premium charges

you dont have to arb book, if all your arbs lose then you will get hit in the gooleys with the PC

book, with respect if you cant find ways to improve your profits through your undoubted sporting knowledge

then I feel sorry for you, you seem a sound chap, best of luck.

thats my point big boss

theres a guy in leeds. has no marked cards. pays 60%.  just plays horses. he is using money from investors. they have to be paid.  minimum 2% a week. all investors are very happy. purple not much good to him. cant get it all on there

freddie dont make me laugh I have a cracked lip.

a secondary system would need to produce in commission a fifth of your weekly profit

a secondary system would statistically long term generate a small loss over its lifetime

the small loss would be over a year a lot lesd than you would pay PC in comparison

do i need to go on ?

a secondary system would need to produce in commission a fifth of your weekly profit

a secondary system would statistically long term generate a small loss over its lifetime

the small loss would be over a year a lot lesd than you would pay PC in comparison

do i need to go on ?

Its everything the company initially said they stood against

Betfair where winners are welcome

How those words have come back to haunt them

And for good measure its killing liquidity which is essential for any exchange

a mate has seen his bank statments we eck. he has around 50k with him.  has a contract too. payments reegular as clock work. hes bbeen with him a few months now.

freddie have a little mercy for my cracked lip

Not necessarily a fifth, but the rate you pay in PC, if you had a secondary system that profited by the same as the % you pay in PC....why wouldnt you be doing it regardless of tax?

dusty, you dont have to make a profit with the secondary, its all about clocking the commission up, if 30% of fav's win for example, then that would qualify for the system

but surely you would have had have absolutely massive turnover....in doing so taking crazy risks something along the way might go wrong (which invariably with betting it will at some point)

there is always risk dusty, it isn't a pot of gold, you need a bit of skill

funk that mate, good luck

what i never got my head round is why dont 60% pc payers who keep good records put their estimated PC payment for the next week as a massive win bet as their last bet of the week ?

i suppose they would pay 60% of the winnings of that bet and only reduce the PC by 60% if it got beat lol

it is true the higher the rate the more likely it would be worthy of doing that imo (since you are getting much better odds on that final bet)
but to get to that rate it is likely you are (indeed ahem cough, shall we say naughty) or genuine but very efficient(which in the long run is the best way as even losing on that big bet only returns a % relief of the rate you pay)....sort of plays aginst everything if you then throw it all down on a win/lose bet.

Average traded per race per year. But this is from data which I had used for some other purpose, so not even sure what I changed or removed from the raw data. Not at all reliable.

year    volume
2008    856091
2009    909270
2010    850022
2011    877421
2012    906391

Must be nice to find out how much the liquidity has increased/decreased over the years. I am sure someone in here would have all the data to find this out

That confirms what I thought that the average matched per race is much the same as it was when I started 6 years ago,comfortably before PC. The only caveat is that doesn't show how much is " trading money ". I wonder if there are more pure tradears around in which case BF`s take in commission IS going down.

For every person that is reducing bets due to the pc there are probably five people increasing their churn to make sure they dont pay the pc.

Most of the new churn money goes into the bigger markets where there is less slippage.

The main issue with the PC is that it kills the dream of being a winner for those unwilling to churn.

wee eck 30 Jan 13 13:29 
dustybin. until book put me right I would have bet plenty that all

40-60% premium charge payers had a decided advantage nearly akin

to cheating.  I reiterate my earlier statement that anyone playing

on here strictly on merit paying 40-60% premium charges is imo certifiable.
__________
i am on 40% like most others on it 90% inrunning

with no fast pics been to exchange shops around a dozen times in 10 years

what would you suggest this certifiable does
do i pack it in ?

If you have lifetime profits of £250k - do you automatically pay higher rate Premium Charge irrespective of the amount of commission/implied commission  paid over the lifetime of your account?

henke, to bet in running from home using RUK and ATR and to be a 40%

premium charge payer you truly are a supreme judge, I bow at your feet.

imfao, no, only pay when you reach the criteria.

lmfao 30 Jan 13 16:26 
If you have lifetime profits of £250k - do you automatically pay higher rate Premium Charge irrespective of the amount of commission/implied commission  paid over the lifetime of your account?


no it is based on what % commision you have paid in the lifetime

That confirms what I thought that the average matched per race is much the same as it was when I started 6 years ago,comfortably before PC. The only caveat is that doesn't show how much is " trading money ". I wonder if there are more pure tradears around in which case BF`s take in commission IS going down.

I think the ratio of trading money to punting money is a lot greater thesedays, the reason for such volatile markets and accentuated price swings possibly

thnks henke- i read the condition and didnt think that was clear:

so

Are betfair uplifting the £250k higher rate level every year- to reflect a longer betting timespan?

when was it introduced?

it's based on commission paid , which ( i think ) has to be below 20% of profits and have had bets in over about 250 markets to qualify .

so
£1000 profit , £250 commission paid = no premium charge
£1000 profit , £100 commission paid = £100 premium charge to get commission upto 20% which would be £200

once you are over £250,000 in profit your % on pc goes up .

i think

should the £250k limit not go up each year by 12% so to keep the maths right

rcing its not based on commission paid.  its based on commission generated, which can be as much as half your commission paid. In my case, my commission paid is about 7%, but my commission generated is only 3.6%.  so instead of paying 40% PC based on commission paid, i have to pay 60% based on my commission generated.  Confusing and unfair.  Like many others I don't have any advantages like fast pics, its purely down to greening up. I mostly use purple now, but paying 60% here when I only clear about 50 a week is a bit bizarre.

sorry hazel , i forgot about generated commission

hazel,how are you finding it on purple & how long have you been over there ? cos can't put up with this 50% mugging every week.

Anybody paying 60% PC needs the bumps on their heads examining,imo.

Book.  I have been there since 60% started.  Little at first but now my main avenue for horse racing.  In running not good, nor is it great hours before a race.   But in last 5 or 10 minutes before the off it is fine for me.  Prices match betfair prices.  Bots probably keep them together. I am not a big player.   I bet in up to £100 size.  Plenty of liquidity for that.   


My strategy is to usually green out.  bit scarry if not completed before the off.,  but i can usually trade out small amounts inrunning.  but not advised.  Sometimes I have to let bets ride which is not to my liking as i am very risk adverse.  perhaps i should cut loses before the off more than i do. 

if you are a straight bettor, then I can't see any problem in giving it a go.

Tried football, but I find it too slow.

it sounds like your similar to me in your workings,my best earners are rugby,boxing & motor racing & the purple wont be any good for that imo,might do the afternoon horses though,got to give it a chance,cos this pc is getting to be unworkable,good luck.

Anybody paying 60% PC needs the bumps on their heads examining,imo

What do you mean?
I thought you had to

Milo,
Many people are avoiding paying the PC.
It would hardly be prudent for me to tell you how it is done,would it.

Oh, Ok, I get it now.
Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more

middleman

"The whole concept of an exchange is the fact YOU ARE ALLOWED TO WIN whereas bookies dont allow you to win long term but Betfair have gone down the same route thus killing the dream...."

Absolutely right, totally agree with that, I know this PC only affects a small number but everyone likes to dream. It was a disaster and an own goal from betfair to screw the big players so they can get another revenue stream. 

As betfair has got bigger and bigger it has also got so distant from the exciting concept it was in the beginning.  Floated at a bad time and over-valued and now run by non-punters and p1ssed off a lot of customers. And the example in the first post on here is a good example of 'Screw You !'  "gross win of £491 & have to give betunfair £223,this would be funny if it wasnt such a disgrace."

And why has betfair become disliked by its own customers......?

the threat of going onto pc has helped me as i was once a chaser but because i know in the long run i will pay the pc if i have losers i just see this as a set back towards reaching said target.so now all the commission i use to pay has gone and i take very small risks now.i believe this means betfair are losing out to me now

Why dont Betfair allow the first £500 gross winnings per week to be free of premium charge ?

that's a decent idea imo

Jan 31, 2013 -- 1:21PM, 0%profit wrote:

the threat of going onto pc has helped me as i was once a chaser but because i know in the long run i will pay the pc if i have losers i just see this as a set back towards reaching said target.so now all the commission i use to pay has gone and i take very small risks now.i believe this means betfair are losing out to me now

thats actually a good point - bf claim that the premium charge is meant to force ppl with a big edge to take more risk and cut their edge, but in fact it does the opposite as a high variance strategy that might result in alternating winning and losing weeks would be disastrous.

that 999 winner will help a few

This will never affect me, but if I was earning £20,000 per month, I would be mighty p******* off with having to lose £12,000 of that to Betfair, even though I had already paid £1,000 in commission to them for doing nothing more than allowing me to use their site.

It really is a disgrace.

The way out now is for Betfair to increase commission for high earners to maybe 10%, so they win for doing nothing and the high earner gets to keep much more of their hard earned money. Evan 20% wouldn't be a total disaster, greedy but not a total disaster for high earners.

Just trying to see way out of the mess

8 grand a month is still a nice income imo !! Betfair need to address how this affects the small winners on here. People making £400 quid in a week and handing over £200 to Betfair is a joke - If that person has spent 30 hours on here and is left with £200 he is earning £6.66 per hour ffs

remember we will all have the last laugh this model is well on its way out in a few years time they will be phoning you up pleading to put the liquidity into the exchange then you can tell them you have found something better and to f off

move to ****

move to b e t d a q

the first post did nt allow b e t d a q to be put on as I hadnt removed the spaces

Bf gave a reason why they took the amount of commission paid, halved it and called it commission generated (so you paid half of the total amount twice) but I can't recall what the reason was, can anyone remember?

Everyone who suggests increase the basic rate of commission really is clueless. The PC was brought in to cover the leakage from the ontrack crews (£100m plus a year?) and traders. They have very high win rates. If basic commission for them was doubled and they pay under 5% of gross now they would still pay less than 10% of gross.

Compare this to proper genuine punters who are now on 2% and pay 50% of their winnings to Betfair. Double their commission rate and they make zero in the year and leave Betfair. Who would you rather have on the exchange if you owned it?

Why should genuine punters give betfair 50% of winners and the ontrack crews and traders get to keep 90-95% of their winnings? The Premium Charge has levelled things up. If you dont like it place some more margin bets and get your win rate down.

A £500 PC allowance a week? Why should the low contributors get this? Can the rest of us get £500 gross a week to keep before we pay any commission on winning markets?

Why do you assume anyone making about £500 a week is a low contributor ?

Everyone should get the £500 allowance but I would increase the rates for people earning say £5000 a week to compensate the loss to Betfairs bottom line.

You would soon eradicate track players if you charged 75% commission for the big earners

Everyone should have the opportunity to make £26k a year on here paying 2-5% commission. Over a year (working 40 hours a week) its only £13.50 an hour More and more people are drifting away from this place leaving Betfair treading water financially so something needs to be done to stop the rot.

Betfair basically havent a clue what they are doing,they pump millions into the ridiculous betfair sp  even though a 2 year old child could tell them that it was a complete waste of money,they revamp the forum and make it worse. They still cannot rid the site of outages on busy days,cannot have a reasonable and fair rule 4 in place,even after all these years . Now we have no liquidity and premium charges to contend with as well. It looks to me that good ship betfair is taking on lots of water and its only a matter of time before all passengers disembark and the ship sinks to the bottom of the sea. It will be no loss either

jimeen, whatever faults the exchanges might have, to many people including

myself they have been a blessing.  I would be sad to see them go down the tubes.

Well wee eck,my sentiments would be different from yours. I would be glad to see them go down the tubes,and the sooner the better. These people have short memories and have quickly chosen to forget genuine punters who have helped get them up and running. Its only a matter of time though,as soon as the governments start imposing taxes on the players,then it will be goodnight Irene.

They really have fukked the people who made the concept what it was , not everybody paying pc is a fast pics, last 100 yds player.

As for any sort of customer liason that went about 5 yrs ago.

jimeen, I take on board the points you make, but the

adage, cut nose to spite face springs to mind. Best of luck.

No punter pays the PC,fast picture thieves, traders and bot boys pay the
PC because betfair provide them a platform to thieve and skim currently unavailable to any great amounts elsewhere.

you are wrong mmama.

example please roo?

me for a start, sadly

And me.

No punter pays the PC,fast picture thieves, traders and bot boys pay the
PC because betfair provide them a platform to thieve and skim currently unavailable to any great amounts elsewhere.

What a total unprofound statement without fact,there are tens of 'punters' on here who get charged PC,in fact it is a lot of small,consistent winning people who DO get charged PC.

and me

doing what? To be liable for PC you would have to have a strike rate which no punter can ever hope to achieve.

you've got a thread full of people here who obviously pay some kind of PC,do you honestly think these are all fast pic boys or sat track side?

mostly traders

mmm , i back/lay pre race and in-running .
sometimes i might back a horse at 16 and lay at 2.0 , so i might not quite fit into scenario as you could class that as trading .
i never back at 16 to lay at 15.5 or so like the traders do pre-race

A poster on here, asparagus i think his name was, only played pre race backing and laying and he payed it.

You are tarring everybody with the same brush.

yes thats trading

I would say that anyone who pays the P.C. without having an edge is to be admired.

mmmalushka


what a load of bO ll O cks you talk

they hit people like rcing who greened up and made a profit in a race through judgement,not trading and not using a bot just software. You now have to either green up less and take losers on the chin or just increase your win bet size and have just winners and losers.

rcing, were you caught in the P.C. trap when it was worked on a 60 week rolling period? I was.

mmmalushka     01 Feb 13 13:37 
yes thats trading

you misunderstand, he had a bet on something on race a, and may lay something in race b, not that filthy poncing about that these so called pro punters do 450 times a day.

asparagus probably moved to DAQBROKE because he could, and he must be the greatest punter who ever lived to have that kind of strike rate

thats trading was to rcing

agree wee eck they must be a real clever operator.

with liquidity down and laddies putting their strength behind the purple site, there might soon come a time when betfair and the purple site will have similar levels.

with liquidity down and laddies putting their strength behind the purple site, there might soon come a time when betfair and the purple site will have similar levels.

a fragmented market will become a problem imo
hard enough getting matched on the one market

wee eck , i have been paying it for about 20 months now , not sure when the 60 week thingymajig was brought in .

pc is like this , when you are not paying it you wish you were . when are are paying it , you just wish it wasn't so much

i am on 20%

TELL DELL friend of mine who messed about on here greening up all the time

for very small amounts got caught in the PC trap even though he was an overall

winner of approx. 15k left here went elsewhere and is doing exactly the same

thing for an overall charge of 3%.

dustybin 01 Feb 13 10:13 

Bf gave a reason why they took the amount of commission paid, halved it and called it commission generated (so you paid half of the total amount twice) but I can't recall what the reason was, can anyone remember?

-----------

They said using comm paid would imply that losers provided nothing to the exchange. Maybe not those words but something to that effect.

It was a way of getting more money. Taking '20%' is one thing but being sneaky about it is another. It was more than the principle of the charge itself that caused, as still causes, resentment.

rcing, only 20 months?  Then you must have hit the lifetime winnings 250k nett target, well done indeed.

yeah john, its much like compounded interest on credit cards where you pay interest on interest, to think there are ppl who think these things up leaves me cold.

Johnb, they halved the commission one paid on winning bets but to appear fair

they credited one with a mythical 3% tax paid on losing bets.

wee eck , i haven't hit the 250k target , but i think i get charged because my commission generated is not 20% of my profit .

i should say wee eck , i was on here for about 2-3 years before i started paying pc . i have been paying it now for about 20 months .

Wasn't the implied comm figure changed to a fixed 3% aswell, screwing you over again?

Well it screwed smaller bettors over while giving those on under 3% easier opportunites to reduce it.

I might be wrong about that. I try and put the PC out of my mind rather than get annoyed over it.

If comm paid does not equal 20% of gross profits, then pay the difference. Whether right or wrong that would be simple and transparent. Instead the PC rules are like War and Peace.

rcing you must have been copped in the 60 week rolling period then,

I thought that altered around 3 years ago but I must be wrong.

If you were to join now you would be allowed to win 250k before you

would be liable to pay the charge, it really is a bit complicated but

massively in favour of this exchange.

N

Eck the 250k is for the higher charge.  The 20% is fair enough imo, but the higher charge is over the top.

The 250k only applies to the 40%, 50% and 60% rates.

wee eck , i thought if you win over 250k it goes up to 40-60%

rcing, if that is the case I am wrong, cheers best of luck in the future.

Not sure if anyone is interested, but i bet a maximum of £10 per bet, a really small player compared to some of you guys, but i would like to thank you because your premium charge pays for all the free bets B/F give me through the rewards chest.

(Just saying)

is it not the case that any new customers who join betfair could be paying the pc within a matter of weeks

thanks wee eck , good luck to you too