Frankel made Cirrus look like a milk float at the 1f marker

Frankel the best ever. Pox Doctor should see one.

Thanks Fig - can't remember Henry's pair Faraway Dancer & Mashkour meeting twice (Derby as well)

brigust1

brigust1
20 Oct 12 16:36
Joined:
07 Dec 01
| Topic/replies: 4,637 | Blogger: brigust1's blog
Dancing Brave would have absolutely mullered him. Over to Phil Smith.


Would Dancing Brave or for that matter Brigadier Gerard have mullered the horse that won the QEII today by 11L.

Do you mean the horse that beat Side Glance a fast diminishing head? Absolutely certainly. You obviously think easily beating a horse whose best known form is on fast ground is a benchmark SP. Pull yourself together.

Maybe we should judge Brigadier Gerard on his 1 length win over Gold Rod in a soft ground Eclipse?

Or the Short Head win over Rarity in the Champion!

Or maybe you mean the horse that beat Caspar Netscher 2 lengths or was beaten by Zoffany? Is that the horse you mean SP?

The Form of the older generation in the last two years has been outstanding ,the performance of different mares of that year beyond belief,the range of Frankel over varied distances should not be overated,and the form did work out. These factors do impress.

Brig, Excelebration was hammered in the QEII because he was asked to go with Frankel, the record shows that when horses take him on they get "mullered", to coin a phrase.

You brought it up SP, I didn't. And it was the Queen Anne.

Or his defeat by Roberto

brigust1
20 Oct 12 17:52
Joined:
07 Dec 01
| Topic/replies: 4,639 | Blogger: brigust1's blog
Or maybe you mean the horse that beat Caspar Netscher 2 lengths or was beaten by Zoffany? Is that the horse you mean SP?


Yes that's right the horse that is unbeaten since his debut in races where Frankel didn't turn up and has now won the 3 most important G1 mile races in Europe, thats the one I mean.

Or the 10 lengths he beat Gold Rod in the Lockinge, or the 11 lengths he beat him in the Goodwood Mile, or the 8 lengths he beat Dictus in the QE11 or the 6 lengths he beat Sparkler or the 3 lengths he beat Mill Reef or the 5 lengths he beat Steel Pulse (giving him 19lbs).

Or his defeat by Roberto where he beat the Arc winner by 17 lengths. 

You don't know who was best, I don't knoow who was best and neither does Phil Smith or Timeform. You only agree with them today because they agree with you, when they don't agree with you then you will rubbish them.

Or maybe SP, the 5 length defeat of Faraway Son who was unbeaten after BG beat him winning the best mile races in France. Yes that one.

Brigust, some people believe he is the best they've seen, it is called an opinion, you believe he isn't, also an opinion. It is only you that disapproves of others not sharing your opinion, and then goes on at extraordinary lengths to prove them wrong.

And the reason I disagree with Phil Smith is he usually talks utter bollocks.

Sorry Figgis but, as usual, it was you who pulled me up on my opinion not the other way around. And it was SP who brought up Brigadier Gerard I didn't. So stop twisting things around. I have always criticised Timeform for their opinion because they are a commercial organisation. And if you bring up contrary reasons why shouldn't I respond?

I didn't pull you up on your opinion, it was your lack of reasoning. You chose to judge Frankel on today's race when it obviously wasn't his best form and saying Dancing Brave would have mullered the field when his only soft ground form was moderate.

Someone mentioned a 139 rating by t/f for todays race?

Suggesting DB would have mullered CDA I believe is true, I even qualified it, not just on this thread, where I pointed out that CDA's defeat of Hunters Light was not as good as it looked because HL had been beaten by 18 lengths by Sea Moon the last Gr2 he ran in on rain softened ground.

And how does that, in any way whatsoever, explain how DB would've handled the soft ground today? I remember connections blaming the soft ground for his ordinary display in the Craven.

Ilikewavingatwhatever

yep id agree with that.

wouldve have gone close to winning the arc.

connections were right to duck it.

If my memory is correct, you were the guy who slated connections constantly when they announced they were bypassing the Arc.

brigust1
20 Oct 12 18:02
Joined:
07 Dec 01
| Topic/replies: 4,643 | Blogger: brigust1's blog
Or maybe SP, the 5 length defeat of Faraway Son who was unbeaten after BG beat him winning the best mile races in France. Yes that one.


Just how good was Faraway Son in 1971. He won 2 G1's, the Moulin beating Gold Rod a one time G1 winner from over 40 starts, Faraway Son won the Foret beating Bold Minstrel (never won a Group race) and Calahorra (never won above G3), he won G3 Rond Point from Boberic (placed twice in G3 company), he won G3 Prix Jonchere and G3 Port Maillot from My Swallow who was an outstanding colt at 2 but never progressed and wasn't as good at 3, he got beat in G3 Prix d'Evry by Dictus who was a high class miler that won one G1 and a couple of G3's but wasn't anything special.

So Faraway Son was a good horse in 1971 maybe the best miler that ran in France that season but similar ability to Dictus and Sparkler. I know it difficult to compare form 40 years apart but on balance I would think Excelebration form is of a higher calibre than Faraway Son.

You carefully omitted the fact fact that he also won the French 2000gns but was disqualified. He beat Caro who won the Harcourt, Ganay and Prix Dollar. Was 2nd to Mill Reef in the Eclipse and 4th in the Arc. Or Bold Fascinator who won the French 1000Gns. And the 6 length defeat of My Swallow after MS had cantered home in his Guineas trial and was only beaten three quarters of a length by Mill Reef in the 2000Gns. Or the fact that Timeform said 'in the 5 top class races Faraway Son ran in between June and the end of October he was only beaten once'. Maybe FS's form is not, in your opinion, better than Excelebration (I think it is  much better) BG slammed him by 5 lengths on soft ground and gave Sparkler 7lbs and beat him 6 lengths in course record time.
Opportunistic SP.

Just my opinion Figgis.

And SP when BG won the Champion Stakes beating Rarity on heavy ground he beat Welsh Pageant onto third. Welsh Pageant had won 6 of the 8 races he had run in previously including the Lockinge (twice), the Queen Anne by 5 lengths, the QE11 beating Humble Duty (7 length winner of the 1000 Gns and winner of the Sussex Stakes) and the Hungerford Stakes. He had just run over 10 furlongs for the first time when finishing an unlucky third in Mill Reef's Eclipse behind Caro who was the French Champion. In case you wondered.

Didnt Prince Abdullah say that Frankel was better than Dancing Brave?

Frankel was clearly not ideally suited by the race conditions today - a combination of horrible ground and a stiff 1m2f, yet he was still able to beat the next best horse in training and defending Champion Stakes winner, plus a KG and Eclipse winner who both like those conditions, so it was a very decent and commendable performance. Would Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Sea The Stars, Dancing Brave, Sea Bird, Nashwan etc have beaten CDA today - probably yes. Would they have beaten him any more more impressively on that ground - doubtful?

Over a mile or an easy 10f on good to fast ground Frankel was exceptional.

themightymac




Date Joined: 05 Apr 02
Add contact | Send message
20 Oct 12 18:23
Joined:


05 Apr 02
| Topic/replies: 3,538 | Blogger: themightymac's blog



Ilikewavingatwhatever

yep id agree with that.

wouldve have gone close to winning the arc.

connections were right to duck it.

If my memory is correct, you were the guy who slated connections constantly when they announced they were bypassing the Arc.



you are indeed right mighty mac, they were right. I thought he couldve won it, i was, he'd have been mullered!

guess i justwanted to see him tested. turns out we just had to see him run under conditions that didnt 100% suit him (for once) to see him look quite ordinary.

great champ all the same, one of the greats.

not a patch on sea the stars, wouldnt have won the derby or arc. brilliant but limited.

Quite ordinary?

ILWAB, why do you think he would have been "mullered" on today's showing? The trip? Or do you think Solemia's form there was far better than today's form? I certainly can't agree with the second option.

How was today's performance ordinary? He lost 3-4 lengths at the start and was cruising on the bridle 1-2f out against a very talented horse. Ok he only went away 2 lengths when shaken up but it was very soft ground and harder to quicken.

Dodging the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe was sensible.  The extra distance, heavy ground, and sods law a horrible draw would have beaten Frankel.
Today he did as much as you could expect.  He was at his maximum distance (so far), on ground that suited his main rival, and he still won.  Losing a few lengths at the start was neither here nor there as he wasn't going to be setting the pace.  Frankel didn't dominate today.  It was a race.
I bet Cirrus Des Aigles and Pastorius.
The reason: asking Frankel to do what he had never done before, win on soft/heavy.

Frankel has the cruising speed and mid-race fractions to overcome any draw in the Arc, the heavy ground 1m 2f to 1m 4f would have been the only question mark on him.

The Arc is a unique race, on a unique bias track and often ran in unique underfoot conditions, it would have been the acid test imo.

yeah apologies, i didnt mean frankel is a 'quite ordinary' horse. i just thought it was interesting that this was arguably the first race where frankel was actually asked to race outside of his ideal conditions and he looked v beatable

imo.



still deserves his place alongside the greats.

not the best ive seen tho.

he dodged too many races, derby, arc for example. had he lined up in the derby i dont believe he'd have won. i think this shows his limitations. i mean u can put it down to an inability to stay but i see that as a limitation. esp when u have a middle distance pedigree.

i was v impressed with his performance today btw.

i dont think mising the break gave him much of a disadvantage and if u that is being used as a reason as to why he didnt win by 5L then your grasping at straws imo.

good trainer

All this talk about the going being in CDA's favour and not Frankels is rubbish. The going was soft, heavy in places on the round course but near good up the straight. That half suited CDA and half suited Frankel. Unless Henry's claim that Frankel should be even better on soft ground. And even Richard Hughes said in his column that where some build up talk has been about Frankel being vulnerable on heavy ground he thinks from his experience with Frankel's dam quite the opposite.

So Frankel may well have been favoured by the conditions as much as CDA. He came there cruising like he usually does and the home straight ground was perfect so not very valid excuses I suggest.

ILWAB - you're a smashing poster, and one of my 'pals' on here but please STFU with this crusade!
Sea The Stars wouldn't be in the same league as Frankel up to 10f...at 12f on heavy ground he'd have a squeak (as a guaranteed stayer) even though he was never thought to be too fond of soft ground.

He was withdrawn from the Irish Derby as just the prospect of soft ground terrified his trainer!
He DID NOT have the speed to even hallucinate about a crack at sprinting (however glum the opposition) like Frankel or Dancing Brave and that's why he's 'languishing' in third place for me.

I must reiterate that Sea The Stars ranks number three for me (in 34 years following the sport) so don't think I don't rate him...I'd be a fool to think he showed his maximum in his performances...there was plenty left in the tank!

Youmzain's proximity is a joke, but if you want to dig a bit deeper...collateral formlines involving a solid yardstick in Rip Van Winkle don't put Sea The Stars in the same parish as Frankel!

Deep down you KNOW this, but your frustration at how Frankel's been campaigned has clouded your judgement...I'm sure we can agree to differ in our views without resorting to childish insults even though there's fcuk all you can crab Frankel for

Brigust - that's balls mate and damaging your credibility on here!

I can't (readily) recall such a quality performer that I can remember being SO suited by heavy conditions as CDA!
Selkirk was another but probably a few pounds behind CDA.

sts wouldve won a july cup if he wished.

horse vowed never to tasted defeat after his maiden and he didnt.

his arc win was spectacular winning effortlessly. wouldve picked CAD up and carried him over 10f, frankel was running in fumes at the end, sts wouldve cantered by him, relentless champion and a better 3 yr old by a distance than frankel.

yep

NG I suggest you look a little closer at the form book. STS beat Twice over 17 lengths, Frankel beat him 13 lengths. Then look through Snow Fairy, Vision Detat etc with CDA and STS. I think you will find STS comes out in front  every time.

And the ground wasn't heavy it was soft with heavy patches. Up the home straight where they were together the ground definitely wasn't heavy so it suited Frankel.

When Excelebration bolts up by six lengths in the USA, just what will the Frankel haters have to clutch at?

A great horse sts but never hit 140 twice and didnt retire unbeaten

CDA would never come close to beat sts over any distance.


sariska would beat CDA in heavy no bother. just look at her irish oaks, mesmerising.

Brigust - I know you're knowledgeable but I DESPISE this 17 length business...I much prefer to rate horses when they've RAN THEIR RACES and not 'free-wheeled' home!

I think it's madness to rate horses PRECISELY on such margins...I much prefer KNOWING a horse has performed at its peak!

Sariska really was mesmerising that day but I've seen some amazing performances on heavy ground before...you might laugh at this but a peak Midday against a peak Sariska and I'm with Midday (only just) as I think she could DEFINITELY have won a group one against colts on her best form!

The formbook gives me a good argument but as usual...it's all about opinions

but sariska beat midday everytime she left the gates. how can u prefer her? even over 10 on gf sariska won and she was defo a 12 horse and incred on heavy.

sariska defo the better horse unless u wanna completely ignore the form of course.

I'm sure I saw someone crabbing the winning distance on this thread. The horse won as it liked, on ground that would blunt the speed of most horses that could win group 1's at distances under a mile.

He was fully in command at the finish and couldn't be expected to quicken any better than that. A superb performance.

NG the Breeders Cup could be interesting. Wise Dan beat Cityscape by 4.25 lengths getting 3lbs and Excelebration beat him 3 lengths at levels. Interesting.

ILWAB - ever heard of improvement with age?

I hope you don't think I'm ignorant of what the form-book indicates

youre talking about imponderales, im simply looking at both horses and how once always beat the other.

i assume you would also say goldikova is better than zarkava then.

Why do you say Frankel was on fumes? You're talking like he was getting caught near the finish when he actually pulled away. He never looked like getting beat at any stage.

and no i never head of improvement with age

Could be Brig...very interesting night ahead in a fortnight

I DESPERATELY WANT Excelebration's rating to be unequivocally hoisted on the back of his post-Frankel achievements

I really didn't think he was as good as he's looked since avoiding the monster but now I'm getting confident!

i agree gcw he was never getting beat. im just saying he looked beatable today. cda is a v good horse, nothing else.

I think comparing Zarkova & Goldikova on their 3yo careers is doing Goldikova an injustice...there's NO DOUBT who was superior in the classic generation!

BUT...Zarkova fcuks off and Goldikova flourishes...how do you rate them?
It's all very subjective

ILWAB - CDA isn't in the same class as something like Mtoto but still...he's a cracking yardstick with his favourite conditions, and he's battered a quality colt in Nathaniel AGAIN!

And all of this talk about the going. If you look at Nathaniel's finishing position compared with his defeat of St Nicholas Abbey and the distance Frankel beat St Nicholas Abbey. Then take into consideration Nathaniel improved a little (less than a length)on the softer ground than the King George and St Nicholas Abbey improved a little (less than a length)in the King George over the longer trip then Frankel ran to form.

oh indeed it is, just dont know how anyone could have sariska over midday given sariska beat her everytime even when midday had her optimum conditions over 10f on gf and on sofy ground over 12 sariska beat her on the bridle ...literally. u talk about the forum but u blatantly ignore the fact that horse A has beaten horse B everytime theyve met but if they met at their peak then youd prefer horse B, interesting angle i must say

They were always wary of soft ground for Dancing Brave. They can`t always produce 7L victories especially in bad ground against horses that excel in bad ground. Its not realistic.

Dancing Brave would struggle to quicken in bad ground. Its not a negative its just biologically not realistic for horses with great stride actions to enjoy their wheels spinning on softer ground.

Sir Henry said soft ground would be no problem. He even thought he may improve for it. How do you know he hasn't?

of course sariska might not leave the stalls, then midday would have a significant advantage

sariska couldnt beat fame and glory. he was an excellent 3 and 4 yr old. shouldve retired him then.

i still think that was a good season. cavalry man was a good horse with fabre, slaughterd CDA in france.

and i meant midday over sariska of course

ILWAB - it's a bold statement from me (I must concede) but Midday strikes me as a slightly superior performer to the recalcitrant Sariska.

She should have bladdered St Nicholas Abbey in that Coronation Cup (with a competent ride) and would have been better if kept in training another year - I know there's bias there but she was a real favourite of mine, whilst Sariska 'soured' to a degree that's rarely seen.

bold indeed as all evidence points to sariska being the superior and if it was soft she'd make midday look like a plater.

bladdered?



she was given every chance and even hit 1.01 yet SNA 'won going away'. only cda has beaten him going left handed over 12f and he shouldve won in meyday, closing all the way to the line given a joey special.

brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
    And all of this talk about the going. If you look at Nathaniel's finishing position compared with his defeat of St Nicholas Abbey and the distance Frankel beat St Nicholas Abbey. Then take into consideration Nathaniel improved a little (less than a length)on the softer ground than the King George and St Nicholas Abbey improved a little (less than a length)in the King George over the longer trip then Frankel ran to form.

Now we're getting down to it. Earlier you said you rated the Champion Stakes performance 134 (I wouldn't disagree much with that as I reckon 135). Now you're saying Frankel ran to form. So when you've batted away criticisms of your arguments by saying you think Frankel is a great horse, up with the best but not the best, you didn't really mean that at all then, as you've now just implied that he's just a 134 horse.

Brigust

Tell me a top Galileo horse that has improved on soft ground

ILWAB - I have just checked the ratings given to the pair (at their best) and I see that Midday achieved a career high of 121 and Sariska 120 - I know that's not 'evidence' but at least the OFFICIAL assessor agrees with me, so I think your 'hilarious' emoticons are uncalled for

As I always say squire...it's all about opinion and if Queally had held on to her for another 220 yards, I'm CONVINCED that on that day she'd have bladdered SNA!

'hilarious' love it.

ill stick with the 3-0 to sariska. and on soft she'd beat her 10L on the bridle no hass.

Who gives a fcuk about heavy ground?

I don't know how you can be so scything about my views given officially Midday was rated superior!
I just think Midday was better as she got older and she was capable of more than she showed...you're showing your immaturity in using churlish emoticons in expressing your view which is a bit below the belt as I see things

It's as if you've got no regard for my opinion or that of the official assessor and you're mocking me...not like you ILWAB - I thought you were bigger than that

im not NG, everyone has an opinion, thats cool with me.

I just dont see the argument when someone thinks midday was better than sariska. as mentioned even under middays optimum conditions she couldbe beat sariska and if that was the other way round it may as well be frankel against excelebration such is the difference.

but youre entitled to your opinion, its cool.

Figgis, there is only one race to compare with for Frankel over 10f and that is the Juddmonte. It was against a strange bunch with St Nic supposedly wanting further and Farhh supposedly wanting less. I think the pacemaker was 4th. His other ratings are through Excelebration and over a mile. I think the Exceebration rating is too high and think Frankel should be on 140, less after today. Definitely and absolutely not 147.

I have CDA on 130 and Frankel on 134 today. And I'm not convinced CDA is as good as they say.

Form is another matter and it is that I am questioning. IF Frankel didn't act on the ground as is being implied where in the form does it show.

i do regard your opinion.

It was against a strange bunch

What a weird thing to say, not at all biased

St Nic supposedly wanting further

That's odd as you were adamant before the race that St Nic was a better 10f horse and didn't really get 12f, yet because he didn't get as close to Frankel as you predicted you are now taking the opposite stance.

Farhh supposedly wanting less

Supposed by who? I think most people would agree that his finest performance was in the Eclipse.

No Brig

It`s not that Frankel did not act in the ground. Do we have an understanding of horses with exceptional pace? Of course we do, so can we decide if they prefer ground ideal for exceptional pace or more stamina and pace sapping ground

Horses that improve on softer ground actually run slower, its just that they get through the ground more effectively than other horses. Frankel is not a horse that needs to run slower to improve his chances. Cirrus Des Aigles however is.

i love the totle of this tread btw. a milk float

title ffs.

Goodnight chaps...great as ever to be debating this issue with worthy & opinionated adversaries

I've ended the day over a ton down but strangely I feel just swell as Frankel has done more than enough today to keep me happy

I can't say I've EVER felt like this before, and that's coming form a pauper that's NEVER had a five figure sum in the bank
One day...I swear I'll get to five figures so I can easily afford the brandy I consume

indeed.

yes great to see frankel win. to retire unbeaten is v rare and a remarkable achievement.

night ng.

Soory Figgis, I had to go to bed. I suppose you understand the word 'supposedly'? I did say I thought St Nic would be better over shorter as a reason for not backing him in the King George. BUT since I said that he ran a staying 3rd in the KG (looking for all the world he needed every yard), He failed to get past Farhh in the Juddmonte and was well beatn in the Irish Champion. So you tell me 'is he a 10f horse or a 12f horse' or just not up to much?

About Farhh I think it was Godolphin who thought Farhh may be better at a mile. His best 2 wins (both poor handicaps by the way) were at a mile and his best defeats so far are at a mile. Looks like a miler to me. Hope that satisfies you? But I sincerely doubt it because you leave no stone unturned when it comes to stretching the truth.

And Angel, I remember not so long ago the Arc would have been a doddle, even on heavy ground. Making it up as you go along? An no, I don't understand about horses with pace, new at this game.

To give 3 lengths at the start and still beat top flight horses on ground that was in there favour more than his says it all. Frankel is at least the equal of Dancing Brave but probably better certainly between 8-10f.We will all do well to see one like him again.

Don`t forget Dancing Brave had stamina doubts because of his incredible pace over 8 furlongs.

I think all this talk of one being better than the other is mindless. It is actually impossible to say. The difference though is that back in 1886 connections realised the importance of testing ability up to 12f.

On soft ground DB may well have struggled over 12f because his perfect trip was 10f. Dancing Brave still gets the nod for me because he showed more strings to his bow.

In all my years of watching racing,last year's 2000 gns will never be forgotten.Probably the most awesome performance I have ever witnessed(yes,I was there) in flat racing,and I have been oncourse to see many greats.

When i say DB gets the nod i am not saying that i believe him to be superior to Frankel. As i said i think it is impossible to say who would definitely beat who.

Frankel v Dancing Brave over 8f - 10f
....how can anyone actual say. There is no evidence to go on.

They both dominated. Yet only DB achieved top honours over 12f. So he achieved more but that does not decide who would beat who.

Thank You AG. That is what I have been saying from the start. For Tf to rate Frankel above these other great horses cannot be proven and is just opportunism.

I can't think of any of the greats who couldn't have done what Frankel did but I cannot say the reverse. But that doesn't mean he could not. Fot that reason I am quite happy for Frankel to be considered indesputibly one the greats of our great sport.

Unbiased

Yes it was breath taking but he was however ridden to stretch the field and win by a wide margin.

If Dancing Brave had been asked to beat Green Desert by 6L then he could have taken it up 3 out and pulled right away but he was ridden to quicken up 2f out and win by 3L.

*indisputably

Unbiased I'm certain Dancing Brave or Brigadier Gerard would have mullered Dubawi Gold and Native Khan. Unquestionably.

I agree Brigust

All this talk of him being the greatest ever is guess work.

I would have DB ahead of STS because DB was more devestating over 8f but perhaps on a par over 12f. Yet how you can split Frankel and DB over 8-10f is beyond me.

Brigadier Gerard is before my time so i can`t go on my perception of that era.

brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
So you tell me 'is he a 10f horse or a 12f horse' or just not up to much?

His form looks very similar at both trips to me. Depends what you mean by not up to much, I'd say at his best he's a 130 horse, which is pretty decent in my book. So for Frankel to thrash him by a comfy 7 1/4 lengths over 10f is very impressive, to say the least. Although, I know in your view of things a 1 1/2 length beating of a 137 horse over 12f counts for more, fortunately most decent handicappers don't think the same.

Oct 21, 2012 -- 12:47PM, Angel Gabrial wrote:

Brigadier Gerard is before my time so i can`t go on my perception of that era.

Todays racing at Bath should give you some idea

According to Graham Cunningham SNA is a good Group 2 horse.

Brigust - I like Cunningham but that view is utter plums!

brigust1 Joined: 07 Dec 01
 
According to Graham Cunningham SNA is a good Group 2 horse. 

Oh well, argument ended, GC has spoken

Can't believe all this talk about Cirrus Des Aigles being overrated. On soft/heavy ground Cirrus Des Aigles is probably the best horse in the world (aside from Frankel obviously) over 10-12f and would most likely have won the Arc had he been allowed to run. That Frankel made him look ordinary makes the performance even more impressive.

Having said that i thought Peslier rode a shocker on the French horse. The only chance he had of beating Frankel was to make it a serious test of stamina, instead he played into the hands of Frankel by turning the race in a 2f sprint. Absolute madness!!!!

the race being run only 4.62 secs slower than RP standard in Soft Heavy in places ground doesn't support a 'turning the race into a 2f sprint' theory

That must have been one hell of a run last year by Cirrus Des Aigles to run 8 seconds faster on good ground!!!!!!!

That must have been one hell of a run last year by Cirrus Des Aigles to run 8 seconds faster on good ground!!!!!!!