When the fences were bigger, they used to go slower ........

i agree with you porkins4, lets look at the facts, there has always been 40 runners or thereabouts, there has always been the same number of fences, it has always been or certainly for a very long time 4 and half miles but in recent times we seem to experiencing more fatalities, what are the resons for this?, well for a start the prize money has rocketed over the last 30 years or so, this has made the race a target for the bigger owners who then enter a better class of chaser, better class chasers run faster and hit the ground harder when they fall.
add to this the fact that the fences have been made far easier thus aiding a faster pace and it adds up to fatalities, in fact the class of chaser now currently competing in the national has risen so much that the vast majority of runners that took part in the national pre 1990 would be eliminated at the final declaration stage these days.

Spot on porkins.

From re-run, Synchronised jumped at least 4 after falling. That wont stop the idiots saying it's too cruel. No-one made him jump on riderless, it's just a very sad accident.

Totally agree,speed the factor in horses now rather than jumping.

before the Gold Cup, it was thought that Synchronised would be a perfect Grand National type as he often struggled to lay up and seemed to be an out and out stayer. Also, the fact that he ran loose before the race had no impact on his performance and it is a complete red herring, he was not injured or tired as he only fell at the 6th (Bechers)

Well said Spion Kop, by making the fences easier they sewed the seeds of today

so no horses died when it was high n slow?

not at the rate they are with the so called safety modifications

ok well then email the bha and tell them.

The powers that be have sucked up to the animal welfare brigade. Lower fences better horses more deaths more speed.

I thought that, the really seemed to tumble today, didn't enjoy watching it tbh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National

Taken in 12 year periods the race seems to be getting worse, and seems to have started when they lowered fences

We now have a catch 22 situation, the race will never be palatable to the General Public again as the RSPCA and other welfare groups have wrongly identified the roots of the injuries to the casualties.

Make the fences higher

By lowering them it generating more speeds, more deaths, and less of a specticle... There are no positives from doing it.

I seriously think the RSPCA, once a year punters etc can just jog on. Their input is only making the situation worse. The BHA & co's constant pandering to groups of people that dont even watch the sport is a joke, they keep causing bad publicity for themselves. Which is just creating more inputted from totally random people, its a bad cycle.

It's obviously not just the height of the fences though otherwise you'd expect more deaths in 2m hurdle races. And I don't particularly buy that the fields are too big either as you still get accidents as the field is whittled down and I personally didnt see a massive amount of interference from the loose horses but they obviously need to find a way of catching those horses as quickly as possible.
The problem is the nature of the fences and the landing areas. Need to throw in more uphill inclined fences and sort out the drops on the landing areas. They changed bechers this year by 4" so its a 4'10" jump with a 5'6" landing. Why didnt they just level it off, why does there need to be a drop?

How you going to expect forty horses to run slow in a race with so much hype and tension in it, you cant even keep the horses off the starting tape as horses are nervous animals that share there pack fears, only we can save them if we make the decisions and changes for them, less is a mark of our own ignorance for which for some there is sadly no escape.

Agreed about levelling, like a water jump, if a horse can't see what it't landing on, how can it adjust and jump properly ?!
Poor things don't know there's a bigger drop.

If they started one of those epetitions to Ban the National, they'd have a good chance for 100,000 signatures.

The fences are taller than all chase fences around the country and thicker, the birch slows them down and tips them sideways and mostly when the horses descovers an exra 2 foot drop on the other side on to there necks and sometins with twelve stone on top of them, there is no escapre from the resulting injuries.

To be honest looking at that list is the likelihood of a horse dying in the National that much higher than any other fence race?

It says it is but the average is 6 every 1000 and 6 every 450 or so in the National. But thats when applying the results from 2000-2010 a decade which has a particularly high number of deaths given the races history. So 7 died that decade and only about 70 have died since the race was first run in 1839. So that was a particularly high decade for deaths compared to the races history.

You would also expect the National to have a higher fatality rate as it's a longer race and has more fences as you would expect a 3 mile chase to likely have more deaths statistically than a 2 mile with less fences.

It seems to me from that the problem is not necesarily the race itself but the fact that the fatality rate seem to be ever increasing in the last couple of decades to the point where over 25% of fatalities have occured in the last 20 years.

also due to better draining faster ground ,softer ground leads to less finishers but also less injuries,
the rspca dont want horses whipped in heavy ground ,prefer them flying round like dodgems and breaking legs.

what we also have to remember is the fact that over the last 30 years or so the nh breed has changed and is still changing, the old fashioned chasing type that matured around 10 years of age is becoming less and less popular and gradually starting to disappear, owners are looking for chasers that peak around the age of 8 or 9 and more and more flat bred horses are being used to breed nh horses, even some derby winners are considered ideal for the nh breed, which imo is crazy.
the nh breed is becoming faster and faster which cannot be good for the spor "in the long run.
i used to love the nh hunt but it's been 15 years since i had a bet at the cheltenham festival and at least 12 years since my last national bet because of what i've outlined above, i have nothing against the sport of nh but i fear for it's future, because if the politician's suddenly sniff votes by banning the sport then i fear that will be the end of it.

If faster and smaller is the problem then why are there not enormous fatalities in the top hurdle races, or at the normal tracks where the fences are much smaller?

because a horse can whack a hurdle and there is some give, and the vast majority of hurdle races and chases don't have the prizemoney or prestige of the national.

You make a different shape when you jump a fence for a start.

How many hurdles have 40 runners with a run to the 1st on a straight course as long as down to Bechers with 6 fences to jump

Spion Kop makes some good points on breeding as well, ground management should be looked at, imo drainage is too good, so they have to water more thus making root growth and by definition, the surface more uneven

Shrewd dude, yes statistically theres a higher chance of seeing a fatlity in the national as youre looking at a potential of 1200 jumps (Cheltenahm gold cup for comparison could only have been 330 this year). Add to that theyre notoriously tough fences, and that this is the only race that many people will watch and theres going to be trouble.
Biggest issue is making the fences safer. I know some people like how testing it is but it would be an even bigger spectacle if more horses are still there at the end. I could handle a reduction in number of fences jumped but i would hate to see a reduction in the field size as i think thats one of the biggest selling points of the race.

high-lander you really are a dirk (sic).When you reduce the height of the fences then the horses will run faster as they have less height to jump.I think that there was an early case of appeasing the liberals that cannot stand any danger (and I am not talking about the cowards that opposed fighting Hitler) it was called the Queen's Vase and you will be telling me that the distance is too far far !! You disgust me....

Yes theres a higher chance but my point was in the history of the race is it really that much higher than expected?

If you are just more likely to have a fatality in the national because the race has more fences as opposed to anything about the actual course then is that really a problem. A horse always has a chance of injuring itself at any fence it jumps so the longer the distance and more fences the more risk in the same way that the more races a horse runs in the more risk of injury.

The problem is as you say the fences are notorious and a big deal is made out of the gruelling course which back fires when a horse is injured.

The problem seems to be though the increase in fatalities in recent years.

homefortea, what the **** has Hitler got to do with it your posts are becoming increasingly bizarre. I think you need to sleep it off son. At least I hope you are drunk or high...for your sake!

Does seem to be more in recent years but hopefully (and strangely) this should help to bring agreement on how to improve the races safety in ways that keep it as a flagship race. If the race is getting more dangerous then the field size is obviously not the problem.

Year     Horse name     Fence #     Fate     Note     Source

2012     Synchronised     6 & 22     Fell     Fractured hind-leg in fall but carried on riderless until the 9th fence where he stopped and was euthanised.    

2012     According to Pete     6 & 22     Brought down     Fractured a leg and was put down.    

2011     Ornais     4 & 20     Fell     Suffered a broken neck and later euthanised.    

2011     Dooneys Gate     6 & 22     Fell     Suffered a broken neck and later euthanised.    

2009     Hear The Echo     While running     Collapsed     Collapsed on the run-in and later died.    

2008     McKelvey     4 & 20     Unseated     Continued running riderless but collided with a barrier and was unable to regain his feet.    

2007     Graphic Approach     While running     Collapsed     Fell at Becher's Brook but continued running riderless before collapsing with concussion. He was euthanised several days later.    

2006     Tyneandthyneagain     1 & 17     Fell     Continued running riderless until falling later, was diagnosed with a spinal injury and euthanised.    

2003     Goguenard     3 & 19     Unseated     Injured in a mêlée and later euthanised.

2002     The Last Fling     8 & 24     Fell     Continued running riderless until falling later.

2002     Manx Magic     4 & 20     Fell        

1999     Eudipe     6 & 22     Fell        

1998     Pashto     1 & 17     Fell        

1998     Do Rightly     4 & 20     Fell     Suffered a heart attack whilst jumping the fence    

1998     Griffins Bar     While running     Injured after fall     Fell at the fifth fence but the vet reported his fatal injury was sustained while galloping riderless afterwards.    

1997     Straight Talk     14 & 30     Fell        

1997     Smith's Band     4 & 20     Fell        

1996     Rust Never Sleeps     While running     Pulled up     Euthanised after the race.    

1991     Ballyhane     After finishing     Collapsed     Suffered a haemorrhage and died after completing the race.    

1990     Roll-A-Joint     8 & 24     Fell        

1990     Hungary Hur     While running     Pulled up         [18]
1989     Brown Trix     6 & 22     Fell        

1989     Seeandem     6 & 22     Fell        

1987     Dark Ivy     6 & 22     Fell     Killed instantly landing head first at Becher's Brook    

1984     Earthstopper     After finishing Collapsed     Collapsed and died after finishing the race in fifth place.    

1979     Kintai     15     Brought down     Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1979     Alverton     6 & 22     Fell        

1978     Rag Trade     While running     Pulled up. Euthanised after the race.    

1977     Winter Rain     6 & 22     Fell     Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1977     Zeta's Son     9 & 25     Fell     Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1975     Land Lark     15     Fell        

1975     Beau Bob     6 & 22     Fell        

1973     Grey Sombrero     15     Fell     Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1967     Vulcano     3 & 19     Fell        

1959     Henry Purcell     6 & 22     Fell        

1954     Dominick's Bar     2 & 18     Fell        

1954     Paris New York     4 & 20     Fell        

1954     Legal Joy     13 & 29     Fell Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1954     Coneyburrow     12 & 28     Fell        

1952     Skouras     6 & 22     Fell        

1946     Symbole     6 & 22     Fell        

1936     Avenger     1 & 17     Fell     Suffered a broken neck in fall at 17th fence, then euthanised.    

1931     Swift Roland     6 & 22     Fell     Fatally injured when another faller landed on him.    

1931     Drin     9 & 25     Fell     Suffered a broken leg in fall at 25th fence and later euthanised.    

1930     Derby Day         Fell        

1929     Stort         Fell     Suffered a broken leg and later euthanised.    

1926     Lone Hand         Fell        

1922     The Inca     6 & 22     Fell     Suffered a broken leg and later euthanised.    

1922     Awbeg     8 & 24     Fell     Suffered a broken leg and later euthanised.    

1907     Kilts     1 & 17     Fell        

1901     True Blue         Fell        

1891     The Emperor     While running     Pulled up. Having been pulled up, fell and broke his back while running back to the stables.    

1882     Wild Monarch         Fell        

1872     Primrose     2 & 18     Fell     Injured in fall and later euthanised.    

1871     Lord Raglan         Fell        

1868     Chimney Sweep     While running     Collided with barrier     Injured when collided with barrier on the Melling Road and euthanised.    

1863     Telegraph     5 & 21     Fell     Injured in fall and euthanised.    

1861     The Conductor         Refused     Injured in mêlée and later euthanised.    

1856     Banstead     2 & 18     Fell     Injured in fall and euthanised.    

1855     Miss Mowbray         Fell        

1854     Bedford     9 & 25     Fell     Injured in fall and euthanised.    

1849     The Curate     2 & 18     Fell     Injured in fall and euthanised.
   
1849     Equinox     3 & 19     Fell
       
1849     Kilfane     4 & 20     Fell
       
1848     Counsellor         Fell
       
1848     The Sailor         Fell        

1848     Blue Pill         Fell
       
1845     Clansman     8 & 24     Fell
       
1839     Dictator     9 & 25     Fell

Just been defending the National against the usual once a year don't understand anything about racing idiots who want all of horse racing banned. My arguement was that the lower fences and therefore greater speed is the problem. I found the following on wikipedia which seems to back this up.
Horse deaths in the race 1933 - 1952 was 2 , 1953 - 1972 was 7 , 1973 - 1992 was 15 and 1993 - 2012 18.
Not old enough to remember any race before Red Rum but sure they seem to go a much slower pace in DVD's I have of old races. Really think we need to go back to bigger but softer fences

I agree whole heartedly about lowering the fences thus creating more speed is a big part of the problem.However I don't think the blame lies solely on Aintree.Modern chasers nowadays are bred from flat sires.True most of them have plenty of stamina & are athletic but they have no bone.thus when they fall or hit a fence there's no strength in their legs as there was in the old chasing type.Another thing which could be an issue is the fences at a lot of other courses are too soft.I think these courses deliberately have soft fences to get a higher quantity of entries but running horses over these softer fences only learns horses bad habits.If they get into the habit of trailing a leg or in fact belting these softer fences when they come up against decent fences they end up on the deck.

if we have smaller fences then the horses need slowing down by watering to produce a soft surface to run on ............softer the ground safer the race

Dewey, two quick points about your list...

Firstly, the 19th century races tended to have fewer runners.
Secondly, I suspect that fatalities were under-recorded in the earlier years.

The basis of the logic of this thread is that

(1) Greater speed equals greater risk of death in steeplechasing in the Grand National
event held at Aintree.

(2) That lowering the fences a small amount in the past has increased the speed at which fences can be jumped.


Well in answer to argument (1) it can be said that a slower a fenced is jumped then the less possible chance of a fall but the how come the fences in this marathon trip of the grand National are on average met at a lower average speed then every other steeple chase in the country at equivalent grade one which do not have the same high degree of possible fatal
injury, on this basis point (1) is incorrect and purely subjective.

In answer to point (2) the effect of slightly smaller fences may of allowed the first fences to be jumped quicker but are all the injuries caused by the impact speed of the accident or the severe difficultly in jumping the fence and landing safely in one piece over much larger obstacles then are attempted by top chasers in normal sporting conditions?

The jury is out on this one.......

I much prefer the Irish and Scottish National races as they are not as Dangerous and much more sporting.

I

The reason the fences were lowered was to stop the horrific site of seeing horses jumping in to piles of horses and jockeys on the track after the fences!

Would you like to see that again ?

History Maker - In the 55 years from 1928 to 1983 there were 18 GN feilds of 40 plus runners.  Five of those feilds resulted in fatalities in the race. 1929 - 66 runners and 1 fatality. 1930 - 41 runners and 1 fatality.  1931 - 43 runners and 2 fatalities.  1952 - 47 runners and 1 fatality. 1967 - 44 runners and 1 fatality. 1977 - 42 runners and 2 fatalities.

* fields

I did say the 19th century, which is the 1800s.

I'm not trying to make argument with your general point, just to add a little context with respect to the list that you gave.

OP is an idiot............slower now than ever.

the race has just got too fast, this is what the authorities need to look at. Not cutting numbers, Aintree is too fast a track to go lickety-split from the tapes going up.

Well in answer to argument (1) it can be said that a slower a fenced is jumped then the less possible chance of a fall but the how come the fences in this marathon trip of the grand National are on average met at a lower average speed then every other steeple chase in the country at equivalent grade one which do not have the same high degree of possible fatal
injury, on this basis point (1) is incorrect and purely subjective.

Source?