Pity poor Kevin Darley. Fancy having to represent this bunch of retards

Not that much better.
What an odd choice of rides.
Spencer would presumably still ride Cape Blanco in the same way as the BHA funnily enough has no jurisdiction in the US.
I have no idea which ride of Dettori`s on Swain you are talking about but the horse retired in 1998.
Hala Bek is a bit more recent in that Robinson last rode it in The Derby in 2006,but if his use of the whip was at all controversial it was because the horse may have veered away from it not because he thrashed it.

ss
The 3 rides were all Group One races where the jockeys hit the horse on the stride. As they were Group One races they were unlikely to get a ban.  I used these examples as it shows that when big money and prestige are involved jockeys will use the whip as often as they can to get a result. The Swain example was in the Breeders Cup when Dettori hit Swain at least 20 times and lost the race. Robinson hit the horse on the stride and 'thrashed it'
I am sure you can think of other jockeys abusing horses in Group One races.

Assuming you ARE argosy taffy I still don`t see your point. The Swain ride was not only 13 years ago but also in the US. We may have to agree to disagree as to whether Robinson " thrashed " Hala Bek in The Derby,but if he did then you would surely have to think it cost him the race rather than winning it.

Swain Breeders Cup...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfOng-jaIh0

See how straight the horse runs for the whip too!

Jaqueline Quest 1000 Guineas..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHY5yCni6u0

Another running straight as an arrow for the whip..

too many accounts

Gerry I have no doubt that jockeys can ride bad races through using the whip when they shouldn`t. It depends on the horse. I am also sure that jockeys will lose races if they can`t use it when they should.

salmon - Do you believe the argument that the whip is an essential tool to help keep horses straight or do you accept that it is just as likely to cause a horse to deviate from a straight line? (as in the examples above)

The jockeys have to operate in the real world and realise that the game has changed. If the sport of racing is to go forward and enfranchise a new audience then they have to operate within agreed limits. Racing will increasingly be marginalised otherwise. As it now stands we have gone back to square one and further public outrage the next time a horse is thrashed in a big race (or percieived to be so).

It clearly depends on the temperament of the horse and the way it is used Gerry. I would have to say the whip is not used just on thoroughbreds. It has been a common accompaniment for horse-riding generally for centuries. I DO think there should be some control over its use in horse racing. I watch a lot of US racing and a few rides over there make me wince ( despite being brought up on 60s racing over here ).

'The jockeys have to operate in the real world and realise that the game has changed. If the sport of racing is to go forward and enfranchise a new audience then they have to operate within agreed limits. Racing will increasingly be marginalised otherwise. As it now stands we have gone back to square one and further public outrage the next time a horse is thrashed in a big race (or percieived to be so).'

Thinking like this dominates teh BHA and got racing landing into the mess it is in now. Actually, to call it 'thinking' is too kind -- it is just a rehash of a load of undigested media rubbish repeating the standard views of Rob and the boys.

agree with you yank
sounds like that came straight from a BHA handout
what a load of nauseating codswallop

salmon - it's ultimately the jockey who makes the call, taking into account the horse's temperament, on whether and how to use the whip. The problem is that in the heat of battle, even brilliant jockeys like Dettori get it badly wrong and end up either causing trouble for other horses and riders in the race or, as in the Swain race, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The other point I'd make in relation to the Breeders Cup race above is that Swain was a known quantity; battled hardened, tough and genuine. If a horse like that runs away from the whip (because imo the feckin' thing hurts), then it's little wonder that lesser / more fragile horses do the same when being hit.

It was probably a bad ride from a then still young ( ish ) jockey George. I have said I agree with the point that poor use of the whip can cost races. Having said that the whip back then and in the US into the bargain would bear little resemblance to that used in GB now.

Y/w
Your right. Lets just ban the damn thing and be done!

Let`s just ban racing and be done with it. Might as well.

will see if the RSPCA has a forum
think I might go on there and advocate animal cruelty just to get everybodys backs up.lol

Typical silly view posted by Gerry Gallbladder, he comes up with a couple of examples of horses who shyed away from a whip and hey presto all horses shy away from whips.It's that sad old view a couple of girls get attacked whilst wearing short skirts so lets ban short skirts.

Anybody who has ever ridden a horse down a country lane is fully aware of the value of a whip when a horse is spooked.Gerry is just one of those sad opportunist who want to ban the whip, ban NH racing and then ban flat racing.

As for the thread originators post,well  argosy is just rude ,giving the impression of a lack of understanding and an all round obnoxious ill informed plonker.

zebadei 25 Oct 11 13:09 
Typical silly view posted by Gerry Gallbladder, he comes up with a couple of examples of horses who shyed away from a whip and hey presto all horses shy away from whips.... Gerry is just one of those sad opportunist who want to ban the whip, ban NH racing and then ban flat racing.

Not a trace of irony either! If it's not black then it must be white in your world zebadei, and everyone who holds an alternative view on the whip must want to see racing banned! Bonkers doesn't even begin to cover it.

does he want the whip banned zeb has he actually said that? i get the impression he's just playing devils advocate, admittedly he's not giving much ground and yes he's twisting some arguments to suit his need but he's probably representing a fair few people of the ssame opinion

the answer is sadly going to come with hindsight, in a couple of years we will have either forgotten this stuff or the game we love will be a shadow of its former self, i guess we'll have to wait and see

elise - for the record (yet again) I want to see the whip banned except for 'correction'.

Yes Gerry has stated he wants to see the whip banned.
I think zebadei is right about some posters having an agenda to get racing banned altogether. I am prepared to give Gerry,renge/egner and one or two others the benefit of the doubt and assume they are just misguided.

Gerry youve already stated you don't bet on NH racing and you'd happily see it banned,you post like an animal rights fanatic whose been let lose amongst racing enthusiasts - you remind me of feck,feckcouldn't do anything but lose with his NH bets so now wants it banned - lets face it you boys are in the minority amongst racing enthusiasts,amongst the general public and only find a voice amongst the anti meat,anti pet, anti leather shoe brigade.

ok, i disagree

they are not just misguisded they are delusional
they actually believes the whip hurts a horse.lol
in spite of the fact that the RSPCA.WHWA.BHA.PJA and just about anybody who knows or has any genuine interest in the sport of horseracing takes the opposite view.
arguing with someone like that is just like pissing into the wind

Sadly salmon Spray,if the BHA who are meant to represent the sport had not made such a pigs ear of it,these looney anti whip ant racing cases would not have been given the time of day - how many Gerry/fecks do you meet at the race course,at a riding stable,etc, none.They are the exception who don't give a monkeys for Racing but just want to spout their animal rights fundamentalism.

Hmmmm.
I DO seem to have gone all mellow today         

Wolfhatthedoor i don't think many are delusional,i think they see it as a means to an end,ultimately they don't think that people should be allowed to own a dog - they are a minority group trying to impose their minority views.

if they fly in the face of all all avaialble expert and professional testimony and evidence from both sides of the argument they are very clearly delusional in my book

The way I see this whole debate is that for every argument put forward by the pro-whip brigade, us antis have a counter-argument and vece-versa, and nothing that either side says changes the view of the other

However, there is one argument put forward by the anti-whip lobby that no one has yet managed to knock down. That argument is that if you remove the whip altogether (except for correction), it would be virtually impossible for any jockey to get banned for trying too hard. And since it is the penalties that the jockeys appear to object to most, surely removing the thing which causes their troubles would be welcomed?

The other thing of course is that by removing the need to scrutinise whip use during races, stewards could then focus their entire efforts on the one thing that really will strangle the life out of 'racing', namely spotting and punishing non-triers. Ane before the pro-whip brigade launch into their usual "removing the whip is a license to cheat" mantra, don't forget that just because a jockey no longer has a whip it doesn't mean that they're no longer expected to ride to obtain the best possible placing.

zebadei 25 Oct 11 13:19 
Gerry youve already stated you don't bet on NH racing and you'd happily see it banned

Show me where and I'll donate a thousand quid to the charity of your choice. If you cannot find such a statement though zebadei, I expect you to donate a thousand to the charity of my choice (mine will be Greatwood btw).

Such a silly post Gerry,anybody who follows racing can see that its much harder to sport a non trier without any hose being given a reminder,anybody but those without an agenda realise that NH races over 3m plus on soft-heavy going would become a farce.

A proper stewards panel of horseman to judge pro riders on the ride they give is the right solution,a set of numbers like a naughty step is patently not appropriate.

Gerry do you eat bacon?

we could have no racing, that would result in no bans too

A proper stewards panel of horseman to judge pro riders on the ride they give is the right solution,a set of numbers like a naughty step is patently not appropriate.

Yeah - just what 'racing' needs, a whole bunch of people from the club (i.e. horsemen = retired jockeys) policing a whole bunch of people in the club.

Good luck with trying to find ANY example of where I've said I don't bet on NH and that I want to see it banned btw.

elise that is what I imagine the fecks/Gerrys want.

Gerry do you eat bacon?

elise 25 Oct 11 13:40 
we could have no racing, that would result in no bans too

And I'm the one who's being accused of wanting racing banned!

Gerry do you eat bacon?

Gerry do you eat bacon?, its not a difficult question to answer.

i don't want racing banned gerry nor do i want to discuss it anymore because it is pointless, i love horses, i own enough to know about them and have had enough runners under both codes to realise that no one size fits all

if you'd ever like to go racing with me should you want to discuss it with me and a trainer, jockey etc i'd be happy to oblige

zebadei - I'll answer your quite frankly irrelevant question re bacon once you have found ANY example of me saying that I do not bet on NH racing and that I want it banned.

lol wonder why gerry refuses to answer - its not rocket science!

look on the bright side folks.
these guys will probably leave us portman park
they always seem to give their mounts tender handling and still get the job done

Typical silly view posted by Gerry Gallbladder, he comes up with a couple of examples of horses who shyed away from a whip and hey presto all horses shy away from whips.

So how do they straighten them with it then? Do they point it in the direction they want them to run?

wolfhanger gerry/feck have all ready logged on to the virtual racing forum to propose banning virtual whips on a pixel by pixel basis.

feck do you eat bacon?

elise - I've pretty much reached the same conclusion in terms of the pointlessness of the debate on here; nothing we say or do on the BF forum will make any difference whatsoever.

Just as you doubtless live in hope that racing's authorities will conclude this shambles with something close to your ideal solution, I live in hope that they'll conclude it with mine. Only time will tell whether the solution they arrive at was the right one...

feck couldn't do anything but lose with his NH bets so now wants it banned

HITF do you know anything about my NH bets? If you think I couldn't turn a profit at the jumps you're seriously wrong.

Gerry if your view prevails,are you likely to be found celebrating with a bacon roll in your hand?

zebadei, you've already been down the bacon route. Are you going senile as well as having a prolonged breakdown?

zebadel
dont bracket me with that lot
thought we were singing from more or less the same hymnsheet here

gerry, i don't actually mind what the solution is so long as it is the correct thing for horses, the sport and the people who work within it

there is no easy answer, but there is a real likelihood that racing might not exist in the future as we currently know it and i find that really sad

sorry wolfhanger,ther should have been a comma after your nme,i was posting to you about the likely pursuits of the anti pair feck/gerry.

dont ya just love this forum

feck, as gerry seems so  coy all of a sudden,perhaps i could ask you a question.

Is it not true that you'd be happy to see the back of NH racing?

I think NH racing should be banned because putting safety before greed is beyond the racing set.

Indeed feck,you want to ban meat consumption,ban NH racing,ban the use of the whip.


Your views represent less than 1% of racing followers,and hopefully those who take part/run the sport shall allways bear that in mind when faced with yours and people like gerrys propoganda.

zebadei 25 Oct 11 14:15 

Your views represent less than 1% of racing followers,and hopefully those who take part/run the sport shall allways bear that in mind when faced with yours and people like gerrys propoganda.

Now produce the source data to verify this finding zebadei. C'mon, you don't want to be accused of spouting propaganda...

My main objection to the whip is it's an aid to cheating which is why the cheats want to hang on to it.

I think NH racing should be banned because putting safety before greed is beyond the racing set.

Now we get down to brass tacks on this debate
Seems like this boils down to the racing set versus the non racing set 
The actual whip issue would appear to be something of a red herring
Why do non racing people bother to post on here
The overwhelming majority with active accounts on here love horse racing under both codes

By racing set I'm talking about those who put on the sport. Punters don't decide to put NH racing on unsuitable ground.

Gerry my opinion that less than 1 in a hundred racing enthusiats are not wanting to ban meat consumption,ban NH Racing ,and ban the whip is based on experienced,but if you think that more than 1 in a hundred wants to ban all the previously mentioned,then you are clearly not a racing enthusiat and never have been.

Your reluctance to answer when asked wether you eat bacon,and the above clearly indicates your agenda.

Feck and Gerry I understand you both bet on NH racing. If you consider use of the whip to be so wrong are you not then BIG hyprocrites.

I am a racing enthusiast but have to say I would draw the line at eating horse meat

I'm a hypocrite because I think the whip's an aid to cheating?????

Arkle

Are you suggesting that YOU think NH racing is cruel then?

Why do you Gerry?

zebadei

You lost what little credibility you still had when you stated that I had said I wanted to ban NH racing and that I didn't bet on it (a statement that you have not be able to prove). You then moved into minus credibility territory when you accused me and others of spouting propaganda by, errrr, spouting your own propaganda! Quit while you're behind would be my advice old son.

^ What a bizarre post.

Q) Gerry Do you Eat bacon?

A) Gerry refuses to answer


Q)Gerry do you think NH racing is cruel?

A)Gerry refuses to answer


Q)Gerry do you think its fair to say that less than 1% of racing enthusiasts are wanting to ban meat consumption and,ban NH racing and ban the whip?

A) Gerry refuses to answer because its ...propoganda...?


I'm happy to put aside wether you posted a desire to ban nh racing,i'll make it easy for you;

Q) Gerry do you want to ban NH racing?

Q) Gerry do you eat bacon?

Christ - and you say that my post was bizarre. Anyway, thank you for confirming that you lied about me wanting to ban NH racing and lied also when you stated that I had said I didn't bet on it. I take it your cheque for £1000 is now in the post to Greatwood zebadei.

Does the current whip used in UK racing hurt the horses at all? Surely this is the key question. Some have said it doesnt hurt them.

I believe the RSPCA has said  it does not hurt and the world horse welfare body has said its not cruel.
Those boys would all like to ban racing too So that really should put the tree huggers minds at rest on that point
HTH

Seems Gerry still refuses to answer.


I think anybody reading this thread can see where Gerry Gallbladder is coming from and what his agenda is.

I think anybody reading this thread can see what ppking and others have stated in the past, especially under your other nomme de plume, that you are utterly barking mad.

zebadei
re your 13:09 post just who the hell are you to call anyone a plonker.
I know more about horses and thoroughbreds than you will ever know.
Have you ridden thoroughbreds?
If you want to meet just say where and when.

pistols at dawn

Have any of the "whip doesn't hurt" mob volunteered to be whipped across their quarters while sprinting on a running machine? So far Greg Wood has established that whipping the hoof of an at rest horse doesn't hurt it.

As somebody who pretty much shares your view about the current issue zebadei I must say I am a bit uneasy with your bacon question. you must know that Jews and Muslims don`t eat bacon. As it happens neither do I though I don`t fall into either of those categories. I don`t eat meat at all but I don`t equate that with being a tree-hugger or wanting to ban racing. I just don`t like it.

lol argosy yeah you know more about horses than the top jockeys,i'll meet you at the top of the tower of London ,givus a text when you get there,you bring your whip and i'll bring a feather duster ...but don't talk dirty to me on here again,big boy!

You insulted me. Take it back.

Feelings are obviously running high on this subject. Gerry and i have been sniping at each other for weeks on various threads but we have managed not to let it get out of hand. Can`t we all calm down just a bit.

it doesn't need to get out of hand, none of us are responsible for this mess

e
z has clearly never heard of Voltaire

Both sides have people on it that have an entrenched view and can't see beyond it.

I love horse racing, particularly NH but can't help but feel it's a guilty pleasure when I see a horse running around with a floppy leg after a fall or every time that the green screens are erected around a stricken horse. "They have a pampered life in a world where the horse is pretty much obsolete" I tell colleagues who say its cruel but because I enjoy the sport so much doesn't mean I'm deaf to debates, criticism or questions that question real issues that are valid.
I have no sympathy with the jockeys, their arguments are not compelling and are really just admissions that they are going to continue to break the rules and don't want to be punished for doing so.
I think the key is does the whip hurt the horse?
Even on this topic there is conflicting support as there are posts that say it doesn't and then not too long after there are posts citing missus? If it doesn't hurt then what is the missus?

In a nut shell, if the whip doesn't hurt the horse then why limit it's use? Let the jockeys hit the horse as many times as they want.
If the whip does hurt the horse then we have a limit to the number of times that you can hurt the horse and if you ignore that and exceed this limit prepare to be punished for it.

Indeed but lets say they brought in a law for fighting,five smacks prison sentance less than five a fine,so if jarvis cocker hits you 5 times he goes to prison,but if Mike Tyson hits you four he only gets a fine - Lets face it having a set number is just silly,its about how they use it,when they use it and why - you need a pro panel to judge a jockeys ride - not a set number.

z
you still owe me an apology.

ive spoken to the pja argosy, i imagine its you who is going to be offering up an apology for refering to pro sportsman as "retards",
if i was you i'd beg their forgiveness before you end up in court.

Lets face it having a set number is just silly

Not if it's zero. No need for any fines, bans, disqualifications etc.

Gerry I certainly dont believe that NH is cruel. My understanding is that you believe it is but in effect you promote it by going racing and/or betting on it.

yeah feck but as you want to ban NH racing,amogst other things,the number of times you suggest  a jockey can give a horse a reminder is somewhat meaningless .

What other things would they be zebadei?

I'm tired feck,but lets see i think it was pig farming,lamb rearing,beef farming,chickens etc- then it was suggestted you were anti pet keeping,leather shoes,also it was suggested that  you were not that keen on marriage,but i'm not sure thats a bannning issue,then there is the betfair interface,shooting ?, fishing?

and although it was probably in hunour somebody said strictly ballroom dancing.

Those "other things" were all stated by you zebadei.

What ones are not true feck?

z
see my post of 11.13 where I took back the term.
As you have not I intend to report you to Betfair for breach of the rules of the forum.

argosy i dont think you stating "i take it back" stands up in court,i imagine the fact you then called them half wits adding further insult could put you in court -

Which ones feck?

i eat bacon
i love nh racing
i think its cruel at times though,like when connections run a horse in a race like the grand national when it has no experience of the fences and running horses that are dodgy jumpers.Thats where a lot of the problems we have now began i believe.
The whip rules needed to be looked at because of that imo and so do the qualifying rules for certain races over fences.
Get those 2 right and we will be ok for the future of racing,get them wrong i fear for our sport.
Whether we like it or not we now live in a society in this country that will not tolerate what that society deems as cruelty to animals.Its really as simple as that for me.
Yes,it may be seen as giving in,but if say banning the whip or reducing its legal use,and stopping certain horses from being allowed to run in the GN safeguards the chance of me seeing the Cheltenham festival every year i for one will go along with it.