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Oh dear, another geezer without a clue. Bring back Jimbo imo.
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he basically sayed Frankel was the best ever because they thought he was the best ever !
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A complete numpty when it comes to ratings. Frankel has beat nothing. Cecil knows there is no competition, hence is's been allowed to train on, albeit, only up to a mile.....
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I wonder how much they (and others) were influenced by Henry Cecil's comment about the 'best ever' just after the race when highly emotional understandably !
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p.s. before the race, if it was a match, wouldn't everyone expect Frankel to beat Side Glance by at least 20 lengths ?!
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He said they know because they use 'time' and 'form'. The fact that Ascot has just laid a new track obviously never had any influence and they obviously knew when Sea Bird 11 won exactly what the going, including penetrometer, and course management conditions were. When going so particularly on times who can honestly say a Clerk of the Course is accurate with his going predictions? Making it up as they go along.
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no
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Add to that British racing is going through a bad era. A German filly bolted up in the Arc and an Aussie 6 year old is dominating (badly) middle distances. Plus potentially the best horse in France is Cirrus Des Aigles who had to run 34 times, yes 34 times) before he won a Group 1. Either he is improving or the standards are falling. Methinks it is the latter.
When Sea Bird 11 won the horses around him were brilliant and he murdered them. When Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef were racing it was a golden era with Nijinsky (Triple crown), Rheingold (Arc beating Allez France), Allez France (Arc following year and better than Dahlia) and Dahlia (2 King Georges and Juddmonte). To name but a few. |
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... not to mention the fields that Dancing Brave beat in The Arc and El Gran Senor in The Guineas,
are the horses Frankel has beaten in the same caliber ?! |
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El Gran Senor only rated 3lbs superior to Excelebration. Timeform making it up as they go along.
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... not to mention the fields that Dancing Brave beat in The Arc and El Gran Senor in The Guineas,
are the horses Frankel has beaten in the same caliber ?! No, they're not....but DBrave and EGS didnt win by anywhere nr 11 lengths, did they? do you understand even the basics of handicapping? |
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that really is laughable
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Timeform didnt have Excelebration running anywhere near his best rating on Tuesday btw
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in what way laughable FT? you saying the winning distance is irrelevant in handicapping?!
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yes Dunc,
and I also understand the basics of hysteria, Frankel is a fantastic horse etc but you can only beat what is put in front of you by so many lengths etc, did he beat Canford Cliffs by 11 lengths ?! |
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I was laughing at El Gran Senor only rated 3lbs superior to Excelebration imo !
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All bit of blox they had hawkwing on a crazy mark
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Duncan id say that comparison was a little iffy, Frankel inho was ridden out to his full extent, the other two at the mile trip were A- Ridden with other races in mind and were not shaken up until later in the race having come there with jocks quite still
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If Frankel had given Canford Cliffs an 11 length beating it would have been a beyond-Arkle rating!
He gave everything in the field a 2 stone beating on Tues...yes, they werent out of the top drawer but they dont have to be for that to mean Frankel has to be 140+ (and that is with Excelebration rated well below form, as i say). hysteria? we are talking a few pounds either way whichever way it's sliced, so hardly hysteria.....your comment is far more hysterical! |
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not really, I would have him the equal of the great or even better, if the horses he has beaten win a plethora pg group ones among themselves !
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Thsnkfully the BHA still have Dancing Brave ahead of Frankel. Perhaps they know nothing about handicapping either Duncs?
And what you must take into consideration is that the Excelebration rating of 133 is based on his proximity to Frankel. I think Excelebration is at best 123 and Frankel 140. I don't think Excelebration ran to form in the QA where the 3rd horse is only really a 113 horse. |
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pg = of
specsavers for me |
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what i will say brigust is that the BHA handicapping is much better now than it was 25 yrs ago...even tho head honcho Phil Smith still makes you wonder at times
the point is there was 2½ lengths covering the first 5 in D Braves's Arc...this whole thread has people talking as tho the winning distances are irrelevant, which makes me wonder whether any on here have ever handicapped a race in their lives. |
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The thing to remember about ratings is that they are contained within a flat season all based in relation to each other horse and nothing else, the reference points are floating and not even anchored down by the clock as even that is offset by the going allowance. If every horse on the planet improved by 5lb's overnight not one person on the planet would be any wiser as each horse would still be static in relation to any other horse. If 50% of the horses improved by 5lb's, the improvers would ultimately only improve on average by 2½lbs with the other half be lowered by on average 2½lbs over time. Over time the horse population cannot improve as a whole according to ratings irrespective of whether they are 10lb's better or 10lb's worse than they are nowadays compared to 40 years ago.
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Thsnkfully the BHA still have Dancing Brave ahead of Frankel.
I suppose rose-tinted nostalgia is the flipside of modern-day hype  |
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I would have secretariat on top still
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what do timeform have secretariat on btw?
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winning distances ARE irrelevant SOMETIMES because horses have different styles of WINNING a race,
but the caliber of the horses they beat is NOT IRRELEVANT as the horses in that 2½ lengths covering the first 5 in D Braves's Arc race were all G1 horses ! |
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144
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The milers Frankel is trouncing are very ordinary.
The Excelebration rating is laughable. |
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I wonder what Timeform would have Ribot on if he'd raced in this era and achieved an unbeaten 16 including 2 Arcs,
probly 170 |
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It always amuses me that when trying to diss a champion the totally unsubstantiated opinion that the opposition are poor or ordinary seems to be prevalent
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... or even worse, injured in a race as people seem to be happy to accept that Canford Cliffs was
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Not dissing a champion,
just don't think he has achieved (formwise) what the heart is dictating ! |
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Find it hard to say frankie is the best ever on what he has done that is saying something when you have so many great horses gone before has he beat a classic winner yet I can't think of one
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Ok heres a point, was frankel ridden to obtain the best possible rating possible because of history and the points made after Newbury about him racing at one distance rather than to just win the race, and, just as was the case last year after the guineas, will his next race be a little flatter??
Eddery was a jock who liked to come late, fast, or on the bridle on the MVOB and it looked good |
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Micky mouse German ones don't count
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well he won the guineas and was hardly likely to meet Pour Moi or a leger winner, 3yo's haven't met elders as of yet .... heavy cherry picking noflapleft
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a good point Zil hence my point about different styles of winning and winning distances being irrelevant in some cases whereas the opposition is not irrelevant !
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There seems to be a lot of wide margin successes recently. Homecoming Queen is just one example.
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