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08 Jan 13 09:48
Date Joined: 07 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 2,559 | Blogger: Koo....'s blog
I've a couple of mares, and so have a few friends of mine.

We've banded a few names around ourselves and got a rough shortlist, but just wondered if any of the gurus on here had any strong views on which stallions represent best value for money if you were 100% going to keep them on to race on.

Obviously i'm based near York, but im happy to pay a few quid travelling if needed but do understand the convenience angle of walking them in to a sire around here. 

The mares id say aren't anything flash, so lets not go too daft on the prices.  Id be thinking around 10k max

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Report Koo.... January 11, 2013 9:48 AM GMT
It is indeed Caranbola, fire away any suggestions.  And that list of pedigrees are the right ones
Report DMCK January 11, 2013 11:16 AM GMT
i have heard very good reports about Authorized over the last year but most are best described as "headers" and invariably need some type of equipment (hood/cheekpieces/blinkers). For owner/breeders if your willing to compromise on getting a 2year old he has to be on your shortlist.
Report Gimcrack January 11, 2013 1:00 PM GMT
Ah, not a bad bunch! Some nice pedigrees in there and plenty of decent racehorses. I'm not sure exactly what you want to be breeding, in terms of type: two year olds, speed horses, stayers etc? And I haven't seen the horses so I can only judge based on what you've said. But I do enjoy a challenge!

As you are looking to breed to race I would probably stick to proven sires - at least those who have had some runners anyway. This does mean you can miss out on a bit of value in some places but when you consider how many sires go to stud each year and how many actually make it, it's probably not worth the risk.

I wouldn't be opposed to having a go with MOUNT NELSON for the more forward/smaller mares. He doesn't seem to have captured the imagination's of the bloodstock agents and pin-hookers but the reports from trainers are good. He had a fair start with his first two year olds and they're definitely expected to perform better as three year olds this year. Unfortunately they look like they do need time and I know how annoying it can be having a horse in training that isn't ready to run. Though, could turn out to be value off his current fee. Newsells should deal as well.

For the bigger mares you could look at AUSSIE RULES, not much of a sales horse but has had plenty of winners many going on to perform well at stakes level. Often precocious and generally train on. Lanwades unlikely to offer any significant concessions though.

As a cheaper, similar option you could also have a look at CAMACHO. Has done well from fairly average books so far. Has got a decent crop of two year olds running for him this year based on yearling results. Mickley very likely to offer you a discount particularly if you double up with something else.

HAAFHD could be another to consider for the bigger mares - often a bit short in the leg. He has done really well the last couple of years. Gets plenty of winners. Usually early and train on. Though, I think with something like KNAVESMIRE I would be tempted go a bit higher in terms of fee. I think she's done enough on the racecourse to justify it. Could be one for ROYAL APPLAUSE - especially if she has plenty of size about her. Although he gets plenty of two year old winners they do tend to train on well which should compliment the mare.

KHELEYF is another who always seems to be there or thereabouts. Not everyones cup of tea and, again, not always performed at the sales but gets tonnes of early winners. Darley likely to deal.

COMPTON PLACE is always a good bet to get you a good strong type. May be reaching the twilight of his career now, but I think his fee rise this year justifies how popular he is.

SLEEPING INDIAN is a good solid performer. Had an excellent year with his two year olds last year but do tend to perform better with age. Often gets nice neat well-made stock. May be one to consider for LILY LENOR?

If you are looking to stay cheap, I would definitely consider something like MULTIPLEX. Sired plenty of winners from very moderate mares and some have been decent. I've been really impressed from what I've seen of his stock - he really puts his stamp on them. Also gets plenty of early runners as long as the mare isn't too backward. You could possibly get him for around the 1000 mark. Especially if you double up. 

Hope this helps.
Report roadrunner46 January 12, 2013 8:02 AM GMT
Iffraaj £10,000 looks good bet.
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 9:09 AM GMT
Knavesmire looks more conventional

Mount Nelson
Aussie Rules
Royal Applause
Sakhees Secret
Report jmc27 January 12, 2013 1:15 PM GMT
No one going for Medicean???
Report Black Sam Bellamy January 12, 2013 3:29 PM GMT
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 5:33 PM GMT

Royal Applause
Aussie Rules
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 5:55 PM GMT
Ananda Canda, no data for Heros tribute, Lenjoleur or Architect

Lily Lenor

Sixties Icon
Cockney Rebel

I don't particularly rate Proclamation but I keep checking for mistakes and I guess he just suits your mares.
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 6:06 PM GMT
Striking Cat

Passing Glance
Arabian Gleam ?
Royal Applause
Bated Breath
Report kincsem January 12, 2013 7:52 PM GMT
I am taking my time with recommendations.  I know you want local sires, but one cheap sire in Co Carlow, Ireland looks like he would suit the mare Ananda Kenda (I put her pedigree up on a few minutes ago.)

The sire is Dandy Man, standing at Ballyhane Stud, Leighlinbridge, Co Carlow, at €4,000.  However, their website does not list him, but does list him at Ballyhane Stud (itm - Irish Thoroughbred Marketing.)

Dandy Man was very fast, contesting the 5f King’s Stand Stakes at Royal Ascot four years in a row (4th, 2nd, 4th, 7th).
Dandy Man’s sire was Mozart, a Coolmore sire who died young.  Mozart in a run of four races in 2001 was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas, 1st in the 7f G3 Jersey Stakes, 1st in the 6f G1 July Cup, 1st in the 5f G1 Nunthorpe Stakes.
Dandy Man’s dam, Lady Alexander, was also speedy and precocious, winning three times as a two year old, beating subsequent English 2000 Guineas winner, King Of Kings.

The real reason for suggesting Dandy Man is his pedigree and Ananda Kenda’s pedigrees, when put together, in my opinion complement each other.
They both have supersire Danzig on their male lines (4th generation x 5th generation in the proposed offspring.)
The mare Glowing Tribute is the dam of Sea Hero (Ananda Kenda’s sire's sire), and she is also the dam of Mozart dam’s dam Victoria Cross (4 gen x 4 gen).
The sire of Lady Alexander, Night Shift (Northern Dancer-Ciboulette), is a full sibling (same sire and dam) as Fanfreluche, the dam of Ananda Kenda’s damsire, L’Enjoleur (3 gen x 4 gen).
Besides all these duplications of important ancestors, there are extra of important sires and dams, Ribot, Flower Bowl, Buckpasser, Hail To Reason.

Doubling up good horses in the proposed offspring can load the dice in the breeding lottery.

The sire is fast.  He was precocious, as was his sire and dam.  The fee is small.
Report kincsem January 12, 2013 8:17 PM GMT
Kentucky Broodmares of the Year Since 1946

1993 GLOWING TRIBUTE, 1973 (Graustark-Admiring, by Hail to Reason)
Sire line: Ribot
9 wins, $230,819, Stakes Winner
DP 6-3-29-10-4, DI 0.82, CD –0.06

Hero’s Honor, by Northern Dancer;
Wild Applause, by Northern Dancer;
Glowing Honor, by Seattle Slew;
Seattle Glow, by Seattle Slew;
Sea Hero, by Polish Navy;
Coronation Cup, by Chief’s Crown;
Mackie, by Summer Squall
Report potentialmillionaire January 12, 2013 8:45 PM GMT
gosh, lots of theories abound here,

Sepoy, 15k and rather full!

I wouldn't go near unproven, but I am sure that Koo you have been around long enough to know the massive % of sires that fail without mne saying so.

Simple tables that show you winners to runners would be the place I would start and then if you are ambitious the tables that show superior runners to foals perhaps. I'm afraid that I can't spend any time on your mares pedigrees but I wouild use stallions that mirror your fillies aptitudes and just hope to improve them. The world is your oyster really as there are a lot of sires out there who are cheap because they aren't commercial not because they are bad.

The more you go down the precocious route the worse the stallions become and the vaue for money deteriorates too.
Report kincsem January 12, 2013 9:47 PM GMT
UK Sire locations

County Durham____4
South Wales______2

I agree with the previous poster about proven sires.

A good place to look would be the Statistical Record Annual published by Weatherbys.
Under Sires you can find their winners in the past year listed, but of greater interest
is the Average Earnings for the year, and cumulative.  And the cumulative AEI
shows the number of "year starters" e.g.342, so you have an idea of how solid is the AEI.

Unfortunately, I stopped buying it around 2000.  I see the 2011 edition was published on 8/2/12.
I'll wait a few weeks and order it then (£55 or €67 Sad)
Report truehoncho January 12, 2013 9:56 PM GMT
If it were me Koo, I would look to breed something that will get a mile plus and train on. Its ok to get a 2yo but so many of them dont do much after (especially the likes of Kheleyf etc). I would rather not put something in training as a 2yo if I thought it had a good chance of running until its 6 or 7. Many horses are pushed on as 2yo's and it ruins their chances of reaching its true level of ability. Trainers feed them hard and often to get them into shape and create stomach problems for the future and push them too hard on the gallops causing injuries and souring horses. So here are my suggestions for 3yo plus types (all well under £10k):
Dubai Destination
Medicean (at £10k is a cheap stallion)

and a couple of unproven ones:
Fame and Glory
Report ovalu January 12, 2013 10:40 PM GMT
Kincsm if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 11:52 PM GMT

Unsolicited I know, purely stats based, Ireland
Report proxygene January 12, 2013 11:54 PM GMT
less than 15k Euro

Dylan Thomas
Intense Focus
Roderic O'Connor
Report kincsem January 13, 2013 12:11 AM GMT
Kincsem if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks

No problem.  It might take a week.  Do you want to spend €10 or €100,000?
She seems to be stamina bred, but speed wins races.

At the moment I'm gathering the AEIs of all European and USA sires I can lay my hands on.  My idea is to find the pedigrees with the highest AEI (AEI=average earnings index = average prizemoney won by a sire's offspring / average for all runners.)  A very good sire's runners will earn about four times the average, a poor sire's runners down around 0.3 of average.
Other things I'm working on are average winning distance of a sire's offspring, and likely going preferences of offspring.  I want to be ready for the flat season.  It's my time to waste. Blush

Some people would only be interested in the stallion's AEI, but I would like to know also what the sire's folks were like.

My interest is pedigrees and betting on the flat.
I have no connection with the breeding industry.
I don't claim to be an expert.
I will give reasons for my picks.
Report kincsem January 13, 2013 2:48 AM GMT
Kincsm if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks

I've looked at all the Irish stallions.

A possible is Kodiac by Danehill-Rafha (fee €7000, Tally-Ho Stud, Mullingar).  Rafha is the dam of Invincible Spirit, a successful and expensive sire.
Byron is another possible (fee private but was €2,500, Woodlands Stud, Co Galway).
They both have a few runners rated over 100.
Duke Of Marmalade was slightly interesting, but a €12,500 fee, and no runners over 100 is not so nice.
Baltic King is a maybe.  He ran as a 7-y-o.  He is at stud since 2008, fee €3000, again Tally-Ho Stud (I swear this is coincidence).  He has one runner over 100. He has Sadler's Wells full sibling, Fairy King, in his 2nd generation, which would give a 3x3 duplications of full brothers.  That might be too close.

A problem with your mare is she has Sadler's Wells close up in her pedigree, so that rules out twenty three Irish sires by Sadler's Wells and the many others that are his grandsons.
I notice Veliyka has a similar pedigree to Myth To Reality, dam of sire Whipper (both by Sadler's Wells out of a Mill Reef mare.)  Whipper is by Miesque's Son, a son of the great mare Miesque by Nureyev.  Fwiw Byron has Nureyev in his pedigree (but not Miesque Happy)  Duke Of Marmalade also has Nureyev but further back.

That is as much as I can do.  I could recommend expensive sires based on their results.  They have failures too.
Report midas7 January 13, 2013 12:12 PM GMT
Great thread and  very interesting for an owner like myself to read the thoughts of so many informed/astute contributors. For me this is what a forum should be about. Educational/balanced/people trying to help others,what a difference from the usual slagging,nonsense spoken on other forums,keep it up please!!

Koo I hope you appreciate the input you are getting and best of luck with whatever direction you go too.By the way we have something in common in that we both use Danny Cook-very nice guy/good jockey who provides great feedback on the horses performance!!
Report Koo.... January 13, 2013 12:17 PM GMT
Yes, enjoying all the input.  I read this forum quite alot anyways, but obviously alot the talk is geared to commercial stallions and owners making a profit.

Theres so many ways of thinking its hard to determine which way you want to go.  And enough sires to give you alot of options.
Report Koo.... January 13, 2013 12:30 PM GMT
A good friend of mine has 2 mares and he has chosen Champs Elysees.  His thinking your buying into powerful bloodlines being a full brother to Dansili as a sire and other fabulous racemares.  Not bad at 5k, i thought he stood higher so dismissed a bit.

The sires i like so far. 

Mount Nelson to add a bit of size and get a dual purpose type into the smaller mares as advised above. 
Notnowcato for similar reasons, his 3yo's did really well this year
Sakhee has had some top class runners and again gets 3yo's if thats the way i want to play it.
Haafhd if i want to keep costs down with a bigger mare as the ones ive seen of him can be a bit smaller as someone said on here
Pastoral Pursuits if i want to chance something a bit racier and try and get a 2yo winner for the mares page looking into the future.

Still not ruling anything else out as the other owners of some of the mares havent decided either and if they need my mare to make a deal work then id have to think about their choices as well.
Report Koo.... January 13, 2013 12:31 PM GMT
I like Sakhee tho, cos hes cheaper as well  :)
Report ovalu January 13, 2013 9:37 PM GMT
Thanks kincsem and proxygene for both your suggestions, both of u mentioned Kodiac so I might look into him though to me 7.5k seems high enough for him
Report proxygene January 13, 2013 10:45 PM GMT
you might have seen my doubts about him in another thread, guess everybody else is unsure too based on the only reply, ta PM.
Report The Gotchee January 20, 2013 5:33 PM GMT
There is only one stallion to consider if you are breeding to race so don't look any further than Big Bad Bob. There is no other stallion standing in the UK or Ireland with a better win to foals ratio.

His owner covered a few of her own mares and anyone else who wanted a free cover in the 2006 2007 and 2008 breeding seasons. Most of the mares he covered during those seasons were very ordinary.The results of these coverings were so remarkable that he now stands at the Irish National Stud at a fee of 6k (Euro) I have listed below each seasons crop analysis which would embarrass a lot of high profile operations.

2007 CROP

12 Foals
12 Named
12 Runners

8 winners of 25 Races

9 Ran as 2 year olds (4 individual winners of 6 races)

2 Stakes Winners, 2 Stakes Placed, 1 Group Winner 1 Group Placed.

2008 CROP

21 Foals
20 Named
20 Runners

11 winners of 25 Races.

17 Ran as 2 year olds (6 individual winners of 7 races)

1 Stakes winner, 2 Stakes Placed, 1 Group winner, 1 Group Placed

2009 CROP

12 Foals
12 Named
12 Runners

6 Winners of 12 Races

7 Ran as 2 year olds (7 Runners 4 individual winners of 6 Races)

2 Stakes winners to date.

In Total he has sired 25 winners from 45 foals (14 Colts/Geldings and 11 Fillies/Mares)

This crop analysis indicated a number of interesting facts.
A foal by Big Bad Bob, will most likely get to the race track. They are precocious.  The fillies are arguably better than the colts,so no sad face when your mare drops a fillyHappy and you will have a near 60% chance of winning a race with your foal. From what I have seen to date his progeny seem to go on any ground although they may have a preference for good ground as well as the all weather. They are all tough and genuine.

Although these figures are based on a crop analysis of 45 foals, I believe there is enough evidence to deduce that Big Bad Bob is an exceptional sire for anyone intending to breed to race.

Is there a sire standing in the UK or Ireland with a more impressive crop analysis? If there is please let me know.
Report kincsem January 22, 2013 9:25 PM GMT
I haven't forgotten.  Over the past while I have been looking at "test-matings" of your seven mares listed against 29 stallions in the Durham, Northumberland, Yorkshire, Shropshire areas.  I've added Shropshire as there are 17 there.  Now I'm widening the stallions to 53 other UK sires in the £5k and less fee range.  The choice / quality in the original 29 was not great.  Now 29+53=82 sires.

Today I ordered the Statistical Record Annual 2012 from Weatherbys.  This will give me easy access to up-to-date sire average earnings, the real test of quality.  Book delivery will be early February.

So my suggestions will be a combination of
(1) match of the stallion and mare pedigree (my opinion) i.e. a look at the foal pedigree
(2) stallion fee against stallion quality based on AEI (average earnings index).

That is 82 sires x 7 mares = 574 possible suggestions, looked at from two angles = 1,148.  I can put a summary of my picks here.
But you might like me to send fuller comments to me your e-mail address (your choice.)  My e-mail is my Betfair username at

And after all that your chance of success is almost nil.Happy
Report The Gotchee January 22, 2013 11:46 PM GMT

The above link may be of some help to the stats men out there."There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"
Report ovalu January 24, 2013 12:09 PM GMT
Sorry for hijacking this thread again but would be interested if anyone would give me some feedback as to whether a mare I have an interest in Ever Dreaming, would be suitable as a flat broodmare, from a commercial point of view. I don't have much interest in NH racing but perhaps she's better suited to that. What I'm wondering is if I went for cheap speed such as zebedee, elzaam, dandy man etc whether there is a possibility of appealing at the sales,
The positives for me are,  Dynaformer, dam and half sister both stakes placed at 2,
the negatives are she had very poor flat form, also she ran over hurdles fences which I think can look negative on a page, also Dynaformer is more of a staying influence,
Would really appreciate any views,
Report potentialmillionaire January 24, 2013 12:43 PM GMT
ovalu. Well firstly if you want to breed from the mare by all means give it a go as it's only a decision you can make and no one should be handing out definitive answers as there is no such thing. Good broodmares come from all sorts of places in most unexpected circumstances.

However. . .

Dynaformer is a terrific sire but he has never really figured much over here in a commercial capacity. I hear what you are saying about the 2yo bit, but frankly to get that sort of pedigree on the track at 2 is probably heavily reliant on drugs and it's unlikely to get you something that looks 2yoish at the sales.
I would assume your mare is pretty big and having won over hurdles if she produces a foal with any trace of 'backward' the buyers are going to be completely unforgiving.
The page to me is one of those american black type pages that has been relatively cheaply earned. There's a lot of second rate tracks featured I'm afraid.
I am partial to buying a cheap mare as you probably know, but I'm afraid she would not be on my shopping list, and her age is not a great help either.

But if she sits back and lets the stallion dominate, then who knows. If you are a wealthy type you can see what happens. If not then I would think again.
Report ovalu January 24, 2013 9:48 PM GMT
As always thanks very much for your thoughts, the idea that drugs have influenced the precosity in the pedigree was something that hadn't occurred to me. I think I may risk losing less money if I go down the NH route(cheaper sires) . It's a funny situation but I may be stuck with this mare and have to do something with her,
Thanks again
Report potentialmillionaire January 24, 2013 10:28 PM GMT
ovalu, I've shown on here several times the extent of my ignorance when it comes to NH breeding. My knowledge of being stuck with a horse though is much more extensive Laugh

As the mare has won over hurdles though, perhaps that would be a good angle to explore.

Good luck with whatver you choose.
Report Wilycayote January 26, 2013 5:03 PM GMT
Get the feeling that Notnowcato has fallen into an "Owner Breeders'" sire, am I right?

Would anyone here be tempted to use him at a cheap price? His winners to runners is very admirable but they are just not very commercial.

Difficult for studs like New England to get behind a horse when its their only stallion.
Report truehoncho January 26, 2013 6:00 PM GMT
Hi Wilycayote,

I actually bought a mare in foal to him in his first season, unfortunately it died within 24hrs. I was quite positive about him at the time and there are far worse than him at stud. In the current commercial model he certainly doesn't have great prospects and its unlikely that owner breeders with the better mares will use him so he doesn't have much chance of progressing.

The best chance he has is as a dual purpose type (but probably only a slim chance).
Report kincsem February 4, 2013 9:02 AM GMT

I would rate the mares as follows for ease of matching their pedigrees to suitable stallions
Caranbola; Ananda Kenda; Certral / Knavesmire / Lily Lenor; Sorcellerie; Striking Cat

You asked for sires at £5k and under, preferable based in Yorkshire.   Yorkshire, Northumberland and Durham have twelve sires: Arabian Gleam (foals in 2013 so as yet unproven); Bahri (21% winners/runners, Racing Post stats) ; Desideratum (no flat runners); Ferrule (5 runners, no winners); Haafhd (30% w/r) ; Iktibas (5 runners, no winners); Josr Algarhoud (16% w/r); Millkom (16% w/r) ; Misu Bond (26% w/r); Monsieur Bond (28% w/r); Mullionmileanhour (foals in 2013 so unproven); Prime Defender (no runners yet).   This is a very small number so I extended the search.

In each case I looked at a test-mating of the proposed sire(s) and the mare.  I based my suggestions on the best test-mating pedigrees (my opinion), then discarded the sires who are unproven or who have poor winners to runners ratios.  I looked at 82 sires for each mare.  At the end of my comments I added the best local sire (my opinion) for the mare.

Ananda Kenda
Avonbridge (Runners 270, Best RPR 114,114,108, Euro stakes 15%, Flat winners/runners 29%, based in Hampshire.)
Indesatchel (Runners 99, Best RPR 106,96,88, Euro stakes 0%, Flat w/r 23%, based in Shropshire.)
Kheleyf (Runners 463, Best RPR, 119,114,113, Euro stakes 13%, Flat w/r 28%, based in Suffolk.)
Try Bahri if going to a local stallion.  Dandy Man if you want to roll the dice and gamble on an unproven sire in another country.

Motivator (Runners 225, Best RPR 121,116,113, Euro stakes 18%, Flat w/r 34%, has moved to France.)  It is a pity this sire has recently moved.  The pedigree match with Caranbola was interesting, and his stats are good.  The fee has increased for 2013.
Sixties Icon (Runners 15, Best RPR 101,89,88, Euro stakes 25%, Flat w/s    53%)  The percentages are a bit misleading due to the small data sample.
Sulamani (Runners 90, Best RPR 122,116,116, Euro stakes 29% (2 from 7), Flat w/r 31%)
Not many foals from a nine year stud career, three years in France.  The St Leger winner Mastery, is his highest ranked horse.  He is a reasonable match.
Tobougg (Runners 575, Best RPR 115, 115, 114, Euro stakes 20%, Flat w/r 23%)
Tobougg has been a little disappointing in eleven years at stud, but does produce winners.
Haafhd if going to a local stallion.

I can not find many good matches for this mare - possibles are Cockney Rebel, Compton Place.
Cockney Rebel (Runners 55, Best RPR 101, 94, 92, Euro stakes 0%, Flat w/r 31%)
Compton Place (Runners 1175, Best RPR 125, 121, 115, Euro stakes 22%, Flat w/r 24%)
This mating might produce a good filly, although possibly not as his best runners are male.
Misu Bond if going to a local stallion.

I can not find many good matches for this mare.  Both her sire and damsire are from Northern Dancer, and most sires at stud have plenty of Northern Dancer.  Sixties Icon is a possible.

Lily Lenor
I can not find many good matches for this mare – Bahri is a possible.

I can not find any good matches for this mare - possibles are Haafhd, Phoenix Reach.

Striking Cat
No recommendations.  She has three lines of Northern Dancer which would not go well with the many sires at stud descended from Northern Dancer.  Her fourth sire line is Nasrullah by Nearco, a similar sire line.

I am not going to give my pedigree reasoning for my picks.  (1) the post would be too long.  (2) it would generate too much discussion, much negative.
Report kincsem February 4, 2013 9:34 AM GMT
Some general comments on mares.

Many stallions at stud are by Sadler's Wells, Danehill, Nureyev, Danzig or their sons.  It is difficult to avoid them in a pedigree.  Too many duplications of these close up in a pedigree is considered undesirable.  My thinking is it is best to pick a mare with this in mind.  It is tempting to own a mare by Sadler's Wells or Danehill but to which sire do you send the mare?  I think it is best to pick a mare with good sires a few generations back in her pedigree, if possible avoiding Northern Dancer line sires to allow you avoid the over-duplication of Northern Dancer / Nearco.  You should design the foal's pedigree before you buy the mare imo, not buy the mare then find that her pedigree is overloaded with Northern Dancer, you are boxed in, and have limited sire choice.

This is a list sires with the highest AEI in these islands (the list may not be up-to-date for the last ten years or so, but gives a good idea of the desirable sires in pedigrees)
Alleged by Hoist The Flag; Alydar by Raise A Native; Blushing Groom by Red God; Dancing Brave by Lyphard; Danzig by Northern Dancer; El Gran Senor by Northern Dancer;
Forli by Aristophanes; Habitat by Sir Gaylord; Mill Reef by Never Bend; Mr Prospector by Raise A Native; Nijinsky by Northern Dancer; Nureyev by Northern Dancer;
Riverman by Never Bend; Roberto by Hail To Reason; Sadler's Wells by Northern Dancer; Vaguely Noble by Vienna

This is a list of the next rank of sires, slightly lower AEIs than the top list
Caerleon by Nijinsky; Chief's Crown by Danzig; Diesis by Sharpen Up; Great Nephew by Honeyway; Green Forest by Shecky Green; Ile De Bourbon by Nijinsky;
In The Wings by Sadler's Wells; Lyphard by Northern Dancer; Lypheor by Lyphard; Nashwan by Blushing Groom; Run The Gantlet by Tom Rolfe
Sharpen Up by Atan; Silver Hawk by Roberto; Sir Ivor by Sir Gaylord; Storm Bird by Northern Dancer; The Minstrel by Northern Dancer

Bold shows Northern Dancer sires, underlined shows Nearco line sires (Northern Dancer's grandsire.)
Report Prima Donna February 12, 2013 9:24 PM GMT
If it's speed you want at a very reasonable fee whilst remaining commercial(it does help)Monsieur Bond is as good a bet as you could get,popular gets great sorts and plenty of winners.Or Firebreak again gets winners and is very capable of getting some very good ones.
Report kincsem February 15, 2013 12:07 PM GMT
This morning I got The Statistical Record 2012 in the post from the nice people at Weatherbys.
I hope they do not mind me putting some stats from that fine annual on the forum.  Hopefully they might consider it free advertising.

I am listing the lifetime (to date) number of runners (not foals), and lifetime average earnings produced by the sires I mentioned in my earlier posts.  Average earnings is I understand by definition 1.0 for the horse population, and is all prizemoney / all runners.  If a sire’s runners earn more than the average his average earnings (in USA called AEI – average earnings index) are greater than 1.0.

Local stallions near Yorkshire:
Arabian Gleam: n/a (no info); Bahri: 143 runners cumulative, average earnings cumulative 1.16.; Desideratum: n/a; Ferrule: n/a; Haafhd: 195 runners ****, average earnings cumulative 0.70.; Iktibas: n/a; Josr Algarhoud: 161 ****, aei **** 0.43.; Millkom: 51, 0.79.; Misu Bond: 31, 0.25.; Monsieur Bond: 135, 0.71.; Mullionmileanhour: n/a; Prime Defender: n/a.

Ananda Kenda (mare): Avonbridge: 181, 0.58. Indesatchel: 70, 0.62. Kheleyf : 288, 0.73. Bahri: 143, 1.16. Dandy Man: n/a.
Caranbola (mare): Motivator: 143, 0.86.; Sixties Icon: 17, 1.15.; Sulamani: 54, 1.10.; Mastery: n/a.; Tobougg: 319, 0.56.; Haafhd: 195, 0.70.
Certral (mare): Cockney Rebel: 43, 0.47.; Compton Place: 440, 0.95.; Misu Bond: 31, 0.25.;
Knavesmire (mare): Sixties Icon: 17, 1.15.
Lily Lenor (mare): Bahri: 143, 1.16.
Sorcellerie (mare): Haafhd: 195, 0.70.; Phoenix Reach: 41, 0.31.

I have these figures for great sires:
Sadler’s Wells: 2193, 3.02; Nijinsky: 851, 4.71; Mr Prospector: 1178, 3.98; Bold Ruler: 356, 7.73; Northern Dancer: 636, 5.10.

The breeding season starts today, 15th February.  Good luck.
Report kincsem February 15, 2013 12:08 PM GMT
**** is c u m  ..... an abbreviation for cumulative
Report Koo.... February 20, 2013 10:40 PM GMT
Thanks to anyone who offered any advice, i read everything and tried to take every piece of advice on board.

Basically so far all thats been decided is that ;

Certral and Lily Lenor will visit Haafhd. 
Hes located within 2 miles which made things easier to decide on, my only issie was the size for Certral and Haafhd.  But i prob thought she looked smaller compared to Brians other race horses, compared to other mares at the stud, she doesnt look too bad.

Ananda Kanda is prob going to rest this year so we get a chance of an early covering next year.  Shes due to foal to Haafhd in April

Sorcellerie is actually back in training, i couldnt decide if i liked the thought off breeding off a 3yo so i got a 2nd opinion from a different vet who said her knees were fine to start back with.  Cantering along nicely, lets hope Elsie was right and that shes capable of winning races.

Of the others, well they arent mine to make decisions on, but i didnt want to wait any longer with Certral. 

Oh and the missus is happy, Dream Win is going to be a daddy soon.  Will have one more run, then will stand and cover a few homebreds from a trainer local to us.  He might get to see to Striking Cat as the other is happy to give her away for free to us for him to have a go on.

If anything else comes to hand will update the thread.   

Fingers crossed now that Certrals half brother by New Approach wins the dewhurst and the Selkirk half sisters to Sorcellerie produce the goods over the next few seasons.
Report Prima Donna February 23, 2013 7:54 PM GMT
Monsieur Bond's daughter Ladies are Forever wins today a listed race over 6f and does it nicely too,another filly by him wins as well yesterday over 5f.At his fee he's great value and commercial,a sire on the up.Very comparable to Compton Place just his fillies are better than Compton's and he represents better value for money too!
Report Koo.... January 18, 2015 8:33 PM GMT
A quick update to anyone interested at all.

Got 3 mares currently, did try to go to HQ and look at some more but they were withdrawn sadly.  Had a few quid to spend, but was very specific in the ones i liked so didnt go and just try and buy anything.  Hence Im still with the ones i had before.

Ananda Kanda currently has a 2yo filly by Haafhd in training, not the biggest but well put together and might make a 2yo.  AK is currently in foal to Sulamani and will then go and visit Farrh, as we felt like taking a chance having had time to see the first foal looked ok.

Sorcellerie is in foal to Haafhd, not decided yet if she has enough quality to continue with, her siblings that have raced in the last 2 seasons have shown very little.  Will make a final decision once i get to see the foal.  If shes covered again, I wont be paying alot regardless on the foal.

Certral is in foal to Delegator, was quite a late cover so Ive not rushed to organise a sire for this years cover yet.  How late is too late for most people, I think shes due to foal early May.

I did have Impeccable Guest who has had a nice foal by our own Stallion Dream Win.  Since then though we gave found good homes for both mum and dad.

I cant imagine any being sold as yearlings just yet, so any future covers dont have to ve commerically driven.  Maybe once, hopefully anyways, thrown a winner, I might start thinking of selling on.

So, far no real panic moments apart from the invoices :)
Report Benkers February 17, 2015 9:30 PM GMT
Theres alot of stamina influences in the pedigree of Sorcellerie....duplications of Shirley Heights on both sides of her pedigree and being out of an Hernando mare with the second dam being by Nashwan your best chance is to try breed some speed back into the mare.

She has little maternal strength in her 7 gen make up so you should try breeding some speed influences into her as she has a nice pedigree, blue hen damline which traces to the top class female lines of Carpet Slipper etc..

Burwaaz is a new sire up your way, he is a better mating than Haafhd. Concentrate on stallions containing Kris, Pivotal (tough to find in a cheap stallion). Heeraat at Mickley is good value, not the best mating for her but offers something different.

Good luck
Report Young Broodmare Filly Wanted February 19, 2015 6:46 PM GMT
What mare are you looking to be covered?
Report Young Broodmare Filly Wanted February 19, 2015 6:46 PM GMT
What mare are you looking to be covered?
Report Koo.... February 21, 2015 11:09 AM GMT
Im about sorted for this season thanks, this thread started a couple of years ago when i wanted some opinions on sires. 
Got one additional mare to the ones posted above, and shes called Perfect Persuasion who cost a few quid but hopefully she produces a nice foal next year.  She goes to Medicean i think
Ananda Kanda has foaled now to Sulamani and the foal looks a nice bit bigger than last years as well as being a colt. 
Sorcellerie looks enormous and if she produces a decent sized foal she might be given another chance with a cheapish cover.
Certral has a late cover and i cant decide whether to let her have the season off and be ready for an early cover the year after.
Report Koo.... March 15, 2015 8:46 PM GMT
Bought a new mare, Run Fat Lass Run.  Just looking for a sire and cant decide if im mad at looking at Orientor, will prob enquire into Swiss Spirit as well.  Might take 2 wherever i go to see if they'll deal :)
Report potentialmillionaire March 15, 2015 10:28 PM GMT
Koo, 2 right sires at full price will always be a better deal than 2 wrong ones with a price reduction!
Report Koo.... March 15, 2015 10:36 PM GMT
I pick the sires i like first then hope they knock a few quid.  Hope they dont read this tho.   Dont think id use Orientor, just in the off chance i do sell something.  Shame he hasnt had many chances, but going to stud as a old stallion never would have helped anyone.
Report Formtwist March 15, 2015 10:36 PM GMT
Koo, I saw Orientor years ago at a stallion parade and I really liked him. Not been the right breeding for my mares, and upper Scotland not the best location either, but you have a mare of unfashionable lines anyway so you will struggle so sell, whatever the sire you use. If you are happy to race the foal then for what it's worth I'd say Orientor's track success is way above expectations for the mares he has covered and he'd be much more of a fun choice than Swiss Spirit.
Report Koo.... March 15, 2015 10:41 PM GMT
I wont be selling anything yet anyways.  Hes done well with what chances he had.  I stumbled on him again as my mares dam is a half sister to Needwood Blade who beat Orientor in a Doncaster maiden rated about 57.  So it got me thinking if it was a quirky twist of fate.  I might enquire on the price and go from there anyways.
Report Koo.... March 15, 2015 10:55 PM GMT
Looking for potential new mares, made me find SAFIRA MENINA as a potential improver once she got a handicap mark.  If she isnt capable of winning off 60 then they might as well have sold her at tatts ??   Hopefully she wins before too long as I'll have to back her a few times.  Runs tomorrow 5pm Chelmsford fwiw
Report Wilycayote March 16, 2015 12:45 PM GMT
Even if you might not be planning on selling, I was always taught to keep the selling option open, as you never know what the future holds financially. If you go for a horse like Orientor, you might have a bit of fun but you're very unlikely to have something valuable. A horse like Swiss Spirit can always keep open the possibility of a good pay day if its ever needed.
Report Koo.... March 16, 2015 3:33 PM GMT
I get what you mean, dont think id consider a cover unless it was a maiden mare and keeping the costs down.  Id defo consider selling produce onces id got the mare a winner on the track so im confident id want to keep the first produce or two so i can ensure she gets a good chance as possible of having a winner.
Report Formtwist April 4, 2015 11:11 AM BST
Koo, out of interest which stallion(s) did you decide on in the end?
Report Koo.... April 4, 2015 10:32 PM BST
Right then, its a fair list now im acquiring.  Good job I havent reached premium charge level yet!!

Certral - Kuroshio
Ananda Kanda - Faarh
Sorcellerie - Cityscape
Run Fat Lass Run - Delegator
Perfect Pursuasion - Medicean

New mare alert - NH MARE ALERT AS WELL

Lily Lenor - Malinas

I think thats the lot.  The only upside to quite a few mares is they are alot cheaper to keep than alot of horses in training.  Although Run Fat Lass Run might come back in training as she was hard fit when arriving.

Regards mating plans, I must admit i blinded myself with science, going through countless stats and finding plusses and minus for most matings.  So in the end i just dismissed the ones i really couldnt have and then went a bit with pure luck.
Report truehoncho April 5, 2015 11:14 AM BST
Hi Koo,

if i was lucky enough to be an owner breeder I wouldn't be too keen to use the likes of Kuroshio, Cityscape or Delegator. You are just in the business of proving stallions for other people if you use them. I would prefer proven stallions that are unfashionable. I would even look at some of those well bred Derby types that end up in Coolmore's NH yard without been given a chance at the flat bred mares. Medicean is a really good choice that if you ever got a decent filly from him could make a great broodmare with Machiavellian and Storm Bird close up in the pedigree.

Good Luck
Report ONSLOW1974 May 2, 2015 3:33 PM BST
Well done Koo & friends with Balty Boys, the rubys are on you toniteExcited
Report Koo.... May 2, 2015 3:46 PM BST
His half sister was in the sales yesterday but was withdrawn.  I have his 2yo half brother by Canford Cliff's so lets hope he can match his acheivements
Report Koo.... May 2, 2015 3:46 PM BST
Cheers as well Happy
Report ONSLOW1974 May 2, 2015 4:02 PM BST
Enjoy the moment, must be a fantastic feeling!!
G/L with the 2 year old
Report Koo.... September 20, 2015 10:06 PM BST
Need some more sires for next year, ended up as mentioned before picking rather randomly, but hey who knows if thats not as bad a selection statergy as it seems.
A friend suggestion Mount Nelson and the Archipenko's might not be bad for my type.  Solid sires who get winners and dont break the bank rather than the first season brigade.

Anyone any views for next years sires, away from the first season ones as there are a few nice threads going up which havent been unnoticed.

All this years foals look decent, a lovely big Sulamani out of a winning 2yo and winning hurdler.  And a very strong delegator.  5 mares in foal, sadly the half sister to Connecticut was a late foaling so we only had 1 chance to cover her and she didnt catch so we start next year nice and early with her.  Be nice to get her in foal, her foal is nice enoug but as hes upto 3 months behind its sometimes for me to judge how forward he looks for his age.

Ive not that much interest in having loads of horses in training, so the mares keep me occupied and something to look forward to
Report Formtwist September 21, 2015 11:19 AM BST
A wet Monday is a good time to cheer ourselves up with a bit of planning for the mares isn't it? Archipenko is on my radar as well, he's shaping up to be a really good sire and gets a high percentage winning at 2 which young mares need to get them off the ground. I haven't seen a Mount Nelson that wasn't big and took time to mature, but they are often good if you have the patience. Thinking Lanwades again, both Sir Percy and Aussie Rules are good established sires at a fair price. Away from Newmarket Sixties Icon still gets his winners when the rain is around, though his published fee seems a little high, and there is the reliable Monsieur Bond in the North. Firebreak gets a good one most years from few chances. I've only covered England , know that's where you are based and use the stallions. There is Russian Roulette value in chancing a second, third or fourth season sire of course but I'll not suggest any to you as others on this forum will have better insight into them than me. Good luck and let us know what you finally decide in due course.
Report potentialmillionaire September 21, 2015 1:49 PM BST
Sir Percy Sir Percy Sir Percy was my initial thought too.

I'm even wondering if he might actually become a bit commercial this year in which case I fear La Rausing might get a bit fruity with the fee.
Report proxygene September 21, 2015 2:16 PM BST
Temper that statement with the chances of me being in the right place at the right time. Cue an empty mare by Oct 1st.
Report potentialmillionaire September 21, 2015 2:51 PM BST
Ah, maybe time for a rethink Laugh
Report Koo.... September 22, 2015 2:28 PM BST
My mate has his first homebred runner here at Beverley.  Hold On Magnolia, fingers crossed for a nice run.
Report Somerset Sam September 22, 2015 3:08 PM BST

Sep 22, 2015 -- 2:28PM, Koo.... wrote:

My mate has his first homebred runner here at Beverley.

Report Somerset Sam September 22, 2015 3:09 PM BST
He should be delighted by that run Koo
Report Koo.... September 22, 2015 6:11 PM BST
Yeah, we keep the mares and foals all at the same place.  Convenient for me less so for him, so in a way I doubley hoped he ran well for him.  Really nice that they produced a decent runner with the first one they prepared away from their own.  Lets hope he can win before too long and that my 2yo stays sound to run later in the year.
Report Koo.... September 25, 2015 12:52 PM BST
Also bought one out of a seller the other day.  Legal Art.  Looks quite nice Brian says, just hope a change of scenary means she can show us a fair bit more on the track and knock off a maiden before the end of the year
Report Koo.... October 4, 2015 8:31 PM BST
Nothing sorted yet, but a quick look at some STATS and I cant really use Monsieur Bond as they are a bit slow to mature, only 5% as 2yo's in the last 5 years.  Whereas Haafhd gets a respectable 11%, therefore for the ones I dont want to travel far or spend alot, Haafdh will be number one choice.  Going up market, I have a gut feeling Dream Ahead might produce some really talented horses.  A few might be a bit headstrong from what I see at the track but talented like himself.  If he does make it to the higher echelons, then its best I take a punt now, so I will probably bite the bullet and try and send him 1 or 2 this year.  Those are just my early thoughts really.  Going to start looking at the mares in the HIT book to see if there are any stand out fillies in there that might be in my price range.

Tried to buy a Sir Percy at 40k over in Ireland so will consider using him, or I shouldn't have bid.  Lots mentioned before will be thought of long and hard such as Mount Nelson, SP, Aussie Rules Archipenko.  All get their fair share of winners on my basic stats.  Sir Percys with some dig in the ground seem a irresistible combination.  Might breed one with a very strong propensity for juice, but least you know where your likely to race.
Report truehoncho October 13, 2015 8:15 AM BST
After looking at quite a few Casamento's over the last couple of weeks I would consider getting your mare to Ireland Koo. They really are nice types and I would be suprised iof he didn't turn out ok. Also his pedigree is really nice for a cheap stallion and a filly by him could be bred with if you fancied it.
Report Koo.... October 13, 2015 8:58 PM BST
I bought a nice Sir prancelot and was told by a few that many of his looked the part.  Ive only got 2 I can send over the ireland as Im not keen on sending mares in foal. 
Ive pencilled 2 in for Haafhd and cant find much fault with him in regards he gets lots of winners at a very good strike rate at 2yo and 3yo.  Takes some of the romance out of the equation, but cuts the cost as i can walk in there easily, so whats stopping me sending the entire lot ?
Report logikal December 21, 2015 9:37 PM GMT
Hey koo noticed you mentioned swiss spirit earlier and you'd enquire.

What did you think when you asked, did something put you off as guess you never used him?

His foals seemed to have sold relatively well.

Haafhd looks a decent choice with the strike rate you mentioned, but I thought with his credentials he might just have thrown a top class one by now.
Report truehoncho December 22, 2015 3:23 PM GMT
Hi Koo,

did you see that Casamento is now at Newmarket.
Report Koo.... December 23, 2015 12:41 PM GMT
I thought Id be all sorted out before now.  I did start looking but didnt finalise anything as fees hadnt all being announed.  Will look again at Casamento, my gut didnt fancy him having being stung twice with shamardals but that shouldnt affect my decisions now really.

Since the last update, Ananda Kanda 'absorbed' this years Faarh which was annoying as its a year wasted.  Certral is having a biopsy this week to make sure she wont have any problems for this year.  Everything else seems fine for this year though and just to prove it can be done my mate Dan managed a 2yo hombred winner yesterday with Hold On Magnolia.

My 2yo hombred this year has gone off her food so we'll end up racing next year.  Never even got close enough to name her but she has no major issues so hopefully she'll take her work better as she gets bigger and stronger.

Now weve a few days off from studying the form, Im hoping to have a fairly good idea where i stand with stallions.

List of mares for covering this year.

Perfect Persuasion - in foal to Lethal Force
Ananda Kanda - Lost this years cover well into Novemeber
Certral - Not in foal so hopefully a fairly early cover, need a good fertile stallion to make sure
Sorcellerie - In foal to Cityscape with a nice strong Haafhd foal
Run Fat Lass Run - In foal to Delegator
Legal Art - Want to race in foal, shows plenty more than her mark at home so surely she can win a couple. More tempted to stay local so its easier to keep her fitness levels up between covers. 
Lily Lenor - Produces big foals every year, maybe too big for the flat so shes in foal to Malinas.  Tempted to go back to middle distance flat cover though, has a more racy looking Haafdh being broken in.

The numbers soon add up, but Ive got next to no runners these days and Balty Boys pays for himself and a few of the also rans.  So its wasnt too draining on resources last year.

Thats about everything I think, I would have bought Balty Boys half sister at the sales had i remember she was going through the ring that day, but if i do look to buy any more mares I need to start working out which ones of the above are expendable.

7 mares ffs  where did that come from.
Report truehoncho December 23, 2015 12:56 PM GMT
Hi Koo,

BB was one of my favorites this year. I backed him at Newmarket 1st time up at 10-1 and he paid for the whole meeting with a little left over. He looked really good and forward that day.
Well done to your mate. I put a homebred 2yo in training this year and was pretty confident it would win as a 2yo but the trainer only ran it once and gave a lot of excuses, she will be out 1st week January and will win soonish but I really wanted a 2yo winner on the mares page. He won't be getting another one.

Good luck with all you covers I will use Fast Company but after that i'm not sure. Probably Casamento and maybe even Cityscape.
Report Young Broodmare Filly Wanted December 24, 2015 5:31 PM GMT
Mr Medici fits local cheap middle distance flat horse.  Made his debut as a 2 year old in Ireland in April also
Report Koo.... January 2, 2016 8:33 PM GMT
I wrote it all down the other day.  Was keen on Equiano, Haafhd and Cityscape.  Had one other sire written down but have lost my pad of paper.  Napping my 2yo has destroyed it
Report truehoncho January 2, 2016 9:09 PM GMT
it must have been Casamento Koo. What about Lucarno, or is that just too far into the twighlight zone?
Report truehoncho January 2, 2016 9:10 PM GMT
..... and Cityscape is on my list too. How about a match in 2018?
Report truehoncho January 2, 2016 9:11 PM GMT
ok 2019
Report Koo.... January 2, 2016 9:23 PM GMT
It could have been Fast Company or Casemento.  Been trying to upload a pic of my homebred but cant work it out.  Stallion was my 70 rated Dream Win.   Quite a nice type as well.
Report Koo.... January 2, 2016 9:24 PM GMT
It uploaded fine to twitter, if anyone wants to go scroll through a few pages to see the now 2yo in question.
Report Koo.... January 2, 2016 9:26 PM GMT

hopefully that works.  Mare was very ordinary, a dual juvenile hurdle winnner.  I should have let him cover some of mine, but it takes long to see what they look like, you dont think its worth bothering.
Report Koo.... January 17, 2016 7:38 PM GMT
Will this post disappear into the abyss
Report the dealer January 17, 2016 7:39 PM GMT
unlesss it keeps getting bumped to the top it will but shouldnt be that hard to find
Report Koo.... January 17, 2016 7:42 PM GMT
Couldnt see the bloodstock forum, it disappeared from the new form a while but remain in classic.  Then that disappeared, a shame its gone as there were some contributions i liked to read up on and cant see people from there using the main form as threads drop down so quick in here
Report the dealer January 17, 2016 7:42 PM GMT
good luck with the home bred, looks good   Grin
Report the dealer January 17, 2016 7:43 PM GMT
there have been a few posts about it going one of the better forums
Report onlooker January 17, 2016 8:21 PM GMT
I am assuming that this thread was originally on Bloodstock & Breeding Forum - given Koo's recent postings ...

Koo.... 17 Jan 16 19:38 
Will this post disappear into the abyss

Koo.... 17 Jan 16 19:42 
Couldnt see the bloodstock forum, it disappeared from the new form a while but remain in classic.  Then that disappeared, a shame its gone as there were some contributions i liked to read up on and cant see people from there using the main form as threads drop down so quick in here

How has it been brought across to Horse Racing Forum? - or ...

Have the Betfair moderators transferred it across - something which I very much doubt.
Report the dealer January 17, 2016 8:32 PM GMT
looks like koo brought it over
Report onlooker January 17, 2016 8:42 PM GMT
But, how, though?

If you Cut & Paste a thread - it does NOT reproduce in the EXACT SAME FORMAT as the original, when you re-post it.

Maybe he used his 'status' to get Betfair to transfer it.
Report the dealer January 17, 2016 8:43 PM GMT
ah good point
Report onlooker January 18, 2016 2:35 PM GMT

Can you enlighten us on the above postS - re: Thread transfer from Bloodstock & Breeding?
Report Koo.... January 18, 2016 2:58 PM GMT
if u search for the old threads they are there, i just posted a reply and waited to see where it went
Report Deltâ January 18, 2016 3:08 PM GMT
I just replied to an old one on there and it just topped on B & R forum!
Report doncaster rover January 19, 2016 12:04 PM GMT
Not a owner breeder but was posting on that now defunct forum about my two yearlings now 2 year olds I know some were interested in my Casamento topic ,I can now tell those that read the post that I have named the filly of which I own 25% CASTLE HILL CASSIE,T Royal applause Colt has not been named yet and has been gelded
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