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The operator has confirmed that you placed a without the favourite bet on 29/04/2012 for Richie Ramsey to win the Ballentines's Golf Championship prior to the start of Day 4 of the event. However they state the price quoted at the time was clearly incorrect.
There he is saying the bet was placed before the start of the final round! |
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jbbrfc 16 Jul 12 17:34
Price was 18/1, other firms were less but only by a few points - such as 14s and 12s. Bet was settled as a winner in full but not voided until 36 hours after it was settled as a winner, no e-mail notification sent at all of bet being voided. We have ascertained since you posted the above that the 18/1 at the time you struck the bet was incorrect (as per the post below): leviathan 17 Jul 12 13:06 Joined: 04 Dec 03 | Topic/replies: 543 | Blogger: leviathan's blog I used the final round tee times and scorecards to have a rough guess of how they stood after Ramsay was through 13. -15 Wiesberger -11 Ramsay -10 Dubisson -10 Fraser -10 Jimenez -9 Fisher -9 Coetzee -9 Noren -8 Wall Quite a bit of guesswork involved but 18/1 was obviously the wrong price. Therefore I'm a little concerned that you saw 14/1 and 12/1 with 'other firms', it would seem the bookmaker with which you have the dispute are not the only bookmaker to have made a right horlicks of the IP W/O Fav market. Either that or you are fully aware that you took advantage knowing it was a 'palp' and are now trying a last throw of the dice to get paid out by kicking up a stink on here. I'm afraid looking at the evidence I withdraw my previous best wishes to you at getting paid and you should except the fact the bookmaker has the right to refuse payment at the 18/1. Whether they should have voided the bet in its entirety or not is another matter. Cheers. |
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If this lad by the firms own admission had the bet before the start
of the 4th round and the price he obtained was 18-1 and the same player was offered at a lesser price elsewhere is just hard cheese for the layer, the layer must pay up he has not got a leg to stand on. As gambling debts these days are recoverable in law I would give the firm in question one last chance to pay up or sue, imo you cannot lose on the evidence you can produce. Best of luck. |
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Indeed wee eck but they will produce evidence that the bet was not placed prior to the fourth round. The company involved should be ashamed of the way they have handled this bet and the correspondence they have sent to the OP. Their Customer Services people are clearly guessing and lying through their teeth, rather than admit their mistake and settle the bet at the correct price.
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Where do you all stand on the fact that the Firm never sent me any notification that the bet had been voided and also that the Firm's regulator have no problem with that?
Do you also not think that a regulator should know whether a Firm is registered with IBAS and also if a decision by IBAS in my favour would lead to payment? What do you think about this "Independent Bookmakers Service" who appear not even exist? You may call it "kicking up a stink" avi but it is also to let people know what is going on with these Firms and more importantly with regulator's in the present day. The reason bookmaking in this country is now on it's arse for the punter is that people have not stuck together and had a go back, this has happened for years and years and years. |
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Where do you all stand on the fact that the Firm never sent me any notification that the bet had been voided and also that the Firm's regulator have no problem with that?
Do you also not think that a regulator should know whether a Firm is registered with IBAS and also if a decision by IBAS in my favour would lead to payment? What do you think about this "Independent Bookmakers Service" who appear not even exist? You may call it "kicking up a stink" avi but it is also to let people know what is going on with these Firms and more importantly with regulator's in the present day. The reason bookmaking in this country is now on it's arse for the punter is that people have not stuck together and had a go back, this has happened for years and years and years. |
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I now suggest that you follow Paul Haigh's advice.
Send an email to head of customer services and say you will now be going through the small claims court. They have had plenty of time to address this issue. I agree with other posters that the 18/1 was probably not the true price that should of been offered but 8/15 is clearly even more wrong!!! GL |
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The regulator has also constantly said EVERY bet placed on this market was voided but will not enter in to any form of discussion regarding providing evidence of this claim - that speaks volumes.
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jbbrfc, under no circumstances let IBAS be the arbitrator in your dispute,
they are funded by Bookmakers and will invariably after much ado find in their favour. Sue and you will win. |
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I also want people to know about the IBAS factor here.
If you spend time on any Jenningsbet powered site you will notice errors (by errors I mean prices in play that are of huge value, this is down to shoddy/slow trading). You will also see some terrible prices in play - Football appears to be the key Sport they cover in play and the prices are ridiculous - you are talking about teams that should be 2/1 etc that are sat at 1/10 or over/under markets where both sides are under say 1/5 etc.... Have a look if you can be bothered sometime, people probably have seen this is some degree though I expect. |
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jbbrfc - the validity of the 18/1 aside you have been appallingly treated throughout this whole process and on that score I sympathise. You are right to highlight the shortcomings both with the firm in question and IBAS - they are an absolute disgrace. I can't think of any other industry where what amounts to 'fraud' is commonplace on a daily basis and yet is ignored by the bodies that are supposed to regulate it. Bookmakers nowadays are untrustworthy with no morality or ethics whatsoever.
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Sorry i forgot to add on my previous post.
If and when you send them the email saying your going through small claims, ask them to acknowledge receipt of your email - nothing more. I am interested to see what will happen next! |
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Like I have said has this bet of lost I very much doubt this would of been cancelled.
Given they are saying EVERY bet on the market was cancelled I expect other customers will of received e-mails saying so and possibly they could forward me one of those? They cannot though. |
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Avibond, that comment re bookies generally is a bit strong, I have
been betting for over 60 years and must say that I have found that in that time 99.99% of the guys and firms I have wagered with have been totally honourable. |
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jbbrfc
18 Jul 12 10:08 Joined: 14 Mar 11 | Topic/replies: 37 | Blogger: jbbrfc's blog Like I have said has this bet of lost I very much doubt this would of been cancelled. 100% it wouldn't have been cancelled but proving this is impossible alas... |
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Yes wee eck, although not 60yrs like yourself i have been going for 25yrs. During that time i have only had 2 disputes and both were settled in my favour after threatening to take them to court.
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wee eck - you have been very fortunate imo. Over the past fortnight I have suffered two increased Rule (4) deductions due to bookmakers shortening non-runners after they have been officially withdrawn. That is theft. I've only been betting around 25 years (on an almost daily basis) and to be fair the 'dishonesty' I refer too has only occurred during the past five years or so.
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Aviboyd - I think we have discussed this before! A practice that is getting more widespread and goes mostly un-noticed!
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Yes Nige. Sorry to hear you have had to threaten bookmakers with legal action (not happened to me or anyone I know), the fact that they climbed down says all you need to know really...
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I think that you are all missing one salient point here...
The Isle Of Man has a separate legal system and to sue Wilsonbet you will have to go through the Manx Courts.An English brief is a waste of time.... Tell them that you will get in touch with the local paper that will shift them !! |
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Avibond funnily enough in the last 5 years or so my betting has diminished
by around 90% so perhaps I am posting about the past and am not aut fait with things as they might be today. Best of luck. |
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Good luck to you too wee eck. To be fair I turnover a fair amount so statistically I will have the odd problem or two that will probably not effect the more casual gambler (rule 4s aside). There were many genuine people in the bookmaking industry in days gone by but I guess they are retiring and being replaced by an entirely different breed...
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Yes todays are a completely different breed both on track, shops and online. The online and shops are not overly interested in horse racing anymore as it is not their main income.
I used to manage a shop 15-20yrs ago and it was a completely different environment ( apart for single manning of the shop ). I enjoyed it but got out when things started to change. |
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Funnily enough Nige I used to work in the industry too. Met a lot of good people, both colleagues and customers. Got out when Sunday racing was introduced.
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Yes i had a great set of customers, even the mad chinese!!! lol
I was still working when sunday racing started but i didnt last much longer. I saw and spoke to a lot of trainers as my shop was close to Sandown Park, Jimmy White used to pop in a lot. Also had the 3 card trick merchants stopping by before they went to Sandown, they were a funny bunch!!!! |
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Spoken to a member of the GC and he is looking to answer some further questions.
I was concerned of something like that homefortea, thanks for pointing that out. This has been dealt with terribly, the firm are now saying they e-mailed everyone to tell them al bets were cancelled yet I have an e-mail where I have had to go to them in the first instance. Very poor, you wonder how often they get away with this sort of stuff. |
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I can't think of any other industry where what amounts to 'fraud' is commonplace on a daily basis and yet is ignored by the bodies that are supposed to regulate it.
Correct. The fact is that many firms fill their T&Cs with terms that are clearly unfair to the punter. Many of them base themselves in jurisdictions where the regulation is even more tinpot than our GC, with absolutely no interest in protecting punters. Quite the opposite; they actively seek to be as lenient to operators as possible, to attract them to their jurisdiction. |
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jbbrfc - It seems to me that to make a rational judgement on your dispute several points need clarification.
The issue of the exact timing of your bet is crucial - if Wilsonbet have confirmed that your bet was placed prior to the commencement of the fourth round then you have a much stronger case than if it was placed after play had started for the day. Once again, I would implore you not to refer this dispute to IBAS though it appears that Wilsonbet are not registered there anyway. Don't place too much faith in the involvement of the Gambling Commission either. The issue here is in fact a much wider one, and not one that I am keen to discuss on here to be honest. Suffice to say that any regulator will say that your bet has been settled (voided) in accordance to the T&Cs which you agreed to when you placed your bet. Based on what information you have shared here, your treatment is, at best, grossly unfair in my opinion, but your only hope of getting paid is to consider a legal challenge. If it was to be heard under English Law I think I would fancy your chances but IOM law I know nothing about. |
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sorry I haven't followed the whole thread but if that "without the fav" market still had up the same prices that it had at the start of the tournament, then you have no chance of being paid as they can claim there was no "in running" for that market.
if you can prove that the market was fluctuating the same way as the all in market then you might have a shout, but 18/1 seems a bit overpriced to me for somebody in second place. I do agree that your treatment was shoddy, but shoddy treatment isn't usually covered in bookies rules, whereas palpable errors are. good luck though. |
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By the way if anybody wants any help with a betting dispute I'm happy to offer free advice:
betdisputeadvice@gmail.com |
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Paul Haigh, are you a Lawyer?
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Nige, what's a 3 card trick merchant?
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^ 'Find the lady' Blades...
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Not a lawyer but years of experience of IBAS in particular and a decent record of helping people who have been treated unfairly get paid what they deserve.
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Blades that were around mostly pre-war working the race tracks playing a scam
called find the Lady, the Lady being the Queen of Spades. The trick was performed by using three playing cards and the punter had to find the Queen which when the cards were dealt in front of you seemed easy enough and it was when the perpertators were using their stooges but as soon as a mug put his money down the Queen was never where it appeared to be. I have seen unfortunates lose bundles trying to find the elusive Lady. |
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Paul, you seem a decent lad. Best of luck to you.
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Firstly - should the onus not be on them to show evidence as to where this 8/15 quote comes from? They keep moving the goalposts you see. Firstly they say it was because the market was left up due to a technical error, then they say it was the wrong price and should of been 8/15 - they have never once said in concrete where 8/15 comes from other than the IBS THIS IS VITAL HERE - the IBS stands for Independent Bookmakers Service, who are they? There website has been suspended from the day WilsonBet sent the e-mail - they appear to be some outfit in Cheshire.
Paul: Regarding the bet being placed prior to the start of the 4th round that is simply an error by them, it highlights again that they don't really understand the problem. I haver never at all said this was placed before the start. It just serves up their incompetence even more. At the very least this thread is showing up what a bunch of chancers this operation really are. I implore you to follow some football prices in play on their site, you see books where they are betting to upwards of 250% on a regular basis. |
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Without wishing to hijack the thread, I have for some months now been receiving copies of IBAS adjudications from people willing to pass them on to me.
I intend to continue collating these and hope to set up a website at some point which will open people's eyes I suspect. Feel free to email as above with any IBAS adjudications you have received. |
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jbbrfc - I would suggest you drop me a line and I would be happy to help you with this. There are just too many inconsistencies on this thread between the two sides and they need to be cleared up before you can proceed any further in my opinion.
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jbbrfc, what margins they bet to are irrelevant that is their business
and if people are prepared to take the prices they offer is up to the folk involved. Reading your post this moment it appeared by the gist of it that you had placed your wager before play started on the 4th day, if that is not the case and your bet was placed during play on the 4th I think your claim is weakened. The whole episode is wishy washy to say the least. |