What's Happened To Our Betting Rings

Betfair has destroyed on course bookmaking and the rings.  Nothing else.

Agree. It's only at point-to-points where you now have a proper betting ring instead of BF copiers.

everyone can be a bookmaker now

Betting to 160%, or 180%, wiz?

PAULBU,I have been going to a few Northern meetings recently and yes it is true

the ring has no atmosphere whatsoever.

Joking aside, I was at Sedgefield the other week and no bookies were bothering to shout the odds anymore, every price virtually the same. The game is in a feeble state.

I think blaming betfair is harsh, lets put in perspective,

the internet has changed everything , not betfair,

its the internet , the invention of the internet has changed everything not befairs fault

even dating people dont meet out anymore all online dating,

its just the internet in general,

even in the supermarket check out chick is now her in aus starting to be automated with stupid software

its the internet is the problem will become the humans undoing to

when was the last time you heard this as the ate john joyce would say "its all right lads your all on"

Risk taking characters have been replaced by skimming automatons.  Heaven forbid they should have a loser.  Betfair is god and all come to worship.

ronnie, the late great John Joyce ably aided and abetted by Johnny Ridley snr what a duo

Old man Ridley a gentleman if ever there was one, no matter how bad the results were never

ran out of readies he must have tens and tens of thousands of pounds in those huge pockets

of his overcoat, Joe Douglas might have been a bit red in the face but my goodness he would

lay a bet, happy days.

BB
I know this has been brought up numerous times on here about the %'s at the points but where do you go pointing?Fair enough we do open to crazy high margins on the Maidens but at the off we are usually down to 120/130 on these races.I don't think I would have worked to 140 any race last year even with Maiden races with plenty of runners & the bank holday crowds.I certainly worked on plenty of races where they bet overbroke.

Just thinking of the old days at Sedgefield, the four top picks were Douglas, Joyce, Ridley senior and Reg Boyle I daren’t think of how much you could have got on with them four.

A serious question wee eck how much do you think you would get on now at a gaff meeting with the books if betfair was down, thinking of sedgy some other great layers were Tom James, Pat Whelan, Bob Jacobs and Brian Trewitt.

Great days sadly gone for ever.

my first thought on paulbu's "i have laid" was john joyce a true gentleman

ronnie if you were a face perhaps a couple of grand with the big firms, on the

boards peanuts, 75% of them imo would not have the slightest idea how to price

up and as regards standing one, those days are history.  Truly the game has gone.

wee eck

Sorry forgot about your old pal Alec Lewis, do you know how his son is doing at the dogs.

Funny enough im off to the dogs at Sunderland tomorrow with staff and customers from Corals, never been to the dogs since Cleveland park shut so i must be old now as its been shut well over 20 years if not 30.

They were happy days, train from darlo to thornaby walk to Stockton racecourse for a good day on the horses then a quick walk down to the dogs, many times had a long walk back with just the return train ticket in my pocket.

allpoints, have to confess I don't go pointing, but I do buy and use the point form book (for hunters and horses switched to pro yards) and some of the percentages look horrendous!

Alec, was a character when he bet at Brough after every race he would be at the bar downing a large

whisky amazingly on a 12 race card he would virtually drink a whole bottle never seemed to affect him

betting though.   Have not seen Paul for years he was a nice quite lad.

wee eck

just before i finaly get to bed, needed a couple of new suits so went to the Toon with her indoors a few weeks ago, sat by the quayside having a few bevys and a bite to eat and lost count of the Jim Adams wagons going by how's he doing i havent seen him for years, very friendly chap always spoke at the races.

regards and good night Ronnie

apparently business today at haydock was useless.

ronnie, Jimmy a friend of mine has had a battle with the big c for a year or

two is still hanging in a great man with a super family, good night to you.

PAULBU,DID U ACTUALLY GO TO HAYDOCK TODAY(THURS),BECAUSE IF U DID U WOULD HAVE SEEN AND HEARD A BOOKMAKER GOING"BIGGER THAN THE MACHINE"EVERY FAV,EVERY RACE(I WILL BE THERE FRIDAY AS WELL)AS FOR ATMOSPHERE FORGET IT,THE RINGS ARE TOTALLY DEVOID OF ANY CHARACTERS,WITH THE VAST MAJORITY OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS NOW COMMISSION AGENTS AND GOVERNED BY THE EVER WEAKENING BETFAIR,BUT IF U LOOK AND LISTEN U WILL STILL FIND BOOKMAKERS THAT WILL STAND EM AND LAY A BET.HAVE TO SAY THAT THE BUSINESS AT HAYDOCK ON A BEAUTIFUL SUMMERS DAY WAS EVEN WORSE THAN YORK TATTS,WITH THE RAILS FAIRING NO BETTER,CAN ONLY GUESS WHAT IT WILL BE LIKE IN WINTER.

oncourse punters never had it so good just more choice with internet and racing channels still plenty of books who will lay good size bet attendances holding up plenty of punters wanting pounds on whos living in the past

paul, its difficult to dismiss exchanges, but sat at home last Saturday watching 60 bookmakers operate on-course Sandown being led by the machine, most races 3 mins before the off the combined total traded on both exchanges was less than £100K.

Lingfield thursday, saw Urban Space scratch its way to post, screamed 11/4 for 2 mins could have laid 3.55, took a score give up and laid the machine. sp 9/4

not sure modern day punters care about value.

I think Wasnot and Factsmachine have got it right: btfr is largely the culprit here. Messed the game right up, imo.

OK, there is a bad recession and folk ain't got much spare cash, anfd, yes, the Internet has changed many things ( not all for the better, btw),
but the plain fact is that horseracing, like dog racing before it, is becoming less and less popular for punters.

I don't believe we can blame the recession and the Internet entirely, as, from the bit I saw of it, the Olympics seemed to easily overcome these negatives and proved to be a (surprising to me)huge success.

On the other hand, many of us on here are old bggrs who like to reminisce about the characters of the past. We always feel that our time was the best ever.
However, in the case of pubs, horseracing, dogracing, and general craic at work, I think we were a lot better off in the "old days".

Maybe that's just the way it seemed. We were younger then. Certainly, today's lifestyle seems a grim way of going on, with almost every bggr you meet looking as miserable as fk. This despite the fact that modern technology has lightened the burden for so many.
Frankly, I'm not sorry that I won't have to put up with it for much longer.

We're doomed!

WHAT WERE THE OVER ROUNDS IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS      GOOD OLD DAYS FOR THE BOOKS MAYBE

good post sean,we all remember the past fondly,i have spent a lot of time in the betting rings since the 70's and were there that many characters really? plenty of miserable sods as well imo and trust me the so called legends of the ring like joyce,steele etc wouldn't have fared any better against the internet than anybody else does today.they were just lucky enough to be around when they were and made the most of it,not much opposition and held a firm grip of what went on in the ring,anyone trying to go 1/6 etc would have been kicked out,anyone who tried to shake up the status quo was soon sent packing.
i take paulbu's point about the interaction with tic-tac's taking away some atmosphere but michael cunningham packed in 2 years ago because of lack of business due to the internet,he also states it's a long time since he went racing,perhaps that has something to do with the modern technology now available to everyone?
its called progress apparently.

Poor old oncourse Bookies dead men walking, good days have long gone time to pack it in boys..not enough mugs to go around.

Maxed I can well remember the days when the poor sods betting in the back line were

overbroke race after race, it was always the same front line guys who had longevity

had chances those scratchers in the rear scratched, is, as was, always will be.

We're doomed, doomed, i tell you!

How long will it be, before there are no racecourse bookmakers?

10 years?

15 years?

20 years?

25 years?

What do you think?

With the advent of Lotteries, scratchcards, slots and suchforth there is far less mug money sloshing around the sport

Thenorfolk, I dont know much about modern day bookies but the old timers

were a most resilient lot and would rise against adversity, problem for

bookies could be the new government policy of a building free for all.

1st course to go Ayr swiftly followed by Redcar and then the domino effect

will be in operation, in 20 years time might only be a dozen courses operating

bookies pitches will be worth double dyed fortunes.

factmachine, I never saw you or heard you at Haydock yesterday, you must try and shout a bit louder. I had a chat with the guys with Tatts layer Roy Huddlestone just before the last race and they agreed with everything that I posted above. They even joked that out of all the layers there yesterday, there would probably be no more than three who would know how to tic-tac. One question, did anybody lay 3-1 about Set The Trend ?
barry dennis
I'm not knocking the way that on-course layers operate from a business viewpoint, it's their business and they operate in a way which is best for them, but it has killed the thrill of the betting jungle 'stone dead'.
ronnie rails
Yeah, those summer evening meetings at Stockton were a great night out. Train from Bank Top to Thornaby, ten minute walk to the track. Train back to Darlo in time for a couple of pints in the County.

BB
Thanks for repling but to be honest the SP's in the point reporting are nearly all way out.Half the time they don't even have the correct fav.This isn't the fault of anyone only the fact that the reporters are expected to do too much.They have to get the decs,look at them in the paddock,a quick glance at the betting ring then get into a position to watch the race.During the race they write down their comments.After the race they have of course to have a chat with the winning connections if they can & also report on any stewards etc.Some of the good reporters do come after racing & get the SP's then but very rarely do they get market moves etc.This is usually all done by one person,doing their best but unfortunately it's too much for anyone to do on their own.

Sean,

You're observations are spot on, my two sons keep telling me how lucky I am. They point out that they will be paying for my pension when I'm 65 by working into their 70's. Only work available for them currently is either part time or temporary contracts where they can be called in to work 2-3 days a week.

My sons enjoy a day at the races, but, the only time they go now is when I'm paying. Entrance to the premier enclosure at Newcastle and drinks / meal before hand costs me £100+ before we have a bet.

I'll not start on Newcastle racecourse again.

PAULBU
What you say about the tic tac wont be far wrong.Quite often when having my pick as to where I stand I'll go & have a look at where a particular pitch is & whose standing there.Instead of walking back to the busy (if the right ones on)I'll just tic tac it to him.He knows what I'm saying but I don't think many of those standing around understand.The son & I still use it quite a bit when pointing.

paulbu,it's joe huddlestone btw,lol.

ribero, do you keep any field money or are you at the earn on the exchanges?

Ribero1
At least I got the surname right, he was no 1 pitch next to the rails.

What you bookies have experienced on-course is nothing more than an industry dying in much the same way that the heavy industries, mining and manufacturing have disappeared, to be replaced by new technologies, new consumers, new markets. It's painful for those involved and being nostalgic is all that you will be left with.

Funnily enough, what is happening on the exchanges now is a version of what you are have experienced but on a faster timescale.

The exchanges came along at the right time for many backers like me who couldn't get on anymore with off-course firms, and even some on-course layers who closed accounts when credit was still the thing. Even on-line betting became a no-go area as accounts were closed by the big firms the moment that any punter was recognised as being even halfway clued up.

Now on the exchanges, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that the straight backer has his card marked. The commission and PC charge penalises that player far more than the trader who has no especial love of any particular sport, especially not horses.

The big money now and probably in the future is being won by traders in price, whether automated or not,not backers of outcomes of events. First pass the price not first pass the post is the new motto.

Getting reasonable size bets on BF must be left until the very last seconds pre-off ; spoofers abound, IR specialists with time and tech advantages cream off the money there. As a backer I have had to change my ways to take on board these changes. When I go to the races now I see how difficult it is to be just a backer of one or two horses and to be successful. I'm too ancient now to become IT savvy enough to compete so I guess in a few years there will be people like me saying much the same as you guys say now. Ah, yesterday was better.

i was under the impression you had to hold money to win wee eck? i do now edge on the exchanges as got fed up of people earning out of me although still do hedge in the ring as well but i can't be bothered approaching most of them for a bet nowadays as they either don't understand or think you atre shafting them.
a friend rang me last sat at chester and asked if i could get him 1k e.w on something,not schnide either but i said basically impossible as nearly the whole ring is either 1/6 or just wouldn't lay me,before anyone pipes up there are obviously exceptions but basically it would have been a lot more effort than it was worth.

no worries that's me paulbu but i wasn't there yesterday,it would be paul who you spoke to who like me used to work for leslie steele in the distant past.

I don't think on-course bookmaking is dying.  I think it is changing.  We have just got to get used to the fact that we have to deal with a lot of small bets now rather than the larger bets of old.  Racing is now a day out for groups at the weekend as the racecourses have done an excellent job of driving away the racing enthusiasts and previously die-hard fans.

spot on sandown and you can include the car game as well,my best pal was in it in a big way getting plenty and is now reduced to flogging a few on the internet.

ribero, I have been led to believe that a good living can be made by

laying and then having it back on the exchanges, is that incorrect?

ribero1, it's a small world as they say.

Betfair has messed it up for the ring , thats a fact. But speaking as a punter it has vastly improved my chances of winning .

indeed paulbu,wee eck,plenty do,one prominent firm have everything back and are obviously pretty good at it but in general not enough money about for that practice imo.

One of the major problems re racing is, the for the ordinary punter, the

horrendous costs of attending, as you know recently I have been going quite

often and last month my costs in actually attending were over £900 a crippling

amount.For me  Exes up by 50% betting down by 90%, no brainer.

With Petrol and trainfares taking hikes in the last few years along with the price in attending its no wonder that the £20-£50 punter doesnt get out there so much

zilzal, rising costs, unemployment, exchanges, lack of interest by the younger generation

are sounding the death knell for many racecourses the big ones on big days will thrive, the

smaller ones in time will become housing estates.

Myself and three mates are looking at going over to the UK for an extended racing weekend (Friday to Sunday), can any bookies on this thread, tell me what are the realistic chances of getting a bet on the course, 2k range regardless of price, or are we going to be restricted to certain lower priced bookies.

Gandalf if you are form book men you will still get substantial bets on

with many firms especially if they can have it back on the exchange.

i was at goodwood in the summer friday 15 april to be exact , evening meeting , there was a very old guy , jewish looking , he was very tall ,  and not very nimble , stood at the end of the line ...he was calling the odds all night , i had a word with him during racing  a lovely man and a real old fashioned bookie , cloth cap and all....he was at brighton on the monday night as well i'd say he'd be near 80 ...anyone know him...

PAULBU,U SOUND LIKE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN GOING TO THE RACES FOR YEARS,WHY ON EARTH ARE U STOOD NEAR PICK NUMBER ONE WHEN IN MOST CASES THERE IS NO VALUE TO BE HAD WITH FRONT LINE BOOKMAKER,SHOP AROUND MY FRIEND,SHOP AROUND,PUNTERS HAVE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD,BIGGER THAN THE MACHINE AGAIN ALL DAY AGAIN TODAY NO COMMISSION,NO PREMIUM CHARGE.PS OH AND U CAN BE ON.

that should read 15th june...

workrider, there was a bookie in the North, Ralph Harris betting when he was a 100.

Workrider - Probably Steve Gibbs -

Should have given the game up years ago.....

thats him racecourse regular thanks...

feck me miprixabloater thats some age to be out and about , never mind standing all day at the racetrack....

old school, he is hoping the times he knew will return

Mrprix, its always been older people, i remember a show in the States where Christ and Watchmaker were discussing this and how in the 60s, people were saying, where are all the younger fans going to come from?

very old school alright , i'd say he loves the game to be still working at his age though...

factmachine, I do shop around the ring, the only reason that I had a word with the guys on pitch 1 was that they looked the most intelligent. In fact, the only bet that I had yesterday was with a layer in the row further down from the rails. He was going 11-4 when everybody else was 9-4, 5-2, SP was 3-1 although I never saw it. So I collected from a bet that in the long run would see me in the poor house.

Two good points from yesterday were the £6.50 entry fee into Tatts and Reg Hollinshead winning the last.

PAULBU,WITH YOUR WINNINGS GO TO SPECSAVERS,AND A HEARING AID MIGHT NOT GO AMISS,AS FOR THE WINNER U BACKED I WAS THE FIRST ON THE PLANET TO GO 11/4,FINISHED 3/1 WITH ME.

factmachine
You're a punter's dream.

In answer to original question,bookmaker's access to exchanges  should never have been allowed on the racecourse.With so much new blood in the rings now,with pitches having been sold freely,95% of "layers" could not price a race up.
In addition,bookmakers are scared to stretch a price for fear of the trade wanting layed.A ludicrous situation.

anyone would think this factmachine guy was some sort of king of the ring reading the rubbish on here,only one who lays a bet etc,walos.

re ralph being 100,bit of exagerration there miprix.

having had the pleasure of betting next to Mr Factmachine, whichever poster suggested shouting louder should be sent to the stocks

thats me done, back Thurs

ribero1 he's added the vat to his age

ribero, I was under the impression that he was in his 100th year when he done it

the telegram from her Majesty was to be handed to him by Lord Zetland at Redcar

races where he, Ralph, was something of a fixture.

ribero I was also under the impression that Ralph was making a book when Morry Peters was

at elementary school.

tbh miprix i'm not sure but would have thought mid 90's,the family were unlucky as he died about a year before the buying & selling,even if he had dived in and sold straight away as he obviously would and paid about 15% commission they would have been sure to cop for at least half a million.

ribero so you do agree that at the very worst he was betting into his mid 90s

which in itself is no mean feat, I am sure he told me he 1st stood on the stool

just after the 1st World War.   How long do you think he has been gone?

97/98 he died for sure.

ribero, frightening how time flies. Do you not bet at Haydock?

I agree with ribero1.  In the good old days there were a lot of miserable old b*st**ds on the stool and working for them.

If anybody watches the RP Greyhound channel I see Sid Hooper got a mention when betting in the cheap ring at Catford Dogs

racecourse regular

re steve gibbs,great to bet next to you get a right laugh from him,anybody tries to get a nicker e/w on gets sent packing in no uncertain terms.

31 in tatts today at haydock! yes i do wee eck but not involved myself until tomoprrow.

Jimnast - Great to bet next to you can take 3 bets to his 1,  why he bothers I really don't know, can't let go I guess

I know Gibbs from many years ago, he had a pitch at my local dog track at Catford where I was a regular for decades. One day at Brighton he refused me 16 ponys when it was showing on the board around 1982.
He said 'full up on that one son' and scrubbed it off and he knew me!

youn should have asked for the bits slippy!

HAYDOCK TODAY,BUSINESS USELESS,16 RUNNER HANDICAP OF THE EIGHT BOOKS ON THE FRONT LINE 6 OF EM 1/5 ODDS,KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BOYS

talking about old aged bookmakers.in 1974 there was a bookmaker who bet
in the front line called BOTTLES at york races he was about a 100 years old
he wore a bola hat.arrived at races in a rolls royce shofa driven anybody knew him
or anything about him.my father was a bookie at the time. i said to him one day my father
does he know what is going on bottles  my father said he is as wide as a barns door even at his age.

can only bare to read this particular thread on blue now.
real stories from real people about their profession.
who needs reems of waffle on certs anyhow.
always wanted to be an on-course bookmaker - completely at
odds with what i was supposed to do. one day perhaps and it
seems there is no age restriction either.

good luck gart,hope it works out for you.

thanks very much ribero , maybe one day i might do it.