Black Caviar......a reality check for those that are crabbing a horse that is 22 and 0

soul had steadily improved slightly since leaving jail island

credit where credit due, fair play, but not a superstar

goes to show nothing is a certainty including Frankel.


I suspect if Frankel raced overseas his race victories would be considerably closer for various reasons

OP with a post with some common sense, something that is missing from the majority on this forum

Hardly lived up to the bullshlt hype we've had to endure for a week.

Soul has steadily improved since leaving Aus? I'd say his form is worse.

agree with all of that,OP - she's palpably not ' the best in the world that that you've ever seen' as claimed by the Aussie media.

Equine equivalent of Mitchell Johnson - good but not as good as the Aussies think.

OP is very sensible - but as said today shows she's not a superstar, which is a real shame.

I really think no one is looking at the soul form.

Did he suddenly improve 10 lengths?

Knowledgeable post from a sensible poster Brownes Gazette. I agree 100%.

Black Caviar was not 100%, travelled half way around the world, raced on unfavourable ground on a track that didn`t suit and still beat the best sprinters Europe has. WONDER HORSE

she was at most 7 lbs below best.

Rease - (He bowls to the left, he bowls to the right, that Mitchell Johnson, his bowling is sh1te).

no toomyjoe, Black caviar has run 10 lengths below form and still won.

yep won despite conditions. i would like to see her again on faster ground.

wd all.

good post brownes.

You'll always get it tho, some people sit watching these things waiting for anything less than perfection so they have a whine.

10 lengths below best. mighty mac, you need to get a basic book on handicapping. I assume you are a long term loser on the ponies?

4l ahead of midas touch after he had a break.

superstar hahahahaha.

Agree 100% with op, unfortunately this forum is mostly populated by gambling addicts rather than racing enthusiasts. To take one run and come to some of the  conclusions people are coming to on here is laughable.

Imo Frankel is the best horse in the world, the best there has been in living memory, yet only 12 months ago he needed the winning post to save him from getting beat by a listed class horse.

Don't make foolish conclusions from limited evidence.

tbf she was far and away the best horse, have a look at her 2 out, cantering and the rest are all hard at it, not to mention the jock sitting absolutely motionless the final 50 yard thinking she won already, quite incredible to watch.

shes the real deal imo.

they have to be commended for coming over eitherway, won easy enough despite ground, clearly hated it.

think we all know why frankel had a close race that day.

he was shuffled back 10l behind the pacemaker.
the jock pannicked and 5 out decided he had to make up the difference and take the lead.

no such exscuses today for bc.

only one horse had an excuse ...last years winner should have won.

still unbeaten , for what ever reason jockey easy on her for best part of last furlong. considering its been a long season ,the journey ,different climate, yet she still did the job .outstanding mare.

REMEMBER ITS A SPRINT RACE YOUR NOT MEANT TO WIN GROUP 1 SPRINT RACES BY 6 LENGHTA

EXACTLY THE CUP IS COMING DOWN UNDER THE CUP IS COMING TO AUSTRALIA

IN SPORT SOMETIMES YOU JUST DO ENOUGH TO WIN SHE GOT OVER THE LINE

haha
the jck eased down last 50 yards not the majority of the last furlong.

society was left at the start and would have won with a normal start.

havent we all forgotten frankel scraped home lasy year

NONAYEVER YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT I DONT GAMBLE GAMBLING IS FOR MUGS BUT UNFORTUNATLY GAMBLING AS OVER CLOUD THESE MUPPETS MENTALITY THEY DONT THINK HORSE RACING IS A SPORT PERSONALLY PETER MOODY SHOULD BE DELIGHTED

To be honest I like Moonlight Cloud, it could be going places.


Lets see how Frankel performs away at 6 shall we?

Imv she travelled well throughout the race and clearly was the best horse,

if the jockey had kept at her in the last half a furlong she would have

won a half length or so, so  for a horse who has travelled the distance she had

and was running on ground she was unaccustomed too it was still a worthy

performance, meeting the same animals as she raced against today on the same

terms on good fast ground I think she would win easily.

gi jockey watch it again , jockey riding her  at the furlong pole then just hands and heels last 150 yards ,easing last 30 or 40 yards

Only the most biased aussie's still thought BC was better than Frankel after his performance the other day.

But honestly, if you think that was close to Caviar's best then you're just wrong.

Some filly in Arizona or New Mexico or something went 56-0. Does that make her the best horse that ever raced?

elisjohn
we all know why frankel scraped home that day.

bc had no excuses like frankel did that day.

only horse who had a genuine excuse was society rock.
go watch the start again.

if this race was run again society rock wins plain and simple.

neither does it make a miler who is 11 undefeated the best horse ever

Some people want to knock anything and everything. It's just their way.

Frankel would struggle to take on the best on Oz in conditions not ideal IMO. Just to win marks her as a fantastic horse to my eyes.

ran below par and still won.

super mare imo.

shes a champion, just like frankel.

messi-10
23 Jun 12 16:45 Joined: 25 Nov 11 | Topic/replies: 346 | Blogger: messi-10's blog
NONAYEVER YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT I DONT GAMBLE GAMBLING IS FOR MUGS BUT UNFORTUNATLY GAMBLING AS OVER CLOUD THESE MUPPETS MENTALITY THEY DONT THINK HORSE RACING IS A SPORT PERSONALLY PETER MOODY SHOULD BE DELIGHTED

WTF are you doing on a gambling site then you reetard???

She may not have had any excuses in terms of getting a nice run, but she was well below her best.

And G1 Jockey, you seem to love your form, yet your only response to Soul getting about 9-10L closer than he should have based on form is that he's improved since leaving jail island (aka economic prosperity island). But his form is just as poor, maybe worse since leaving.

tommyjone
23 Jun 12 16:49
Joined:
10 Jun 11
| Topic/replies: 210 | Blogger: tommyjone's blog
Only the most biased aussie's still thought BC was better than Frankel after his performance the other day.

But honestly, if you think that was close to Caviar's best then you're just wrong.

I bet with plenty morons on here that she wouldnt beat the field by more than 11 lengths at 1/7!!

carrot1960
23 Jun 12 16:51
Joined:
05 Feb 08
| Topic/replies: 1,446 | Blogger: carrot1960's blog
neither does it make a miler who is 11 undefeated the best horse ever

timeform beg to differ. he IS the best horse ever.

not even the best miler,have a look at what brigadeer gerard does to mill reef in the 71 guinea's . mill reef who remained unbeaten there after till injury forced his retirement

Carrot1960, yes and in his very next race after the Guineas the Brigadier struggled to beat Sparkler (a Gp 2 horse) by the shortest of short heads in the 71 St James's Palace. Narrow squeaks happen to the best of them.

I am certain that the jockey detected all was not right with BC and that is why he was exceptionately easy on her, especially in the closing yards.  Even so, BC proved her class by picking up from what was almost a standing start to repel the closers.  I also feel that the psychology of his interview after the race was definitely not of the "beat myself up" type. He saw his first duty to be the defence of the horse's performance by assuming that responsibility to be his own.  The release by the stable that all was not right with the horse justifies this stance and makes the victory even more worthwhile.

how far below its form in aus can only be guessed but bc was def not at her best today or was she??,just watching her after 2f i was thinking she wasn,t going to stride away from these like she does in aus and even thou she eased to the front i thought to win by a couple of lengths she would have to find plenty . surely cant blame the ground as she must of raced a few times on ground other than her favoured g/f on even proper good ground so maybe more the stiff 6f at ascot told us that 6f is her absolute max  being such a big animal and on an even track which allows her massive stride to dominate  other horses . glad she held on today after the jockey error(half length winner without that) but even without that we,d be thinking she,s good but prob not the best we,ve ever seen . and she won,t be back here again so thats that.

But weren't some of us being told we were talking b0ll0cks when all we ever said was that she still has something to prove because she was being asked in this race to do something that she had never done before?

Its obvious whats happened, dont know why all the fuss.

Black caviar is a very good mare, but is no superstar. Won by a nose, ok maybe was good for half a length even a length, but no more.

And no where near as good as Frankel.In fact i would suggest in a 6f race black caviar v frankel, Frankel would be fav and would win even at his wrong distance.

Thats it end of story.

agree Maleuk01< i spoke to aussies in HK tonight, some very good judges of many years, they were disappointed and realised how good Frankel is.

Usual hype..Reminds me of the Barcelona lovers on the football forum....

If she was that good why has she not raced in Asia ?

ITS NOT THE HORSES FAULT IT WAS A 5 ON CHANCE, WE NOW KNOW SHE SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN 5 ON AND IF SHE RUNS OVER HERE AGAIN SHE WONT START AT ANYTHING LIKE THOSE ODDS AGAIN.lets be honest if she met the same horses again you woulkdnt be  in a hurry to bet any odds on about her.

Do you work for an animal charity sicko...

Horses cannot talk but if they did I am sure that Black Caviar would say....

"Please let me stay in England where they will not allow me to be paraded around in a rubber suit"...

What was that all about ....

would be good if someone could explain why frankel is the greatest, blah, blah "(another)" horse of a lifetime.

what makes him better than dubai millennium and/or zilzal for example?

some shocking disrespect on this thread about a horse whose 22 unbeaten and just won the jubilee even tho she wasnt at her bets and her jock almost fecked it up.

incred.

Well said buses; disgraceful comments from those who forget she won today's race when well below her best; and all this Frankel stuff? the two are chalk and cheese, would never to be compared and would never be to meet; and I'm a Frankel #1son who has seen every race he's run: I have never read such dire, uninformed and blatantly ignorant comment as today's victory by BC has engendered; shame on it all.

Maybe the word unbeaten makes Frankel better than those other horses maysoon3.

The thing is ilikewavingatbuses I think Frankel is one of the best if not the best horses I've ever seen and not going by the races he's won or the opposition he has beaten but a general sense by the manner of some of those wins and how visually powerful he looks when winning. I wouldn't be so arrogant though to suggest he has nothing to prove and would only have to turn up to win at the Breeders' Cup because as good as he is, he still does have those kind of things to prove and what all of what that entails.

Dancing Brave did not travel over well for the Breeders' Cup by all accounts and was said to be dehydrated during his stay in California and there were other claims such as the horse returned with dirt in its mouth (they crossed the dirt track during the race) and also that he was hit in the eye by a piece of kicked up turf but for whatever reason, that clearly wasn't his running and Frankel could go over there and not win as convincingly or even get beat but that's something I acknowledge but what some of the more arrogant Aussies on here wouldn't even entertain regarding Black Caviar.

Forget the human aspect, Aussie or not, just give BC credit for what she achieved today.

black caviar aint got the midas touch

Moore pinched Buick's today didn't he.

This was the 6th or 7th biggest pot she has ever raced for so this 'sig less money talk' is that if an ill informed idiot. Now the 'halfway round the world' line is ok for Aussies to use? So for years when we've said that about our horses in the Melbourne Cup and told we're talking nonsense we were actually right?
All these (and more) we said were reasons that we thought there was a chance she would get beat and for that aussies jumped down our throats yet now are offering up as excuses?

"maybe the word unbeaten makes Frankel better than those other horses maysoon3".

based on that (lack of) logic i dont know why anyone is disappointed in bc's run today as she's still unbeaten and that's clearly a huge factor. zilzal was unbeaten before taking on the real challenge of the breeders cup.

i expected some cobbled together low quality stuff but more imaginative than "unbeaten"

"but a general sense by the manner of some of those wins and how visually powerful he looks when winning"

"but a general sense by the manner of some of those wins and how visually powerful he looks when winning" - that's the sort of hard evidence i was expecting too.

and why was it clearly not dancing brave's running in the breeders cup? did a horse he had ran against turn the tables on him or something?

It wasn't a lack of logic at all regarding Frankel, you asked a direct question with specifically named horses and I gave you an answer to your question, which was:

what makes him better than dubai millennium and/or zilzal for example?

if you wanted Black Caviar included then you have had to say so.

Dancing Brave's career record was:


1985
Dorking Stakes, Sandown (ridden by G Starkey) WON
Soham House Stakes, Newmarket (G Starkey) WON

1986
Craven (G3), Newmarket (G Starkey) WON
2000 Guineas (G1), Newmarket (G Starkey) WON
Derby (G1), Epsom (G Starkey) 2nd
Eclipse (G1), Sandown (G Starkey) WON
King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond (G1), Ascot (Pat Eddery) WON
Select Stakes (G3), Goodwood (G Starkey) WON
Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe [b](G1)[/b], Longchamp (Pat Eddery) WON
Breeders' Cup Turf (G1), Santa Anita (Pat Eddery) 4th

he had a devastating turn of foot and won the 2000gns by about 4L with the jockey looking around and should have gone into the Breeders' Cup unbeaten after an unlucky Derby defeat and won probably the strongest Arc line up ever coming from practically last to first and running far wider than everything else too. Theatrical was a close 2nd in the Breeders' Cup race and he was beaten in the Irish Derby by Law Society and neither would have lived with Dancing Brave normally. Frankel's owner Khalid Abdullah had Damister in 3rd for that Irish Derby race and he wouldn't even be in Abdullah's top 10 horses, let alone top 10 ever.

The International Classifications awarded Dancing Brave a rating of 141 at the time compared to 138 for Frankel and 130 for Black Caviar before the most recent races. I don't hold those rating as the be all and end all but it does give you an idea by comparison of how highly Dancing Brave was rated and visually he also didn't look the same horse in running at the Breeders' Cup and his races are on YouTube to see that.

If Black Caviar had finished a well beaten 4th at RA then most would have said that wasn't her true running.....some were even saying it now as an excuse once she only just scraped home!

the lack of logic was being unbeaten, nothing to do with black caviar, i could have said kneller. kneller is better than dancing brave as the former is unbeaten and the latter isn't.

"won probably the strongest Arc line up ever" - i will be amazed if you can justify that one.

Theatrical one year older and 'opportunity' of running on lasix etc.

Damister beaten half a length-ish by Manilla, think that highlights the perils of taking associated form anywhere near literally.

it sounds like it comes down to something along the lines of :

"but a general sense by the manner of some of those wins and how visually powerful he looks when winning"

through the running of star witness, i think its safe to say that wasnt close to her running for whatever reasons.

i mean star witness, a horse that finished within under 2L to society rock last year , the same horse that black caviar gave a 7L beating and the best part of a stone in weight to eased down near the line.

its not an exact science but to me and anyone else that looks at the formbook from time to time, its obvious she wasnt at her best.

She suffered 2 muscle tears during the race. She wasn't at her best.

yeah and although thats probably true the detractors wont believe it.

As I posted, the jock knew all was not right half in; and now stand connections etc; why is that so hard to believe?

How many muscle tears has she suffered in past races - or have these not been reported before?

Do they have straight sprint tracks in Aussie racing, just wondering whether the softish ground on a straight track ebbed away at her stamina, as it seems most of her races have been on the turn when I've seen her videos.

Jun 24, 2012 -- 11:55AM, allinadayswork wrote:

Do they have straight sprint tracks in Aussie racing, just wondering whether the softish ground on a straight track ebbed away at her stamina, as it seems most of her races have been on the turn when I've seen her videos.

We do have straight races here however we don't have random hills in them.

She ripped all her chest muscles coming out of the barriers awkwardly when she tried to jump too quickly at flemington in her final start as a spring 3yo when she still narrowly defeated Wanted who came out and won the Group 1 Newmarket Handicap 1200m (our greatest sprint) four months later. The race she defeated Wanted in was at flemington on 5/9/2009 when she won a 250k Group 2 1200m sprint and still ran 1.09.96 for the 1200m, that's the only time another horse has ever got close to her at the finish and she held on to win by 3/4 length after looking beaten and still rallied to win. The injuries at the time almost ended her career so severely did she rip the muscles.

So the only time anything even gets remotely close to her is when she's injured herself in running and she still toughs it out to win.

Those injuries have zero to do with running up hills or not, its never bothered scenic blast, choisir, takeover target or Miss Andretti, Magnus etc all of who performed at their top at Ascot and whom all raced on the same racetracks in Australia.

Moody has repeatedly stated she is a very high maintenance horse and has constant ongoing chiropractic and muscle manipulation throughout her preparation due to her past muscle tears.