Now I know what Feck means by cruelty over the jumps

Feck is aginst obstacle jumping too? Thought it was just the whip.

I'm against jump racing because the courses will never put the safety of the horses first when the ground is unsuitable for jumping.

Erm, don't let me put words in Feck's mouth, but he does have a point.

Jump racing will go because the courses will inevitably hang themselves.

Remember we only see the 'finish'. There are a lot of distressed horses at the back.

Feck off

Feck, after they have done away with the whip and are commencing the 10 month review into jump racing, I will look forward to reading your views on the subject...

another good man lost to the tree hugging tendency

GEORGE, it's been really bad today. No doubt the going played a part, but why run these beasts over distances thet their trainers know they wont handle?

Flat racing on turf is a bit iffy imo. Can be too hard and gee-gees hurt their legs or too soft then they get tired.
So we could have a/w only. But then there`s the kickback       
Sorry folks. Last one out turn off the light.

Not me wolf. (punting wise) When the going gets bad it's an advantage to me form wise. I'll never be a tree hugger, but what's the point of putting a horse in a race that you know will not finish?

Put any horse in a field with a jump fence  He  thats the horse may go  up to it  and   have a look or  rub is arse on it but jump it never  and that say hes a  natural jumper, they aint no such thing   he will jump the fence  if he feels the warmth of the whip so would you .Ban the Whip

Feck, apologies for putting your name on the thread title. I can speak for myself. It was just that you pointed it out to me a good few months ago. Again, apologies.

getting totally pissed off with the constant attacks on a sport I love and which is not cruel
wish these people would feck off and attack boxing or something instead
or even better just get a life and do something constructive for a change

Really balanced view there Zipper. So on your say-so we abandon Cheltenham etc. etc. Get real will you. Without the whip there is no jumping. Without jumping there are no horses after 4-5 years old. Without jump racing we will have to have AW racing through the winter so even more young horses bred by worse and worse stallions just to make up the numbers then off they go. That's it run them on the flat then off to the knackers yard. Why don't you survey them to see if they would rather jump fences half a dozen times a year or be  shot and sent abroad.

wolf, you make a valid point. I'm actually pro-whip which I have gave reasons for before. But when you see horses tailed off after a mile over the jumps, what's the point?

Zipper. Zip it. You would probably dont know the back end from the front of a horse. For your information horses love to jump. You put a jump in front of the majority of horses and they will pull your arms out wanting to jump it

Feck - apologies if you have answered these questions elsewhere, but do you eat meat or wear leather?

stewart
I just do not believe that trainers would deliberately put a horse into a race knowing it would not stay
my original comment was made because you seem to be making common cause with someone who makes no secret that he wants to ban jump racing.If thats your viewpoint then fair enough but I very strongly disagree with his viewpoint and have made that abundantly clear on other whip threads

Why do all the people who want to ban the sport or want to run it into the ground spend so much time on racing media (including this) knocking it? Go and hand leaflets out on the high street. Go and speak to your MP. When you are knocking NH racing, ask yourself too what happens to all the yearlings who do not make the grade? If you are going to ban NH racing in the name of horse-welfare, you have to ban any sport or other activity involving horses.

no one loves NH racing more than me in particular Cheltenham,but their is an argument for sure re trainers choices of races for their horses.

So ban NH racing because some trainers are idiots?

Well said carver.

Ban everything where anything practicing it might possibly come to harm imo.

Councillor - You put a jump in front of the majority of horses and they will pull your arms out wanting to jump it

Precisely - I have seen plently of horses who have 'had enough' refuse. I have seen plenty of horses loose in a field who have jumped.

The trainers do not ride the horses. The jockeys should pull them up when they get that tired. Most jockeys do for their own self preservation.

I feel sorry for the working man.
wages are being kept down.unions have been totallly emasculated and the price of everything is going up
now they want to ban all sport.smoking.drinking.swearing at football matches and just about everything else that makes life worth living after a weeks hard grafting at the coal face

Councillor  re zip dont know one end from the other  your arrogant idiot   ..zip  has  had horses in training ( very fat bills ).. zip was a racecoure bookie for   20 years 
And zip will bet any price you like  the  Jumps game will go .. are you on

I am not campaigning to have NH racing banned, NH racing are the ones doing that.

Zipper, I fully expect it to go within my lifetime - makes no sense, utterly illogical, but that counts for nothing.

What shoul NH Racing and the courses do in the name of self-preservation then Feck?

You 0nly have to look World Wide  .. how many other countries have National Hunt Racing  answers on a stamp

Which is more harmful to a horse? ...

A few 'bunny hops' over 8 flights of hurdles - or jumping well-sighted fences on level ground -

OR - BADMINTON and BURGHLEY Horse Trials...

Where the horses have to jump STONE WALLS - INTO Mini LAKES, and then CLAMBER up something akin to a ROCKFACE, in order to get out of that PIT ... be asked to negotiate, and jump CHICANE style Fence Layouts - that look designed to 'put a horse's back out'... along with other COMPLICATED and UNNATURAL OBSTACLES.

- And then there is HICKSTEAD - where they SLITHER down a BANK - that would have a 'ROAD CLOSED' sign on it - if it were tarmacked.


- And - The INDOOR  HORSE OF THE YEAR SHOW - where they are asked to jump in such a TIGHT ARENA - in which you would be lucky to 'swing a cat around'.

- [b]And - What about the EQUESTRIAN EVENTS at THE OLYMPICS?

I ain't heard anything about the HORSE WELFARE gang - the RSPCA - and other associated 'bleedin' hearts' - calling for them to be banned - or planning mass demonstrations in the Mall....

because those events are just the same as BADMINTON and BURGHLEY.

Come on onlooker, you should know better, logic is not welcome on this thread...

Um, how many countries have a history of NH racing like the UK? Don't worry, it won't be going anytime soon so I hope you are a youngster Carver.

About trainers running horses that fall away. Firstly when they enter them don't always know what is going to run. Secondly they don't always know what the going is likely to be. Thirdly, they have to start somewhere because horses can only get so fit at home.
Add to this there are currently lots of poor horses running in poor races but the levy needs them so that is what happens.
Also, anyone who watches racing will know a lot of the time trainers and jockeys don't know what is going to happen that is why they pick the wrong ones.
Anyone who thinks the whip or NH racing will be done away with should do the Maths. Horse racing is an industry. Unlike the motor industry you cannot import horse racing. Unless you buy the TV rights from other countres where racing is deemed to be acceptable and all of those employed in the racing industry would have to find work elsewhere. How crazy is that?

Hi Brigust1 - I hope you are right, everything you say is logical and i'll defend NH racing all day every day. I just truly think the lunatics have taken over the asylum, so anything could happen.

Of course racing should'nt be banned cos of trainers being idiots,just saying that they do run horses in races  that do not do the horses any good at all.The Grand National is a perfect example of that with owners wanting a runner in the race and to h-ll with the consequences.
Its that race thats started all this debacle we are having right now i believe.

Of course racing should'nt be banned cos of trainers being idiots,just saying that they do run horses in races  that do not do the horses any good at all.The Grand National is a perfect example of that with owners wanting a runner in the race and to h-ll with the consequences.
Its that race thats started all this debacle we are having right now i believe.

oops!!

Zippit. Your orginal post was about horses not wanting to jump not about whether NH will finish. I too am an owner and love horses and would never harm a fly. But having been around horses forever i believe I do talk from experience as a rider and owner. Bookmakers perse only watch them usually.

hate the thought of banning anything in racing but gun to my head i would say ban the GN
its a pale imitation of what it once was and is just a magnet for tree huggers/animal rights activists who will not be satisfied until horse racing is banned

maybe thats the answer,ban the national.Then those that are against Horse racing might be satisfied with that and leave us alone.
Would be a shame but personally i would survive without the National,and all the time the threat of losing racing altogether is looming,i would try almost anything to preserve it.

zipper talks about himself in the 3rd person I note. The fish thinks this is a sign of early onset dementia. Common amongst footballers but of course they spend a lot of time heading a quite heavy ball.

I wish Feck could have me hung drawn and spliced. Please let this thread go or I will have no choice but to phone betfair and get it pulled.

A lot of interesting view-points but the thread title is wrong.


Lots of good forumites given their view, but the thread title is wrong and my mistake.

I think we would all be better off if we accepted that at times racing horses is cruel, we know it is really, but then horses used for police work is cruel. Dogs sniffing for bombs is cruel, putting rabbits in a hutch is cruel. Everything to do with an animal has or could be seen to have an element of cruelty. Racehorses have a far better life than many other animals and I think racing should stand up for itself.

There was a good idea from another forumite that ive expanded on

Yep, the national isnt the race it was, Master Oats i think was the last Gold Cup winner to race in it and nowdays its just a limited handicap with compressed weights

Id tell Aintree to rip up a lot of the National course, limit it to around 25-30 runners and model it a bit on Cheltenhams cross country, make the Chair a Bank and make the course a bit more turning so they cant go that fast

Call it the "New National" and jazz it up, its one race a year and isnt imo, worth all the negative publicity, we all close our eyes and pray that our sport isnt ruined by events in this race every year now

The do good society we live with at the moment are responsible for the sad state of our country. Bring back Corporal punishment for toe rag kids, throw the inherently lazy off the White Cliffs of Dover, and those that interfere with our horse racing should be put in a padded room and the key thrown away.I am totally pissed off with the meddling ****s!!!!

I have followed racing, day in day out, for years ...

But I take Grand National day off - because the General Public pile into 'my world' - for JUST the day ...

So I leave them to it.

I have no interest in the race, whatsoever - because it does not have ANY bearing, FORM wise, on any OTHER races in the calendar.

However - I, and YOU - are now being compromised - in something like 8000 FLAT races per year - by the effect of these new rules - mostly because of some 'perceived' public perception  - based upon that over-rated inconsequential (in the greater scheme of things) gallop around Aintree.

I've long wondered whether it would be better (though not for the levy) if te race was not on TV. Aintree have done a terrific job making the track fairer. I believe their policy of incremental safety adjustments is right. If they banned the race or reinvented it as a 'safer' race, that would IMO be a tacit admission that NH racing is in a general way cruel in itself. Making that admission would be the thin end of the wedge and very dangerous IMO. The BHA are discovering what a mess that leads to, with their ill-judged whip rules. Additionally, once you make a bold statement (such as banning the race or reinventing it) you cannot go back - as the BHA now discover with the whip rule - if they 'up' the quota, the anti-brigade will accuse them of hypocrisy (if they thought it was correct to introduce a strict new whip rule on welfare grounds, how can they now think is acceptable to dillute the rule?).

stewart.
i understand ur discomforture but dont get this pulled
there are some excellent contributions on here and its still got 'legs' i reckon

Fair points.
Another way of looking at the race is to change the qualifying rules so that we have genuine long distance chasers,or at least proven good jumpers.
Not sure we can risk a repeat of this years race.

Reckon if we had say a limit of 25,all of which had proved themselves capable of jumping well and staying at least 3 and half m, we would still have an enjoyable race and with a much smaller risk of harm to those competing in it.

Reckon if we had say a limit of 25,all of which had proved themselves capable of jumping well and staying at least 3 and half m, we would still have an enjoyable race and with a much smaller risk of harm to those competing in it.

I was at fontwell today, the race the bailey grey won was awful to watch the placed ossed plugging up the straight on the last lap.

Apparently this whip review started well before this years National, you would have thought that Darley would have already told jockeys to be more careful. The reforms apparently are not on welfare grounds, if you hit a horse 6 times thats fine but 7 is cruel.

The race is restricted to 6yr old and upwards. I remember Cyfor Malta winning the John Hughes as a 5yr old (shorter trip). I know some quite sensible people who argue the race should be restricted to 7yr olds and upwards, limited to 30 runners and run on no faster than genuinely soft ground to reduce the speed they go at (which is the biggets problem IMO).

A cautious welcome to the BHA's new whip rules

27.09.11
We (RSPCA) have cautiously welcomed the British Horseracing Authority (BHA)’s new rules, published on Tuesday, 27 September, which are intended to limit whip-use and greatly increase penalties for jockeys who break the rules.

These measures were included in our recommendations, in our submission to the BHA’s review of the whip, which was announced in April 2011 following concerns about jockeys’ use of the whip during the Grand National.


RSPCA and all the rest of them jumped on board following the GN and used it to tighten the screw  on the BHA

Buddelia- I agree I thought one of the things they would do was to reduce the field to 30, in the long term that will cut the number of deaths if not the percentage, but a couple of things strike me about this year and 1989s race. 1 dead horse covered by taupalin, overhead shot of green screens. There was uproar in 89 when Julian Wilson said as they approached Beechers 2nd time "they are having to avoid a dead horse" that caused an outrage. As did Dark Ivy on the front of the Sunday Papers. These apart I dont remember massive reaction to the race even though McKelvey died after being the subject of a feature on The One Show. Where was the outrage for Eudipe, Smiths Band, Hear The Echo, etc?

why don't we take the fences out and make it 2 miles whilst we are at it?

come off it
its been a mecca for animal rights protests for years!!

Yes for protesters, but this year the media went for it just as in 86 and 89

Elise,its not what we want,but it may be that we have to face some decisions we dont like to safeguard the future of the sport.
Sometimes in life we have to do things we dont like,and like it or not we do now live in a society that does not tolerate harm to animals,and has an ever growing army of supporters with, it seems, a fair amount of clout.

so you think if they got rid of the national that would be the end?

get real man

Cannot understand how the national has lasted so long

Many jockeys blamed the 1993 farce on the antics of the protestors

Does not tolerate vruelty but is happy to eat them by the million tonne. The general public are not in any position to throw stones.

They are a small minority buddeliea,many of whose REAL agenda is the end of racing full stop. I think the BHA have gone far enough with the introduction of the air-cushioned stick and the 2009 rules which were themselves mainly about public perception. A lot of these people are fanatics who will not go away. They will just demand one concession after another until there is nothing left.

Spot on SS,go to Dale Farm and St Pauls and 1.01 these smelly layabouts are signed up to the ban racing cause.

elise

I tend to agree with those on here thinking the unthinkable about the nationalon this one although I share your concerns.

It is so much in the spotlight that if it didnt take place It may help if this annual media and protest circus was ended.

It nearly did go under of course when mrs topham passd away

But the point is they have the clout and the support.
I dont want to pander anymore than any of you,but i will if it means we still have the sport i love.

System crashed. next sentence supposed to read - The BHA should have spent longer (if anything) educating the general public.

Fair enough wolf, but if I get a 'complaint' I can assure you it will be pulled, owing to the main culprit being me.

I spoke to Feck a few months back and asked him why he didn't post so often during the jump season. He gave his side of the coin, I gave mine.

I just hope he doesn't bear a grudge as I only used his name as an example.

I would sacrifice the GN as well. This is the shop window for racing and put's out the wrong message in my opinion.

Under the current rules I do not see myself backing any horses until the new flat turf season begins. Might lay a few that need the persuader but that's about it. Also emailed the courses I used to hold a jump's membership at and explained that I will not be renewing due to the current rules.

Every year it just seems to attract more and more adverse publicity before and after the race

There is or should I say was no greater race in the calendar

Unforynately it has become a stick to beat the racing establishment by all manner of anti racing groups

I almost dread the annual jump racing bashing beanfeast now

stewart
not sure whether feck bears a grudge or not but I could make an educated guess
he is certainly like a dog with a bone on this issue.
once he sinks his teeth in he is unlikely to let go

wolf, just when I didn't need to be put under pressure.


I can't remeber us having a bad word between us.

I've also said that 99.99% of punters on here would gladly swap bank books with the man. (I'd be first in the the long standing line)


At the end of the day, nobody wants to see cruelty, but I saw a few beasts today being pulled up knackered.

people collapse after marathons but they recover and so do horses.
I don't like to see them knackered either but these are normally pretty fit and strong animals who will be fine the next day.

Feck - apologies if you have answered these questions elsewhere, but do you eat meat or wear leather?
no- but if you open the zip on his gimp mask he will give it a good suck.

If you don't like NH racing just get off this site.... I do not like boxing,motor sports ( surely more dangerous than horse racing, or does it not count if they are human ??) or rugby but I feel no desire to trouble the people who enjoy those sports. I also find golf and cricket tedious, should I invade their forums and tell them so ?? No need to poke my nose in to their sports or how they are run as I have not enough knowledge to do so !! Funny that people with no knowledge of our sport feel that they know best... utter clowns!!

said it before
I think i might go on the RSPCA forum and advoocate animal cruelty just to annoy everybody

I've been out, leave you lads/lassies alone for a couple of hours and look what happens? A bl00dy good debate, well done.

Hi Carver, I can't remember who first brought up getting rid of the GN and that is probably not far off the mark because that is the target of the Animal Rights people and the 'Once a Year Brigade'.

A better idea might be to slash the number of times the whip can be used in the GN and leave everything else alone. That way the said 'once in a year' brigade will think they have succeeeded in their mission and go away happy, if deceived. A cunning plan.

Nice people these animal right activists, animal being the predominant word.

Animal rights activists admit attack on grandmother
By COLIN FERNANDEZ, Daily Mail
Last updated at 20:52 03 July 2008

Three animal rights activists launched a terrifying attack on a family, including a 75-year-old grandmother, for having a pro-hunting sticker on their car, a court heard yesterday.
Heather Nicholson, Natasha Avery and Daniel Wadham jumped out of their car while stuck in a traffic jam to spit, screamed abuse and banged on the windows of their victims.

At one stage they hit a 75-year-old grandmother and tried to open the car doors to drag her 21-year-old grandson into the street. It was only the intervention of outraged members of the public that halted the attack.

Avery and Nicholson, both 38, are founding members of the controversial group Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty (SHAC) which has instigated the hate campaign against companies involved in animal testing.
Together with Wadham, 19, they pleaded guilty to one charge of affray at Kingston Crown Court today.
Judge Nicholas Jones remanded Nicholson in custody and warned Avery and Wadham they could face jail when they are sentenced on July 21. The judge said: 'Custodial sentences appear to be merited in relation to these matters.'

The family who cannot be named for legal reasons to protect their safety were travelling in Richmond, south-west London during the attack on November 9 last year.

On the back of their Audi driven by the grandmother's daughter, Mrs A, in her mid-40s was a small sticker that said: 'Two working dogs, working people, work in hunting.'
The driver suddenly heard a bang on her window and a woman screaming: 'F+++ing scum, f+++ing perverts,' while Wadham was banging on the side of the car. One woman shouted: 'Get that sticker off your window.'

The 21-year-old shouted to his mother: 'Just drive,' to shake off the extremists. The traffic lights turned green and the family drove off but the extremists got back in their car to pursue.
Hate-filled rant

When both cars had to stop at the next set of traffic lights on the A316 the attack began again. Mrs A tried to lock all her doors, but was unable to, and Nicholson launched another hate-filled rant screaming: 'F+++ing perverts, f+++ing scum.'

Mrs A was 'in tears and shaking' as Avery shouted similar obscene abuse at the passenger window. Mrs Nicholson then reached in the passenger door to pull Mrs A's son out of the car by his legs - but he kicked to stop her.

When the 75-year-old put her left arm out to help her grandson Nicholson hit her arm and Nicholson and Wadham spat in the 21-year-old's face and on the passenger door.
Other motorists came to the rescue of the family with one driver shouting to the extremists: 'If you want to start, start on me,' before police arrived to arrest all three.
Jill Evans, defending Nicholson, said her client had committed 'a most unattractive offence' but it was not premeditated.

Nicholson currently in jail on remand was last year jailed for breaching an ASBO placed in January last year which banned her from 500 metres of Huntingdon Life Sciences laboratories in Cambridgeshire or Suffolk, although this breach was later overturned by the court of appeal. Both she and Avery have a long string of previous convictions mostly relating to public order offences and animal rights protests.
The court heard Wadham has no previous convictions.
The court ordered that the trio's exact addresses are not to be published for fear of reprisals.

If the GN was abolished, it would just embolden the the bástárds who would think they could go the whole hog and get the lot closed down, imo.