Online Bookmaker restricting procedure - facts required

As far as i know if you consistantly beat the price you are toast with all of them.

They dont want anybody price sensitive and that goes from sporting ods upto Laddies.

Please no general answers. All the general answers are known by everyone. Looking for insider info. Might not get anyone prepared to share and thats fine and the thread will drop away.

Think you will find ive covered it.

Good luck all the same, because il sure be interested if certain firms have a trigger.

It just seems very strange to me that I've had many accounts with same firm via friends etc and some get closed very quick and some just get left to run smoothly for the longest time regardless of how much I win/prices etc.

Tom  How is the weather in Wisbech cold?  Read your thread about poor Wisbech it is a shame  I was there last summmer what a change from last time back in the 80'S. Have you ever thought about moving to Little Hunstanton.   Visit several times in the  summer and remains fairly civilised considering the overall state of the country at present. Super beach for kite surfing beginners, wind turbines some how blend in with view from beach, and there are some decent views on the beach. Our eastern european compatriots are there but usually well behaved.  Difficult to carry a knife when you are in swim trunks.  You are in a wonderful part of the Uk  sometimes you can be overwhelmed by those Big Skies Hang on in  Good Luck from Blighted Bedfordshire

Lets hope we find out then . . . good luck.

I work in the fraud and risk management dept of a major online bookie, more the fraud side of things to be honest, I can tell you what the triggers are...but I would have to kill you all after.

It is highly amusing that bookmakers have departments that are named "anti-fraud" or "security"
as its quite clear bookmakers regard winning customers as criminals, whats even more amusing its that they themselves are probably the biggest group of high street robbery experts in the British publics history.

No wonder Betfair is classed as the "white Knite" in comparison in the betting indusrty as they make charges and commisions aside from the betting and not because of taking corporation advantage of a customer by being monopolistic pre sportiong excahnge.

before the sporting exchanges, bookmakers where allowed to control the market price together as a unit as a monopoly which is in direct breach of monoplolies commissions rules, and no-one batted an eye-lid, even allowing bookamers to buy up greyhound tracks and control all markets at courses via manipulation of office money, oh dear, sticky fingers.

The only real and true markets are the early price markets as competition is enabled via natural competition freedoms.

I know personally the head of so called security and risk management of all 3 main firms and apart from coral the rest are all failed coppers.

Complete chancers who have never placed a bet in their lives.

there is fraud involved within bookmaers but the majority of it is staff fiddling.

The bookmaking industry in this country is without doubt a kind ofr legal robbery. It's fraud from within.

You win they close you down.

Please can we have it ALL ways!

so for that reason one can understand the need, but far to easily the same departments handle complaints from customers who are not paid out winnings, surely customers should come first and not profits?

the main prblem with buisness is that morals are sometimes hung up with the managements coats, are even no existant like the boss of RBS bank

"It is highly amusing that bookmakers have departments that are named "anti-fraud" or "security"
as its quite clear bookmakers regard winning customers as criminals, whats even more amusing its that they themselves are probably the biggest group of high street robbery experts in the British publics history."

Fraud departments take care of multiple accounts, bonus abusers, etc. as well as outright card fraud. People coming on here saying "I had 1 losing bet and was closed down" have probably been done by these despite thinking they would get away with a new card, new address, different email address, etc. The days of starting a 5th new account with Skybét are long gone as personal information needs to equate to that on the card or there is a good chance they will dig you out. Frustrating, but unless you use other people the game is up.

The only realistilly fair betting organisation on the planet is the one we are posting on now and its often under-estimated or abused for all the wrong reasons.

Long live all sporting exchanges.

Dial this number and report a complaint, tell them what an embarrsement of an outfit they really are  ..02085155999

The point with opening multiple accounts is that they have your IP address.If that is fixed then you are fooked.I often muse as I sip a glass of Pinot in the back garden (not tonight!) how many accounts have been closed because someone has just moved into the ex-mansion of a player or merely logged on in an internet cafe or wi-fi hotspot.Who knows how many are restricted or closed down that would have been major losers !! Plus there will be "cookies" put into your computer that trace your betting.Act like a drug dealer with his mobile and every time you can access a new identity buy a new netbook for each one and make sure that you have a new ip address...(proxy server anyone !)

Just as I thought no one knows anything.

dont say that guru, bff knows plenty,havent you read all the cr4p he posted? [roll eyes]

Plentyon . . . Morgage free at the mo would mean takeing another one out

But then again . . . .

racingguru   The problem will never go away. there are ways of keeping them open for longer, but those that have worked this out will not be stupid enough to come on here and tell you. My saying is "making money from horses is easy, getting the money on is the hardest part of the job"

agreed - I think I've stumbled on ways to keep certain accs open but it seems hit and miss. Profiling yourself to be a mug is not so easy. Whatever I seem to do I can't keep the likes of Lad, WH, SJ etc open for more than a few weeks if that.

I was hoping for info from people who worked for these firms and didn't think for one minute a pro is gonna share his secrets. I know I wouldn't.

Guru anyone who works for a major firm is so scared of losing his job there would not dare to post.The only representatives you get on here are their PR apologists who are easy to spot and appear after their firm has been subject to a heavy dose of reality !!

Ex-workers as per the OP.

Open as many different bookie accounts as you can in the first instance.

Spread as many of the bets between them as possible (ie split £300 win on a 4/1 into 3 x £100 bets with 3 different bookies).

Keep winnings per bet to £500 or under. Trigger alerts on nearly all bookmakers with winnings above either £500 or £1000, these bets will then be scrutinised by trading team for arb or price beating, mark put on your account to scrutinise all bets, restrictions/closure then follows.

Throw them a few red herrings, back a horse with them and lay on here for minimal loss that you believe will not win or will drift markedly, the BOG concession allows you to nick a few quid on them anyway when they get beat, HTH

There is no future for you on the internet if you are shrewd. Technology gets you so quick these days. Beating the SP, cross referencing your account with known bots/arbers, information from 1 trainer, IP address (if a new account after previous closure). No lie I have worked through the full list on oddschecker with 5 different debit cards in the last 12 months and I only bet small (up to £25). I've learnt that on-line you only keep going now if you just play multiples. For other lively stuff you may get on for a time on the phone or in the shops.

Big boss has got some of the strategy right. I have dealt with strategies extensively in the past. The answer to the question has rarely been touched upon on here. No insiders have given up very much information that would be considered useful in respect of the question. There have been a few occassional posters who have given brief glimpses of inside a trading room.

These have given the impression that the closing of accounts can be down to random whims of random traders with little or no real strategy. punter X won, and he beat our price, therefore he must be in the know or an arber...close him down. This seems to be a common enough event, even when the said bookmakers were going out of their way to give the highest price in the country.

I would have loved a really good account of what goes on in the bookmakers trading rooms while I still had accounts. Unfortunately, no one has ever spilled the beans to any meaningful extent on here.

It could be a decent post.

Of course the main reason for all this difficulty getting on is the website you are logged on to now. Betfair is great as it gives you an alternative to the normal bookmaker type experience but its a bloody big stick to beat you with. It sets an industry standard regarding the price of a selection and makes bookmakers so defensive regarding any bet offered at a price bigger than the exchange. Gone are the days when the bookies had an opinion, what is the point when the punters opinion is clear to see by looking on here. Its like going in to buy a car with how much your willing to pay tatooed on your forehead. The number of times I've had a neandathol customer services clerk tell me I am an "arb" player must be pushing 30, I've never laid a horse/sport on an exchange in my life.

Of course the main reason for all this difficulty getting on is the website you are logged on to now. Betfair is great as it gives you an alternative to the normal bookmaker type experience but its a bloody big stick to beat you with. It sets an industry standard regarding the price of a selection and makes bookmakers so defensive regarding any bet offered at a price bigger than the exchange. Gone are the days when the bookies had an opinion, what is the point when the punters opinion is clear to see by looking on here. Its like going in to buy a car with how much your willing to pay tatooed on your forehead. The number of times I've had a neandathol customer services clerk tell me I am an "arb" player must be pushing 30, I've never laid a horse/sport on an exchange in my life.

The crazy thing about bookies closing accounts is that most of them are losing accounts, the problem is you are not losing at a fast enough rate. the vast majority of arbers accounts will lose in the long run if they weren"t wouldnt everyone be backing horses that you can trade out on here, bookies have a short term look out on everything and that will eventually cause there demise.

So the reality is the big door is open for a bookmaker who wants to play the game. Who dosent have reems of shareholders to appease and is happy to have an opinion.

I suppose that rules just about everybody out

There will never be no bookies, despite the few shrewdies there will always be plenty of people who are less fortunate.

Wait until Mfordy gets in from school, imo, he's been getting his bets on tipster movers with no problems whatsoever for getting on for a decade.

There is no way around it, imo, and as someone points out above, technological advances have made it even harder to keep accounts alive.

It's only going to get worse, imo, and until the totally contemptible betting media start doing their jobs and actually reporting the truth about the way the bookmaking industry operate, only people that lose will ever be able to bet in the future, imo (obviously this won't create  any problems for Millington and the majority of his 'experts')...

The only way bookies would start taking bets again is if you outlawed FOBT but as this will never happen due to mps and bookies being cap and hand   with each other things will only get worse rather than better

i used to work for one of the bookies mentioned here, dont really want to give out which one, as i know some of them are on here...

theresbeenagoal has put up a pertinent post. they were SO quick to link accounts (in some cases wrongly!), and those on here getting knocked back after one bet are surely on 4/5/6th account. obviously pricewise lovers were flagged immediately, as well as (this is a few years back) anyone using isiris! same with arbers, although this wasnt as big a deal during my time. one other thing, we had quite a few ex-in the business folk working for us, so they would know if certain customers had access to info.

they basically gave every customer a grade, i will call them a, b, c, d, e.
a - the mugs. take everything and everything off these guys. patterns of behaviour very easy to spot.
b - every new and un monitored customer. the normal 10 pound guessers.
c - monitor. no action taken yet, but if they start getting tasty, they move onto...
d - restricted takeout, refer bets if close to or over takeout
e - lively! refer everything, draconian restrictions

every grade had a takeout restriction, bar 'a'. again, as has been said, a lot of it was down to traders whim...when someone obviously bet on a certain trainer, jockey etc, that was one thing, but as an example...we had an 'a' customer, complete mug, used to put 1k patents on 3 shorties. chased like a fecker. was 100s of k down with us. then, he catches his 3 winners, 2 or 3 days in a row, as you would expect to happen occassionally. i come in the next day, and he's a 'd'! was interesting trying to explain this to him after he quite rightly he'd been funding our profits for years!

The only way bookies would start taking bets again is if you outlawed FOBT but as this will never happen due to mps and bookies being cap and hand   with each other things will only get worse rather than better

That simply isn't true. It could only happen if there were no exchanges as well. The concept of exchanges is good but it is naive to suggest that it doesn't come at a cost.

The old days of punter vs bookmaker with horse racing will never be repeated because they can no longer take a stance due to the ability to lay on BF.

Of course the other issue is that we all assume that these guys making the decisions to restrict accounts actually know what they are doing and have some sort of expert knowledge. In reality they are prob thick spotty robots just assuming that anyone that gets a better price than betfair is an arber.

I think that is a fair point. Everyone thinks that each individual restriction is the result of a carefully considered account review when the reality is that there appears to be far more of a scattergun approach leading to significant, often innocent, collateral damage.

They know their tactics get rid of the majority of winning punters at the cost of a few they would rather not lose. However the cost involved in making sure that just the unprofitable punters are restricted is probably not worth it.

Last two statements are spot on, you would be surprised at the level of expertise, or rather not, at several of the firms in question.

Which leads to another point, ever wondered why a lot of things in the country seem to be run in a state of shambles and hardly anything that is costed seems to come in at the price mentioned.

the only way is to bet in cash at live shows in shops.untraceable if you go around to diff ones..

Banks, genuinely, how does a punters' 'ability to lay on Betfair' make any difference ultimately to a bookmakers' bottom line...??

Sky bet closed my account a couple of years ago. The reason given was that " the pattern of betting indicated that I was laying off on the betting exchange to make a profit". I pointed ot that I didn't , and sent them copies of my betfair account showing hardly any lay bets to prove I didn't "arb".The response was the usual :- "The trader's decision is final !

Banks, genuinely, how does a punters' 'ability to lay on Betfair' make any difference ultimately to a bookmakers' bottom line...??

My view is that it is impossible for them to have an opinion that differs from the exchanges.

In the pre BF days they could bet aggresively and take a stance in the market knowing that the element of risk for the punter was still there regardless of how good the price is. Nowadays they can't go bigger than BF because the money won't stop until they are below the BF price.

Think of it like this. You have got a £10k pot and there is a horse being offered at 2/1 that you believe is an even money shot. How much would you bet it for? Most would back it for £4k at 2's and lay it for £6k at evens giving you a £2k profit.

Consider the same scenario pre exchanges. The horse that you think should be evens is being offered at 2's. How much of your £10k bank do you bet? I doubt very much it would be 40% of it and that is where the problem lies. It makes it impossible for bookmakers to bet to opinions because if that opinion goes in the face of the BF market the horse is overbet and the price has to be cut almost immediately.

It's a shame really because it makes life a lot harder for the good judges and in fact they have now got a double whammy of weak early BF markets to go with it.

banks , what do the bookmakers do now if they think an even money shot on betfair should be 2/1 ?

Lay it at Even money!!

Beat me to it!

zilzal1 is right. Offer it at 10/11 and lay at evens on BF if the 10/11 doesn't attract money.

KILDIMO ARE YOU SHORE U GAVE US THE RIGHT NUMBER THEY OFFERED ME A **** FOR A SCORE FULL FRONTAL SEX FOR 60 QUID HAND RELIEF FOR A PONY ,AND I DARENT REPEAT WHAT THE DOOR MAN WOULD DO FOR 3 QUID

Nowadays they can't go bigger than BF because the money won't stop until they are below the BF price

do you mean if there is 300 to lay a horse trading at 12.5 on here , they cant go 12/1 . why ? koral have around 1500 shops , how does that equate . 20 p bet per shop .
i have asked you this before but i didnt get a reply . is it a statistical fact that if you back any horse that trades shorter on betfair than with bookmakers prices you will be in profit long term ?

I THINK THAT IS A BIG POSSSIBILITY RCING

is it a statistical fact that if you back any horse that trades shorter on betfair than with bookmakers prices you will be in profit long term ?

No idea but that is the simplistic view they take. Statistically it is likely to be true as BF is the sum of a number of opinions as opposed to a bookmaker pricing up on the basis of a single opinion.

It is basically those that take advantage that get restricted and closed, those that open multiple accounts taking advantage of the special offers and free bets and busing them that are ultimately to blame. No bookmaker likes or will put up with a punter whom the perceive to be taking advantage. As far as all bookmakers are concerned, gambling is for social enjoyment and nothing more, after all, this is what the industry is fundamentally all about, those that want to and can make a living from it can take a hike!

Don't you mean "as far as all bookmakers are concerned gambling is about taking money off the dim and demented" ?

Banks you are at it again...Apologist....

Where?

Tell me what I have said that is not correct.

You are so blinkered it is embarrasing.

This is not a hard question to answer.

Bookmakers look for two things:

1) people who make money (obviously); and
2) that the horses they back firm in the market after they've backed them.

Backing firmers indicates you've got a better set of prices than the market so out you go.

Banks I have been in a Senior Management position at a major Bookmaker.To think that you have to be below the Betfair price that may be available for a couple of pounds is laughable.Furthermore if FOBTs were removed from Betting Shops (an unlikely saga) then of course "Bookmakers" would have to go back to offering the public bets on horse-racing because their turnover will have dropped so much that their share price will have fallen through the floor.In that case for a while turnover would indeed be king, just like it was in the noughties when I won enough money to buy my house outright.And yes I do live in the Country....

Out of interest what do you consider a "Senior Management" position at a major firm to be?

By the way the share price is more to do with the potential of the online offering these than the shops these days but I'm sure as "Senior Management" you knew this anyway.

Banks you really are the original horses arse and I am not the first to state that to you.First up I was "Trading Controller" which pretty much meant...Secondly anyone who does indeed hold shares in a major "Bookmaker" and is hoping for a "potential" uplift should think again.Indeed the whole USA deregulation has been oversold and any firm from these shores that think that they will be allowed to knock back the fair citizens of that country should think again.The Asian Bookmakers who incidentally allow winners to bet (!) are in pole position to take advantage and good luck to them..

Is that you agreeing with me? Best make sure that doesn't happen again!

Can't be bothered to get into discussions with you to be honest. Your views are limited to say the least. If the pinnacle of your experience is as a trading controller then I'm afraid we are on a different page and that is why you have such narrow views.

Be lucky.

.we had an 'a' customer, complete mug, used to put 1k patents on 3 shorties. chased like a fecker. was 100s of k down with us. then, he catches his 3 winners, 2 or 3 days in a row, as you would expect to happen occassionally. i come in the next day, and he's a 'd'! was interesting trying to explain this to him after he quite rightly he'd been funding our profits for years!

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whoever made that decision should have been sacked on the spot for having no understanding of probability.