FROM 1/8TH ODDS TO 1/3RD ODDS IN 60 MINUTES jack wilson watch

i always thought the art of bookmaking was getting them in at the right price .....i must have beeen wrong

JOHNNY,HAVNT U HEARD,THE NEW ART OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKING IS TO PURCHASE AN EXPENSIVE FRONT LINE PICK,THEN HERE LIES THE ART,U THEN PROCEED(COMBINED WITH THE RACECOURSE)TO DRIVE AS MANY PUNTERS FROM THE RACECOURSE AS POSSIBLE,THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED IN A NUMBER OF WAYS USUALLY BY FLATLY REFUSING TO LAY A BET,ONLY TAKING A BET AS AN ARB,OR BY DISPLAYING RIP OFF PLACE TERMS.THEN WHEN THE OBJECTIVE IS ACHIEVED,SCREAM THE PLACE DOWN THAT THERES NOT A SOUL IN THE BETTING RING.HOPE THIS HELPS

Jocky is a maverick member of the new blood that have infiltrated the betting ring over the last ten years. He has no idea of the basics of bookmaking or even a loose concept of customer retention. His simple application of figures i.e. Exchange price ratio both win and place to the price/terms he offers is a very simple practice. It may not be illegal - it might however be immoral and moreover lead to the ultimate demise of the business in which he hopes to continue to operate. Is the Rogue Traders programme looking for new material ? A prime candidate is out there !

Jul 5, 2012 -- 11:04PM, democrat wrote:

Jocky is a maverick member of the new blood that have infiltrated the betting ring over the last ten years. He has no idea of the basics of bookmaking or even a loose concept of customer retention. His simple application of figures i.e. Exchange price ratio both win and place to the price/terms he offers is a very simple practice. It may not be illegal - it might however be immoral and moreover lead to the ultimate demise of the business in which he hopes to continue to operate. Is the Rogue Traders programme looking for new material ? A prime candidate is out there !

he is driving people away in droves ,i have never heard so many complaints about one person !!
my customers say 'why dont you do something about it 'i say tell people not to bet with him until he has no client base left !! yes his prices on the outsiders can look good against someone betting e/w to proper terms ,but they rarely do against someone betting win only . he is no good to anyone

What software system is he using? RDT limit place terms to 1/8th on there software which used to be terms main firms used to use in 2yo races.
At least he offers place terms on three places in 8 runner races. Others have only done two places in the past.
Please can courses see sense and restore old order.

He uses Exante.

DANIELS MOTHER,THE NEW BLOOD U DESCRIBE ARE CURRENTLY RUNNING MOST MAJOR(AND I USE THE TERM LOOSELY)BOOKMAKING FIRMS IN THE COUNTRY,WHO WOULD EVER HAVE THOUGHT U WOULD STRUGGLE TO GET A £100 BET ON AN ODDS ON SHOT WITH ANY OF THE SO CALLED BIG BETTING CHAINS,WHO TEN YEARS AGO WOULD HAVE BELIEVED U WOULD BE OFFERED DERISORY SUMS LIKE £5.50 WHEN TRYING TO GET A BET ONLINE ON AN ODDS ON SELECTION.MORALITY AND ETHICS HAVE BEEN LEFT IN THE PAST,AND AS AN ONCOURSE BOOKMAKER I CAN TELL U THIS STRATEGY IS BEING ADOPTED BY MORE AND MORE OPERATORS,BOTH IN THE SHOPS AND ONCOURSE.

I cannot understand why Wilson and other newer bookmakers wont lay trade.  If a price is on the board, I want to lay it at that price.  Does it really matter who backs it?

WASNOT,THEY ARE THE NEW BLOOD,THEY DONT WANT TO TAKE A BET FULL STOP,IF HAYDOCK PARK IS ON TOMORROW,AS U DRIVE ON TO THE COURSE U WILL SEE POSTERS SIGNS AND FLAGS ADVERTISING BETFRED AND THE BETFRED BETTING SHOP,GO IN AND TRY TO GET A BET OF £100 OR MORE ON,SO IF THE BIGGEST INDEPENDENT IN THE WORLD WONT TAKE A BET,THEN WHY SHOULD JOCKY?????????????????

COMMISSION AGENTS,PIMPS AND BURGLARS,ITS THE FUTURE

Wilson wont even lay a fiver to trade.  Think its wrong myself.

HES NOT ON HIS OWN THOUGH IS HE MR HUGHES??????????????????????

WHAT ABOUT THE BIGGEST INDEPENDENT IN NORTH WALES??????????????????????????????/

TO NAME JUST ONE.

Agree it can be hard to get hedge bets in the ring, but some of us will take them (as you know).  He is the only one I can think of who has a sign up though.

Do they have a sign up or just blow you out?

NOT JUST ME,EVERYONE,I THINK IT MIGHT BE THE FUTURE.

I'll always lay you and anyone else a bet if its on the board.  Don't see any reason not to.  No trade from a bookmaker is an admission that you're not very good at it imo.

FOUR PROMINENT MIDLANDS BOOKMAKERS HAD TO WEAR NECKBRACES LAST YEAR ,3 DUE TO REPETITIVE STRAIN INJURY AND ONE FOR WHIPLASH,AFTER BEING ASKED FOR BETS AT THE PRICES BEING ADVERTISED ON THEIR BOARDS

ITS RECIPRICAL WITH ME,IF THEY WONT LAY ME,IN MOST CASES I WONT LAY THEM.

I do wish GC had more teeth/bite.

tim do what PJ does ,lay them what they want until its flashing and then say no !! :)

betfred are actually not bad ,and advertise they will lay bets up to £250 ,but joke corals !!! 5 e/w is often the answer !!! altho tomorrow after 900 EVERYONE can bet any horse at sandown to win £10K !!

thetruth do you make it pay or do you have another income

THERESOME,DIDNT GET ON HEADACHE PARK TODAY MISSED BY TWO(AFTER TWO RACES WOULD HAVE BEEN BEHIND)MAKE THE SAME AS THE AVERAGE JOE WORKING A SIX DAY WEEK IN A FACTORY,I DO HAVE A SIDE LINE SELLING LADIES UNDERWARE ON EARLSTOWN MARKET

beverley watch today
race 1 ..wilson 1/6th odds ..every other book 1/5th odds ..not a bad ew race
race 2 ..wilson 1/5th odds ..every other book 1/4 odds

thankfully i was much busier than him so didn't bother looking after that. yorkshire folk are getting wise to him

i see even mt racing have started going 1/5th odds on 14 runner handicaps

thetruth thank you for an honest answer

Tim you never were or will be a average joe I am pleased you are doing wellon the racecourse And you have a new sideline in womens underware Much better than that horrible betting shop in warrington Though maybe not as profitable as the cig smuggling love to hear from you

HI OZZ,YEP THE CIG SMUGGLING,THOSE WERE THE DAYSSTILL DO A BIT IN THE SLIM PANATELLA DEPARTMENT

letter on page 12 of the post today a punter complains about gold flag bookmakers changing the place terms,in his words when he challenged the bookmaker they said they had meant to take it down for the meeting,he asks where were the ring inspectors.

i haven't read that ...any details on whom or what races ?

OZZIE U HAVE ME BAMBOOZALD AS TO YOUR ID,ANY CLUES

Tim do you still live in the jewish part of burtonwood Ihave spent my time between here and OZ for the last few years.You would do well in OZ someone with your energy.One big clue we had a dog called ANDY we had a grand on him one night at park rd after he won .  We both bought coats called them ANDY coats must have been 30 years ago Had some health problems before going to OZ.

OZZIE I CAN ONLY ASSUME IM TALKING TO THE ONE AND ONLY P.M.,WOULD BE GREAT TO CATCH UP,THE CLUE ONLY LEAVES ME WITH THE ABOVE NAME,BUT I WAS ALWAYS TOLD IT WAS NEW ZEALAND U WENT TO?????EITHER WAY HAPPY TO ARRANGE A MEET,NO OFFENCE MEANT IF IM WRONG.PS I MOVED FROM THE JEWISH PART OF BURTONWOOD TO THE MUSLIM ENCLAVE OF THE MINERS HOUSES,LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM U.

On-course bookmakers are basically rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic and have always had an unhealthy pre-occupation with the success/or failure of other peoples business. I remember a fellow layer at the dogs having a dreadful night one evening and moaning like mad all the way home (I was pals with his clerk/son at the time)...then the clerk told him I had lost 2k more and he starting singing in delight for the rest of the journey. Basically the solution is simple....standard each-way terms for all or win only betting...and ban hedging into betfair on-course (perhaps ban it altogether)...the cash stays in the ring/punters come racing again....simple...but sadly bookmakers are cliquey and sadly incapable of agreeing about anything!

SPOT ON LIGHTBULB,THE ICEBURG IS LOOMING.

thats far to good a post for this forum

OZZIEBOB,SHOULD U BE CALLED OLDHALLPAUL

Lightbulbs - that is the solution imo.  Trying to get the bookmakers to agree to it is the hard part, as most wont stand horses for 2 bob nowadays, the majority wont lay fellow bookmakers a bet of any kind, and the really poor bookmakers can only keep going by flimping the EW terms and turning over the punters.

does anybody know what leicester was like on saturday ?

Factmachine;

did you work for Ken opposite the Marquis in Warrington?

TWONKY,CORRECT

THE FIRST AND ONLY SHOP IN THE WORLD TO GO GUARANTEED ODDS EVERY SINGLE RACE INCLUDING GREYHOUNDS AND FOREIGN,I WAS THERE

PETE LEICESTER WAS THE DOT ON THE CARD

THERESSOMEPRATSONHERE....08.JULY.09.58
IT HAS COME TO COLIN TAYLORS ATTENTION OF M.T.RACING, OF YOUR POSTING AS REGARDS HIS FIRM ON 8TH OF JULY ....HES IS CURRENTLY ON HIS WAY TO WINDSOR TONIGHT AND HAS PHONED ME UP TO REPLY IN HIS DEFENCE AS REGARDS YOUR REMARKS MADE ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT HE  AND HIS FATHER STRENYOUSLY DENIE ,HE IS OPENLY INVITING YOU TO CONFRONT HIM AND HIS FATHER AND EXPLAIN THE ORIGINS  AND PROVIDE THE ACUTUALL DATES OF WHERE AND WHEN THIS INCIDENT OCCURED .....IF YOU CANT THEN I SUGGEST YOU RETRACT THE STATEMENT YOU HAVE MADE .......LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU ..COLIN AND MORLEY

Tim i would be more than happy to meet up with you after all these years and exchange stories.Just let me know where and when.Iam pleased to hear of your upgrade of property district. The one and only PM.

OK OZZ,IF U ARE THE TRUE PM RING ME WHENEVER SUITS AND WE WILL SORT A MEET,IM QUITE EASY TO GET HOLD OF,I WILL B UTTOX TUES NIGHT,CHESTER WEEKEND,LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING FROM U

PS,IF U GO TO UTTOX BEWARE MT RACING ON THE EWAY HANDICAPSSTANDARD EWAY TERMS EVERY RACE WITH YOURS TRULY

cashless it was on saturday at haydock in the 14 runner handicap 4 bookmakers were displaying 123 1/5th odds ab bet steve lloyde bob denman which surprised me a little and mt which surprised me a lot

it was thankfully then a mistake by mt in forgetting to change his display board which is easily done in hindsight i perhaps should have pointed the mistake out to them but as they were betting next to lloyde i thought they might have had enough please pass on my apoligies to them and its very nice to hear they are not going down the route of the many that have no balls or honour to bet the correct way

everyone will now be watching their board starting at pontefract tomorrow.

btw out of 26 books at ripon tonight how many were 1/6th odds in the 16 runner maiden

24, thou it wasnt overbroke at 1/5 betting to a fair% on the win book.

it was on my book gnasher [ varied between 94% and 95% ] i was never at any time less than 14/1 the winner btw

u must of been betting about only 1% a runner on the win part,

on the shop show it opened 14 and went 12s as bf went 15 area a few mins be4 off. it then drifted out towards 20 before shortning late on  in both win and place markets.[i laid it at 3.3 place 14.5  at  8.44 and 845pm acc to my account].

i was told by a member of the public that there were just FIVE of us betting to the traditional each way terms of 1/5th.
didm't check myself though . each side of me were 1/6h and i was still bigger win prices

I will be at Ponte today and have a look  for myself at Mr WILSONS GAFF.

you're in for a treat , huggy , a master at work.

Picture this scenario. A 'Bookie' wants to rape the ring and have 2,3...4 pitches in the same ring (mainly karzi picks), whilst renting one or two of those pitches out to thier 'rep'(even though in actual fact it is the 'rep's' pitch, just under the licence holder's name) have I narrowed it down enough there? ..thennnn wants to bet to 2/3% a runner(ripping the punter off far more than changing a 1/4 to a 1/5th) thennnn finds time to stroll around the ring and has the audacity to cry when a book is goin a 5th instead of a quarter in a handicap, EVEN though the little poncy yellow flag is used to suit, i.e 1/5th in 16+.

"Traditional" awwww bless.

Haven't read the whole thread, but each way betting is a f*cking joke. It is almost never equitable.

The Yanks don't do much right when it comes to betting, but a win, place and show system would be much more preferable.

Amazing all these bookmakers trying to look after the punters and making sure they get the best 'terms'!!


How is it then when I am at the races and a horse is 10/1 on the boards and 13.0 on here i am FORBIDDEN from telephoning BF for a bet!!!

lee

LEE,YOUR NOT FORBIDDEN,BUT IT WILL PROBABLY COST MORE FOR THE TELEPHONE CALL TO TAKE THE FOUR QUID AT 13=12/1 ON HERE,PS AT UTTOX TONIGHT(IF ITS ON??)EVERY FAV WILL TRADE BIGGER IN THE RING(NO COMMISSION,NO PREMIUM CHARGE)HOPE THIS HELPS

i luv you Tim

forbidden by whom , lee.
many do just that , every race , every day

but , of course that is a win only price

forbidden

the terms and condition of entry to British racecourses state categorically

'the use of mobile telephones in connection with ANY betting activity is forbidden'

These terms written by the RCA

I have written to them many times about this - but there has been no change!! its laughable

YEP,AND THE SPEED LIMIT ON THE MOTORWAY IS 70MPH

if the racecourse jammed all telephone service providers so that telephone betting was not possible the poor bookmakers could not get a signal to access the exchanges.

errr, the very thought . would put most out of business

has anything ever caused as much hassle as the change in place terms its been said many times but if the rca made the rule bookmakers had to bet to betting shop place terms including 1st 4 1/4 then there would be more time for people to sort out the other problems in the ring

correct

NEEDS SOMETHING DRASTIC TO BRING THIS ISSUE TO THE BOIL

There is no mathematical basis to the 1/4 and 1/5 that have been traditionally offered. These have always been arbitrary fractions that were introduced by bookmakers to entice punters to bet more both on course and off course.

There is an Appendix in the Art of Legging which does attempt to calculate the place prices from the win chances and that work suggests that 1/4 and 1/5 may be generous to the punter.

Factmachine;
Hope your horse-laying is better than your RL backing

A few of us from the Marquis and Wilkies will be at Chester on saturday. are in Tatts or the middle of the course?

beverley today ,8 chances for jocky to rip people off !! watch this space !1

let's give him another rousing welcome to yorkshire

WHY NOT A BURST OF,WERE AS THA BIN INCE I SAW THEE,I SAW THEE

Have to admit I didn't take much notice of what he was doing at Stratford on Sunday.  I know he was 1/6th odds in the first race and I also know he didn't do 1/4 odds in the last, a 15 runner h'cap hurdle.  He did, to be fair, bet 1/3rd odds in the 2 races that were 1/4 1,2.  I had big signs up explaining how I was full EW terms every race and how 1/5th is bigger than 1/6th etc & make sure they check before they bet and as a result I was busier than he was.  One punter came and thanked me for the signs, as he had fallen for Wilson's tricks in the first race but wouldn't be fooled again.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME AT CHESTER IN THE FIRST RACE,I EXPLAINED TO A PUNTER THAT THE 4/5 I HAD ON THE BOARD FOR THE FIRST FAV,1.77 ON HERE WAS BIGGER THAN THE 8/11 AND 4/6 OFFERED ON THE FRONT LINE,HE THANKED ME THEN PROCEEDED TO BET WITH ME ALL DAY

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME AT CHESTER IN THE FIRST RACE,I EXPLAINED TO A PUNTER THAT THE 4/5 I HAD ON THE BOARD FOR THE FIRST FAV,1.77 ON HERE WAS BIGGER THAN THE 8/11 AND 4/6 OFFERED ON THE FRONT LINE,HE THANKED ME THEN PROCEEDED TO BET WITH ME ALL DAY

The Punters are catching on slowly........ What is Jockey going to do when all the idiots relaise?   Suddenly he won't have a business anymore

wasnot

did you go to newbury saturday ?

Yes jimnast.  I'm on the video standing between the fight and my missus.

oh dear hope the wife is ok.

at least your mum and dad were at chester out of the way.

She was quite upset by it jimnast.  Most of the people who came to draw after the race said they were going home and wouldn't be coming racing again.

cant blame her or them wasnot,a group of my pals 40 to 50 year olds considered cancelling a trip to the hennersy this year.i pointed out that the people who go national hunt racing are different to those who go flat racing.

I actually normally like the Newbury Saturday crowds jimnast.  They tend to be a little bit older and like a bet.  There are normally plenty of welsh there but they are really nice people, you can have a good joke with them.  I think Saturday was a pre-arranged ruck.

lets hope then it was a one of wasnot,we both like newbury tatts aswell for the reasons you say plus its a pretty fair ring even for those on the 2nd and 3rd rows.

no chance of the yorkshire crowd getting drunk now the bars have put beer up to £3.80p a pint.
midweek sales have dropped to almost nothing.

jack wilson was quite consistant today back at beverley betting to just 1/6th odds on nearly all races.
that did include a 17 runner handicap and a 16 runner handicap...but at least he begrugingly did pay first four in both.

Did Daniels Mother mention it to the crowd at all?

DM bet next to him and tells me he matched him price for price but at correct each way terms .
i'm sure his punter numbers are dwindling.

ADGE, how come you were 1/5 first 4 in the 17 runner hcp, yet you have 2 gold badges on your pitch?

you can bet 1/5 up to 21 runners in the gold flag scheme.

Those are the terms ashleigh

http://www.agt-ltd.co.uk/pages/news/article/?id=743

Not a good advert for on course books at Beverley yesterday when due to glitch with RUK's prices for the last they showed the prices direct from an on course bookies board which was showing 1/5 odds 1-2-3-4 in the 17 runner handicap. Anyone watching that must have thought ..... robbing bar stewards! The 1/5 odds 1-2-3-4 on certain handicaps devalues the gold flag scheme. It should be a 1/4 odds on all handicaps 16 runners and over if the 'flag' is a true punters customer service cheer leader.

FORGET ABOUT THIS GOLD FLAG NONSENSE ITS BEYOND A JOKE,PLUS MORE AND MORE ONCOURSE FIRMS ARE SIGNING UP TO THE WHITE FLAG SCHEME  ONE OR TWO STILL FLY THE OLD SCULL AND CROSSBONES,SHOP AROUND AND U WILL FIND THERE ARE STILL SOME OF US WHO ARE TRADITIONAL PLACE TERMS EVERY RACE,EVERY MEET,LOOK OUT FOR THE GOLD UMBRELLA AT UTTOX TODAY

i don't know which board was the one shown on RUK. i wish it had been mine but unlikely.
my prices at the off were bigger than SP on twelve of the horses ad equal on the others , which in my view is a great advert for on course bookmaking. i wish RUK did that as a matter of course every race instead of the out of date betting office shows so comparisons could be drawn.
i was betting to 108% on places which was lower than my win percentage.

there were two bookmakers betting to 1/4 next to me [ both computer linked ] . they were both showing a place percentage of 95%.

ashleigh , hopefully when the 2012 contracts are all done and dusted we can turn our attention to the each way issue and gold flag terms etc which have deteriorated considerably this year.
the RCA are keen so let's see after september.

glad you were there btw

IF THE DEAL hammered OUT FOR THE 2012 CONTRACTS IS ANYTHING TO GO BY(UTTER DISGRACE IMO)THERE WILL BE NO RESOLUTION TO THE ONCOURSE EW FIASCO WITH MOST OF THE PERPETRATORS BETTING IN SUPERIOR PICK NUMBERS.

More like Yellow Flags.1/5 the odds 16 to 22 runner h/caps COME RACING
and be fleeced by these fearless "bookies"

if 1/4 odds on 16 to 21 runners became the rule it would certainly suit all because it would force everyone to lower their offered win prices accordingly.
betting to 95% and sometimes less in handicaps is not sustainable. even betfair layers know that

It is about perception though. As it stands at the moment the gold flag sends out conflicting messages when it comes to each way betting. Some punters see the Gold Flag as a symbol of trust so when they bet with a Gold Flag book on a 17 runner handicap and see that their slip shows 1/5 of the odds each way and someone further down the line who is not flying a flag offering a 1/4 then the trust is broken making the Gold Flag worthless.

YOUVGOTIT,YOUGOTIT SPOT ON.

Truth - Just take a look who is on the committee's - Are there any flimpers who would not benefit from standardised terms?   If they are in the majority then you know the decision already....... No Change Sir

you know , i just cannot see why anyone goes near him.
first race tonight at beverley his prices were exactly the same as the other books arround him but whereas everyone else was 1/5th odds each way , jocky launched into action at 1/7th. is wife smiling at everyone as if it was the days special offer.