Bernard van Cutsem

I remember his great-grandmother.

When Bernard's horses were well-backed .....

They WERE WELL-backed.

Often won, too.

Top Trainer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1970-Press-Photo-Record-Priced-Yearling-crowned-pr...

hugh [son]? Prince Charles's best mate

He trained the high class mare Park Top.

Rather aristocratic looking - with a large pointed nose - from memory.

He used to have a race named after him at Newmarket I think.

Indeed, pauli - Now the Superlative Stakes.

He trained at the famous Stanley House Stables - now Godolphin, I think.

the 1st "van the man"

There was a story that he drove straight to the Heath - for first lot - from a night 'on the tables' in a London Casino.

I wonder if he was wearing 'Black Tie', too.

I can believe that onlooker.

1969 Horses In Training

66 Horse Listed - including ...

5yr mare  PARK TOP
5yr horse PETROS
4yr colt  MOUNTAIN CALL
4ye colt  KARABAS

Owners:

Lord Derby
Mrs Aubrey-Fletcher
F W Burmann
Henry L Boulton
Sir Bryan Bonsor
Charles Clore
Carlos Defino
Duke of Devonshire
I E Kornberg
Dr Conrado Labreclossa
Lord Lumley
Hon. Keith Mason
Hon. Mrs David Montagu
Hon. Mr David Montagu
Lord Iveagh
Rory More O'Ferrall
Hon. Mrs Richard Stanley
Hon. P Ward
Lady Emma Tennant
Himself

* Those were the days, eh

Jockey - W Carson (7st 5lb)

Apprentice:  W Buick (7-7

Parnell

Buick's older than I thought.

ONLOOKER
JUST A MINOR DETAIL, BUT BELIEVE WILLIE CARSON WAS RETAINED BY LORD DERBY,NOT AS STABLE JOCKEY?????

74 Horse Listed in 1973

including - PARNELL - RELPIN - DECIES - NOBLE DECREE

He died in 1975 - aged just 59.

Contributions from me...

Racing Colours - Mauve with a yellow sash
Trained for Lord Derby
Son Hugh - the best shot I have ever seen.

patsyone -

The 1969 Book  - states 'first claim'
The 1973 Book  - just states ... W Carson - with his weight up 3 lbs to 7-8.

Made a trip to France to back Parnell which came second

Tony Murry was on the plane and I asked if he wanted to share a cub to the track

He said someone was picking up Lister

In other words NO

ACCEPT BEING CORRECTED ONLOOKER
VAN CUTSEM WAS VERY GOOD CRICKETER IN EARLY DAYS

Crowned Prince

Park Top

The Duke of Devonshire purchased one of L.S.Lowery paintings out of his winnings from his horse.

I can tell you he paid a few £1,000s for it then which was a lot of money at that time for a Lowery

5 million today ?

Bernard Van Cutsem had 4 sons -

The eldest married well ....

The wedding of Edward Bernard Charles van Cutsem (b. 1973), eldest son of Hugh Bernard Edward van Cutsem (b. 1941) by his wife the former Jonkyrouwe Emilie Quarles van Ufford - and Lady Tamara Grosvenor (eldest daughter of the 6th Duke of Westminster and his wife, née Natalia Phillips) took place at Eaton Hall near Chester on November 6th 2004.

Crowned Prince

Was a talking horse

I was there when it got beat in the Craven at odds on.

Seems just like the other day

Onlooker - you are getting your generations muddled up.

Wasn't it Van Cutsem who when asked after one of his horses had just won, "whats the plan for this horse?", replied

"That was the plan!"

Onlooker - Apologies, I think I misread your post. No doubt at all that Bernard's son Hugh married well.

He started training around 1960.

1961 Horses In Training - has him with just 17 horses Listed - 11 of them 2-yr-olds.

The oldest horse, at 7yr,  being an LINE SHOOTER - who won the 1960 Newbury Spring Cup, carrying just 7 st 1 lb.

ONLOOKER
AFRAID YOUR WRONG WILLIE NEVER STABLE JOCKEY,
APPRENTICED TO.     G ARMSTRONG 1957-63
                                  FRED ARMSTRONG 1963--66
    Retained first jockey LORD DERBY 1967----1977
    Retained first jockey MAJOR HERN 1977-----1997 to include named ROYAL JOCKEY

Onlooker - the 1960 season would be about right. Not listed at the start of that season but listed for the start of the 61 season and located at Northmere in Exning. Not sure how long he was there but at least two seasons.

patsyone.

I am only typing what IS PRINTED in HORSES IN TRAINING Annuals.

In that case - The ANNUALS are wrong, then .....

Although - If you were to look at the LIST of Van Cutsem's OWNERS - that I posted at 21:42  - from those Same Annuals .....

LORD DERBY is Listed FIRST, in Pole Position.

patsyone - there are often multiple and conflicting sources of information re riding arrangements. Specifically Owner retainers and stable jockeyship can be confusing where trainer (amongst others) trains for said owner!.   

Willie definitely moved to BVC in 1966. Willie definitely rode High Top to win the Guineas for BVC for another senior owner. Willie did not leave BVC for Dick Hern until after BVC's death. More than this I do not know.

Crowned Prince beat Rheingold twice as a 2yo, so he wasn't just a talking horse. I remember him as a very chunky looking 2yo. Was he pumped full of steroids as a yearling maybe? I don't think he grew much from 2 to 3.

Think the "Plan" quote was from the Hunt Cup which Old Lucky won

Remember Crowned Prince getting turned over at about 2/7 in a big field of maidens on debut at Newmarket when the race was part of the TV Saturday coverage. Despite been unplaced it still went off a very short price for the Champagne Stakes on next start which it won with form figures next to it of 0.

His American wife was Mimi Mills and Mimi's sister owns Union Rags that won the Belmont last year...also Mimi's father bred look below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_du_Pont_Mills

Lester Rode many times for him, Park Top and karabus being 2 of my favourite horses.

Park top was a late developer and cost 500gns as I recall but had one burst of speed and I am sure Lester always said her best trip was 10 furlongs but stayed 12 if conserved.
Vancutsem was unhappy with the ride Lester gave Park Top in the arc but Lester was adamant she would not have stayed the distance had he ridden her any other way.

I seem to remember Karabas winning the washington international but could be wrong.

Crowned Prince just before my time but must have been something of a rarity being a champion 2-y-o who ran in blinkers.

Monday 21st March 1966, the day I left school, first day of the flat season at Donny, bought Substitute by The Who, backed Bosun's Whistle (B Van Cutsem, Russ Maddock) at 100-6 in the 'Batthyany', happy days.

As far as Van Cutsem's retained jockeys are concerned, Willie Carson began his association with Van Cutsem in 1967 to take over from the retiring Doug Smith who was retained by Lord Derby. Russ Maddock was first claim for all other owners and this situation continued through 1968 until 1969 when Willie Carson became first jockey for all owners in the yard until Van Cutsem retired in 1975.

High Top beaten fav. for the 2000 guineas  W.Carson on board

My mate and I went to Brighton one day as he made Park Top a good thing at about 6/4 I think it was

I talked him into backing something else

Opps not a very nice train ride home that day.

Can't imagine a top class horse like Park Top turning up at Brighton these days.

Lotone - there is a 25 minute film on youtube about the owner of Union Rags...very good it is...she is married to Jamie Wyeth, the famous artist...UNION RAGS AN AMERICAN LOVE STORY.

High Top won the guineas.

very interesting thread
The thing I remember about him is that his two year olds of 1971 included Crowned Prince, Grey Mirage, High Top Sharpen Up and Relpin who won a host of the top 2yo races that season. A collection that even Godolphin would have been pleased with.

Thanks herrero,i was thinking on the same lines re the 71 2.y.o's,i remembered the first 3 but it was driving me mad trying to remember Sharpen Up,cheers,think Grey Mirage was sold and trained by bill marshall after his 2.y.o career.

I was at Ripon one Wednesday afternoon around 1972 and Willie Carson had just won the last race on one of Bernard's. He had travelled up to Ripon and was unsaddling the horse when Sam Hall came over and told Bernard that the horse had little chance on that running in the valuable Andy Capp handicap on the following Saturday for which the horse was currently the ante post favourite. Bernard agreed and they were both spot on. Little did I know at the time that these two relatively young trainers would both die suddenly within the next few years whist still holding a licence.

Was a great trainer, Up with the best at the times.

Velasquez    ...thanks for the heads up about the movie

Ribero Grey Mirage did go to Bill Marshall for his three year old career, I don`t think he ran as a four year old. I once has a leg in a Grey Mirage filly called Swynfords Miss who was home bred at Swynford Paddocks in Six Mile Bottom by Ian Bryant who sent er to Bill Marshall. Not because of the Grey Mirage connection but because Bill Marshall was a patron of the Swynford Paddocks Hotel and restaurant!!. Bill managed to win a four or five runner seller at Warwick by 15 lengths for us but she was decidedly moderate and never won again.

Iremember Johnny Roe riding many a big race winner for him

Good call, superdub - correct.

Lester had a good relationship as far as he could with anyone,BVC was as tolerant as you could get with LP.

I remember a horse called Tsar.

Are Godolphin now based in his old stables?

Superdub, I've been scratching my head trying to think of a big race winner that Johnny Roe rode for BVC and I've come up with a blank. Were they in his very early days as a trainer ?

Paulbu - That comment had me going too! I cannot find a "big" winner ridden by Roe for van Cutsem. Nearly every big Johnny Roe winner seems to have been for the usual Irish trainers he rode form, and every big van Cutsem winner was ridden by the usual bunch described below. I would be interested in any link, as it seems that the van Cutsem and Johnny Roe link is based on a single internet source.

FELTFAIR     27 Jan 13 11:35 

Are Godolphin now based in his old stables?
-------------

Yes, FELTFAIR - I posted that in the early part of this thread.

Thanks Ribero.

My mistake,
I was thinking of Crowned Prince.
I think.

Tiptheodds

I backed the horse for eight months to win the Derby all E.W

I stood to win a forture

When it hit the front I could not talk I went into shock

Here is the race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUv45-Jdq1A

The one thing they thought about the horse was that it would stay

To say I was gutted is an understatement

Just to the put the cherry on the cake it finished 4th

thx for that seaside. Came with a perfect run to win the race - I would have been gutted too.

BVC ...when the money was down ..Doug Smith  was on board .

Blackbarn, according to 'Breedon', Bernard Van Cutsem had very little success in pattern races and prestige handicaps before Doug Smith retired in '67 and as you say, those in the period '68 to '74, the vast majority were ridden by the usual suspects Carson and Piggott with the latter probably talking his way into some of the rides on the 'steering jobs' in the group 1s and group 2s.

Zipper - Do you have any examples of Doug Smith "money down"! winners for BVC?  As is indicated below he rode for Lord Derby who BVC trained for, but that's about it.

Paulbu - Thanks. I agree. Even before Doug retired, BVC hired Johnny Roe for the 1965 flat season as stable jockey. Despite his success in Ireland he appears not to have been very successful, with Willie C arriving in 1966, and as you say the usual suspects riding his big winners. Those usual suspects included Russ Maddock who appears to have been the closest BVC had to a stable jock in the early/mid 60's before Willie.

Thanks fellas -  really enjoyed the thread - these are all to infrequent these days

Speaking of Doug Smith -

Does anybody remember a National Newspaper bet (Daily Mail, I think) called .... 'ROLL-UP'

The idea was to pick 20 Consecutive Winners at 'around Evens' - to 'Make a Million' from a £1 Stake.

There did NOT have to be a selection Every day - and people would buy the paper to see if there was a ROLL-UP Selection that day.

Lots of smaller fields, and Shorter Priced FAVS in those days - made it far more plausible than to today's decidedly dodgy state of play would.

They managed to get the Winners up into the Mid-Teens, possibly even 17 or 18, I believe - and excitement was really mounting, with it being the Talk of the Betting Shops.

On the next day of destiny - Apparently, one 'old codger' proclaimed .....

"He hasn't picked one of Dougie Smith's yet  .......... He DID .......

It LOST.

Trained by Bernard van Cutsem

Apart from running the favourite Ksar in the 73 Derby Van Cutsem also saddled the Guineas runner up Noble Decree who too went off a single figure price ridden by Brian Taylor. Remember him as a very good trainer at that time. Probably a William Haggas type ability wise.

Apart from running the favourite Ksar in the 73 Derby Van Cutsem also saddled the Guineas runner up Noble Decree who too went off a single figure price ridden by Brian Taylor. Remember him as a very good trainer at that time. Probably a William Haggas type ability wise.

Re Van Cutsem/Roe:-

I've just had a look through the Ascot cards of June 1965. Johnny Roe looks to have had 1 or 2 mounts every day that week. Only 1 was for BVC - Bosuns Whistle on his racecourse debut in the Erroll Stakes on the Saturday. During the week he had a couple for Bill O'Gorman, a couple for Dave Thom, 1 for MVO'B (Queens Vase), 1 for Charlie Weld, and 1 for someone called Killick.

Johnny Roe won the first running of the March Stakes at Goodwood in August 1965 on Vivat Rex for Walter Wharton. He had 4 mounts on the card - 2 for Wharton, 1 for Keith Piggott, and 1 for BVC - in a 3-runner nursery.

He was champion jockey in Ireland in 63, 64, 66, 67, 68. So I guess '65 was a year that didn't work out for him.

Remember the roll up you are correct it was always talked about

my old fella used to have a system he followed from the cards in the Daily Herald in those days reckoned he made good money from it.He was gutted when the paper went belly up.

SEASIDE and SPARROW
YOUR RIGHT THINKING THE LIKES OF PARK TOP WOULDN'T RUN IN HANDICAP TODAY
BUT SHE CERTAINLY DID AND WON THE BRIGHTON CUP 1967
I WAS THERE AS A 18 YEAR OLD WITH A WONDERFUL GUY FROM SOUTH END I SEEM TO REMEMBER CALLED
CHARLIE NOSTEL,THINK HIS DAD EITHER DROVE LESTER ABOUT OR AT LEAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIM

The Brighton Cup was almost a "prestige" handicaps in the sixties. hence the quality of the winners.

Re earlier posts, any chance of details of a quality winner trained by van Cutsem and ridden by Johnny Roe?

Park Top also won the Brighton Cup in 1968 and as you say blackbarn it was a decent handicap in those days.  I've been thinking about the BVC/Roe combination but I cannot recollect any big winners.

Another tenuous little link...connecting Crowned Prince with Brighton...

Crowned Prince was beaten at 2-7 on his debut in a Newmarket maiden. The horse that beat him was Jeune Premier (who proved useful, but not top class). Jeune Premier was trained by Bill Payne, who also trained Soueida, who set a world record for the mile (1m 31.8) at Brighton in 1963. Bill Payne was a bit unlucky not to win the 1928 Grand National for his father on Great Span. He was one of just 3 horses left standing approaching the 2nd last, and appeared to be going best, but the saddle slipped and he UR'd. (Billy Barton then fell at the last leaving Tipperary Tim to win). Bill Payne was 17 at the time, and would have been the youngest jockey to win the race up to that point (Bruce Hobbs was about 6 months younger when winning the race 10 years later).

Crowned Prince's full brother Majestic Prince (3 years older) won the first 2 legs of the US triple crown, but was beaten by Arts And Letters (a Ribot colt) in the Belmont. That horse was runner-up in the first 2 legs. The 2 horses between them won just about every big race in the US in 1969.

Here's an account from Sports Illustrated of Karabas's win in the Washington International at Laurel, in 1969:-

At Laurel earlier, the accent was not so much on money—although Lord Iveagh's Karabas collected $100,000 for winning the 18th International—as it was on riding ability. Britain's longtime champion jockey, Lester Piggott, a victor on Sir Ivor a year ago, demonstrated his skill by turning in a cool ride aboard Karabas, while most of his rivals acted as if they were competing in the bush league. The American team of Czar Alexander and Hawaii were running one-two, as expected, turning for home, while behind them on the rail sat Piggott on Karabas. Piggott had saved ground every bit of the way, while Jorge Velasquez had lost ground most of the way by running Hawaii on the outside. On the final turn Angel Cordero, on the lead with Czar Alexander, went slightly wide, taking Hawaii out with him, and Piggott quickly drove Karabas through inside of them. He won drawing away by a little over a length. Hawaii, the South African-bred who is this country's best grass runner, beat Czar Alexander by half a length for second, while the four other foreigners in the seven-horse field (the two French entries and the U.S.'s Nodouble were withdrawn) trailed from 12 to 33 lengths behind.

Karabas, filling in for his stablemate, the brilliant mare Park Top, made the many visiting Britishers (some 170 were aboard a jet chartered by the 17,000-member Racegoers Club) a bit wealthier when he paid $9.20. Trainer Bernard van Cutsem had been so displeased with the slipshod transportation methods used to get foreign horses to Laurel that he threatened never to bring over another challenger. But after the race he said, "Lester, after all, did what we practice everywhere, didn't he? The shortest way home is the best way, isn't it?" The lesson to be learned from the International, obviously, is that if this country is to hold its own in such competition U.S. horsemen must develop more mile-and-a-half turf specialists.

blackbarn:-

They teamed up to win the 5.0 at Wolverhampton on Tues Aug 3, 1965, with M.I.5 (11/8 fav). That's a start! On the same day, Piggott and Murless had a double at Brighton (as they did at the same meeting the year before), and George Todd had a double there too.

Very interesting thread.  Thanks for that info on Karabas ged.

I've had a quick look through cards at several of the big meetings for 1965, and Johnny Roe had few mounts for BvC in them. His best rides appear to have been for Dave Thom and Walter Wharton. The best winner of his that I've found for that season was perhaps Prince Hansel for Dave Thom, winning the Bentinck Stakes (the day before the March Stakes mentioned above). He carried 9-6 and won by 6 and 5, with the queen's Golden Oriole 2nd. Trelawney (9yo) was top weight with 9-11, and was unplaced. The other 4 runners (including the 2nd) carried 7-12 or less.

The 1000 Guineas that Roe won on Nocturnal Spree for Stuart Murless in 1975 was the meeting where striking stable lads tried to disrupt racing.

Found a quote in one of my old books...

"Champion jockey Johnny Roe is leaving Ireland after two seasons at the top of the list to take up his new duties as stable jockey to Bernard van Cutsem". 

This was the English season of 1965. Since he again became Irish champion jockey in 1966, it seems that this arrangement lasted just the one season.

One area that was going well in 1965 was that of racecourse attendances in the north. This, from May 22 !965:-

"Within a week, four northern racecourses have broken attendance records. On Saturday, there was a crowd of more than 13,000 at Ayr, the largest gathering to date for Usher's day, and Ripon had their best May Saturday with a crowd of more than 15,000.
On the same day, Newcastle broke their existing record for National Hunt racing with a crowd of nearly 9000, and York's Wednesday crowd of more than 16,000 was the best for their second day of their spring meeting.
The encouraging feature of this increase in attendance is that three of the four courses concerned have had major improvements carried out since last year. Ayr is due to open a new stand in the cheap enclosure shortly".


No fancy name - just 'cheap' enclosure.

There's a piece here about Johnny Roe, written by Simon Milham (used to post on here, as milham), from the Mail online.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-451976/Whatever-happened--Johnny-Roe.html


In case you don't want to click, here's most of it.... (No mention of BvC, though he does talk about the '75 1000 Guineas).



The 1975 Guineas meeting was almost overshadowed by violence on the track due to the efforts by striking stable lads to disrupt the races as part of their pay dispute with trainers.

The dramatic scenes on the Rowley Mile - where racegoers confronted the strikers - meant that the racing itself was reduced to a sidebar.

Universally liked by his weighing room colleagues, Johnny Roe wasn't a man who courted a headline. He simply went about business in his usual understated way: quietly, proficiently and prolifically.

Though his 1000 Guineas-winning ride aboard the Stuart Murless-trained Nocturnal Spree deserved more column inches than it received, Roe was just happy to add another Classic to add to his Irish Oaks (with Pampalina in 1967) and Irish 1000 Guineas (with Royal Danseuse in 1964).

And happy that he'd been right.

"She was a very easy filly to ride," said Roe, from his home in Dublin. "She had an excellent temperament, but she was very green. She went into the race having had only two previous runs.

"Joe Mercer rode her the first time when she was beaten as a two-year-old, and she ran again in a three-year-old maiden at The Curragh. When I jumped off her that day, I said I thought she'd win the Guineas because she'd won with so much in hand."

Roe began his race-riding apprenticeship under Seamus McGrath in Dublin in the early 1950s. He started his senior riding career in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) before returning to Ireland, where he became champion jockey nine times.

He rode over 2,500 winners in over 20 countries, but May 1, 1975, was extra-special.

"Lester (Piggott) was favourite on a horse called Rose Bowl," remembered Roe. "My filly was green and we both went for an opening at The Bushes. For me, that was much too soon, because under normal circumstances I would have waited, but I didn't want to get left (behind).

"Lester didn't get the opening and came in for some harsh criticism afterwards. We were passed going up the hill, but my filly was very game. She came back and we won by a short head (beating the Philippe Lallie-trained and Jean-Paul Lefevre-ridden Girl Friend).

"It was a great thrill and it came at a time where I could really appreciate it. I really fancied her and told the owners to back her."

Roe served as stable jockey to Dermot Weld, John Oxx senior and Vincent O'Brien, the latter whom he holds in the highest esteem.

"He was number one," said Roe. "His attention to detail was absolute. I remember one instance where he had a horse in the yard that was ready to win.

"But he took one look at its jaw and he could tell by the hairs on it that the horse had not 'coated out', so he didn't run him for six weeks. He could still have run and won - and he did when he ran again - but he was so dedicated to his horses that he would not run them if they were not right."

Having gone on to ride in Hong Kong and North America (booting home numerous winners at Delaware and Pimlico), Roe hung up his boots in 1980 and trained in Macau for five years.

"Then the stock market plunged and people gave up owning horses, so I had to take on the cost of training them, which was difficult," said Roe, without any hint of bitterness.

And that's the endearing thing about the congenial 69-year-old.

"He was not only one hell of a good rider - a masterful tactician - he's a man I have great admiration for," explains Sir Peter O'Sullevan. "He's one of the nicest guys I've met. He never had a big 'tip' for himself."

Though slowed by rheumatoid arthritis and forced to give up his passions of golf and tennis a few years ago, Johnny's wife, Helen, looks after him supremely well.

He is a bloodstock agent on a small scale, regularly travelling to the Far East, where he has placed a number of top-class horses, both in Hong Kong and Macau.

Nor II is just one example of his eye for talent that has resulted in many successful purchases for owners and trainers the world over. He went on to become one of the top five stakes earners in the US the following year.

Active Bobo, bought unbroken by Roe, was Macau's top horse in two consecutive seasons and the first from the colony to travel to (and win) in Dubai.

"I have friends in Hong Kong who ask me to get them a horse every year and I might sell one or two," said Roe, who watches racing almost every day, and is rich in his praise for Michael Kinane, Johnny Murtagh and last year's champion, Declan McDonogh.

A modest man, Roe admits he would like to become a syndicate adviser.

"Johnny would be exceptional in that role, I'm certain," insists O'Sullevan, no mean judge himself. "He has a wealth of experience and would be a great help to a lot of people."

These are strange days. Racing is still in a state of flux and often hitting the headlines for the wrong reasons. So it is comforting that Johnny Roe is still going about his business. Quietly. Proficiently.

Interesting stuff on attendances Ged.  That was the year that we lost Birmingham, Bogside and Rothbury!!

Not that well then!

I did find J Roe winning one at Birmingham that year (not for BvC).

...on Terry Downes for Bill O'Gorman (beat Tiber Bay and Kipper Lynch a short head, with Maestoso and Bobby Elliott 3rd).

In fact he must have made some Tote Double backers happy that day. he won the 3rd and 5th races on the card. The other won was a 20/1 shot (Ramsey Girl, also trained by Bill O'Gorman), beating Piggott on a 5/4 shot of Engelhard's (Call To Arms).

*one (Jesus!)

The biggest success for Johnny Roe when riding for Van Cutsem was on Mandamus in the £8k William Hill Handicap at Redcar which was a prestige handicap at the time (at least in terms of prize money)and carried the same prize money as the Lincoln. Mandamus also won under Roe in the Thirsk Hunt Cup and another valuable £5k handicap at Ascot. It's a good job that Mandamus was in the yard because he contributed more than half of the stable prize money for the '65 season.