Scrap limit on £100 gambling machines in bookies' say MPs

Loadsa Phillip Davies twitter accounts, including a "work hard/play hard insurance broker," and a Phillip Davies who, "Just like hanging wit my bros and taking s**t to the next level." Is there a link to Phillip Davies MP, please?

@PhilipDaviesMP
@GSutcliffeMP
@LouiseMensch

Thank you, Escobar.

Watched a programme a while ago where the reporter was trying to interview people as they were heading in to a fund raising dinner for one of the parties.They managed to get a few words out of one of the attendees..a representative of the Bookmakers Association.
So you see,we really do live in a democracy. All you need is the money for the £800 a head dinner and you too can have the ears of Ministers.

These companies are so powerful, and so well run, that pretty much everyone who isn't a punter is now one of their helper monkeys.

'Prey for Mojo', imo...

Louise Mensch is an effing disgrace. Obviously clueless. Maybe one day she will be a consultant to Laddies???

Please tell me : is the roulette random? ie if you bet on number one, do you have a 1 in 37 chance of winning, or is it FIXED? I suppose they may be called FIXED odd betting terminals for a reason, but PLEASE TELL ME!

anyone who believes that the numbers drawn on the machines are random needs some serious help

are roulette tables in casinos fixed?

would suggest no and casinos make buckets form their limited turnover.

KingG, I thought they must be fixed because punters lose so quickly. But it seems wrong that they are fixed, but they are called FIXED ODDS, so there's the clue I suppose.

The machines are programmed so that, in the long run, it's impossible to win....

anyone who believes that the numbers drawn on the machines are random needs some serious help

There are enough factual arguments against FOBTs without having to spout this nonsense which simply serves discredits the whole argument

i read a report on these type  fruit type machines and they are programed so that you nearly win , i.e enticing you to put more  money in .the bottom line is they are there to make money , my son manages a billys and a customer/fobts player had 3 restuarants about a year ago ,he now has 1, my son said 2 have gone in the machines .

Jul 24, 2012 -- 12:46PM, millhouse wrote:

The machines are programmed so that, in the long run, it's impossible to win....

Yep, its called fixed odds with negative ev.

These machines are awful. No wonder the conservatives are encouraging gambling on them - another way of taking money from desparate, poor people. Help people with gambling addictions, who are losing their life savings and hopelessly in debt? Not this government.

Although I guess they were introduced under labour.

millhouse     24 Jul 12 08:09 
Below is the list of MP's on this committee, who collectively believe that less regulation of FOBTs would be a good thing for the people of this country.

I can remember Sutcliffe presented the trophy on Ladbrokes behalf for more than one World Hurdle.

Davies, according to the list of Members Interests, accepted hospitality from Ladbrokes on the 16th and 17th of March at the 2011 Cheltenham Festival....


5. Gifts, benefits and hospitality (UK)
Name of donor: Peninsula Business Services Ltd
Address of donor: The Peninsula, 2 Cheetham Hill Road, Manchester, M4 4FB
Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: One year’s subscription, valued at
£4,680
Date of receipt of donation: 1 June 2011
Date of acceptance of donation: 1 June 2011
Donor status: company, registration 01702759

This company is run by Fred Done's brother.

Jim Sheridan's includes

5. Gifts, benefits and hospitality (UK)
Name of donor:  Scottish Racing
Address of donor : Hamilton Race Park, Bothwell Road, Hamilton ML3 0DW
Amount of donation or nature and value if  donation in kind: racecourse pass for 2012,
approximate value £1,800
Date of receipt of donation: 11 January 2012
Date of acceptance of donation: 11 January 2012
Donor status: company, registration number SC207648

Surprising lack of the usual bookies apologists on this thread for some reason. They usually can't wait to spout out about how great they are.

No need to even venture towards this about them being fixed - they do not need to be.

These machines are ruining people daily, smashing lives and families apart. This latest news is horrific, I really never thought the situation of "bookmaking" could get worse over here but it has.

The only thing that would be worse would be if they scrapped the 100 pound maximum spin and made it say 500 maximum with a maximum win of 2.5k.

The Gambling Commission should hang their heads in shame also as they really do know the truth about these machines but they appear to be as immoral as the utter scum and filth that are pushing these machines.

So if this evil amendment goes through,there will be even less chance of getting a couple of hundred on a horse/football match.

Yes but an increased chance that someone you know will kill themselves due to getting addicted to these things and blowing their lives away.

I guess racing gets a kind of cross subsidy. The fobts make money which finds its way back into racing so the BHA accept the cash regardless of the suffering of those who lost it!!!

Excellent read lads, good work.
Maybe one of the hard hitting no nonsense racing journalists like Alan Lee can get to the bottom of it.

The Gambling Commission should hang their heads in shame also as they really do know the truth about these machines but they appear to be as immoral as the utter scum and filth that are pushing these machines.

Spot on.


The fobts make money which finds its way back into racing so the BHA accept the cash regardless of the suffering of those who lost it!!!

None of it goes to racing Blades.

Adam Smith would be all in favour.

What's the difference between 3 LBOs next to each other on the high street or 1 with 12 machines?

Great thread.  Thoroughly agree with the general sentiment.

clive - nothing at all really.

What line of work are you in?

Head of public relations - Ladbrokes

So in other words you aren't prepared to tell the truth?

Blades ---- but horse racing t/o in shops decreases because stakes are diverted to FOBT's.In turn,that means less for the Levy.

I'm not sure occupation is relevant that's all. Such a question tends to lead to the usual expression of imaginative thought that only those getting paid by the gambling industry can defend it as a legitimate industry.

I sat in a meeting with representatives from the gambling commission last year and they were there to listen to the concerns from a wide spectrum of people concerning problem gambling. I knew I was wasting my time and walked out. Nothing since has shown me they give a flying fcuk about the problems of compulsive gambling to society at large.

No problem , basic question - answering would allow myself to make judgement.

I have worked in the industry myself but I am no longer part of it, glad to be detached daily from people like yourself.

I imagine the industry is better off without your puritanical Daily Mail inspired nonsense.

With regards problem gambling didn't the industry raise £5million for research and treatment last year. How much does Weatherspoons donate to AA or McDonalds donate to fat people??

You have no idea what I have seen and what I had to endure clive - I am happy to discuss it over the phone if you wish to contact me? I can forward you my number via direct message if you like?

'With regards problem gambling didn't the industry raise £5million for research and treatment last year.'

Is it not a fact that we are one of the few countries where it is not compulsory for bookmakers to put aside money for research and treatment.

It should be mandotary.

if you go into mc donalds with 50 quid you can only eat so much food however fat you are ,same with witherspoons even if you are an alchoholic you can only  drink  so much untill eventually you pass out and have had enough ! these machines can take a persons months wages in minuets !

Clive...Or should I call you David/Ciaran/Richard...Delete as Appropriate.

Slightly off topic, but obv if more machines, hence possibly more profit, does that mean your firm will reopen closed acc's and lay a bet in future?

1.01 its a no

Why add the additional beuracracy and cost to the process by having a statutory levy when the voluntary scheme is meeting it's target?? Surely that money is best spent on actual positive outcomes.

My point was the industry donates £5million voluntarily and yet still gets pillored for operating what for the vast majority of people is a pleasurable leisure pursuit.

The Daily Mail inspired cranks seem to be all for free enterprise until it comes to Gambling. It's pathetic.

jbbrfc - Your right I have no idea and no interest. But if you are anti gambling it's best not to work in the gambling industry.

Prevention is what is needed here, pure and simple.

The prevention being a ban on all of these. I know what will come next - that it is just as dangerous online. Ban the lot of it, hardly feasible but on the whole England would be a much, much better place for it in the long run.

That is fine clive, I have no interest in people like yourself either. Duly blocked.

i would love to see some kind of claims like the banks for the ppi scandel introduced and the people who have been hooked on the fobts are able to sue the bookmakers ect ! wont happen i know but would love to see those responsible hit in the pocket !

Total prohibition?

Well we've certainly got the blueprint from 1920's America, that worked out well didn't it?

Its seems other than ourselves and Mexico governments are tightening their controls on gambling.

I must have read 6 or 7 different blogs today on the subject and I dont think I have seen a post welcoming this.

Even amongst the FOTB players I dont think I have seen one call for the stakes to be raised to allow them to lose their money quicker

I wouldn't fancy working in a bookies these days with these machines in there, they seem to be able to bring out the worst in some people when they've taken there money, i'd like to know the stats on the amount of violence brought on by some of the nutters who've done there dough in these things....not pleasent for the staff having to deal with them.

I would say it isn't very pleasant for the family of people also who are addicted.

These machines bring out the worst in human nature:

Frustrated addicts willing to do anything to get the next fix. I am sure you mind can work out what that means.

A Government addicted to the tax they generate. Meaning they are turning a blind eye to the problems they are creating and actually condoning the increase in FOBT use.

"Bookmakers" addicted to the profits they generate. Meaning these firms are happy to push and push and push them to increase players - using any type of method. I am sure you have all heard of the various methods they use now from giving out free bets to losing self exclusion forms on purpose so that players continue to play.

If you were to speak to most regular players many will say they wish they had never played them and that they would be happy to see them banned. Some more than others obviously but I am sure this would be case if asked for many players.

I think they do need controlling if not banning but they won't be because the extortionate profits have been used to buy out the less than honourable members.

Some things never change.

i'm in the industry, certainly not anti gambling but have to endure or watch on a weekly basis.........

1)the addictive nature of these machines that makes someone who is winning a few hundred pounds not to print his ticket but continue to play until he has nothing left and emptied his pocket of every other penny he has.

2)someone chase his loses on his debit card until he has nothing left

3)older horse racing punters who cant come in any more because they cant go a day without playing them.

4)people of all ages getting themselves in such a state that they act in a manner totally alien to them

and please dont tell me i have a duty of care to these people, 90% of staff will like i do, tell them to print the ticket when they are in front. discourage them from continually using there cards, try to get them off them when they clearly are in distress.

so clive from your ivory towers you have no doubt never seen this, or will admit it goes on but it is the norm, nearly everywhere so please stop the condescending replies

Clive82 seems to think that a policy of aggressively  encouraging people to gamble on FOBT's on which it is impossible to win is all just fine, so long as you give back a slither of the money you milk from them to help solve the problem that you created in the first place...

clive82 - heard anything from Marina Hyde recently, she certainly sussed out your character didn't she?

'With regards problem gambling didn't the industry raise £5million for research and treatment last year. How much does Weatherspoons donate to AA or McDonalds donate to fat people??'

If you are who you say you are I find the above statement absolutely disgusting and in part explains how out of touch you are.  How much of the £5m (really) went to people who were victims of crime that can be directly related to FOBTs?  How much of the £5m went to Ladbrokes employees who have been directly affected by FOBT related crime?

Hang your head in shame.

I have come across a lot of people like clive and none I would want anywhere near anyone I care about. These people are awful and deserve no respect, it is best to ignore them and keep them out of your lives.There are plenty of good people left in the industry, the problem is there are plenty of bad people and only the Government can stop them.

My golfing partner ( a well known lower league pro footballer )came into my shop one afternoon (2005) to tell me he was off on his honeymoon the next day..to cut a long story short he left two hours later totally skint with tears running down his face after spunking 2k in the fobt..i even turned it off half way through his session but he threatened me if i didnt allow him a chance to win his money back..subsquently i found out he cancelled his honeymoon..so glad i am out of the shops ..would not go back for  any ammount of money now.

We've had a few on here, but Clive must be top of the pile when it comes to the most pathetic apologists for our 'bookmaking' industry imo

What's really scary Aviboyd, is that clive82 genuinely seems to believe the PR misdirection he is trying to peddle us, imo...

Bookmakers should be careful what they wish for. The problem they will have is that with introducing further FOBTs into 'bookmakers' is that they basically cease to become bookmakers for which they have been granted planning consent and I am already aware of one local authority that would be happy to contest whether a bookmakers full of FOBTs was operating in line with the original consent and would not be prepared to grant a change of use.

spot on dealer i dont work in the industry but i have seen the haunted look of hopelessness  as they leave the shops skint and totaly dejected  women of all ages young lads and older men who know they have no control over this addiction !

I have to say I feel uneasy going into most bookies to collect any cash winnings (particularly city centre ones) for fear of someone hearing you being paid out and following you when you leave.

Escobar - this move should in theory result in bookmakers requiring reclassification as casinos.  Not just for the machines alone, we shouldn't forget the plethora of 'keno' style numbers games that are available to play in these establishments under the 'fixed odds' banner.  However as we have already established the lobbyists have control and as such the situation with FOBTs and high street bookmakers will continue to impact on local communities to an even greater extent.

millhouse - I can't believe this clive82 is who he says he is.  To come out with a statement like that in public would not only be condemned by Ladbrokes but could only result in disciplinary action imo...

Avid... i think you might be right about him but strange they havent pulled the thread.

Escobar, I would have thought also that if they are no longer going to lay bets to people, as they clearly no longer feel they have to do, there's a strong argument for a state run mechanism to be instituted.

We'd obviously all be better off if this had actually happened in 1960...

Why the need to exaggerate? If the machines are the cause of all this evil surely there will be ample evidence to support rather then having to rely on the mumblings of a discontented cashier or someone relying on the Daily Mail to inform their views on gambling policy.

You can lose more on a 30 secs dog race then you can on a 30 sec roulette spin.

If you don't like them don't use them, in fact if you don't like bookmakers don't use them. But don't be so arrogant as to presume you have the right to deprive normal people from participating in a perfectly lawful activity.

I'm sure plenty of you are happy to take mug money off members of the public on Betfair.. How much do you contribute to problem gambling charities??

"Bookmakers should be careful what they wish for,"etc..A tremendously valid point,Escobar.

clive82 • July 24, 2012 4:35 PM BST
Why the need to exaggerate? If the machines are the cause of all this evil surely there will be ample evidence to support rather then having to rely on the mumblings of a discontented cashier or someone relying on the Daily Mail to inform their views on gambling policy.

if that was aimed at me, 32 years in the industry and a multitude of jobs and secondments at a senior management level. so once again you seem to make the wrong assumptions about people

"...i have seen the haunted look of hopelessness  as they leave the shops skint and totaly dejected  women of all ages young lads and older men.."

How do you know they've not just lost their cash on the Irish Lotto? Are you proposing we ban that as well?

don't be so arrogant as to presume you have the right to deprive normal people from participating in a perfectly lawful activity


Yes, how dare we try to 'deprive' people from losing millions upon millions of pounds a year to the bookmaking industry...

Spending millions.. What else will you deprive people from spending money on?

You are very out of touch clive with the gaming industry to me.

I will give you the opportunity again to give us your job history in the industry please? So we can relate to what you are saying and possibly share experiences/common ground.

You can lose more on a 30 secs dog race then you can on a 30 sec roulette spin.





No you can't as you won't facking lay the bet on the dog

clive82 - you are clearly an advocate of 'freedom of choice'.  'Choice' is irrelevant in the context of an addiction, something you would be able to appreciate if you understood anything whatsoever about the subject at hand...

No you can't as you won't facking lay the bet on the dog

Clive you should have mentioned that they add to the gaiety of the nation and also included some claptrap about Magna Carta and what your Grandad fought for in WW2

Job history isn't relevent.

How many people have worked in government? Yet they still hold perfectly valid views on the Government of the day.

You don't have to have worked in the industry to know total prohibition of betting is absurd and a deprivation of an individual's personal freedom to spend their money how they wish.

What other areas of people's lifes do you want to control?

If Clive is not in the employment of one of these firms, then he must have something seriously wrong with him to be on here peddling the lines that he's coming out with imv

So a cashier has as much right to a view as a woman shopping who has never had a bet or someone in the role of Nick Rust currently?

Just you seemed to suggest they didn't before.

What other areas of people's lifes do you want to control?

People talking complete boll ocks on this forum.

As previously offered, more than happy to speak over the phone or meet in person. What part of the country are you located please?

Do you appreciate not everybody who uses FOBTs is addicted to them.

Legislating for all based on a tiny fraction of the adult population would see the prohibition of alcohol and tobacco.

Yes i'm all for personal choice because I also have personal control. Why should I be penalised?

Clive,do you advocate the legalisation of class A drugs?

So are you saying that FOBT's have a positive affect on your life? Do you consider playing an FOBT a leisure pursuit of yours? If your son/daughter/brother/friend/father/uncle was regularly playing FOBTs as oppose to playing Football/Snooker/Golf/Swimming/Running would you feel that was positive and encourage them?

Yes i'm all for personal choice because I also have personal control. Why should I be penalised?

In what way would you be penalised by bookies not being allowed more machines or higher stake limits?

Maybe he gives his relation/mates sons etc a 25 quid fobt voucher for their 18th birthdays

If Id known what the industry would become Id never have got involved over 20 years ago.  It's bad enough to now have no opinion as a trader/compiler and having to duck and dive around the betfair prices and knock back pony bets.  Thankfully I have no direct involvement with these shameful FOBT's but I think being a bank manager is more interesting than this game now.

The only firms in the uk that appear to have a regular opinion now to me levithian are the independent ones that I think only offer phone or trackside betting now.

I know of many Traders/Compilers who are utterly clueless on Sports they price up and they mainly admit it themselves. In Play is obviously the new wave and 95% of that is simply babysitting an excel sheet that chucks out prices via a link to a tablet that a scout presses from a stadium, many "Football Traders" do not even see the match they are doing and do anything from four to eight matches at a time daily.

p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y 24 Jul 12 16:48 Joined: 08 Dec 11 | Topic/replies: 3,104 | Blogger: p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y's blog
You can lose more on a 30 secs dog race then you can on a 30 sec roulette spin.





No you can't as you won't facking lay the bet on the dog



This is so true

He meant a race at Millersfield ffs!

If Clive is what he says he is, his English isn't half sh1t for one in his position. Maybe that's indicative of the whole "industry" of course, especially the top half.

Clive, you should team up with that Paddy Power clown who was on tv last week on Undercover Boss think his name was Derek,it is quite clear you have never seen the inside of a Betting Shop,your post of 16.35 shows your ignorance on the subject.

if you can bet any number on a fecking fobt to win a monkey you should be able to bet anything in the fecking shop to win a monkey at the price it is trading at... the bookmaking industry within the last 10 years has turned into nothing less than the eqv of legalised drug dealers because of these rancid machines

Clive82 wrote....I'm sure plenty of you are happy to take mug money off members of the public on Betfair.. How much do you contribute to problem gambling charities??

Another ludicrous statement. It's an anonymous transaction on a public exchange, whereby the backer or layer is happy to agree a price, because he/she feels that they have value at the point of confirmation.
We also pay a commission to participate on this site, they in turn have their own corporate responsibility towards the issue of problem gambling, so much so that their investment has received redognition:

GREaT Foundation Gold Donor of the Year Award - January 2010

The GREaT Foundation - the gambling industry's charity for raising funds to support research, education and treatment of problem gambling - named Betfair as 'Gold Award' winner at its Annual Awards.

here is one point some of you may of missed

i myself hate these machines
but i hate even more the restrictions they impose on you if you win online or in shop

if this 20 fobt per shop rule happens then this might happen

in my town there are loads of bookies there is 1 koral 1 paddy 2 stan 2 lads 3 fred 3 hills all within 5 mins walking time between each one but obviously more if you walked between them all

most of the time the less popular are empty most of the day and even shut early ie 6.00pm or 7.00pm when the rest are 9.30pm that tells you they are not busy and therefore 20 fobts in their shop aint going to change that fact

but if they govt want more tax of the fobts then the bookies to reduce costs in my opinion would then have free rein to this to the shops in my town

lads has 2 shops they would close one saving on staff wages overheads etc as would stan fred would close 2 saving even more than lads as would hills they would close 2 that then would leave koral and paddy whose overheads in that town would stay the same but would the extra machines mean they would get more revenue i doubt it as lads has 20 so does hills so does stan so does fred

at the moment the shops i've mentioned there are 4 fobts per shop and thats from 12 shops = 48 but dont forget about half of them close early as there is no trade

then the 20 shop rule happens and the bookies cut costs and close the unprofitable shops that would be 6 shops in all and a 50% reduction which would please the so called councils that run our towns on our behalf

out of the 6 shops left they would have 20 fobts each for a total of 120 compared to at the moment of 12 shops with 4 each for a total of 48

you do the maths

The last time I visited a bookmakers I saw a middle aged lady, who shall we say, was a little mentally challenged. I didn't take any notice of her until I started hearing her sobbing and  saying the words "Oh no what am I going to do" over and over along with "I have no money for food" But, she kept on playing for a few more minutes. I guess in the hope she'd win back what she'd already lost? After the last 10 pound was gobbled up in a matter of minutes she left sobbing. Us shrewdies on here know that these machines are to be avoided at all costs. But, what about the type of vulnerable people I've just mentioned and others with a low IQ who don't understand how the odds are so stacked against them winning? Surely they deserve some protection from these vultures who are preying on them and getting very wealthy in the process.

Surely they deserve some protection from these vultures who are preying on them and getting very wealthy in the process.

Bookmakers treat their supposed duty to protect the vulnerable as something they only have to pay lip service to.

Still, it's fine, because they give a bit of money to Gamcare as Clive has so happily informed us.

A middleaged  woman was playing a machine, after losing all her money she pleaded with me to not let anyone go on it till she got back from the cash point...I declined but one of her fellow addicts stepped in to help.

Saw some pr bloke from Ladbrokes calling it a "leisure pursuit" yesterday.

It costs more than getting a high class hooker for the night if you have 10 consecutive maximum losing spins ffs

Only on betfair can it be deemed spending money on brasses is morally better or more worthwhile than having a few lumpy bets on the roulette for a bit of fun.

its not just on  the fobts  ,you only have to watch the t.v in the afternoon and evening and in the commercial breaks  you have these  online  bingo sites foxy,pink ,sunbingo , ,ect all targeting woman and the vulnerable .

A fool and his money will always be parted.

having been a gambler for many years ,i can remember when i was younger doing best part of my wages on payday  a few times  in the bookies (but i only had my pri*k to keep so to speak, so no family to worry  about  )and back in those days it was weekly pay so not too long to wait till the next payday ,but most people are paid monthly nowadays and it must be a long hard time especially for family men/woman once you have done a months pay in the fobts .

pixie

surely you can see my point!

No. What was your point?

It doesn't matter.