How long does Racing have left in England?

thankfully the attendances at scottish courses seem to be standing up well and in fact increasing, perhaps not at ayr which has fallen way behind the facilities and quality of racing available at the other scottish tracks...we're also not so dependent on the 'live bands' and hunting has never been as prevalent, only in the borders area really, nothing north of perth where let's face it there are loads of foxes and open spaces!!  which goes someway to show that hunting is more social and snobbery than 'animal management'!...however the lack of real knowledge of racing and lack of action by stewards/authorities may well kill off the sport for those who attend regularly i.e. not the ladies day or family day crowds who go once/twice a year and don't care and don't recognise the many non-triers and horrible rides which betfair forum reports on daily!!

the racing press and C4/RUK/ATR in particular need to report on this with real sharpness and not the likes of francome etc who defend absolutely every ride no matter the circumstances.  OK I've not ridden a champion hurdler but I'd bet I've watched more races than francome and I know a non trier when I see one - him and others are culpable in this silence!!

to start with ...take out 20% of the fixtures and raise prize money.....bring in tough pens as seen in HK for corruption/quiet rides etc....

Another danger is a lot of racecourses are worth more if sold off for housing.

Only increase in gates is due to Live bands or 'Football fans enjoying a day on the beer during close season. Disagree...for one there's always been a close season in football, so why now any different...plenty of meetings with no bands have had very healthy attendances despite weather this summer...racing's a socially desirable thing to do

BHA blind/powerless to the constant corruption. Non triers/quiet rides/etc....i remember blatant Cumani/Gosden non-triers back in 80s/early-90s...you dont see them nowadays...dont doubt there's some cute stuff goes on at lower levels but i doubt i back more than 1 or 2 nonners a year, if that

TV coverage falling....2 specialist channels and C4 covering more than ever

Prize money so poor connections really should be taking their decent animals abroad....Yes, this is the real problem

Racing Press toothless at best. Useless more accurate....fair enough

Only time it makes the front pages is when a jockey is caught taking drugs or corrupt money....not strictly true, Black Caviar, Frankel and Kauto Star have all made front pages of broadsheets in last 12 months

Other sports moving with the times and supported by Sky....Sky's been around for 20 yrs and i cant see how it's been an issue thus far

Anti-hunting brigade getting more vocal and seemingly more powerful.[/b]....dont care about hunting

The BHA has given up. Bans for cheating will virtually become a thing of the past. Even if an owner/trainer is found guilty, a simple transfer of the horses/license to a spouse or family member will enable them to continue as before. They will not risk bad publicity so they will continue to turn a blind eye to the institutional corruption that exists in the sport below the top level.

The fixture list continues to fall in quality in order to maintain the saturation level that the bookmakers demand. Most meetings from Sunday to Friday cater largely for below-average animals and racing that is of little interest to the public.

Young people are by and large betting on football, rather than racing. With the FOBT's on the scene also, the share of gambling money pumped into Horse Racing will surely continue to fall.

Foal crops are falling yet the BHA will try to maintain a bloated fixture list rather than cutting it down and improving the quality and competitiveness. Even people who have punted on racing for years will turn their noses up at 8-races cards full of class 6 mince with divided 0-55s.

The BHA and the Irish equivalents will continue to fail to co-operate in a way that could improve the levy by reducing race clashes.

Go to a midweek gaff meeting and you will see there are very few racegoers under the age of about 50. Bookmakers all offering the same prices and trying to nick a bit back on here. As others have said, it is going to the dogs.

BB has summed it up perfectly, sadly.

exactly Barton.....totally in agreement on the issue of corruption....

Only increase in gates is due to Live bands or 'Football fans enjoying a day on the beer during close season.

attendances holding up well considering the recession and actually increasing in a few areas

BHA blind/powerless to the constant corruption. Non triers/quiet rides/etc....

there are more IMO non-triers now than ever before - perhaps I'm watching more racing or perhaps I'm more sensitive to it now

TV coverage falling....BBC yes but possible with internet to watch EVERY race from your front room

Prize money so poor connections really should be taking their decent animals abroad....not sure this is a real issue although the reduction in CL5-6 races would be very welcome even if this meant less fixtures

Racing Press toothless at best. Useless more accurate....-i think this is a factor in the general malaise and pessimism expressed here and elsewhere

Only time it makes the front pages is when a jockey is caught taking drugs or corrupt money....not strictly true, Black Caviar, Frankel and Kauto Star have all made front pages of broadsheets in last 12 months - AGREE

Other sports moving with the times and supported by Sky....Sky's been around for 20 yrs and i cant see how it's been an issue thus far - AGREE a non-factor

Anti-hunting brigade getting more vocal and seemingly more powerful.[/b]....dont care about hunting - thankfully BANNED and long may it remain so and before any of you get out of your tree, I'm from farming background (sheep even which are the most impacted by foxes) and would NEVER support hunting

I love a good fox-hunting debate

fooking animal rights blah now effecting the bull fighting here

what next? fishing maybe?

should ban **** cats as well as pets, they kill a lot of birds you know

sorry, got distracted. Yes, horse racing is fooked

I want to know who the twot is who banned creamola....

Now that twot would get it..

http://www.fizzshop.co.uk/

i think they use it in kemo nowadays...

themover: Not that shíte, the pudding..

8,500+ betting shops wanting the fixture list kept high,but betting on horseracing in decline,so  profits in decline,resulting in falling Levy,resulting in poor prize money.The books don't balance.

Once they shut gaffs that get good crowds and keep ones open that attract nobody you know the games fecked.

Folkestone this summer has been a joy to go too, well attended, friendly, really good attendances as per usual.Yet thats shutting.

Dross las should never in a million yrs be allowed to have flat racing and so many fixtures.

What does kempton bring to the table for 99% of it meetings bar bookies fodder for the machine loons??

Eventually the bookies will decide they don't need all these fixtures and start playing hardball over contributions to Horse Racing, then the game will be screwed.

Again we agree, BB

Roo, I would defend Kempton as it provides opportunities for trainers to run their young horses when the ground on turf is very fast/soft and the quality of the racing is better than a lot of the turf tracks.

Flat racing at Dross Las is utterly terrible, tedious, uncompetitive mince.
I have never been to Folkestone, I think the quality of Flat racing is awful but if it is attracting decent crowds then you obviously have a point.

The future is bleak

Apologist could see the present and see the future, nothing changes.

What a bunch of miserable fookers.

At least 11 yrs

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before

Sep 20, 2012 -- 5:20PM, roo wrote:

Once they shut gaffs that get good crowds and keep ones open that attract nobody you know the games fecked.Folkestone this summer has been a joy to go too, well attended, friendly, really good attendances as per usual.Yet thats shutting.Dross las should never in a million yrs be allowed to have flat racing and so many fixtures.What does kempton bring to the table for 99% of it meetings bar bookies fodder for the machine loons??

Folkestone was a lovely course, good holiday crowds and good hard core NH Punters.
If anyone with half a brain who wasn't a greedy selfish Bar Stard had owned it and run it properly,
it'd be thriving today.
Close down Brighton and Southwell instead, both 5hit holes with mediocre/Crap racing.

Agree with penzance , at least 11 years 

I miss Folkestone it was badly let down by many who could have saved it.

closed it down just before i was going to cross it off me list

is it houses now? most of the south east is. or more accurately flats

No mitolo that was one of the problems the local council wouldn’t allow planning permission for the amount of houses arc wanted to build ,they were going to then make the course a left handed course with the new stands by the a2 ,for 11 years the place became overgrown and knackered ,in April 2023 the council finally agreed to give permission for a new garden town to be built on the site ,it looks like there will be more houses than arc were denied permission for.


But that’s councils for you I would struggle to think of organisations as easy to buy.

nnnnnn

rotten boroughs. how i hate em. some people made fortunes at the expense of the public out of them

It’s a shame you never got there it was a lovely place to visit ,a nice fish pond by the parade ring ,good places to eat and attended by enthusiastic racegoers.

The 2nd to last fixture more of that made his debut.

as long as fixed odds betting dominates, it will never solve its problems. all the countries with a healthy racing industry (japan, hong kong, australia, france, US) have a tote monopoly or did have for a very long time and its still the dominant way of gambling (australia).......there is very little interest in racing in france compared to the UK, but they have a tote monopoly, hence great prize money. in america they have casino gambling at the track which forms the basis for their prize money along with the tote monopoly..........all UK racings problems stem from giving the game away decades ago to fixed odds betting. anyone that tells us different is lying. irish prize money is funded 50% by a state subsidy. thats the only reason why our prize money is better than the UK's.

Flat Racing should be ok for a while Jump Racing is hanging on by a thread imho.To many fatalities and young people are not interested in the main....Times are changing like it or lump it.

You're obviously looking at Horse Racing in other countries through rose tinted glasses. In the US more than 40 tracks have closed since 2000 with the amount of races staged being reduced year on year. In 1989 there were more than 74,000 races. Last year there were only 33,453. All racing will end in North California by the end of the year.

Would you really want to bet on the kind of Racing they stage in Hong Kong? Every race a large competitive field, almost impossible to sort out. The same people were crying about how competitive the Racing League races were! A Tote monopoly wouldn't be the answer to the problems in British racing IMVHO.

The Tote funding model needs addressing. But the poor returns to racing from betting turnover is the real key, so bookmakers need to pay more in levy or be taxed more highly with money returned to horse racing as state aid. Prize money levels have barely budged in 20 years.

whippin picadilly......have you seen the prize money at santa anita, del mar, belmont park and saratoga?...........the latter has 100k maidens...........

its all about the prize money.

I keep hearing this about national hunt racing I remember been at aintree to see kildimo and dessie there was hardly anybody on course that day now it’s incredibly busy each day over 30 years on ,and in the main young people

Horse Racing in the UK is actually financially well off. Do not read the doom headlines from the Racing Post etc. We still are the 2nd biggest sport in the country behind Football.

There maybe a decline in interest in horse racing, but that happens to sports. At least we have the National Hunt racing back, something to look forward to

Well done trident a positive post

And let's not forget Cheltenham and Aintree does produce the best horses to run. Great for spectators IMO.

We do need a Christmas festival trident ,one day at kempton and two at ascot ,getting races from Newbury and sandown plus a couple from the weekend prior to Christmas run at ascot.

However won’t happen bha never make good decisions

I would like to point out" Don't believe everything you read" Usually shareholder interests are ratcheting up pressure on media to highlight negative problems for their own benefits in the end.... When lots start SHOUTING, racing in decline affordability etc, I always think to myself there is an agenda somewhere... And it's not usually about the SPORT as a whole. It's individuals big global companies trying to accumulate wealth for themselves!!!

We are in a recession, we are all suffering from the cost of living crisis. But we shouldn't forget, horse racing is about the HORSES at the end of the day.

There are Plenty of tracks around the country making a tidy profit from media rights.

Sep 21, 2023 -- 9:46AM, jimnast wrote:

We do need a Christmas festival trident ,one day at kempton and two at ascot ,getting races from Newbury and sandown plus a couple from the weekend prior to Christmas run at ascot.

Must agree with you. I look forward to Boxing Day, rather than xmas day myself

I think most of us do trident but the rest of the holiday period is average other than the challow hurdle and the finale hurdle.

Christmas is all about Wincanton on Boxing Day, Chepstow on the 27th, Devon & Exeter on New year's Day, Taunton on one of the days in between. Good races, massive crowds of young people, literally overflowing, the stands can't cope.

If you live in the North, I'm sure you've got your equivalents at Wetherby, etc.

It's one of the great traditions of the Turf, and the last thing I'd want is for the BHA to "premierize" all that away. Who needs a London Festival that the rest of the country just sits at home watching on the telly?

When you throw in the word premierize screaming then of course I am against that and yes the north gets huge crowds that week although it’s not the case at haydock for some reason.

My idea would not alter start times or anything else at the tracks you mention those young people would still go and attendances at the recourses would still be good ,the races I would use are those already in place between around the 18 th December through till the first Saturday in January ,and create a big 3 day fixture starting on Boxing Day at kempton.

I just hate changing things, jimnast. Unintended consequences, and all that. Christmas would become all about ITV promoting the London Festival, rather than promoting the Castleford Chase and the Welsh National alongside and equal to the King George and the Christmas Hurdle. I'd worry that Wetherby and Chepstow would become second-rate, supplementary fixtures.

Sorry. I'm not looking for an argument here. I do see your point. I'm just fearful that so much about British racing which worked has already been lost. The fixture list evolved the way it did because that's what either the participants or the spectators wanted. My instinctive reaction to central planners forcing their ideas on the sport is always to oppose them.

You speak a lot of sense screaming and I know you care about horse racing .

Incidentally the likes of the castleford chase Welsh national and the finale hurdle wouldn’t be affected,I would lose the ascot pre Christmas fixture and take the likes of the Ladbroke and long walk hurdle,plus the good novice races and the silver cup,add the challow from Newbury and the tolworth from sandown,the first day at kempton would be much the same but the 2 nd would go ,it’s not good enough but 3 races  the wayward lad the desert orchid and the mares hurdle could be added to the two days at ascot.

I realise members at sandown and Newbury wouldn’t be happy

However wealthy owners are they never lose the thrill of winning a cash prize

In general it's hard to be optimistic about the future of racing although it will probably survive in some altered format.
One of my pet peeves is the fact that so many of the top performers do so little racing. Some of the best horses race for only two or three times a season or only over two seasons. Punters don't get to see enough exciting clashes between the best as they are all ducking and diving to avoid each other. Flat horses in particular seldom get the chance to become'stars' and household names with a wider publicin the way some NH horses do.
Thoroughbreds are supposed to be RACE horses not GALLOPS horses.

If you cut the fixture list by 33% then the prize money would be better divided, who wants to watch AW Racing in the summer,
or jump racing in the height of the summer.?. cut those out and put that prize money towards the lower end of the scale.

Sep 21, 2023 -- 1:08PM, dambuster wrote:

If you cut the fixture list by 33% then the prize money would be better divided, who wants to watch AW Racing in the summer,or jump racing in the height of the summer.?. cut those out and put that prize money towards the lower end of the scale.

They will never do that. Reason- Bookmakers want races in the evenings to lure people to the slots and casinos.

Yes lets throw thousands of people out of work by decimating the industry in order to please people who might not like a particular type of racing.

how does getting people to watch and bet on an evening meeting under the lights get more a tiny number on the slots ?

get more than

If you cut the fixture list by 33%, you'd be cutting the Levy yield and media rights payments by 33% too.

But you can choose which part of racing you enjoy and stick to it. How many Football fans other than fanatics ever watch Division 1 and 2 let alone National league so why should a racing fan need to watch every race? I do watch most GB races as I am retired but I don't watch many Irish or French ones and certainly not Australia, South Africa or America. And even then, 90% of my bets are non handicaps which restricts me to 2 or 3 per meeting.

Back in 2008 when I first joined you might see an 8 runner selling handicap at Sedgefield have 450K matched on here.

screaming from beneaththewaves 21 Sep 23 14:07 Joined: 30 Jan 05 | Topic/replies: 14,989 | Blogger: screaming from beneaththewaves's blog
If you cut the fixture list by 33%, you'd be cutting the Levy yield and media rights payments by 33% too.


Disagree,it could even increase levy,if better more competitive racing,it could lead to more bets,a race every 5 mins is just overload.

Sep 21, 2023 -- 1:36PM, sparrow wrote:

Yes lets throw thousands of people out of work by decimating the industry in order to please people who might not like a particular type of racing.

Reducing the fixtures wouldn't reduce the number of horses in training would it?

for example if there were 100 maidens in training and the prize money was 100k for these to race on a weekday.

You could have 8 races of 12 horses with 12.5k a race.

Or split it out by grade

1 race for the  ~ 10 Grade A horses with 32k in the race pot
2 race for the  ~ 30 Grade B horses with 16k in each race pot
3 race for the  ~ 60 Grade B horses with 9k in each race pot

Same prize money, same number of horses.. but you are catering for the good/mediocre/bad.
..I've assumed horses follow the expected triangular view of ability... one really good horse and lots of bad ones with a few in the middle..
.
.
And the BHA/IHRB have to know what number of horses are in training in each category so they are well capable of organizing this.

Little point putting 20 races on if there are only 50/60 horses in training capable of running in them.

Betting exchanges the biggest downfall of horse racing , allowing the sport to be more bent than ever . Most of racing is now bent /corrupt including most jockeys, i feel for the genuine trainers/owners in racing , there is no place for them now.

cacique Joined: 21 Oct 07
Replies: 103721 Sep 23 17:43 

Reducing the fixtures wouldn't reduce the number of horses in training would it?





Yes it most certainly would by severely reducing the amount of opportunities many of these horses now have. People spend small fortunes on buying and keeping these horses in training.

Would increasing the prize money increase the number of horses in training immediately?

In the short term..impossible. There are only a certain number of mares covered every year with these being offered for sale and/or raced.

In the long term of course its possible.
But it would take a coordinated effort amongst many legs of the industry.
And most of these stakeholders in UK don't know their ACAS from their NALGO!!

Jinzy can't win so blames bendy trainers

Less races of higher grade and higher prize money would encourage better breeding match ups and not sentimental 50-rated mares producing 50-rated maidens, it only dilutes the quality of horse we have here. Less can definitely mean more.

Less races overall you are wanting at just the top level, swifty?

Ayr today…..high grade ffs

Exchanges increase the opportunities to have a bet and of course to lay a horse which was denied us for many years. We also have no tax while it used to be 10% so surely punters have never had it so good. I just don't buy this idea that most owners and trainers are bent. There will always be some but the majority are clearly trying and love to win. Too many punters only watch racing on a screen and don't have a clue how much work and money goes into getting a horse fit to race.

sageform

An excellent post.

Nobody sets out to breed a 50-rated horse. It just costs too much. Thousands.

If you banned the offspring of 50-rated mares from racing, you'd still end up with a huge number of 50-rated foals.

And if you abolished races for 50-rated horses, you'd just end up with a load of euthanized animals, and eventually horse racing itself getting banned.

Nobody sets out to breed a 50-rated horse.

Really?
what do you expect to breed if you go Rajasinghe at the National Stud? for 3k you might get a speedy 2 year old. but I'd imagine you'll get an awful lot of dross.

Covering (handling) costs, foaling costs, sales prepping costs, breaking in costs, all the same fixed amounts no matter how good or bad the horse is.

Exactly. Which is why no one sets out expecting to breed a bad horse. If they go to Rajasinghe, they indeed expect to get a speedy 2yo, which a lot of breeders duly have. You don't spend £3,000 because you expect to get something rated 50.

You know the saying: if you dislike someone, give them a broodmare; if you really hate them, give them two.

It's worth remembering that every horse ends up rated 50, if you race it long enough.

Very good that one screaming never heard that before ,I wonder how old frankel would need to be to reach that level.

Will if every horse was bred by Galilieo and out of Kind, the top 1% would be G1 horses and the bottom 20% (or whatever) would be 0-50s.

Staff shortage will probably be the issue that kills racing as a main stream sport.

https://www.theirishfield.ie/all-too-real-the-equine-industry-staffing-crisis-697641
https://www.kittygoesracing.co.uk/racingsstaffingcrisis
https://www.racingpost.com/news/recruitment-and-lack-of-training-having-big-impact-on-industry-akLCc8j87YPe/


Just won't have the staff to ride the ponies in the morning.

Well they say the same about fruit picking. Always a workforce somewhere.

but in the quantum and skill needed to care for multi million pound thoroughbreds?

I didn't know the UK were world leaders in fruit growing to make this a fair comparison.

By tonnage they are 13th in the world for strawberry production
https://www.atlasbig.com/en-ie/countries-by-strawberry-production

and 20 something's for apples
https://www.atlasbig.com/en-cn/countries-by-apple-production

but in the quantum and skill needed to care for multi million pound thoroughbreds?  -- I'm don't think the boys with the multi million pound horses have too much trouble finding staff.

There are many similarities between racing and agriculture and the bottom line is public opinion as reflected in Government policy. Since around 1980, farming has been largely ignored by Government apart from trying to follow EU regulations and so our level of self sufficiency in food falls every year. Land is either used for leisure, wildlife or construction with quite a lot left derelict. It is much more profitable for a farmer these days to allow solar or wind farms to be built or take environmental payments than to produce food. Racing can only flourish with Government support, not in subsidies but just by leaving it alone but now we have the gambling legislation, welfare concerns
and other obstacles that are threatening its future. Unless there is a change of attitude towards the countryside of which racing has always been a part, we will have no sports that involve animals and we will be importing 90% of our food.

Government support is to bin the checks…..

Until the arrival of the totally cashless society.

Sep 22, 2023 -- 10:10AM, roggrain wrote:

Until the arrival of the totally cashless society.

Its already arrived.

How many public toilets still require coins to get in?

Sep 22, 2023 -- 1:00PM, sageform wrote:

How many public toilets still require coins to get in?

I don't know where you frequent sageform, but around here it's only a £2 coin excepted, but you do get change with a voucher.

cheers

if a £2 coin is excepted, what do you use?

I’ve noticed recently there’s a fight back against all this credit card nonsense only small at the moment but when many more realise the lunacy of it all the fight back will gain momentum.

let soap sew

mine jew i can see the attraction if you are running a battlecruiser; mitolo himself has 7 and went cashless 5 years ago and is delighted. saves time money effort and more importantly. theft, which is always  a big problem when dodgy managers have the weekend takings(considerable in this case) as a temptation

i dont like it meslf and you leave a trail wherever you go and-not what you want if you are at it with some illicit crumpet

The day to day has about 20 years max I'd say, no interest in horse racing these days from the teens/20 something these days.

Only the big Saturday meetings, Festivals and music nights create any interest with the public

Well it’s lasted 11 years since this thread started

What do people think will happen to the billions of £s invested by much cleverer people than most in the breeding industry those planning g many years ahead ?

Can't see the betting in shops or on course carrying on, younger people just don't bet on horse racing

Younger people do bet on the racecourse in hell perhaps not so much in the mid week winter fixtures .

OP, tomorrow.