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15 Jul 12 10:11
Date Joined: 14 Aug 02
| Topic/replies: 7,464 | Blogger: adge's blog
yesterday at york i was in a line of seven bookmakers. i was the only one out of al of them betting 1/4 odds in the handicaps.
in the sixth race a horse refused to go down to the start which reduced the field to 11 reducing the each way terms to 1/5th

i then had to suffer continual abuse from the public for not paying the amount on the ticket. they firmly believed i was cheating them as there was no rule 4 deduction.
one girl brought her boyftiend and all his drunken mates to add their abuse. they kept shouting that nobody else was making a deduction [ where they had bet ] and i was plainly cheating the punters and telling everyone in earshot not to bet with me.

sometimes i despair
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Report adge July 15, 2012 10:13 AM BST
today i'm at southwell betting 1/4 , knowing most others will be 1/5th , but is it really worth it.
Report PBT July 15, 2012 10:14 AM BST
Are you Wilson in disguise?
Report pauli July 15, 2012 10:18 AM BST
The situation you describe doesn't surprise me adge.  It is amazing just how many people bet without understanding the rules.  Unfortunately, there too many people who can only express their frustration by resorting to abuse.  A sad reflection on society as a whole I feel.
Report helphelp July 15, 2012 10:21 AM BST
me too adge  it  would  help  if  the  announcer on  course  would  get  there  fingers  out and  tell  the  public  these  things  also  the  rule  four  deductions straight  away  after  the  race  result  NOT 10  mins  later !!!!!
Report Sportsadvisor July 15, 2012 10:30 AM BST
nobody is getting cheated. this bookie is telling you he was one of a few betting to a 1/4 odds - when  many of his peers were offering the far more restrictive 1/5. in business, this percentage imporvement is a huge concession - to the punter. it's not all very well to hurl abuse when someone is doing his best to give the very best terms
it should be mandated by tracks that all bookies respect the tattersalls standard terms - to their betterment and to the clarity of situation for punters. currently a punter doesnt know if his 5er each way is better of bet at 8/1 or 15/2 (to a sixth!)
unfortunately there is a body of book makers resisting tracks being involved. this, in my view, is a ridiculous and perverted way of looking at things
bottom line is-no track wants to put bookies out of business, its counter productive
we cannot agree amongst ourselves. i am throughly in favour of special conditions being brought in to force us to bet sensibly
Report Sportsadvisor July 15, 2012 10:39 AM BST
thats the accepted standard as laid down by the committee of tattersalls, a body of bookmakers and laymen setup to ensure a fair betting deal
show a little brains, your criticism is totally without foundation, he is forced to return stakes on the withdrawn horse which upsets the margin significantly
Report SHADDER July 15, 2012 10:47 AM BST
Standard terms as laid down by the commitee of tattersalls, a body of bookmakers and laymen set up to ensure a fair betting deal?
Try finding a off course bookmaker that will lay you a "fair " bet in a bad each way race.
The trouble is these terms are outdated and need modernised , oh and what about rule 4 mmm dont even go there
Report adge July 15, 2012 10:49 AM BST
some comments deleted from this thread for some reason. ??
not at my request. sorry if they were yours. we need every ignoramous to post so that we can correct their post with common sanse replies
anyway , off to southwell
Report adge July 15, 2012 10:50 AM BST
that is high on my agenda , but 2012 racecourse contracts take precedance
Report Pilsudski July 15, 2012 10:58 AM BST
This is not meant as a criticism Adge,but bookmakers/backers alike know the risk on e.w. when the number of runners is "on the edge".If I were a backer(and I'm not)I would never bet e.w. in a field of ,say 8 runners,for fear of a NR.Can only suggest you pay up,swallow and move on.Life will be more peaceful.
Report whodareswins July 15, 2012 11:01 AM BST
Don't see any reason to criticise a bookmaker who is offering greater value in more races.  But nor do I see any reason to criticise a punter who justly feels aggrieved at what s/he sees as sharp practice.
I very rarely bet each way as I don't see the point of backing a horse twice in the same race.  But I can understand adge's frustration and disquiet at the antics of some racegoers, but he ought to know that whatever the rules of tattersalls are is fairly irrelevant to many racegoers if they do not know them before they bet.  And that rule is fairly obscure and not known by many, and possibly most, racegoers. 
Maybe adge can have his rules printed in large enough print for everyone to be able to see them from a reasonable distance, and displayed ( protected from the weather ) alongside his prices or at least somewhere in full view so that if the situation arises again ( which is very likely ) he can point to them and refer the punter to the racecourse officials.  Or maybe on the back of his ticket he gives to the punter the rules covering his each way bets.  Whatever it can not be beyond the wit of man to come up with a simple solution to the problem which will be accepted by all reasonable persons.
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 11:39 AM BST
Report the rabbit July 15, 2012 2:52 PM BST
i dont always agree with u adge but u are spot on about today.i was in the upper bay and was betting a quarter and got the same abuse .the thing that annoyed me yesterday and always does is the pitch renting .with that and duplicate names .god help us .the rentings a joke .and the renters round me were all betting inferior place terms on all races
Report Davy Jones July 15, 2012 4:58 PM BST
Adge - The problem of changing place terms due to non runners is an issue regardless of what the rest of the line do. I remember an 8 horse race reducing by 1 to a 7 horse race. As you can guess ew bets on the 3rd struck prior to the non runner all came in to collect, some took it ok, one guy genuinely thought that I had tried to shaft him.

Just on of those things!
Report kingG111111 July 15, 2012 4:59 PM BST
how did my posts dissapear ?
Report allpoints July 15, 2012 5:02 PM BST
Just shows the difference in the rings.I bet exactly like adge yesterday but in Tatts.When i explained to people what had happened to the place bet(not getting what was shown on the ticket)I did not have a single complaint.However at Ascot when that rule 4 came in(which took ages to announce)I was in the Silver ring & got plenty of abuse.
Report courselayer July 15, 2012 6:58 PM BST
On the first race adge I walked the line of books and about 25 of the 50 on the course were betting to 1/5th.
It makes it difficult to bet to 1/4th when next door can top you because of the place margins in his book, and I wondered why I bother.
Wilson is blamed for this abuse but like I say 50% of the great and the good from pick 1 to 50 were all at it.

As I have said before I vote to scrap each way terms and lets have a price to win and a price to be placed.

Another issue yesterday was the 10% rule 4 deduction when a horse trading at around 6/1 (16%) was withdrawn, and another
race when 8% dissapeared from my book without trace (2 withdrawn).
Any hope of getting the reduction factors reviewed?
Report unbiased July 15, 2012 7:15 PM BST
Adge,I would imagine they had already made up their minds that you were "doing them",and would therefore not listen to a word you said.One way conversation ?
A while back a punter asked if I could help him,as he thought his payout was wrong.As he was only interested in his own interpretations of the event,I could see that it would be a waste of time trying to explain the rules of racing,add to that the lager had probably kicked in.
He asked me ,apparently,because I happened to be reading the Racing Post,and thought I would have a bit of knowledge!
Report 1st time poster July 15, 2012 7:28 PM BST
but losing bets by lagered up punters are always welcome obviously,no obligation of course adge but between you and me what would it have cost for the goodwill of pointing out the reduction ,but paying out the ticket winnings
Report comingupthehill July 15, 2012 7:40 PM BST
1st - fair point ,the drunks are easy pickings - the downside is they get angry when they dont understand - cant pocket a load of winnings of them ,then gripe about the awkward ones,comes with the territory,

thats why they have bouncers on nightclubs
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 8:07 PM BST
same as allpoints but i actually explained to the whole line why it would be less.same with the rule 4.stood and told them all and said if anyone didnt understand i would explain one to one.dont know if it was cos of that or the fact we have a female(wife)on front but never have any trouble.(touch wood).one thing we never do is just give them the lesser ammount without explaining why.even if they dont kick off they wont come back.
Report 1st time poster July 15, 2012 8:12 PM BST
wish pp would give me a one to one, on my torres golden boot returns, LaughLaughLaugh
try explaining that one to a queue of pished up punters, CryCry
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 8:32 PM BST
adge bet proper ew all day(gold flag)admit to 1/5 1234 on the big race(but wouldnt have joined if that wasnt part of it).won £637.35 ascot we all bet sensible on black caviars race.with the figures i bet 1/5 123.the book next to me said they dont know the difference and bet 1/6.he held under £200 place.i held £850.THOSE THAT MATTER KNOW THE DIFFERENCE-PUNTERS.those that dont bet proper ew are shooting themselves in the foot.LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report cantspell July 15, 2012 8:33 PM BST
surely if bookmakers alter the  terms to a 1/5 123 when tatts are 1/4 then thats what they should pay not then revert  to how tatts rules change the places since there not betting to those terms b interesting when challenged
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 8:38 PM BST
youve got it the wrong way round cantspell.those betting 1/4 123(proper ew terms)pay 1/5 123 when a 12 runner race becomes the return is less than it says on the ticket.those just betting 1/5 stay the same.mind you when an 8 runner race becomes 7 and the places change from 1/5 123 to 1/4 12 the number of books who just pay the 1/5th on the ticket and 2 places is disgraceful.but i honestly believe that honesty long term pays off.
Report cantspell July 15, 2012 8:45 PM BST
but regit if i back a horse each way with a bookmaker who is doing his own terms and my horse finishes 3rd how can he then change his terms to b only the first 2 since he is not betting to tatts terms
Report cantspell July 15, 2012 8:47 PM BST
this is wen a race goes fro 8 to 7
Report cantspell July 15, 2012 8:47 PM BST
this is wen a race goes fro 8 to 7
Report fibber2 July 15, 2012 8:49 PM BST
Being allowed to change your place terms on bets already struck, does not make sense in my eyes (unless they're struck at SP)  When there's a non runner, the Rule 4 is there to protect us (or at least its supposed to, and I know in this case it didn't!), being able to reduce the place terms as well seemed unfair to me. 

We discussed this at length when developing our on course software, and decided to put in an option to allow the bookmaker to choose whether to apply the new place terms or not.

cantspell - Someone who bets to non-standard terms are not allowed to change the terms on bets already struck, as far as I understand.
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 8:50 PM BST
Report bar one July 15, 2012 8:55 PM BST
when a race goes from eight runners to seven runners, all will pay 1/4 odds 1-2, some bookmakers advertise on their board or at their bottom of their LED board each way 1/4 odds 4-7 runners just in case the said circumstance happens
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 8:57 PM BST
if a bookmaker is betting 1/6 123 and they take a horse out unless he has a sign(a lot do)stating that his terms alter dependant on runners i think he should pay first three but in reality he will pay ferst 2 and probably at 1/6 odds.
Report fibber2 July 15, 2012 8:58 PM BST
that rings a bell bar1, you're probably allowed to change the terms as long as you are displaying that clearly enough
Report cantspell July 15, 2012 8:59 PM BST
but bar one they are standard terms if a bookmakers alters his terms to non standard terms hence a 1/6 th 123 can he then allowed to pay only the first 2 wen the field is reduced to 7 from 8
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 9:00 PM BST
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 9:05 PM BST
Report intheknow July 15, 2012 9:05 PM BST
The Truth is the king of high slippage. Unfortunately most of them are voids Grin
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 9:06 PM BST
MIND U 30 BETS IS A LOT FOR ULaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 9:08 PM BST
Report bar one July 15, 2012 9:12 PM BST
cantspell, there are not many bookmakers oncourse now advertising "standard each way terms" you have to advetrise what terms you are betting to, "standard each ways terms" are believed to be a feature of the past, since the gambling commission administrated the rules and regs of on course bookmakers
Report intheknow July 15, 2012 9:13 PM BST
yes but it was a good effort considering he wasn't on the joint much as he spent most of the day offering tutorials to everyone else Laugh
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 15, 2012 9:15 PM BST
Report IanP July 15, 2012 9:45 PM BST
bar one is correct. There are no "standard terms" but default terms if a bookmaker doesn't advertise his terms properly and clearly.  Part of the NAB submission to the committee that revised the Tatts rules was that a bookmaker not using the default terms should pay the advertised number of places even after a non runner, but this wasn't incorporated into the rules.
Report REGIT July 15, 2012 10:57 PM BST
I dont know what your on about truth ive never rented a pitch anywhere.ive let people run mine for a share with a proper contract but ive never rented one myself AND HEXHAM YOUVE GOT TO BE KIDDING.ive worked for rlyl buts thats all.
Report HipPriest July 15, 2012 11:33 PM BST
I can't understand why bookmakers worry these days. Yes the place book can be a liability (although a printed ticket should explain clearly that the place terms may change) but the win market is just pure arbitrage profit against the exchanges.

When I go racing with novice punters they always marvel at the 'bravery' of the bookies. Its just a 7% guaranteed minimum margin on every race in the win market with a bit of commission going to Betfair.
Report daniels mother July 16, 2012 9:35 AM BST
never had any trouble on the grass (in Tatts ) ,just told everyone the place terms had altered
Report courselayer July 16, 2012 4:35 PM BST
Hip Priest

You sort of miss the expenses element!

7% of money taken say £5k on a day less exs of £350 per day, equates to 12 hours work for free.
Report 1st time poster July 16, 2012 4:52 PM BST
unless you get a skinner in the magnet cup with a crowd of 45,000, Laugh, and a skinner in the july cup to boot, Wink
Report courselayer July 16, 2012 4:58 PM BST

The skinners are taken account in the 7% margin.

Exs are paid regardless.
Report HipPriest July 16, 2012 5:58 PM BST
So I am right about the margin.

That means you need to do an average of £10k per day to make something approaching a living , £20k to really roll.

Therefore if you can't do that you need to bet at different tracks or some bookies are going to have to quit.

Skinners are not included - they are a bonus because you cant lay off on exchanges at the prices books offer on outsiders.

7% is a benchmark for the liquid end of the market.
Report courselayer July 16, 2012 6:51 PM BST

Obviously books work to a margin, to help cover expenses / earn profit, and on course its less than the SP.

Very few (if any) average anywhwere near £10k.

There doesn't seem to be a long list looking to pursue the trade - that is true.

Skinners are included in the margin because in the long run some win, hedge or not is irrelevant.

There are books that don't hedge, but accept the majority do and if anything there is more margin on
the rags on the exchanges compared to favourites.

Hope this helps.
Report HipPriest July 16, 2012 9:19 PM BST
I take your point about skinners - there is an element of good old fashioned luck there.

My biggest gripe these days is that even at Festival meets (where admittedly you can find some value) everyone's tissue is the same i.e they look at Betfair and knock 10 percent of the top 6 in the market and chalk that up.

What happened to taking a horse on? I know you can get picked off by the big boys hedging but it can be right that if you ask 100 punters how a race should be priced you'll get 60 different answers but if you ask 100 books at a big meet they all see it exactly the same?

A real shame and has taken a lot of the fun out of pacing the ring shopping for someone who fancies a bash at your selection.
Report daniels mother July 17, 2012 10:06 AM BST
hip ,the prices still vary on course as they used to ,they just go back into line quicker .Yes the prices are based on betfair ,but people are willing to take horses on ,these prices do not last long because the punters soon dash in (or the arbers ) keep your eyes peeled and keep a look out !!
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 17, 2012 10:13 AM BST
Report daniels mother July 17, 2012 10:15 AM BST
free advert for you again Tim Happy
Report THETRUTHHURTS July 17, 2012 10:22 AM BST
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