Frankel is a wonderful horse but..

Don't like to put the daggers into such an exciting horse and brilliant miler but we have a programme where overall, the most fiercely contested races are in the 1m2f to 1m4f range and down the years horses that may could feasibly have stayed and been a force in the big mile events have stepped up in trip and not returned; Nijinsky and Dancing Brave would have surely mopped up the big 1m events,Sir Ivor and Sea The Stars possibly too. There are many,many other too - even Reference Point would have taken some beating over a stiff mile with some give in the ground and we'll never know how close he would have got in the GNS, if that had been on the agenda.

Versatility can't be measured in ratings but Frankel, who will at the most appear no more than three or four more times on the racecourse needs to be tried over further. And tried does not equate to 'chanced' - if he did not have the staminia reserves then what he has already done will not be taken away from him. Finishing a career on what is a low at the time does not take anything away from the previous achievements - no one thinks of the BC when looking back at Dancing Brave, or the Arc and Champion with Nijinsky, or all three with Montjeu, or Shergar at Donny, on the same note no one puts Golden Fleece in the equation when talking of middle distance greats just because he retired unbeaten.

It won't happen but if Frankel was allowed to take his chance in the Arc, he would have that platform to achieve what without being corny would be greatness in the soul of racing fans and not just figures. We could then reel off a list of names that finished behind him that would possibily include a triple Crown winner amongst last years Arc winner and KG winner, the Eclipse winner......and not just citing visual brilliance allied to a wide margin of superiority over Excalerbration.

And as for David Redvers when interviewed at York on Saturday stating that Frankel was the best horse he or anyone had probably seen and how much good it was doing for racing and putting it on the front page of the national newspapers, then he ought to consider this.........if Frankel beats Nathaniel by ten lengths in the Juddmonte, and on the same day Robin Van Persie joins another club, then there would probably be 10x the amount of words written about the RVP story in the national press the following day.

As has been said before, the highest performance rating does not translate as "the greatest".

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camelot is a 12f horse anyway, sna is also a 12f horse, these horses show their best form over 12.

Interesting that you've decided that when Camelot has never run over a mile and a quarter ever.

Frankel is not going a mile and a half and there was never a suggestion that he would.

well i dont need to see him run over a mile and a quarter, just look at either of his derbys. hes going for the leger, im right.

hes by montjeu, the horse powers away from rivals at the END of 12f races.

i have little doubt that barring mishaps Frankel will round off his career with 2 impressive 10f wins but still the doubters will persevere as they always do.

he is a horse of staggering ability imo & not believing what you see is just delusion.

yes i know there was no suggestion he would ever go 12, thats the problem, zero ambition. the first to win the the sussex twice lol. great achievement that it is, it hasnt happened because any decent horse thats not an out and out miler goes UP in trip fairly quickly.

Marcce, I think you will find a few of the 'pundits' will start to raise questions after Frankel has retired. It is not exactly De Riguer at the moment with everyone acclaiming him for his greatness. And I have on ly started mentioning the Arc because he cannot exactly run in the Eclipse now can he?
And I have raised it with Timeform.
I sent them all of the calculations and they simply said there are more horses racing now so the probability of more 135+ rated racehorses is higher and therefore winning the races must be harder.
How ridiculous is that?
I then wrote back and said that over the past 5 decades, according to their ratings, there were roughly 9-10 135+ rated racehorses per decade but in the last decade there was only 3. And they were Harbinger, Sea the Stars and Frankel.
They then said 'we will have to agree to disagree' and left it at that.

northanlite
01 Aug 12 22:37
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07 Jun 04
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i have little doubt that barring mishaps Frankel will round off his career with 2 impressive 10f wins but still the doubters will persevere as they always do.

he is a horse of staggering ability imo & not believing what you see is just delusion.




i agree with this but even winning the last 2 doesnt make him better than say nijinsky. what he achieved is more incredible than frankel. likewise sea the stars for that matter. would frankel beat sts ober a mile? yes.

but could frankel win the guineas derby eclipse, judd irish champ, arc..no imo.

Timeforms ratings are a complete joke at the best of times,we have gone from Harbinger being the best ever,rated on one solitary race to Frankel being mooted as the best ever despite 8f being the furthest he has run to date.

He would imo destroy anything around at the moment over 10 or 12 but the downsides to him actually doing it would be Timeform ramping up his rating again and his detractors still saying he has beaten nothing.

It is a no win situation for the horse unless he smashes a couple of track records,btw his time today was very good considering he was eased.

Brigust, what do you make of the calculations for Dancing Brave's high rating? I find it strange that many people who query Frankel's high rating don't use the same microscope regarding DB. I will say his Arc was one of the most exciting races I've seen and I know we're always told it was the strongest field ever assembled but the close proximity of some of the relatively ordinary horses behind (Mersey, Darara, Saint Estephe, Dihistan, Iades etc) does not equate to such a high rating.

Yes Brigust but he's just about to run in the Juddmonte it seems. Over slightly further than the distance you wanted him tried over at Sandown in fact.

Are they trying to say with the number of horses racing now the sample pool is actually higher?

I wanted him to run in the Eclipse bcause it would give them a chance to cinsider and plan for the Kin g George or/and the Arc. I actually wanted him to run in the Prince of Wales. The race Brigadier Gerard won by 5 lengths breaking the course record by a second and beat the Irish Derby winner giving him 15lbs.

When Frankel beats Nathaniel et al with ease at York, the sceptics on here will have to use 'not run over 12f, so can't be the best' as reasoning (albeit delusional).

Yes they are trying to say the sample pool is greater in number but their stats do not back that up. They also tried to refer to the time in the Queen aNne but I pointed out that the new track had been graded evenly and special inter-twining grasses had been used specifically. They didn't answer that one.
Then there was the fact that the going description at Ascot was G/S yet the Clerks own going stick reading was 8.3 which, according to their own figures at the track, is nearly G/F.

When Frankel beats Nathaniel et al with ease at York, the sceptics on here will have to use 'not run over 12f, so can't be the best' as reasoning (albeit delusional).

We do actually seem to be heading right in that direction it seems.

At what point was the Derby never on Frankel's agenda?

I've said already in the thread is was the manner (key word there) of his 2000gns win and then thinking they had a Derby horse in World Domination that they kept Frankel to a mile, but plenty of winning and placed guineas horses go for the Derby, as do plenty of Royal Lodge/Dewhurst winning 2YOs with often the winners of those going into the winter as Derby favourites.

Also just by merely saying the Derby would have ruined Frankel doesn't make it true and there's very little evidence to support that, just as if Sea The Stars being by a miler Cape Cross had been kept to a mile would the Derby have been claimed to potentially have ruined that horse?

I don't for one second believe Henry has ANY fears about ANY rival Frankel might face...he may have his reservations about the C&D he will race over or the going, but there's NO chance that they'd pull out of the Juddmonte if it started to look competitive, and the group one giants stood their ground.

He wasn't out of a canter today and I'm not exaggerating in stating that the margin of supremacy over Farhh could easily have been DOUBLED if he'd been pushed out - I wish the ratings buffs would pipe down a bit because a 12 length victory on decent ground would surely have gone off the scale!

He will pulverise whoever turns up at York and I'd pay out of my own pocket to see Camelot bummed on the Knavesmire - the Coolmore team are far too smart to let that happen.

I've said this a few times on here (without any real response) but I have concerns about the C&D of the Champion Stakes but absolutely NO worries about York, as there'll be not far off FIVE furlongs to get into his rhythm in the straight, whereas at Ascot, the turn is precisely the stage where on a straight track he'd be busy crucifying the field, and no horse is at full pelt into a bend - it'd be a big disadvantage to compromise his main asset, just as it would be to a sprinter's speed being blunted on heavy ground.

I agree with the previous poster VL in wanting him to go for the Arc (to silence the doubters once & for all) and for the reasons mentioned, a defeat at Longchamp is ALWAYS forgiven, so there wouldn't be much to lose, except of course his unbeaten record - his achievements will NEVER be forgotten.
I could reel off plenty of superb horses that've been well beaten in the Arc that the vast majority of punters & pundits wouldn't remember, such as Generous & Reference Point.

This colt is terrifying all worthy opponents away, so criticism like 'he's beating nothing' is a damned insult!
Maybe the best we can hope for is that proper group one horses in the future will be regarded as yardsticks after the 10 length bruising I'm anticipating in the Juddmonte - he will ransack the best over that C&D and I have NO doubt he'll see out the trip in style.

We've almost turned full circle Ima. You see it all depends on what the connections had in mind. When they sat down to discuss his races does it not look to you like they planned it solely to keep him unbeaten or do you think they planned it to find out just how good he is? I think it clearly looks like the former.

What size field is everyone expecting at York?

These are the entries: Bullet Train, Cirrus Des Aigles, Daddy Long Legs, Dancing Rain, Farhh, Frankel, Imperial Monarch, Jet Away, Monterosso, Nathaniel, Planteur, Robin Hood, Sri Putra, St Nicholas Abbey, Treasure Beach, Twice Over, Was, Windsor Palace.

ima Cecil is on record saying the Derby was never an option because the horse wouldn't have coped with it. He is also on record saying just how difficult it was to settle him at that stage of his career.

Now he's not just saying that for effect and has trained many thousands of racehorses in his time. So I think he knows what he's talking about.

And as I've said many a time on here the connections of the horse know exactly what issues they've overcome with the horse at home. Nobody on here has that advantage.

That's the problem Navel,it's your opinion and not fact. STS winning the Arc is a fact. Had Tudor Minstrel not run in the Derby, for which he was long odds on, everyone would have said he would have won, but he ran and didn't. That's a fact. And in today's race as soon as Frankie dropped in behind him the race was over. They went steady for 3 furlongs then a just sprinted away. I think the only horse he has really seen is his pacemaker. I do hope AOB sends St Nic over with a proper pacemaker like Treaure Beach because it would be good to know. I want to actually SEE it I don't want to rely on others telling me what would happen IF.

Obviously a bit of both Brig, though it does have a bit too much cotton wool about it.
I want to see him in the Arc and I think there's a squeak of it happening if as anticipated, it takes a furlong or so for Queally to pull him up at York.

What I don't want to hear is more criticism when he beats in all likelihood just the one top rival at York by a distance!
You couldn't blame them for missing the Arc to preserve an unbeaten record, but if instead he goes for the Champion Stakes, then that would be two races over 10f+ that NOBODY could question.

Andrew in Sweden
01 Aug 12 22:54
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10 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 1,573 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog
When Frankel beats Nathaniel et al with ease at York, the sceptics on here will have to use 'not run over 12f, so can't be the best' as reasoning (albeit delusional).




but some horses have done it over ALL trips, so if frankel doesnt do that then how can there be any delusion? if most top class horses were campaigned like frankel, theyd prob still be unbeaten. frankel has beaten the same horse in half of his entire races over the SAME trip. what is the fooking point of this. most wouldve beat them a couple of time then went on to bigger and better things.


since when has a trainer outlined the champion stakes and not the arc as the end of season target for the absolute greatest uk and irish horses that have ever lived?hes winning INFERIOR races to others that are being running the same country ffs.

this is a fact!

the POW and eclipse were much better races than the sussex, they were always going to be better races andwould the ENTIRE FORUM not agree that frankel running in these races and winning them be much more beneficial for his reputation in cementing his legacy and giving everyone a better handle on his ability? would everyone not agree with this? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION

I wouldn't argue with those comments Brig, but I just don't think a tag-team from Ballydoyle can stop him at York...whatever the tactics!

Brigust, what do you make of the calculations for Dancing Brave's high rating? I find it strange that many people who query Frankel's high rating don't use the same microscope regarding DB. I will say his Arc was one of the most exciting races I've seen and I know we're always told it was the strongest field ever assembled but the close proximity of some of the relatively ordinary horses behind (Mersey, Darara, Saint Estephe, Dihistan, Iades etc) does not equate to such a high rating.

York is a flat galloping track and is left handed. When Brigadier Gerard was beaten by Roberto they knocked 2 seconds off the course record and BG was giving him 11lbs. Rheingold was 4th beaten, according to Timeform, 17 lengths. And Rheingold won the Arc by 3 lengths beating the brilliant French filly Allez France who won the Arc as a 4 year old the following year. They went flat out from start to finish. Nothing Frankel has done so far can compare.   

I cannot compare Dancing Brave's races Figgis because he never ran consistently over a mile whereas both Frankel and BG have. That is why the difference stands out so clearly.

Can I also add that this, Juddmonte, was BG's 6th race in 12 weeks during which he had won the Lockinge, Gordon Richards, Prince of Wales, Eclipse and King George. The King Goeorge was his first and only race over 12f and on rainsoftened ground, carrying alnmost a stone more he got with 3 tenths of a second of Mill Reef's course record. He was also drawn 1 and had to race up to 4 horses wide all through the race.

Personally brigust1 I think having won the Royal Lodge/Dewhurst at 2 and being by Galileo they were going to go the 2000gns then Derby but because of how the horse won the guineas where he probably would have won most Gr1 sprints based on how far clear he was at 5f and 6f, they worried that he would have too much speed for the Derby (some said the same about El Gran Senor, Dancing Brave and Nashwan too) or that he would pull too hard and others were saying he couldn't make all in the Derby racing like that but who said he had to make all to win it? The horse had never made all in his 5 previous races and the fact that they finished in a bunch in that year's Derby with Pour Moi, Treasure Beach, Carlton House, Memphis Tennessee and Native Khan all finishing within touching distance suggests the race was there for the taking and none of those are exactly world beaters either.

In response to back to back wins in the Sussex Stakes ilikewavingatbuses, Canford Cliffs would have done that but for Frankel and Richard Hannon described him as the best horse he's trained in 40 years.......and on another note, does that mean he can't really make that call because CC was "only" a miler and never raced over farther? I get that your point was that it doesn't have the same effect as winning some of the longer races but it's still an achievement that many others have failed at.

I know it's only hyperthetical but if Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Nashwan, Dubai Millenium, El Gran Senor to name but a few had taken the Frankel route they too would have easily achieved what he has. Whereas it doesn't apply the other way round.

Why is EVERYONE so reluctant to discuss the very relevant point I make about the C&D of the Champion Stakes being detrimental to Frankel's chances?

You may be right Navel but the Juddmonte is next and they haven't ruled out the QE11 either.

Nashwan doing what Frankel has done over a mile? Brigust, that's almost as bad as your Irish Derby comment

But at what stage of Frankel's career and after which race did Cecil say that Marcce?

I very much doubt it was at the end of his 2YO career.......

In fact I've just checked something and this article after the guineas win dated 1 May 2011 shows nothing was certain at the time but any doubts only seemed to surface after the manner of the guineas win, which is the point I was making.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/may/01/henry-cecil-derby-frankel-ascot

ilikewavingatbuses 01 Aug 12 22:04 Joined: 06 Jun 09 | Topic/replies: 27,170 | Blogger: ilikewavingatbuses's blog
i thought frankel shouldve run twice over 10f as a 3 yr old, then queen anne start as 4 yr old, POW, Eclipse, Judd (or irish champion) and final run over 12f in the arc (all this assuming he stayed and won the 10f races which he wouldve imo). id he then won the Arc there would be no denying he was the greatest horse that ever lived.


Give Sir Henry Cecil and Khalid Abdullah a bell - I am sure they could do with a helping hand. As , between them in their various and combined racing exploits over the years I am sure they could have done with a bit of help. I am thinking of maybe Slip Anchor, Reference Point, Dancing Brave , Workforce, Rail Link, Ardross, Old Vic, Warning, Indian Skimmer and so on.

I am sure they'd be delighted with your input.

With a horse like that they would be crazy not to be thining about the arc , a race henry has still to win

agreed

yes ima but canford cliffs is just a miler, it doesnt matter what hannon says. canford is no better than say rock of gibraltar .

we are comparing canford to the BEST HORSES EVER and they won at ALL distances so why shouldnt we take their corner and 'crab' frankels domination of one horse in excelebration for HALF his entire career. the only other creditable challange was canford and that was last year.

the others beat the best over EVERY distance.

would u not agree sna is a batter horse over 12f?  would u no0t say nathaniel is a better horse over 12f? so as much as i want frankel up in trip, he STILL has something to prove if he beats them at york IF we are going to compare him to the BG, DB, nijinsky, sea bird. would u not agree with this? it doesnt matter how good a horse LOOKS, if they never actually take part in the specific races we will NEVER know! frankel is consistantly MISSING bigger and better races and challanges then he is taking part in, i dont see how this can be disputed personally! todays race was laughable.

its a debate YDC. what are we supposed to do, just agree with each other u little t.u.r.d! lets have a scrap!

now fook off rent boy!

Brigadier Gerard did not beat the best horses over 12f, not that I believe that should detract from his performances.

yes but he ran over 12. like frankel is a great horse, but hes hasnt even run beyond a mile yet and half of the best races have already been run and the arc isnt even on the agenda. hes not running in these races because theyre afraid to see him beat! hes getting walkovers since last years sussex (also a walkover) . isnt it clear by now hes the best miler? hasnt it been clear for a LONG LONG TIME? so why are they lining up again and again v excelebration when there are better races at 10 and 12. better horses and bigger challanges!

if this was o brien training him the forum would ALL be agains his campaign, would u agree with that?

I dont think so ilwab , i think we would all just appreciate seeing him race , unlike camelot supposedly the best they have had but hiding it in poor races

It would be nice to see a change but are those horses really that much better? A line through Nathaniel's hard fought half length defeat of Farhh would suggest not.

i appreciate him too hello, i just think he can achieve so much more than he has. i dont see why we all just have to use the usual 'im just happy to see him', 'we're v lucky to have him' etc

why is everyone just happy to see him beat up milers all the time?

camelot is already a guineas and duel derby winner. i agree the competition is absolutely disgraceful but they are ducking anything imo.

do u honestly think camelot could beat excelebration over a mile? because i dont. the industry isnt talking about camelot as the best ever. if frankel went up to 12 i have no doubt aidan would have camelot in against him, nathaniel, sna , etc etc with the belif that they would beat him. do u not think this?

yes figgis but that was over a mile, the longer distance will help the others, whether they are beaten even further or not.

Where does is say though that you have to be versatile to be the best?

I'm sure Australia think Black Caviar is one of their best ever going by her number of wins and manner of them (bar the last lol) and yet she was campaigned exclusively to sprint trips except one 7f race, which is a bit of a hybrid distance but can you not say she was a better horse than So You Think or vice versa in a general overall belief as opposed to a like for like comparison?

I'll admit I'm taking things to the extremes here but it would be a bit like saying Carl Lewis wasn't a better athlete than Daley Thompson because one was a sprinter and long jumper only, whilst the other competed in the decathlon but Lewis was clearly the better sprinter and long jumper and had the better PBs in the individual events they both competed in.

Immortal Verse was a credible opponent to Frankel too but you can't really blame the horse for beating Excelebration the number of times he did as he wasn't just beating that one horse, he was beating all of the others too and they total around 60 from multiple countries and were multiple Gr1 winners and in any other season(s) Excelebration would be lauded as the top notch horse that he is.

Off course it would be good to see better opposition , its just not there at any distance though when it comes to frankel

So i just think to myself what it would be like without him racing this year and appreciate what i see off him , lets face it nothing will take him on in the juddmonte anyway

its just assumption until we actually see it!

yes thats a probability alright, if nobody shows up thats cant be his problem, hes coming up so if they dont try to take him on then its not his fault, hes giving them the chance to expose any weakness.

Even Henry, The Prince and his teams biggest fans must be a bit disappointed Frankel didn't take in different races, I love Henry but you've got to ask a question or two when inferior horses i.e Camelot have achieved things Frankel didn't, it's great to see Frankel still in training but the 300+ years of breeding these horses has been based on them facing and passing different tests in their classic season.

The best horses over 12f against Brigadier Gerard were the 3 year old Derby winner and 2nd, Roberto and Rheingold and the only older horse he didn't meet was Mill Reef. He beat Rheingold easily in th Juddmonte and Roberto never truly stayed the 12f. Plus in the next King George the horse BG beat, Parnell was desperately unlucky not to beat Rheingold and he did beat Roberto. Mill Reef broke his leg so couldn't run but BG nearly broke his course record carrying 14lbs more and on softer going so the clues are all there. In his KG he did beat 4 other classic winners, the best 3 year old in France and the best 3 year old in Italy plus the Irish Derby winner to name but a few.

If Frankel was falling over the line when winning his mile races that would be one thing but do you honestly think the likes of Side Glance or Farhh would have tuned around an 11L and 6L when eased beating with another 2 furlongs?

Bar the exception in the St James's Palace race and a limited amount due to being in front so long in the 2000gns, Frankel certainly hasn't been stopping at the line in his races and has been going away and there's very little to suggest he won't get 10f and 12f is very likely too based on breeding, with his full brother Noble Mission needing every yard of 12f.

Good to see you posting again brigust , even though your wrong

you're Hello. You're.

no ima i dont which is why i want to see him go and DO it instead of talking like theres no point because he'll just win anyway. what kind of attitude is that?

the sjp was just poor jockeyship, if any horse takes up the running 6F out asking for their maximum they wont win, frankels is such an exceptional horse that he could actually hang on and win.his final furlong was 14 sec ffs, pathetic ride, still won!

Btw ima there was plenty of speculation/information before the article you mention regarding doubts about the Derby etc.See the Dont get sucked in by Frankel thread.

*you're , apologies , poor graamur has no place on such an important thread , i will get my coat

Brigust, they could've taken on Mill Reef in the Derby but ducked it because they had doubts about his ability over 12f, not that there's anything wrong with that.

figgis can u name another horse in history with frankels ability that was half way in to their 4 yr old career and still hadnt seen beyond a mile?

It is so unlike me, Hello, but I cannot see where I am wrong.

I think Frankel is one of the best racehorses I have seen. But not the best. And I think Frankel should have been campaigned more enterprisingly. Why is that wrong?

And was the SJP a pathetic ride or did it put doubts into their minds about him staying? If he was a true stayer he would have cleared away yet he beat Excelebration who I think is a 7 furlong horse by his least margin. Can you be sure it wasn't the furious pace that beat him?

Sorry Figgis, they were unsure about the undulations at Epsom. He became unbalanced racing into the dip at Newmarket and was on the wrong leg for most of the final furlong but still won 3 lengths.

brigust the ride in the sjp was laughable, excel hasnt been sighted since riding frankel more conservatively.

I'd always read Hislop regarded him as a doubtful stayer, even Joe Mercer said he didn't really stay when on tv yesterday.

your bet is safe tho brigust , was it 6/4 you got ?

yes figgis but do u not think they should have had a go before now? they are afraid to get him beat, its sad.

You should admire henry for having the strength to keep a nigh uncontrolable headstrong horse from the derby

Im sure he knew inside it could do it

He is a real man of a Horse now and  imo it would be almost impossible to engineer his defeat  over  ten furlongs  but that leaves the real possibility that neither the International or the Champion  will be properly contested events  this year  and that would be  a shame for racing

If we are honest with ourselves there isnt anything out there that would keep up

I know Joe thinks that but I keep telling him he is wrong. The 2000Gns apart that was his best success imo. He beat the Irish Derby winner by further than the POW and he was a strong stayer. He beat Riverman further than he beat him in the Champion and the time was exceptional on the ground. I think the Eclipse he won on heavy ground 2 weeks before was more of a factor than they think.

No 7/4 with PP, hello. I will be laying him in his next races to protect my stake.

if he thought he could do it he'd have run in it!

I certainly want to see Frankel run over 10f and then 12f ilikewavingatbuses because I would stake anything on it that he does.

On other matters, the pacemaker couldn't get to the front in the guineas and so the jockey on it went OTT to make sure it did in the SJP and so was worthless to Frankel both times but Queally panicked when the pacemaker had gone on so far and started to ride his finish from halfway and you can't sustain a burst of speed for that long a distance.

If Excelebration doesn't stay a mile (which he clearly does) then nor do any of the multiple Gr1 winning milers that finished multiple lengths behind either.

If he was mine I would have ran him in the Derby, but that's just based on what I saw on the racecourse, those closest to him said he was difficult to switch off and I would have no reason to disbelieve that. Cecil had no such qualms about running against the best and keeping Oh So Sharp unbeaten when he ran her in the KG and I don't believe he's scared of the opposition this time, he obviously didn't believe the horse would show it's absolute best over further until later on in its career, I don't necessarily agree but neither do I have a problem with it.

That 7/4 looks massive now , good forsight

If it had bolted off in the derby with the undulations and turns it could have ruined the horse trying to win it

Im glad henry had the sense to protect the horse , and as you are seeing it was the right decision , next 2 or 3 races will prove that

I've seen all of Frankel's races and have yet to see him bolt off in any of them and certainly haven't seen a nigh uncontrolable headstrong horse.

If the horse bolted off then it wouldn't need a pacemaker as he would be doing the job for himself, he just needs a good even gallop, which is something he would have got in the Derby but didn't get in the 2000gns or SJP.

Is it possibly a bit unkind on the horse to suggest that it couldn't be controlled enough to get settled for a longer trip? way back before even the Greenham Henry said he had matured mentally and was more relaxed and settled.

ima he pulled very hard in the Dewhurst and he doesn't wear the cross noseband for no reason.

The quotes from Cecil I mentioned earlier were from this year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/02/frankel-sell-racing-henry-cecil

the dewhurst ffs.

Maybe im wrong but i dont think the pacemaker got a chance to hit the front in the guineas

the dewhurst ffs.

I sense you have something really enlightening to say there.

he was 2 and there was nothing wrong with his dewhurst run. thats a really BAD argument for him not going up in trip. the guineas wouldve been a better example , other than that hes run perfectly. he made his own running in last years sussex and settled perfectly! all horses pull now and then.

This has been no normal project do you understand that ?

When something like that lands in your hands it must change your perception of everything and find it hard to believe and think the way you always have

henry said very early on it could be the best he had seen , not one of the best , but the best

When a man like that comes out with a statement like that you must wonder what its like for him to be responsible for the horse , it must be frightening the responsobility , frightening

Easy for us to say ffs get him in the derby , but the man has handled this once difficult horse for 3 years now and its still unbeaten and sound , give the guy some slack this aint no ordinary horse were talking about

The point made was that he hadn't seen the horse be a nigh uncontrollable headstrong horse in any of his races.

My reply was that he pulled very hard in the Dewhurst. Nigh uncontrollable? Maybe not but certainly headstrong enough to have been a concern that day. And if you wanted to push it further I don't really think it was in the plans to be 15 lengths clear at halfway in the Guineas either.

And the difficulty in getting him to settle seems to have been the main reason they haven't gone up in distance before now with him.

Exactly macce , if you have doubts about any horses temperament upping it in trip is a worry , esp as a lot off horses have left thier seasons in a hard derby , henry is to good a trainer to let that happen to frankel , thank god

In the guineas frankel told tom he was going , it wasnt other way around add four furlongs to that attitude and it can go badly wrong

frankel is no more headstrong than any other horse ever. any semblance of a TINY bit of pulling and its completely blown out of proportion, so much so that hes half way thru his 4 yr old career and hes still running over a mile.

i agree he wasnt ready for the derby!

It's quite simple really. The reason he hasn't stepped up in trip before now is because they're not 100% confident he'll stay.

Neither owner nor trainer have shown any reluctance to step horses up in the past. You can't blame them for having doubts because he turns in sprinter's fractions having already covered 5 furlongs. It's freakish speed and as hello says, they won't have ever had a horse like that in their years of owning and training. By all logic that kind of speed screams that he wouldn't stay another 2 furlongs and added to the possible issues they've had in settling him you can see why they would have question marks.

And Cecil will have seen loads of horses that never came back from being asked a question too far. That being the case it makes perfect sense to wait until towards the end of his 4 year old career before asking that question given they were quite clear they weren't going to go beyond a mile from early on last year.

Thanks for the link Marcce but as I suspected, the main concerns for connections were after the 2000gns so the Derby would have been on the agenda at stages before that. Frankel was last one out in the Dewhurst and didn't hit the front until the 2f and yes he has been a bit keen early in races at times and mostly in his earlier races, but he's soon settled well enough and is a big bull of a horse and I've not seen too many with such a big and stocky chest and he just seems to love racing and wants to get on with it but I've never felt that applied to the extremes with pulling too hard.

The key thing though is that other than a Derby, most of the other top races you get more than one chance to run in if kept in training but you only get one chance in a Derby and plenty of other horses have run in it and then dropped back in trip if need be and whilst I have the greatest respect for Henry Cecil, there was probably a mixture of retrospective regret and irritation on being asked why he didn't run in the race to his reply.

Yeah hello :-) Frankel did make all in the 2000gns and the pacemaker never got to the front but once Queally bounced out in order to find his pacemaker and that one couldn't get to the front, he has nicked a bit of a lead and so he had the choice to carry on or rein back and waste that lead but the horse never looked to me out of control and just has a high cruising speed. The pacemaker in the 2000gns just wasn't good enough to give Frankel a lead and did the complete opposite in the SJP by going too fast and then was replaced by Bullet Train and has also since been sold to Chubby Chandler and Lee Westwood.

but u cant truly find out until u try it.if every trainer had this mentality towards their horses, none would step up if there was any doubt ehich there often is.  oxx had the same doubts with sts and look what happened with him.

seems to be diff regarding frankel. if frankel was beaten by nathaniel in his maiden ive no doubt he'd have stepped up by now!

I agree and have made the STS analogy a few times before in that being by a miler in Cape Cross, if they had kept him to a mile then everyone would have been saying he wouldn't have stayed 10-12f.

As for Frankel and his fast times, they clearly wouldn't be going at sprinter pace in a Derby anyway and so wouldn't have been ridden like that and he could quite easily have missed the break and then covered up behind runners, just as he did in all of his pre guineas races but all of that gets forgotten and his career history rewritten as if his guineas run was the only style of running he had ever shown up until then.

Then subsequently look at how well he settled early in the SJP until halfway when Queally panicked or how he made all in the Sussex Stakes first time without tanking off and then wound it up gradually from the front. In the QEll he was reined back and kept in behind others until he settled, even though he wanted to go faster.

well thats it, they would be going slower fractions over longer and he can jog when others are off the bridle such is his ability so i just dont realise why they werent tempted to go up sooner.

i believe he wasnt ready for the derby but IF he was mine i think i wouldve been tempted anyway, i mean his guineas was amazing and if he didnt stay then atleast then youd know. its also not beyond the realms of possibility that he couldve won, then what? youd know he stays, they couldve brought him back to 10f for a few races then had a crack at the arc.

Queally went off too fast in the Guineas and then went even faster.
It was the worst ride I have ever seen ina Classic and nobody has ever picked up on it.
Queally gave him a bum ride in the St James Palace as well.
Q gave Wrotham Heath a lousy ride at Ascot and nobody said a word.
A bum jockey.

Queally went off too fast in the Guineas and then went even faster.
It was the worst ride I have ever seen ina Classic and nobody has ever picked up on it.
Queally gave him a bum ride in the St James Palace as well.
Q gave Wrotham Heath a lousy ride at Ascot and nobody said a word.
A bum jockey.

Can I say what a brilliant thread. Loads of different opinions and no abuse. I'm sure everyone went to bed agreeing or disagreeing but feeling they put their points across. Just what a forum between horseracing fans should be.

I disagree with Taffy though. I think TQ rode the Guineas as was agreed and, by doing so, it is one of the races that is still talked about. I'm still not sure what happened in the SJP. After that all the way win in the Guineas taking it up before halfway shouldn't have been a problem and that may be where Cecil's reluctance to step up earlier lies. In most of his races since he and his pacemaker have dictated terms just like work at home. Things may be different in the Juddmonte.

I think the horse needs another season to really stamp his greatness. Next season he could unleash himself in the Eclipse and the Prince of Wales. Just to add a few more colours to his rainbow.

The Prince does not need the money and Frankel will be at stud for a long time. Racing needs to see more from Frankel.

Don't think there's much chance he'll stay in training beyond this season,
When there's an unbeaten record on the line it's usually a no brainer to retire them asap.

I think the fact Frankel won the 2000gns so easily suggests that Queally didn't go off too fast and much of the thinking behind why some say he did was a mixture of the lead he built up so quickly and then imagines of the upsides TV camera, but he always looked comfortable in a high cruising pace and naturally got a little tired at the end but it's not as if he fell over the line hanging on by the skin of his teeth.

My own take on what happened in the SJP was that the pacemaker couldn't get to the front in the guineas once Frankel broke so well with the pacemaker drawn in stall 13 of 13 and Frankel in stall 1 and because they have to keep straight for the first part of the race before they can come over, Frankel got out fast so that he could track his pacemaker and be clear enough to get over towards him but in doing so got out so well that the pacemaker was unable to get to the front and so Queally ignored him and set his own pace.

In the SJP the instruction for the pacemaker must have been to make sure he got to the front at all costs but they probably went a bit too fast and built up a 10-12L lead and Frankel settled so well that Queally was worried that the pacemaker had got away and with the pressure of the unjustified stick he took for the guineas ride, it looked to me as if Queally didn't want to take the chance and let the pacemaker get away and so chased him from 4f out and was then treading water at the finish.

Earlier in the thread I posted the following:

"I've said this a few times on here (without any real response) but I have concerns about the C&D of the Champion Stakes but absolutely NO worries about York, as there'll be not far off FIVE furlongs to get into his rhythm in the straight, whereas at Ascot, the turn is precisely the stage where on a straight track he'd be busy crucifying the field, and no horse is at full pelt into a bend - it'd be a big disadvantage to compromise his main asset, just as it would be to a sprinter's speed being blunted on heavy ground"


I have to concede that I might have been a bit TOO concerned about the C&D of the Champion Stakes, as the electric turn of speed Frankel showed at York showed he can pick up instantly, he's already won twice around the Ascot bend (albeit in weaker company than he'll probably face on Champions' Day) and after witnessing the evidence at the Knavesmire, I NOW can't see it being a problem.

His 'winding-up' style, crushing the field with his relentless galloping power has disguised the brilliance of his push-button acceleration.
It was evident in the Sussex last year more so than in any of his other races prior to York, that he could quicken instantly when asked, but I'm sure Cecil was once quoted as saying something along the lines of 'he didn't have immediate powers of response' - can anyone confirm that?

PS - does anyone think there's a chance that if the ground turned up very soft he could be switched to the QE II instead?