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Clearly a champion horse but the question still remains if he is the greatest of all time why do connections feel the need to have dodged So You Think at Ascot which the majority of lot have rubbished for 12 months on here as being a massively over rated pretender?
Of course he would have beaten So You Think and I'm not for one minute arguing that he wouldn't have but by the same token why dodge him and yes make no mistake, they clearly dodged him and went for a much easier event at Ascot.
Farhh is a very nice horse, probably the best Godolphin have had for some time and arguably the best he's encountered this prep but until Frankel encounters genuine top class Group 1 performers Danedream, Nathaniel, the star 3yo Camelot etc in the Arc and thumps them then you can't logically argue that a horse whose connections continually refuse to take on the very best and who have cherry picked his races in order to protect his reputation is the greatest of all time.
The greatest of all time confronts every challenger and beats them convincingly, they don't beat up on the same horses or same type of horses time and time again, horses who are good horses but far from great ones.
And please don't bring up the ridiculous ratings that have been given to him which are clearly bias when you have the people who set them publicly stating in interviews how much they love the horse, ever heard of making an unbias assessment.
If I owned a horse this good there would no hesitation, you take on the best going around, confront them and dispose of them and then there is no argument as you have truly earned that ranking of the greatest of all time.
Bart Cummmings knew how valuable So You Think was after winning his second Cox Plate in succession something only the very best achieve then he backed that up with a demolition job of his rivals in the Mackinnon Stakes 3 days prior to the Melbourne Cup.
Yet Bart didn't try to protect the horses reputation he ran him in the Melbourne Cup because that is the Australian way, we don't hide from a challenge and if anything the courage that So You Think displayed after pulling ferociously, as hard as I've seen any horse pull in a Melbourne Cup and still perform well, proved categorically that his performance to still finish in the placings was simply outrageous.
He didn't lose any value in defeat, if anything his value was enhanced as astute racing people knew his performance was nothing short of outstanding under the circumstances and that he ran into a great stayer in Americain, who enjoyed a perfect trip in running and who was ideally suited by the track conditions and who was at the peak of his powers.
Clearly some in the UK do things differently though and rather than embrace a challenge, they avoid it.
Black Caviar who you lot have also rubbished, didn't shirk a challenge despite a long arduous record breaking racing season, her trainer and connections travelled halfway around the world and put her reputation on the line and she still won despite being injured and beat a genuine Group 1 star in Moonlight Cloud and despite this they have also been rubbished ever since, even though she won.
Ortensia's connections have gone to Dubai and conquered and now to the UK and conquered and still the "greatest" horse of all time can't even leave his own backyard and confront his destiny by simply crossing the channel and taking on genuine top class horses away from his comfort zone for the first and only time in his career in order to irrevocably erase any doubt over his place in history.
Of course he would have beaten So You Think and I'm not for one minute arguing that he wouldn't have but by the same token why dodge him and yes make no mistake, they clearly dodged him and went for a much easier event at Ascot.
Farhh is a very nice horse, probably the best Godolphin have had for some time and arguably the best he's encountered this prep but until Frankel encounters genuine top class Group 1 performers Danedream, Nathaniel, the star 3yo Camelot etc in the Arc and thumps them then you can't logically argue that a horse whose connections continually refuse to take on the very best and who have cherry picked his races in order to protect his reputation is the greatest of all time.
The greatest of all time confronts every challenger and beats them convincingly, they don't beat up on the same horses or same type of horses time and time again, horses who are good horses but far from great ones.
And please don't bring up the ridiculous ratings that have been given to him which are clearly bias when you have the people who set them publicly stating in interviews how much they love the horse, ever heard of making an unbias assessment.
If I owned a horse this good there would no hesitation, you take on the best going around, confront them and dispose of them and then there is no argument as you have truly earned that ranking of the greatest of all time.
Bart Cummmings knew how valuable So You Think was after winning his second Cox Plate in succession something only the very best achieve then he backed that up with a demolition job of his rivals in the Mackinnon Stakes 3 days prior to the Melbourne Cup.
Yet Bart didn't try to protect the horses reputation he ran him in the Melbourne Cup because that is the Australian way, we don't hide from a challenge and if anything the courage that So You Think displayed after pulling ferociously, as hard as I've seen any horse pull in a Melbourne Cup and still perform well, proved categorically that his performance to still finish in the placings was simply outrageous.
He didn't lose any value in defeat, if anything his value was enhanced as astute racing people knew his performance was nothing short of outstanding under the circumstances and that he ran into a great stayer in Americain, who enjoyed a perfect trip in running and who was ideally suited by the track conditions and who was at the peak of his powers.
Clearly some in the UK do things differently though and rather than embrace a challenge, they avoid it.
Black Caviar who you lot have also rubbished, didn't shirk a challenge despite a long arduous record breaking racing season, her trainer and connections travelled halfway around the world and put her reputation on the line and she still won despite being injured and beat a genuine Group 1 star in Moonlight Cloud and despite this they have also been rubbished ever since, even though she won.
Ortensia's connections have gone to Dubai and conquered and now to the UK and conquered and still the "greatest" horse of all time can't even leave his own backyard and confront his destiny by simply crossing the channel and taking on genuine top class horses away from his comfort zone for the first and only time in his career in order to irrevocably erase any doubt over his place in history.
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Every form line says he would have stuffed SYT.
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The OP agrees he would have beaten him but wonders why he is avoided the race.
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That's the trouble Sparrow, no one is arguing he is not a great horse and a champion and one of the best but the Frankel lovers can't see logic when it comes to the opposition that he has disposed of.
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Queen Anne was always the plan....no-one dodged no-one....nothing to see here
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yawn
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The horse needs to go for the Arc to attempt to silence the doubters. I myself would be happy to lay the odds on, as long as the opposition turns up. The worry is that many other trainers seem to believe he is unbeatable.
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The worry is that many other trainers seem to believe he is unbeatable.
And what do these guys know, right? |
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Surely the trainers over there aren't that cowardly that they would avoid the Arc if frankel heads towards it, I wouldnt have though coolmore would avoid it with Camelot if he knocks off or finishes a close second to frankel surely that makes his reputation, nor could I see danedream's connections avoiding it nor nathaniel's as both Nathaniel and Danedream have been specifically set for the Arc as far I know.
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Sparrow,his targets were set out at the start of the season,he ran in them all,dodged nothing.
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It was up to others to come and get him.
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Oh please, if you're the best, you take on the best and clearly for whatever reason they have consistently refused to do so, you can't hide behind preordained campaigns as an excuse, surely they can come up with a better excuse than that one.
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Treebeard, the targets were too cautious and he ought to have been stepped up in trip far earlier. Then we might have seen some proper competition.
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It makes no difference,the horse doesn't exist that can beat him anyway.He would have turned any others away in the same manner.
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As i always say to people,name the horse that could touch Frankel and i have not had one reply.
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If BC is the best horse i the world, why doesn't she face Frankel over a mile???
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Wouldn't even race him over 7 and we know why after Ascot.
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What horses does Frankel need to beat?
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You won't get an answer A-T,I HAVE TRIED.
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couldnt agree more Sparrow after all he only beat nathaniel, narrowly in the first and only time that they met in a maiden over an unsuitable trip for Nathaniel.
Clearly they have some doubt however small that a horse such as Nathaniel might end his unbeaten run, and while Nathaniel is a top class horse no one would rate him as one of the greatest of all time with what he has achieved to date. So there must be at least some question mark in his connection's minds that he can defeat nathaniel or danedream etc etc which brings me back to my orignal point is that you cannot logically declare Frankel the greatest of all time until he takes on and defeats the best going around currently and clearly to date they have continually refused to do so. |
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That is utter nonsense,Nathaniel could have run in the Juddmonte but goes to Ireland.You have no case.
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Black Caviar had endured a long arduous campaign and then travelled halfway around the world and still conquered a genuine star in Moonlight Cloud while injured and clearly at the end of her tether and is missing our lucrative spring carnival as a result because it was clearly so uninjured as others on here have attempted to claim.
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Why did Nathaniel connections choose Ireland over Juddmonte
Coz in the Irish Champion they have a chance of winning another Group 1 as Nathaniels eclipse form with Farhh/Twice Over shows he wouldnt have had a prayer in the Juddmonte Some folks really are p!g sh!t thick. |
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Insults the last resort of those are unable to effectively counter a logical argument.
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that should read as the last resort of those who are unable to effectively counter....
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You should know,coming from the aussie forum.
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Slightly off topic, but equally valid about dodging races, and this is named at OP why did Makybe Diva eve go overseas other than her Japan Cup loss???? And two of the best Aussie horses ever Octagonal and Lonhro never raced overseas. Ok Pharlap did and got poisoned, but Octagonal vs Dancing Brave in the Arc would have been fun......
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It wasn't on the radar at that stage air transport wasn't as readily available and no doubt the the racing world has narrowed since those days considerably octagonal was a great three year-old a very very good horse and very much loved in australia but is nowhere our greatest horses of all time. The same goes for lonhro, also a truly great horses but nowhere near our best.
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Let's just say that aussie horses are as good as the rest of the world regardless of the ratings and then we can all get along.
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Canford Cliffs ?
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And?
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Been there,stuffed that.
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Canford Cliffs, no doubt a very good horse but unfortunately he broke down in running in their only encounter and never raced again so that wasn't any indication. But he and nathaniel are clearly the best two horses frankel has encountered to date.
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I'll give you that Pharlap was a freak, and I was at the 2004 Australia Cup when Lonhro won after being checked twice and he is still my all time favourite. Would have been nice to see him against New Approach. I also just shed a tear when I saw Mummify in that race, because I was there whe that dreadful incident happened at Caulfield.
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Tragic what happend to Mummify never like to see that happen to any horse let alone a good one.
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And why did Kingston Town never leave the country and would just target the Cox Plate, at what can only be described as a gaff track?
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And why did Kingston Town never leave the country and would just target the Cox Plate, at what can only be described as a gaff track?
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Canford Cliffs, no doubt a very good horse but unfortunately he broke down in running in their only encounter and never raced again so that wasn't any indication
Form book suggests Canford ran to his form nice story tho from the Coolmre PR machine for a hoss being retired to stud . |
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How far did an experienced 10f horse like So You Think beat Farhh at Ascot on Farhh's first try at the trip in a race where SYT's 10 rivals had won only 3 Group/Grade 1 race between them? What was the manner of victory like? By 2¾L is the answer and was all out to do so with heavy use of the whip from 2 horses yet to have won a Gr1, with Farhh's run described as:
Reared as stalls opened and slowly away, dropped in behind, headway on inner 2f out, not clear run over 1f out until inside final furlong, good headway and switched left inside final furlong, going on strongly at finish How far did a first try at 10f Frankel beat Farhh at York and experienced 9 times Group/Grade 1 winners from the other 8 runners and bear in mind 3 of those were pacemakers and unlikely to have won any Gr1s? By 7L hard held on the bridle and the jockey carried the whip as a fashion accessory. Anyone who thinks Frankel wouldn't have beaten So You Think is either an Aussie, a victim of Thatcher's Care in the Community or both! |
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Again we have always raced for real prizemoney and he was a gelding, plus all the transport, logistical issues etc and there was never any need to.
There is never any need for Australian horses to travel to the UK and Europe unless they have potentially huge stud value or if they don't have stud value it's an owners ego trip because of the outstanding prizemoney available in Australia far outweighs the pittance they can earn racing over there. Your horses rarely travelled the globe back in the days of Kingston Town either. |