs under her racing weight and to front up in the ascot mounting yard swishing her tail, head on the side not wishing to be there,struggling after 600m under no pressure, with a toen muscle tells you a really good horse only could do what she a "mare" did.


secondcoming.....i heard imamazed hocked his computer over xmas to buy a turkey for xmas, the guy in the pawn shop wanted to know why a turkey wanted a turkey

onlooker, thanks for that information, yes mental was a very good horse in australia, nothing too special about 20lbs inferior to black caviar, he had previously won at 6,7 and a mile.
he's last win was in the patinack classic group 1 he's first at that level.
probably 10 lengths inferior to BC and Krypton Factor was placed behind mental which also tells you the real BC didnt come to race at royal ascot.

cheers

She's won 22 races without defeat, beaten the best sprinters in Australia, these sprinters include horse who have come out and won in other countries, the likes of Scenic Blast, Ortensia, Mental, yet the best accolade you can muster up is that she's "decent"?

Get a grip you moron, learn to accept the best sprinter in the world is Australian.

Don't bring sectionals between Frankfurt and BC into the equation, he raced on the opening day, she raced on the last day on a rain effected track, I don't care what the going was, if it rains and horses run through it during this time, it's going to be harder to get through the ground, I am no irrigation expert but common logic would tell you so.

You said it yourself "nobody knows when the injury occured" so stop speculating and hoping it happened after the race because let's face facts, if it happened during or before the race and she still beat everything that turned up on the day, I am afraid you've witnessed the greatest sprinter of all time but you're too much of a brat to concede how good she really is.

One more thing, it's ok for you to mention Society Rock was ridden hard all the way to only get beat 2L (according to you), however when you made your assessment on Ortensia's victory in England last year, you were saying it was a bad thing that Ortensia was under hard riding the whole way, despite winning with an electric turn of speed.

What was that phrase again, cherry picking?

**** off idiot.

why such vitriol?

it detracts from rather than enhances the validity of your views, imo.

how much do you think black caviar is tainted by the cloud hanging over her trainer's stable, or the question marks

i read an open letter online, written by an australian, which was very scathing

i've just tried to find the link, deleted it. I will post it when I can get it re-sent to me.

Feb 15, 2013 -- 9:21AM, Happy Valley wrote:

why such vitriol?it detracts from rather than enhances the validity of your views, imo. how much do you think black caviar is tainted by the cloud hanging over her trainer's stable, or the question marksi read an open letter online, written by an australian, which was very scathing

I don't like his inability to understand how good a horse can be (or is) purely because his patriotic ways are blinding him from the truth. Surely at some stage it must occur "oh wow, she's something else", obviously hasn't happened yet after 22 consecutive wins.

I understand Frankel is the best horse the world has seen in recent times, it's time for him to understand Black Caviar is the best sprinter the world has seen in recent times, too. Everything he says is brought upon by endless reading of articles that support his argument, all his form figures and the like, they're all cherry picked figures, yet he has the nerve to call out megsy for cherry picking. When SYT hit the scene many were writing him off purely because of the country he raced in and fair enough too, our middle distance horses are not historically the best things going around but our sprinters, that's another matter.

I can't converse with him from a factual point of view because his bias will always be a hindrance to any sort of discussion he wishes to take part in involving horses from another land, this is a forum where discussions are meant to be had, I can have a discussion with onlooker (I haven't but I easily could). Not the case with wikimug66, unfortunately.

this link may interest those on either side of this debate www.lucky88.com.au

it is from an australian tipping site, I believe.

http://lucky88.com.au/

sorry guys i've bowled bit of a wrong 'un there, the amazing open letter to Victoria's Racing Authority which was up on this site is no longer there, I guess because a few weeks have passed since it was originally posted.

if i come across a copy of it, I will post it.

Please show me megsy where I have said Moonlight Cloud was a "specialised" miler as you used that word and not me.

I've said she was a miler seeing as that's the trip she seems to have settled on for her last 3 races, the last of those being the Breeders's Cup Mile (the clue is in the race title) but certainly not a sprinter and even mentioned the hybrid distance in reference to 7f. Plus to quote myself even said regarding her in my post above with respects to the sprinters that it would "blunt their speed and stretch their stamina and suit a 7f to a mile horse, which Moonlight Cloud is" but I can see you are still having trouble retaining information even when it's right there on a screen in front of your eyes. Regardless though, since when do horses have to be multiple winners at a distance for it to be considered their distance? If a horse runs half a dozen times at a mile in it's full career and wins only one is it not a mile horse? Moonlight Cloud has run 4 times at a mile and her second start as a 3YO was at a mile too in the 1,000gns......and if you don't want people commenting on what you say on a public forum then take it private and don't post public. It's not rocket science.

You don't know anything about what I did or didn't say regarding Mooney Valley once again due to your difficulty retaining information and I bet even your wellies have to be labelled so as you know which foot to put them on. The only times I've ever said anything about Mooney Valley was when Aussies asked why didn't our sprinters chance coming over for Aussie sprint races seeing as the prize money is high. So I said we have our season here starting in March to ending in November where our sprinters will run in our Gr1 sprints or those in Ireland or France and so any Aussie sprints falling outside of those dates like the Mooney Valley ones in January are in our winter time before our flat season starts or in October, where not only is it then end of our season but our top sprinters will be aimed at the Prix de l'Abbaye and Breeders' Cup. Then there was the laughably claim that Black Caviar would be at a disadvantage at Ascot going around a bend despite it being a straight race and I pointed that out, as well as saying she had won going around a bend numerous times anyway such as at Mooney Valley, so your retaining information problems are letting you down again, where because of it you continuously wrongly attribute things to me that I haven't actually said and me supposedly rounding up 6½f to a mile and claiming Moonlight Cloud as a specialised miler are classic examples of you doing this yet again.

Add to that I also didn't say UK sprinters are disadvantaged by travelling to Australia (I'm surprised you even remember your own name with your retaining information problems) and what I actually said was if any came over for your sprints outside of our season then it will be in our winter months when often it snows here and trainers aren't able to work their horses on turf and would be going over and racing either far earlier in the year at the beginning and would probably have to do so without a recent previous run, or far later in the year around October/November time off the back of a long season where they have probably been on the go since March/April and that's the reason why they would be disadvantaged. I also said if they were to go over and back again 3-4 times for certain races then the travelling would be enough of a factor to make it more sensible to transfer the horse to an Aussie trainer for good and keep the horse over there....but that translates in the empty head of megsy land as something totally different to you somehow.

I see you are still burying your head in the sand too and ignoring things you don't like and can't answer in the hope that nobody will notice, such as nobody can say where her convenient injury occurred anyway or why the jockey didn't dismount and even rode her back up and down they track with supposedly torn muscles. Funny too how her vet found nothing wrong with her with scans and x-rays, so they let the chiropractor have a go instead.....and is she scanned and x-rayed after every race?

And if that pawn shop line was your p1ss poor attempt at humour, it was about as funny as spotting a floating turd in a jacuzzi and of course it's beyond your comprehension that I was here all the time but just choosing not to post because that would take a bit of thinking on your part wouldn't it?

Yes Second Coming, she's won 22 races and that makes her exceptional on that count alone but that was against predominately Aussie rivals and the one time she came over here she fell over the line looking punch drunk and treading water. Most of those other Aussie horses she has beaten that you have named may well have won the odd race outside of Australia but they were well spanked in an awful lot more (hence yours and Megsy's cherry picking) and most wins were a lot narrower than the absolute hidings they got when they were well beaten and yet we have deluded Aussies claiming their sprinters are the best in the world.

The ground at Ascot was worse on the opening day you fcking d1ckhead and it had been raining in the days leading up to Ascot so Frankel got the worst of the ground at Good to Soft compared to Black Caviar who raced on Good ground after the rainy spell had ceased. That's the very reason they give ground conditions and even Turftrax had the ground on day one listed as Good to Soft but by day 5 they had it as only Good to Soft on the round course only which is where they finish on the far side (just as Frankel did despite running on the straight course) but Good on the straight course and near rail which Black Caviar ran up....The fact Society Rock ran well at Ascot all things considered despite having a poor record on soft or heavy goes to show the ground wasn't that bad, especially when you consider he came out next time and was beaten 6L in 3rd on Heavy, then won a Gr1 on Firm and was then beaten 5th on Soft the time after that where horses behind him previously on Firm reversed the form.

Yes I did say nobody knows when her convenient injury occurred, which is why I'm not making any ludicrous claims on that but it hasn't seemed to bother you deluded Aussies from doing so and if the so called best sprinter in the world struggled to beat a miler when falling over the line and that miler has been well beaten twice since then, the sprinting division world wide must be totally sh1t then.

Oh and you've totally missed the point (no surprise there then) about the difference between Society Rock being left 12L at the start when sat down in the stalls as the gates opened and having to be ridden all the way just to try to make a race of it, compared to Ortensia being run off her feet in the early stages and struggling to beat handicappers that were coming back to her at the finish and it's not "according to me" that Society Rock finished only 2L behind Black Caviar despite giving her 6L start, it's there in the record books or online records as a fact.....Oh and remind me again what happened to Ortensia when she finished 12th of 13 and 9½L behind Society Rock? Oh yeah, she had a convenient injury too eh?

Maybe you need to look up what cherry picking means eh?

Choosing her worse result in a race though still a winner wont address a her top marks?

^^As you can see I have failed to correctly construct a 16 word sentance

But

No one knew Black Caviar's battle to reach the start at the royal meeting better than Haydon.
Behind the secure gates of Abington Place, he tended to Nelly morning and afternoon with everything from the most sophisticated laser equipment through to a custom-made protective boot and buckets of ice-cold water.
He treated an aching suspensory ligament, a previously torn quadriceps muscle that was revealed as not fully healed, and a near front foot from which she repeatedly ripped the shoe.
Peter Moody had diagnosed her as "dead-set rooted". Haydon, regarded as the mechanic in the operation, was determined to present her as capable of racing.


"Any other horse you'd probably scratch," Haydon said.
"But she's different. I knew if we got her there, even if she's only 50 per cent, she'll do the rest."
When it was done, it was Haydon's honour to drape the victory rug over Black Caviar's visibly heaving body.
"I've never seen her that buggered after a run."
A racing lifer, he thought the image that would stay most vivid in his mind was when turf royalty met the reigning monarch.
"Just seeing the Queen touch her, and just how gentle Nelly was. Any other person touches Nelly on the nose and she'd head-butt them. It must've been the white glove," he laughs.


read the full story of horror ( bee attck )

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/i-thought-she-wasnt-going-to-make-it-i-thought-i-was-going-to-be-coming-home-without-her/story-e6frf7kx-1226579189950

so mugboy66, how many times did Frankel venture the world and win?

Oh and you've totally missed the point (no surprise there then) about the difference between Society Rock being left 12L at the start when sat down in the stalls as the gates opened and having to be ridden all the way just to try to make a race of it, compared to Ortensia being run off her feet in the early stages and struggling to beat handicappers that were coming back to her at the finish and it's not "according to me" that Society Rock finished only 2L behind Black Caviar despite giving her 6L start, it's there in the record books or online records as a fact.....Oh and remind me again what happened to Ortensia when she finished 12th of 13 and 9½L behind Society Rock? Oh yeah, she had a convenient injury too eh?

That says more about the quality of your sprinters then it does about her, the race was a group 2 event afterall

Nice to see mugsy and secondcoming locked up on the same thread , best to keep the riff raff together

regarding Ortensia's defeat, you do realize she'd been travelling since March, given the race you're talking about was in September, it's not too far of a conclusion to say that she was coming to end of an extended international campaign, know of any English horses who ventured the world for that period of time? especially in a time of the year which would be considered the "off season"

hello :-) • February 16, 2013 1:02 AM GMT
Nice to see mugsy and secondcoming locked up on the same thread , best to keep the riff raff together

nice to see the vermin still crawling around, this place wouldn't be the same without the like of yourself, we all need a resident merkin or two to keep the mug stocks in the high order, keep selling your garbage from your rubbish tip of a home to keep yourself financed, pal

you're not even in the same league as me, I could verbally destroy you and there isn't a single thing you could say or do about it

I doubt your rarely sober enough to destroy anything secondcoming

A day after she struggled to win the Golden Jubilee, we thought it was all over.

She was rooted, out on her feet.

Her head was down in her box, her suspensory (ligament) had flared up and she'd damaged the muscles in her
hindquarters.

I really thought we'd retire her and I felt comfortable with that.

The queen now world's best racehorse
WITH English superhorse Frankel enjoying his new career as a stallion, Black Caviar has assumed the title of the world's best racehorse.

Looking back at Royal Ascot, I reckon things started to spiral downwards a bit after she won last year's Lightning Stakes.

I reckon I made two mistakes.

The first is I should have run once in Adelaide instead of twice and the second is I should have run in the King's Stand at Royal Ascot, over 1000 metres, instead of the 1200m of the Jubilee.

That said, had she been the real Black Caviar she'd have won the Jubilee by six lengths.

Over there, at Newmarket, I reckon it unravelled on the Tuesday before the race.

She was out to have a light workout but she ended up running blinding time.

Luke (Nolen) blamed himself but I blamed the mare.

The work was all upside down.

We all looked at her on race morning and knew she wasn't right but we just hoped she'd be too good.

Looking back, she did look very plain in the mounting yard but I kept my feelings to myself, didn't even let on the owners.

I didn't want to be making excuses, especially before the race was even run.

I watched on ground level and I knew she was off 300 metres after the start.

You could just tell. 

Watch the best of Black Caviar

It was a bit of a sick feeling, I have to say, but she got the job done.

As I said, we thought she'd be retired after that.

But her physical improvement in just six weeks after the race was quite remarkable.

I saw her at Werribee quarantine six weeks after Royal Ascot and I thought hold the phone, this might be back on.

I'm not going to say she will be better than before but I can confidently say she's in the best physical shape for
maybe three years.

Her feet have been given time to grow instead of being peppered with nail holes.

Beyond today, nothing is ruled out and nothing is ruled in.

No part of me thinks I'd like to go back to Royal Ascot and show them what she can really do, because I think Australian racegoers are equally entitled to see her again, more so.

But as for Royal Ascot, it's a case of never say never.

If the owners were mad keen, and maybe it tied in with mating with, say a Frankel, then who knows, it might not be ruled out.

But that's not my focus.

To me, she is something racing, even sport, needs right now.

There have been so many bad stories lately that I feel she represents the good story.

Her timing seems good in that sense.

In fact her timing has always been pretty good.

Whenever there's been a bad story about her, she's managed to come along and put a better spin on things.

She's not heavily raced, or heavily taxed.

She's a six-year-old mare who's had 22 starts.

Look in any formguide and you'll see six-year-old mares who have had 60 starts.

In probably 15 of her wins she's won head on chest, won soft.

Call it a horseman's instincts, but I looked at her the other day and I saw a smile on her face and a glint in her eye that I hadn't seen for a long time.

So it's on again.

In a way I guess we are taking a big risk but at the end of the day she's a racehorse and she's here to race.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/peter-moody-says-black-caviar-is-back-to-her-best-after-ascot-scare/story-fn67siys-1226578955180

It might be her worst result bf_fananatic but seeing as it's the only time she ventured outside of her own country then to be claimed the best sprinter in the world it's the only result where she's faced rivals from a wider sphere and fell over the line when struggling to beat a miler that you can judge by.

When you're the best in the world Sloppy Seconds they come to you, a bit like when you are champion of the world in boxing, you call the shots and the challengers have to take you on......So you Aussies just think yourselves lucky that Frankel didn't annihilate Black Caviar at 6f in the Jubilee because if he can run a faster furlong on Good to Soft in a mile race after already having run 5f than she did in a 6f race on Good when she had only run 4f then he would have picked her up and carried her in the race itself if they met and ruined her unbeaten record.

Almost to a person on here most Britons have said we don't tend to have that many decent sprinters due to the way things are on the breeding front so our Group level sprinters are either promoted handicappers or the classic generation runners that didn't get the mile. So yeah it does say something about our Gr2 sprinters if they can still run one of your Gr1 horses like Ortensia off her feet. Have a look at the form of a horse like Spirit Quartz that Ortensia struggled to beat and you will see he had almost a 50% winning strike rate in Italy but has yet to get his head in front since coming to the UK in his next 10 starts. We aren't hailing him as any great shakes but Ortensia still only managed to beat him by 1¼L and then a neck the other time and even a promoted handicapper like the 7YO Hamish McGonagall was only 1½L behind her the last time they met when giving her 3lbs.......and yeah, I've cherry picked that one just to show how easy it can be done.

As for your excuses or reasons for Ortensia, then aren't they the very same things I was being mocked about regarding the disadvantages the UK sprinters would have if running in Aussie sprints outside of our season either before it had started or at the end of a season long campaign? I think you also might be stretching it a bit regarding Ortensia though and her "extended international campaign" when apart from one run at Meydan on March 31st 2012 that was probably used as a stop off on the way to Ascot, her previous run was on 19th November 2011, she then didn't run again until Ascot on 19th June and her next runs were all here where she stayed based and averaged a run every 3 weeks to make 5 in 12 weeks including Ascot, so hardly a busy schedule for a sprinter and certainly not globe-trotting either.

Oh and just to explain to you what cherry picking is all about in these instances, it's when you make an original statement where instead of going by everything, you filter out what you don't like and pretend it didn't happen and just focus on the parts you do like. If I then highlight the non-cherry picked parts that's called looking at the bigger picture and putting over a counter response in reply. If I had made the original statement and only used the bits that I liked then I would be guilty of cherry picking and if you, megsy or Dame Edna put over the counter argument then all you would be doing would be redressing the balance, which is all I've ever done anyway.

ima_mazed66 Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
Add contact | Send message When: 16 Feb 13 07:20 Joined: Date Joined: 12 Oct 09 | Topic/replies: 4,261 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog


When you're the best in the world Sloppy Seconds they come to you, a bit like when you are champion of the world in boxing, you call the shots and the challengers have to take you on......So you Aussies just think yourselves lucky that Frankel didn't annihilate Black Caviar at 6f in the Jubilee because if he can run a faster furlong on Good to Soft in a mile race after already having run 5f than she did in a 6f race on Good when she had only run 4f then he would have picked her up and carried her in the race itself if they met and ruined her unbeaten record.

showing your lack of knowelege and your childish true colours

When you're the best in the world Sloppy Seconds they come to you

you then back that statement up with this:

Almost to a person on here most Britons have said we don't tend to have that many decent sprinters

you idiot

I would also like to mention Ortensia is no superstar here either

LOL.....I should have known it would be beyond the pair of you even in a collaboration.

Apart from the fact Frankel is an individual horse and our sprinters are a collective, if any of our sprinters were being championed as the best horse in the world then others from around the world would then be coming here to take that one on to claim its scalp, just as multiple horses from Australia (ex), Ireland, France, Germany and Japan have come to the UK to take on Frankel, resulting in him beating 65 different opponents from across the globe of which 62 were winners of races, where 52 were Gr1s winners either prior to or after being neaten by Frankel.....and then you have Laurel and Hardy here claiming Frankel only beat the same 3 or 4 poor quality horses and only the locals.

And that's not even taking into account that even if Frankel wasn't the best in the world, foreign horses from America, Australia, Bahrain, Germany, France, Ireland, Hong Kong, Japan, South Africa, Spain the UAE and probably others I can't recall have come over to run at Royal Ascot for prestige reasons too.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel......blindfold....wearing boxing gloves and still easily hitting the target!

this isn't it about your retired horse, this is about the current world champion, Black Caviar, please continue

ima_mazed66 Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
Add contact | Send message When: 16 Feb 13 07:20 Joined: Date Joined: 12 Oct 09 | Topic/replies: 4,261 | Blogger: ima_mazed66's blog


Almost to a person on here most Britons have said we don't tend to have that many decent sprinters

ima_mazed66
When: 01 Jun 12 03:10


You show me one post where I ever restricted UK horses to the premier Aussie sprints only, those are your restrictions and terms not mine. This whole thing started by Aussies saying no UK horses go over for Aussie sprints and whilst I still think ours on the whole are better than yours at 6f (I'm sure I've said this before too


oldtimers ima??

so black caviar wins 16 times at 6f and the one time at 7f before royal ascot, whilst moonlight cloud won 3 times at 6-6 1/2f and 3 times at 7f

tell me sunshine, how does that make moonlight cloud a miler?
give credit where due, even midnight cloud was unlucky beaten against excelebration, now that wouldnt have made frankels form very good would it if it happen.

bloody cherry pickers

agrees with secondcoming, yesterdays hero's are yesterdays fish n chip wrappers.

whilst the grand lady is still racing she is currently the best in the world

SecondComing
this isn't it about your retired horse, this is about the current world champion, Black Caviar, please continue

Best tell that to megsy then as his is the first post in the thread to mention Frankel......and while you are at it, tell yourself as you mention him too in your own post.

Is there a point to any of your posts above megsy, especially the first one half quoting me from June?

As far as Moonlight Cloud goes, we are back to your difficulties in retaining information as I've already answered this anyway but she ran in our 1000gns which is a mile and that was only her 5th race or so and 2nd start as a 3YO. She's tried sprint distances like 6f and has failed to win at them. She's also tried 7f and won a few here and there and been beaten in a few more but her last 3 runs have been Gr1 or Grade 1 mile races and so seemingly her connections have finally settled on her being a miler and I even gave you the clue seeing as she ran in the Breeders' Cup Mile and so if she's running in 3 Group/Grade1 mile races back to back in her most recent runs then I think it's fairly reasonable to consider her a miler.

If she had managed to be Excelebration then unless she was beating him anything between 4-11L then I think Frankel's legacy and reputation are safe for the time being. I've also told you enough times that you don't have to be winning races and just running in them to be considered that that is your trip. Farhh has only run 3 times at 10f and hasn't won any of them but they were his best 3 runs of his career, so despite having won a handicap at a mile he was well and truly put in his place at a mile by Frankel, yet Farhh's best 3 runs have been an unlucky 3rd behind SYT in the PoW at RA, 2nd in the Eclipse to Nathaniel and 2nd in the Juddmonte to Frankel all at 10f and so I would consider him a 10f horse.

Please do your best to retain the information I am telling you as it will make my posts a lot shorter and save me loads of typing if I didn't have to continually repeat over and over again what I've already told you numerous times before.

Oh and even now Frankel would still beat Black Caviar if they raced tomorrow.

When you're the best in the world Sloppy Seconds they come to you, a bit like when you are champion of the world in boxing, you call the shots and the challengers have to take you on......So you Aussies just think yourselves lucky that Frankel didn't annihilate Black Caviar at 6f in the Jubilee because if he can run a faster furlong on Good to Soft in a mile race after already having run 5f than she did in a 6f race on Good when she had only run 4f then he would have picked her up and carried her in the race itself if they met and ruined her unbeaten record.

2 things.  You are kidding yourself with all this "Good to Soft" rubbish in regards to Frankel.  The rating of the track is based on the penetrometer reading.  That is why they do it.  This read 8.3, 6 hours before Frankel raced.  8 is the average rating for tracks rated good.  The weather on the day was fine.  The track would have been closer to 8.6-8.7 by the time Frankel raced, on virgin ground, with only his pacemaker having run on it before him.  Even if the track didn't improve that much in the 6 hours, that reading was still enough to at bare minimum rate it as a "Good" track.
You may also note (although obviously you won't since it seems to be something you rely on), that immediately after Frankels race, the track was upgraded to "Good".  So you are suggesting that in the space of 2 minutes the track improved from a "Good to Soft" to a "Good"?
Please.  Black Caviar raced after 4 days of racing.  Frankel was first to see the ground.  Wonder who got the best of it.

Secondly, name a horse that took on Frankel?  Which of the worlds best milers did as you said and went to take him on to prove he wasn't the best?
NONE.  Because he was racing in pissweak races worth nothing.  That race you are talking about, he chose to race in, over the 10f race, even though that was his target race, worth 50% more prize money.  The best horse in history, why did he choose to race in the 8f race worth 200k, over the 10f race worth 300k?  Because they should have dropped back to 8f and less money to take him on?
Your whole argument that the best can stay at home and challengers need to take them on is rubbish. 
Did Frankel take on Wise Dan?  Cannot be argued that Frankel won that race in any circle.  Maybe Wise Dan was the best, and Frankel didn't go to take him on to prove it?  Ridiculous.
Frankel raced within a 200km radius.  That is it.  Beat nothing.
Black Caviar was doing back to back 30 hour float trips just for the hell of it, as her preparation for the 30 hour trip to England, to race in a nothing race because the owners wanted to go.

You want to base Black Caviar on one run, then go for your life.  Pretty easy to bring on Zoffanys form though.  Beaten 10.5 lengths to Moonlight Cloud, even though he ran within 3/4l of the mighty Frankel?  So on that Moonlight Cloud is a 9 length better horse than Frankel?  Zoffany beaten 10l Court Vision, 13L Gio Ponti, 10.5L Moonlight Cloud, but only 3/4 of a length to Frankel?
Cherry picking doesn't work. 
Australian, Irish, French, American, Italian, it really doesn't matter.  You are talking about Frankel like he travelled the world with domination and beat the best they had to offer when in reality he travelled nowhere, and beat horses from down the road.  Sure he may have beaten horses with a different nationality, but when that nation is 100 kms away, how relevant is it really?
The reality is, Australia is not that far off the size of Europe.  47 countries near fit in our land mass.  We go for a trip interstate, and if you were to travel the same distance would have gone through 20 countries.  Ridiculous to suggest anything about all the international horses.  Just like it is ridiculous to suggest that BC should leave her hemispere, to race in the middle of Winter when she should be spelling, to prove something to ignorant hacks that still can't see outside their own country even though their neighbours live in a different country.
Why the hell should BC leave our shores?  Breeders Cup is on at the same time as our Spring Carnival.  Not a hell of a lot of difference in prizemoney when you consider the costs involved in such a trip.

Thinking is not a bad thing.  Ok?

As far as Moonlight Cloud goes, we are back to your difficulties in retaining information as I've already answered this anyway but she ran in our 1000gns which is a mile and that was only her 5th race or so and 2nd start as a 3YO. She's tried sprint distances like 6f and has failed to win at them. She's also tried 7f and won a few here and there and been beaten in a few more but her last 3 runs have been Gr1 or Grade 1 mile races and so seemingly her connections have finally settled on her being a miler and I even gave you the clue seeing as she ran in the Breeders' Cup Mile and so if she's running in 3 Group/Grade1 mile races back to back in her most recent runs then I think it's fairly reasonable to consider her a miler.
Not surprised.  Worth any horse in Europe trying the mile.  It has been proven to be very easy to win as there is very little competition.  Easiest way to lift your rating, and horse value.  Just look at Excelebration.  Forced into retirement to claim stud fees, because the reality is if he kept running, he would prove it all to be a farce and would lose all value.

ROFL.

thinking of going to stud myself

Can you match Frankel SC?

He is on 3 a day.

takes some beating imo

poor excelebration went to the USA and got beat convincingly, yes he went overseas to prove himself and came home an also ran.
the cotton wool kid needs to come out of retirement to travel overseas to prove himself, otherwise he is just a local champion simple and if you look at english stock of milers, theres not much around.

£125,000 x 3 times per day megsy?

BC wouldnt get near him,track or shed and a foal of hers would be lucky to earn a days pay for Frankel at auction.

GT...a lot of money for a dud root

BC's mum is probably the best broodmare in the world having 2 rated worlds best sprinter and her $50 million brother the highest rated 3 yr old miler in the world and her other sibling sold as a yearling for millions

BC is barren megsy,that is why she is back racing.

So is secondcoming GT , they thought she was in foal to mugsy , alas was a false alarm

SC is a gelding btw.

sorry boys not talking sh1te anymore

why change the habit of a lifetime

because I need to be more respectful

Fair play SC.............Noble Locks.

Fair enough

Well first of all BJT, it's not me saying the going was Good to Soft, that was the official going given but I'm not particularly fussed either way however it was, my main bone of contention was the laughable claims that Black Caviar ran on what some Aussies on here would have you believe was a swamp.

On day one of Royal Ascot 2012, these are the readings and descriptions:

Straight Course: Good, Round Course: Good to Soft (Good in places)
Going Stick Standside 8.1, Centre 8.3, Farside 8.1, Round 7.4

So since the QA is run on the straight course, Frankel ran up the middle of the track but for edging over to the far rail from 2f out so crosses the line on the same bit of ground that those that ran on the round course would have been crossing the line on. So between the jockey being so far ahead that he allowed him to drift and running the final furlong on the softer ground probably explains his slow final furlong time.

The readings on day 5 for the Jubilee and Black Caviar were:

Straight: Good, Round: Good to Soft (Good in places)
Going Stick Standside: 8.3, Centre: 8.7, Farside: 8.6, Round: 7.3

Black Caviar came up the stands side and crossed the line a few horses widths off the standside rail.

I'm more than happy to say the ground wasn't a factor for either horse and am only responding to the ridiculous claims that it wasn't for Frankel but was for Black Caviar, which you even seem to be supporting yourself too by saying it had been raced on 4 days by the time she raced on it and asking which horse got the worst of it. Well apart from the fact that where she raced doesn't cover every race anyway, if the ground was soft or heavy all week and had been churned up by the time she raced on it then you might have a point but seeing as you are saying it was changed to Good and was therefore Good by the time she raced on it, then you obviously don't have a point. Add to that how many previously races were run on her strip of ground or even how many on her racing day were too?

Take your pick from the horses Frankel beat but if he scares off the opposition after they have already seen him beat the best behind him then that's hardly his fault now is it? What was the quality of opposition in Black Caviar's race the other day, beat 7 world beaters did she?

http://frankel.juddmonte.com/race-career/horses-beaten.aspx

He regularly beat Excelebration, the highest rated miler after him which would have a phenomenal race record himself but for Frankel.

Rather than ask did Frankel take on Wise Dan, the question should be did Wise Dan take on Frankel as if Frankel is the best then the challengers have to come to him if they want to topple him, otherwise he will just carry on being the best in the world anyway? How many times has Wise Dan run outside of N America by the way? Does that make him a Cotton Wool Kid too? Funny how you double standards Aussies like to have it all ways isn't it? Here you are trying to bump up Wise Dan whilst doing down Frankel. My argument that you can stay at home if you are the best isn't rubbish if you are the best, that's why horses have been coming to Royal Ascot and our other big meetings for years from all over the world and the fact they came from far and wide to take on Frankel and were beaten goes to prove this.

Black Caviar beating other Aussies and maybe an odd NZ horse at home counts for nothing to gauge things on a global scale unless horses from all over the world were going to Australia to take on Black Caviar, so if the only race I have to measure her on globally was the one where she fell over the line then what else can I base her on? All you can say pre-Ascot is that winning as many races and being unbeaten must mean she's very good but the acid test was Ascot and she just about won but far from convincingly and in a soft race too against non-sprinters dropping back, promoted handicappers and a genuine Gr1 rival that had to give her 6L start and closed it to 2L at the line when the starter let them go with the horse sat down in the stalls and the jockey shouting no. That same horse Society Rock, with little to no form on soft ground still ran well at Ascot, proving the ground was fine for him and Black Caviar too and then later won a Gr1 himself beating Ortensia by 9½L....oh and all things considered Frankel ran a great race to beat Zoffany and was still a comfortable winning margin anyway.

It's totally irrelevant whether you travel or not to beat the best, just as long as you beat the best and that's what Frankel did and if you then want to use horses like Wise Dan, use others like Excelebration and Cityscape as a benchmark to link the form and both of those horses hated the firm ground in America but Wise Dan was nowhere near as convincing when beating either of those horses as Frankel has been when beating Excelebration and that one convincingly beat Cityscape.....oh and since when has Germany or Japan been 100km from the UK? As for the French and Irish horses that might be under 100km (and even that's debatable) a few of them seem to do OK when they go over to Australia so there must be fairly decent horses trained there but once again, yo can hardly blame Frankel for geographical reasons.

What hacks are saying is nothing to do with me, I only answer for myself.

megsy
poor excelebration went to the USA and got beat convincingly, yes he went overseas to prove himself and came home an also ran.
the cotton wool kid needs to come out of retirement to travel overseas to prove himself, otherwise he is just a local champion simple and if you look at english stock of milers, theres not much around.

Just as he was convincingly beaten here by Frankel numerous times and a lot farther too but nice to see the Aussie double standards are still in full flow. The other problem with your "English stock milers" line assuming you mean where they are trained is that Excelebration, Grand Prix Boss, Helmet, Immortal Verse, Indomito, Pathfork, Rajsaman, Roderic O'Connor and Zoffany aren't/weren't English trained and you have horses there that are or were Australian, French, German, Irish and Japanese trained but I've told you this many times before but damn that information retention problems eh?

You get from the double standard Aussies "Oh but the ground didn't suit Black Caviar/Ortensia, she was racing after a long spell, had to travel overseas blah blah blah..." but that conveniently gets overlooked when it's an Irish/UK based horse like Excelebration where even ignoring the fact he was given a bad ride in America by a teenage and inexperienced jockey riding their tracks and gave the horse too much to do, has also travelled halfway across the word, was also running on a track and ground not to his liking and did so in November on his 6th start of the season having been on the go since April and only having had one run in his own country, so every other race involved travelling overseas, but before any of you Skippys jump in, no most of the times it wasn't that far but it still meant going through the motions of all that travelling horses involves......Oh and remind me again how Moonlight Cloud got on in that race, so presumably Excelebration would beat Black Caviar at 6f or 7f then eh? Just look at which horse is his sire after all!

Plus what's the difference here between a UK horse having its last run in November of one season/year and then its first run of the next season/year in March with a 3-4 month break and maybe even shorter break if having an overseas run or home AW run at either end of that break, compared to an Aussie horse having its previous run 3-4 months apart which might encompass it's final run within an Aussie season/year or a ticking over run before then having its next run that 3-4 months later in the UK? It's still a 3-4 month break between races anyway isn't it, which is what many horses get between final runs of one season and debut runs in the next. So that excuse about Aussie horses running here outside of their own season doesn't really cut it.

Oh and to further add the double standards from Down Under, some of us were saying pre-Ascot that despite her achievements at home, Black Caviar still has to prove she can come here and win and take in all of the travelling that involves, only to be met with the charge we were taking sh1t and she has nothing to prove and look at how other Aussies horses came over an won (conveniently ignoring the many more times they were well and truly spanked) by now it's all over, the very same people are trotting out the line that she has had to overcome such adversity regarding travelling, how Frankel hasn't done it and so on once she barely fell over the line with her head in front by such a narrow margin.

I think some of you want to make your minds up exactly what it is you are arguing from one day to the next, unless of course you have had to revise your views retrospectively based on what you know now but didn't know then.

did you get writers cramp with all that cherry picking crap???, fcuk me dead, 10,000 words ???

you talk about being spanked, tell me mr know it all how many past lightning stakes winners ( australia's premier WFA sprint ) set for either the kings stand or the jubilee as their main race and have been spanked in these races? one even broke your track record ffs.
mind you these are the better horses to visit your shores out of season, not your typical slightly better than average sprinters whom the owners wanted to meet the queen.

the answer is NONE !!!!!

so get off ya high horse and know what your talking about before you type shyt

and while your searching wikipedia mr wikipedia, all the trainers of these horses are on record stating black caviar would pick up their horses and tow them over the line as she went past them.

so dont try and tell us your the expert

ima_mazed66 Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
Add contact | Send message When: 17 Feb 13 07:38

Rather than ask did Frankel take on Wise Dan, the question should be did Wise Dan take on Frankel as if Frankel is the best then the challengers have to come to him if they want to topple him

then you said

Oh and to further add the double standards from Down Under, some of us were saying pre-Ascot that despite her achievements at home, Black Caviar still has to prove she can come here and win


fcuking hypocrite

lmao?
So Frankel has put Bullet Train in as a horse he beat because he won a group race?

Let us have a look at Bullet Train after he won that race.
LAST 38L
6/8 9.75L
5/7 4.25L
LAST 7.25L
LAST 23 L

So in 5 races, he was beaten a combined 80+ lengths, and beat 4 horses home.  Huge achievement.

Cirrus De Aigles.  Beaten by

And this, is why you don't type long responses on this forum.  FFS

Point was, the form of the horses when Frankel beat them was rubbish, so the link means jack ****.  Black Caviar has beaten G1 winners (at least 1) in every win for her last 16 starts.  But that is just a stat thick ****s like imstuckinamaze would use to prove a point.
Stop watch doesn't lie.

Qipco Sussex Stakes.
Frankel wins.  Beats.
Farhh: 3 wins including, a 4k maiden, an 8k C3, and a 13k C2
Gabrial: Also 3 wins.  7k maiden, 9k C22yo, 3yoC3 for 37k.
Bullet Train: 2 wins.  3k maiden, 3yoG3.  Since then has had 11 starts and beaten 15 horses home, and the only reason he was in the field was to make sure the other 2 horses, not a group win between them, didn't get an easy time of it.

And you want to call BC out for racing nothing?  Double standards much?

BJT...theres more maidens he beat if you look closely, most he beat as a 3 yr old still sit on one win

ima_mazed66 Date Joined: 12 Oct 09
Add contact | Send message When: 17 Feb 13 07:38

It's totally irrelevant whether you travel or not to beat the best, just as long as you beat the best and that's what Frankel did and if you then want to use horses like Wise Dan, use others like Excelebration and Cityscape as a benchmark to link the form and both of those horses hated the firm ground in America

excelebrations sire won only on hard tracks, 90% of all stakes winners by exceed and excel won on the same surface. so dont tell me excelebration was not suited by a good track

Apparantly, based on 1 run, Black Caviar was a failure.  But Excelebration on 1 run racing away from home failing, was obviously a flop due to the ground. 
Hmmmmm

So you want us to do the form of Excelebration and Cityscape to boost Frankel, but we are not allowed to use the same form to show Frankel up?  We can all use the form and it shows Excelebration was only good in Europe and not a patch on the Americans even though he got the gun run.

On your logic, if Black Caviar is overrated because when she travelled she only just won, then using the same logic Excelebration not even running a place when doing the same shows much much more how overrated he is and was.  BC at her worst, still wins.  Excelebration can't run a place.

All Too Hard keeps family flag flying


Saturday, 9 February 2013:

All Too Hard confirmed at Caulfield on Saturday there may only be one horse in Australia better than him - and that's his sister.

Which means there are very few in the world who rate more highly.

In his first start since finishing second in the Cox Plate last October, All Too Hard defied the pattern of racing and some handy opposition to win the Group One C F Orr Stakes (1400m) and take the first step on a path that could end up in Europe's best races.

"There's probably not much he couldn't do," said co-trainer Wayne Hawkes.

"He's as good as there is going around."

By taking out the Orr, All Too Hard also completed a rare double by winning a race his half-sister Black Caviar won last year.

But unlike the world champion mare who captured the Orr Stakes with brilliant speed, All Too Hard ($2.30 fav) came from near-last, rounding up the leaders 100m from the line and then holding off Mawingo ($16) to win by a half length.

West Australian stayer Mr Moet ($13) took third a further head away.

While All Too Hard established himself as one of the country's best last spring, his subsequent sale by beleaguered former owner Nathan Tinkler to Vinery Stud added considerable tension to his return to racing.

"He's worth a lot of money," Hawkes said.

"We knew how good he was, but when they're as valuable as he is, it's a relief when they prove it."

Vinery manager Peter Orton, who stitched together the acquisition of All Too Hard, reflected the trainer's emotions.

"It's a huge relief," Orton said.

"If he's as good as we hoped he should be beating those horses, but the way the race panned out he had a lot against him."

New Zealander King Mufhasa set a moderate pace in front on a day when leaders appeared to be favoured.

But Dwayne Dunn put All Too Hard into the race 400m out in what proved to be the winning move.

"The only thing I told him was to ride him like he was the best horse in the race," Hawkes said.

"And he did."

All Too Hard is likely to have his next start in the Group One Australian Guineas at Flemington on March 2 with the Randwick Guineas or Doncaster Mile in Sydney his other autumn targets.

After that the colt embarks on an international campaign that will take in Royal Ascot and other European races before he goes to stud at Vinery next spring.

"He's worth a lot of money" What class you guys have.

Two bit trainers with horses that exude more panache out of their backsides.nap

now i know your exuding out your backside

Feb 18, 2013 -- 3:44AM, GT-MOLE wrote:

"He's worth a lot of money" What class you guys have.Two bit trainers with horses that exude more panache out of their backsides.nap

Gee what a judgmental old chap you are mole.

At the end of the day, the class system is a rort, and you buying into it says a lot more about you than it does us, who I assume you think were being quoted in the article?

There are names in the article if you would like to make your judgmental comments on what it is written about.  To help you out a little, you can start by looking for the capital letters, then weed out the start of sentences and horse names and you are on your way.

No thanks necessary.

a FAT all too hard beat a high class field in todays Grp 1 All Age Stakes and will now head to england for one race before retirement to stud

"In the UK she was swishing her tail and getting cranky because she had come to the end of her campaign after 12 months of racing. But now she's back."

Sounds like she was going cold turkey

Black Caviar was nowhere near her best at Royal Ascot in England in June, having lost considerable condition after a long campaign.
She returned home, put on weight, worked on the water-walker and is now nearing peak condition after six weeks of trackwork, a jumpout and an exhibition gallop.

And having a backside full of needles

I woudl think now the BHA has set a precident all horses from drug cheating Countries should be banned form racing until serving a period of 6 months in the UK nto racing to make sure they are on a level playing field.

>I woudl think now the BHA has set a precident all horses from drug cheating Countries should be banned form racing until serving a period of 6 months in the UK nto racing to make sure they are on a level playing field.

1. They are not cheats if the rules of racing allow it in that country.
2. I would have thought, given current revelations, serving 6 months quarantine period in the UK doesn't guarantee a level playing field.