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22 Oct 11
16:36
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05 Jan 10
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Here we go again 
I'll get round to all your comments and questions once we've got round this thorny initial question:
The 'feather duster' of a whip that 'doesn't hurt horses' still manages to inflict tremendous damage on some of them under some rides?
How does it do that?
Off out now - back later to see the answers (I don't know, btw, hoping some of the experts on here can help me).
I'll get round to all your comments and questions once we've got round this thorny initial question:The 'feather duster' of a whip that 'doesn't hurt horses' still manages to inflict tremendous damage on some of them under some rides?
How does it do that?
Off out now - back later to see the answers (I don't know, btw, hoping some of the experts on here can help me).
What a pompous eejit you are. When you go to your study and think of replies, email David Muir with your concerns. Its all about "perception" after all...
Listening to Mark Johnston's views this morning, it's hard to believe he didn't object more to the new rules, and it sounded as if he wasn't happy that the sport is pandering even more to 'animal rights' groups.
He said in 20 years of training there have been no welfare issues with his horses where use of the whip has been concerned.
He said in 20 years of training there have been no welfare issues with his horses where use of the whip has been concerned.
Headmaster, Mark Johnston, Vet, was on this morning saying there is not a welfare issue with racehorses and whips.
By now every organisation standing has declared in public about the whip so what exactly are you on about?
By using immotive language like marked and cut you are just grossly exaggerating to try to prove your point.
A bit like afriend of mine who is for the return of the death penalty, something I am firmly against. His argument is 'what if someone raped and murdered your wife and daughter'. That is exactly what you are doing. Simply because, supposedly, someone marked a horse the whole industry should capitulate. Get real ffs.
As a headmaster you should know one paedophile does not implicate every teacher.
And to lay this at the door of the jockeys is naive in the extreme. If you listened to any of the interviews, including from the BHA, the jockeys were conned into this agreement. This lays directly at the door of the BHA.
They should remove all of the rules and start again.
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
b) Stewards to be trained in recognise abuse of the whip.
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including oss of licence.
How difficult is that?
By now every organisation standing has declared in public about the whip so what exactly are you on about?
By using immotive language like marked and cut you are just grossly exaggerating to try to prove your point.
A bit like afriend of mine who is for the return of the death penalty, something I am firmly against. His argument is 'what if someone raped and murdered your wife and daughter'. That is exactly what you are doing. Simply because, supposedly, someone marked a horse the whole industry should capitulate. Get real ffs.
As a headmaster you should know one paedophile does not implicate every teacher.
And to lay this at the door of the jockeys is naive in the extreme. If you listened to any of the interviews, including from the BHA, the jockeys were conned into this agreement. This lays directly at the door of the BHA.
They should remove all of the rules and start again.
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
b) Stewards to be trained in recognise abuse of the whip.
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including oss of licence.
How difficult is that?
'Bravehearts' problem would appear to be he as a foot in each camp .
Not shy in voicing his opinion normally but appears to have lost his voice over this .
Not shy in voicing his opinion normally but appears to have lost his voice over this .
That Roly Poly guy is the chairman of "World Horse Welfare" , is he telling me that the other 250 countries in the world treat horses better than we do , obviously that would be total nonsense , so why doesn't he just f**k off.
I think you will find no other country will have him.
A bit like the RSPCA. Paid Blair a million to ban fox hunting. Not able to win a fight standing on there own. I remember I called them out once because 2 large dogs were locked in a hallway in a house nearby for a couple of days. They were yelping and generally noisy. The RSPCA chap turned up but said he couldn't do anything because he could see, through letter box, they had water. He could also see through the letter box that there was sh@t all over the place. Completely useless.
When the owner returned I asked if they had heard anything from the RSPCA, he hadn't. So I told him if he does that again I'll break his door down and let them out into his garden. He didn't do it again.
A bit like the RSPCA. Paid Blair a million to ban fox hunting. Not able to win a fight standing on there own. I remember I called them out once because 2 large dogs were locked in a hallway in a house nearby for a couple of days. They were yelping and generally noisy. The RSPCA chap turned up but said he couldn't do anything because he could see, through letter box, they had water. He could also see through the letter box that there was sh@t all over the place. Completely useless.
When the owner returned I asked if they had heard anything from the RSPCA, he hadn't. So I told him if he does that again I'll break his door down and let them out into his garden. He didn't do it again.
R*uby W*lsh knew before he went how many times he could whip the horse & as he broke those rules he should be banned.
I don't recall too many coming out in support of the likes of Nat*lia Gem*lova when she got banned, then as soon as high profile jocks like
W*lsh & H*ghes throw their toys out of the pram there's talk of strikes. Clearly the ban affects the likes of Gem*lova who is potless a lot more.
The high profile jocks represented at the BHA managed to get their percentage of prize money reinstated because they don't want to missing out on the tens of thousands in group 1 wins yet a ban would have a bigger affect on the likes of Gemilova as they are only receiving a percentage of a small prize.
The rules stink but the attitude of these top jocks looking after their own self interest stinks even more imo
I don't recall too many coming out in support of the likes of Nat*lia Gem*lova when she got banned, then as soon as high profile jocks like
W*lsh & H*ghes throw their toys out of the pram there's talk of strikes. Clearly the ban affects the likes of Gem*lova who is potless a lot more.
The high profile jocks represented at the BHA managed to get their percentage of prize money reinstated because they don't want to missing out on the tens of thousands in group 1 wins yet a ban would have a bigger affect on the likes of Gemilova as they are only receiving a percentage of a small prize.
The rules stink but the attitude of these top jocks looking after their own self interest stinks even more imo
NG got plenty of support on here.
She gave a great interview on ATR as well..
She gave a great interview on ATR as well..
Saw that guiness but shook my head in disbelief when I saw the profile of the jocks at the BHA. Clearly those at the lower end were not represented & their interests not addressed imo. Clearly none of the top jocks wants to lose the big bucks in prize share but for the
lesser jocks what's 7% of f*ck all
The worst cases of whip abuse I saw this year were by the winner in the National & on Rewilding at Royal Ascot, where the prize money was massive
lesser jocks what's 7% of f*ck all
The worst cases of whip abuse I saw this year were by the winner in the National & on Rewilding at Royal Ascot, where the prize money was massive
Can't argue with that. As i can't argue with the Jocks continually shooting themselves in the arris..
TheHonestScouser has a point. McCoy and Dettori were not obvious representatives of the " average " jockey and tbh both of them have allowed themselves to be manipulated into looking foolish in the last couple of weeks.
Scouser, it is the high profile jock's who carry the clout. Whether you or I like it or not if only jockeys of the stature of Nat object no-one would listen. You are misguided my friend.
Also though I agree about the GN winner I bet no-one came on here directly after the Frankie Dettori ride criticising his use of the whip. Anyone want to bring up a thread where, directly after the race, they raised this issue I would be pleased to see it.
So out of thousands of races you can pick up 2 possible this year, 1 I agree with? How can you call that abuse?
Also though I agree about the GN winner I bet no-one came on here directly after the Frankie Dettori ride criticising his use of the whip. Anyone want to bring up a thread where, directly after the race, they raised this issue I would be pleased to see it.
So out of thousands of races you can pick up 2 possible this year, 1 I agree with? How can you call that abuse?
brigust take the blinkers off. Nothing wrong with a selection, then everyone gets heard. The lesser jocks make a small living from riding fees, take 5 or 10 days from them & there's every chance they cannot pay their bills.
I picked them 2 as both horses were hit over 20 times, triple the revised recommendation. If I hadn't come up with examples you'f we
whingeing 'show me examples', grrrr!!!!
I picked them 2 as both horses were hit over 20 times, triple the revised recommendation. If I hadn't come up with examples you'f we
whingeing 'show me examples', grrrr!!!!
Gallbladder is on one end of the extreme while Brigust holds the high ground on other end of the extreme, compromise is out of the question?.
Brigust, speaking of Frankies ride on rewilding while Frankie might have hit his horse twice as much as Moore but when you look back on the race you can barely even see Frankie's whip because he's merely flicking it, compared to Moore where you can quite clearly see his whip raised borderline shoulder height, to me Moore was actually inflicting more pain on his horse than Frankie even though the strokes were 2-1 ratio in Frankies favour, both jockeys deserved their bans but they didn't really care because there was no incentive not to break the whip rules now that there is he jockeys are spitting fury because they're getting hit in the pocket.
As I've said before I didn't think the original rules before the recent changes were all that bad if policed properly but the punishments for an offence were ripe for abuse.
People talk about Fallon not been a whip jockey and only goes for it late in the race?, c'mon!!! when he does resort to it he uses his whip nearly always above shoulder and regulary down the neck in the forehand position, he has spawned many copycats of his whip style, why else do you think Turner amd Milczarek can cut it with the big boys?, yeh thats right they use their whip with a Fallon over shoulder like ferocity and you can throw in Catlin into that mix as well, which in effect is cheating the other riders who use their whips correctly.
To me the main problem was the BHA never cracked down on the ugly side of whip use but preferred to count how many instead.
Maguire's use of it in the National was both frequent and ugly, if you removed the ugly side of his whip use nobody would have been too bothered about it at all?.
I gave a few links to a certain jockey riding in Ireland which I presume nobody bothered their backsides to look at?, he like many other riders in Ireland use the whip as a first resort and a last resort once they meet the business end of a race, jockeys are never held accountable over there as such whip abuse flourishes, and I'm no prude I don't curl up on my couch and hide my eyes when I see a horse getting hit by the whip but some jump racing finishes in Ireland have often made me squirm, its nothing short of butchery, and if the authorities in Ireland couldn't be assed to crack down on this butchery then all young jockeys coming into Irish racing will know no different, whip them hard, whip them good and whip them as many times as you like.
From a personal point of view my compromise would for the BHA to allow jockeys to hit their horses 10 times during a race both flat and national hunt, 10 hits should be more than enough for most races?, and crack down heavier on over shoulder and down the neck in the forehand position, seems a bit odd that the offence for this is lighter than for say a jockey using one more strike with the whip in the correct position?.
I can't see the argument where very tired jump horses should be hit more?, nothing uglier than tired horses getting flogged home on very testing ground.
Brigust, speaking of Frankies ride on rewilding while Frankie might have hit his horse twice as much as Moore but when you look back on the race you can barely even see Frankie's whip because he's merely flicking it, compared to Moore where you can quite clearly see his whip raised borderline shoulder height, to me Moore was actually inflicting more pain on his horse than Frankie even though the strokes were 2-1 ratio in Frankies favour, both jockeys deserved their bans but they didn't really care because there was no incentive not to break the whip rules now that there is he jockeys are spitting fury because they're getting hit in the pocket.
As I've said before I didn't think the original rules before the recent changes were all that bad if policed properly but the punishments for an offence were ripe for abuse.
People talk about Fallon not been a whip jockey and only goes for it late in the race?, c'mon!!! when he does resort to it he uses his whip nearly always above shoulder and regulary down the neck in the forehand position, he has spawned many copycats of his whip style, why else do you think Turner amd Milczarek can cut it with the big boys?, yeh thats right they use their whip with a Fallon over shoulder like ferocity and you can throw in Catlin into that mix as well, which in effect is cheating the other riders who use their whips correctly.
To me the main problem was the BHA never cracked down on the ugly side of whip use but preferred to count how many instead.
Maguire's use of it in the National was both frequent and ugly, if you removed the ugly side of his whip use nobody would have been too bothered about it at all?.
I gave a few links to a certain jockey riding in Ireland which I presume nobody bothered their backsides to look at?, he like many other riders in Ireland use the whip as a first resort and a last resort once they meet the business end of a race, jockeys are never held accountable over there as such whip abuse flourishes, and I'm no prude I don't curl up on my couch and hide my eyes when I see a horse getting hit by the whip but some jump racing finishes in Ireland have often made me squirm, its nothing short of butchery, and if the authorities in Ireland couldn't be assed to crack down on this butchery then all young jockeys coming into Irish racing will know no different, whip them hard, whip them good and whip them as many times as you like.
From a personal point of view my compromise would for the BHA to allow jockeys to hit their horses 10 times during a race both flat and national hunt, 10 hits should be more than enough for most races?, and crack down heavier on over shoulder and down the neck in the forehand position, seems a bit odd that the offence for this is lighter than for say a jockey using one more strike with the whip in the correct position?.
I can't see the argument where very tired jump horses should be hit more?, nothing uglier than tired horses getting flogged home on very testing ground.
Grr to you too. Everyone in the racing world has used these examples, even me. But the ride given by Maguire was completely different from the ride given by Dettori. And Maguire's ride is probably the main reason we are in this position. So to link them together, in my opinion, is wrong.
Similarly if you think Natalia Gemelova has the same clout as either Ruby Walsh or Richard Hughes I think you should check the newsprint.
I'm not happy about what happened to Nat and brought it up on another thread, I'm just being realistic not blinkered. I know enough younger jockeys to know they cannot afford this and I have made my point on this issue completely clear throughout.
Similarly if you think Natalia Gemelova has the same clout as either Ruby Walsh or Richard Hughes I think you should check the newsprint.
I'm not happy about what happened to Nat and brought it up on another thread, I'm just being realistic not blinkered. I know enough younger jockeys to know they cannot afford this and I have made my point on this issue completely clear throughout.
I'm all for compromise Silver.
I suggest they should remove all of the rules and start again.
Then the rules should as follows:
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
b) Stewards to be trained intensively to recognise any abuse of the whip.
(Existing rules plus hitting when not in contention)
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including retrainind and potentially loss of licence.
How difficult is that?
What would GG, the Animal Activist, suggest.
I suggest they should remove all of the rules and start again.
Then the rules should as follows:
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
b) Stewards to be trained intensively to recognise any abuse of the whip.
(Existing rules plus hitting when not in contention)
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including retrainind and potentially loss of licence.
How difficult is that?
What would GG, the Animal Activist, suggest.
Fair enough brigust I agree with most of what you say but having no limit at all is a bit extreme don't you think, so a jockey could hit a horse 30 times during a race?.
brigust
I don't believe that you don't know what I'd suggest!
1. Ban the whip altogether (except for correction). This would negate the need for both 'b' and 'c' in your suggested solution.
Beat that for simplicity.
Now please don't bother me with this again unless you can either make your existing argument more cogent or unless you are able to construct a completely new argument.
I don't believe that you don't know what I'd suggest!
1. Ban the whip altogether (except for correction). This would negate the need for both 'b' and 'c' in your suggested solution.
Beat that for simplicity.
Now please don't bother me with this again unless you can either make your existing argument more cogent or unless you are able to construct a completely new argument.
brigust
Oh and btw, it wasn't many posts ago that you were imploring people to ignore people like me so that we might go away ("Try not to give them the time of day. They may go away."). Yet an hour or two later you want me to share my views (again). I trust you are more disciplined when it comes to your, ahem, successful punting?!
Oh and btw, it wasn't many posts ago that you were imploring people to ignore people like me so that we might go away ("Try not to give them the time of day. They may go away."). Yet an hour or two later you want me to share my views (again). I trust you are more disciplined when it comes to your, ahem, successful punting?!
Walsh and his da think they run Irish racing, the Brits should tell him to **** off and obey the rules or stay away.
Like any professional sportsman you must obey the rules of the governing body of the sport or you will be suspended. Either that or we have anarchy.
The rules have changed adapt or **** off and bore the arse off TV viewers with your (Irish blarney I know everything).
Somebody else will take your place who can work to the rules.
Like any professional sportsman you must obey the rules of the governing body of the sport or you will be suspended. Either that or we have anarchy.
The rules have changed adapt or **** off and bore the arse off TV viewers with your (Irish blarney I know everything).
Somebody else will take your place who can work to the rules.
Jockeys the root of the problem here from start to fnish.
My sentiments too Malay. If things are so bad here, why are there so many non-British jockeys plying their trade here? Why too are their so few British jockeys plying their trade elsewhere?
brigust1
I'm all for compromise Silver.
I suggest they should remove all of the rules and start again.
Then the rules should as follows:
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
The jockeys asked for a number though, brigust
b) Stewards to be trained intensively to recognise any abuse of the whip.
(Existing rules plus hitting when not in contention)
They do already. This is the first time recognising abuse has been raised as an issue. It isn't, as 900 breaches last year show.
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including retrainind and potentially loss of licence.
Very stringent penalties have been proposed and are an issue with jockeys. Retraining is already part of the programme. Remember McCoy being sent back to school? Loss of licence also in the mix. Apart from the lack of a number - which the PJA asked for! - you seem to be largely proposing the current whip rules, Brigust!?!?!
I'm all for compromise Silver.
I suggest they should remove all of the rules and start again.
Then the rules should as follows:
a) No limit to whip use by number. (Removing any excuse for a jockey not trying sufficiently and because no 2 jockeys hit either in the same place or with the same intensity).
The jockeys asked for a number though, brigust
b) Stewards to be trained intensively to recognise any abuse of the whip.
(Existing rules plus hitting when not in contention)
They do already. This is the first time recognising abuse has been raised as an issue. It isn't, as 900 breaches last year show.
c) Very stringent penalties for transgressors including retrainind and potentially loss of licence.
Very stringent penalties have been proposed and are an issue with jockeys. Retraining is already part of the programme. Remember McCoy being sent back to school? Loss of licence also in the mix. Apart from the lack of a number - which the PJA asked for! - you seem to be largely proposing the current whip rules, Brigust!?!?!
Malay, so if the FA decided that they want to clean the game up and stop fouls which warrant yellow / red cards, they tell the players that for each yellow card a player is given, he will be fined £20,000, and for each red card, £40,000 - plus a five game ban without pay, you think the players would be happy to accept that?
Headmaster, actually they might accept the new rules - especially if Kevin Darley is representing them.
However, after a couple of games it would become abundantly clear what an absolute shambles the new rules are with players scared to tackle for the ball for fear of incurring the harsh financial penalties.
However, after a couple of games it would become abundantly clear what an absolute shambles the new rules are with players scared to tackle for the ball for fear of incurring the harsh financial penalties.
No one is saying things are bad in British racing it is just the stupid new whip rules that are wrecking things.There are on here some disgruntled punters who hate jockeys,Silvergreaser TheHonestScouser,but i don`t think Gerry Gallbladder falls into that category.He actually has a point and i now think you go for unlimited use of the whip or no whip at all,the counting of strokes has proved to be a nonsense and unworkable,having jockeys constantly banned another nonsense,so you either stop the persecution of jockeys and leave it to them,my preferred solution, or you ban the thing altogether for say a month and see what happens.
Malay if the good jockeys leave because of these rules they will be followed by the good owners, the good trainers AND the good horses - the good prize money has left already. This is the big danger for the sport and many on here can see that, some cant and others dont care as they are anti-racing anyway. By the way I presume you are familiar with the EU rules regarding the right to work in member states.
Wildman put it this way I don't have much sympathy for their crusade, as I've said previously on here jockeys don't even give the punter a second thought, we're afterall nothing but a nuisance to be barely tolerated.
I would give them a smidgen of sympathy when they fall foul of the non triers rule, its they especially the journeymen jockeys who will take all the flac and punishments dished out while the whole time protecting the one who told him not try in the first place the trainer often in collusion with the gambling owner, I better or else.....
I would give them a smidgen of sympathy when they fall foul of the non triers rule, its they especially the journeymen jockeys who will take all the flac and punishments dished out while the whole time protecting the one who told him not try in the first place the trainer often in collusion with the gambling owner, I better or else.....
You only have to leave a few numpties alone and they start playing up. Just goes to show.
G Gall. I was responding to Silver and his request/suggestion about the possibilty of a compromise. Far be it from me to bury my head in the sand.
And your sugestion you will be pleased to know will not be implimented any time soon.
Headmaster. I would discuss with you but you talk such utter b*ll*cks I simply wouldn't normally waste my time but the clues are there in a), b) and c) if you care to look. They are not designed to be stand alone.
Malay. Oh, I can't be bothered.
G Gall. I was responding to Silver and his request/suggestion about the possibilty of a compromise. Far be it from me to bury my head in the sand.
And your sugestion you will be pleased to know will not be implimented any time soon.
Headmaster. I would discuss with you but you talk such utter b*ll*cks I simply wouldn't normally waste my time but the clues are there in a), b) and c) if you care to look. They are not designed to be stand alone.
Malay. Oh, I can't be bothered.
Brigust, I might disagree with you but I don't talk b@ll@cks. The people who talk b@ll@cks are the ones who think punting comes into this. What you on about? Does your P&L really dictate whether or not your opinion can be verified? I burped up 3K this morning in Premium Charge. Does that mean my thoughts should hold more water than someone who paid, 2K, 1K...or did their conkers? I hope not.
It never ceases to amaze me how certain people on one particular side of the debate can't seem to make it through without mud slinging. Very telling imo.
It never ceases to amaze me how certain people on one particular side of the debate can't seem to make it through without mud slinging. Very telling imo.
Considering your 'backwoodsman' comment on another thread that's a bit rich, Head.
a) The reason I put 'no limit' is because the stewards would be better employed watching the race riding not counting the strokes. How many people now, instead of watching the finish are counting the strokes. Ridiculous considering before last week no-one did.
b)The reason I said the stewards should be trained is because when any breaches occur the strength of the stewards abilities will be called into question by the perpertrators and possibly their lawyers.
c) The reason I stated penalties should fit the crime is because firstly that is exactly what the existing rules do not do. And secondly the perpertrators must be made fully aware that abuse is not acceptable.
Is that clear enough for you.
a) The reason I put 'no limit' is because the stewards would be better employed watching the race riding not counting the strokes. How many people now, instead of watching the finish are counting the strokes. Ridiculous considering before last week no-one did.
b)The reason I said the stewards should be trained is because when any breaches occur the strength of the stewards abilities will be called into question by the perpertrators and possibly their lawyers.
c) The reason I stated penalties should fit the crime is because firstly that is exactly what the existing rules do not do. And secondly the perpertrators must be made fully aware that abuse is not acceptable.
Is that clear enough for you.
Brigust1. Spoken like a very reasonalbe gentleman. No trace of the backwoodman's about you.
Are you not able to get it into your head that the jockeys asked for a number, brigust?
Do you not even know that stewards are trained already...in a number of things...including whip abuse?
Blimey. It really is back-to-school time, isn't it?
I'm out.
Do you not even know that stewards are trained already...in a number of things...including whip abuse?
Blimey. It really is back-to-school time, isn't it?
I'm out.
I'm out
tf for that.
reading ur drivel is doing my head in bigstyle
as for that shyt about premium charges..
post evidence on here and we might believe you
in the meanwhile your coming across as another tree hugging non punting hater of the noble sport
tf for that.
reading ur drivel is doing my head in bigstyle
as for that shyt about premium charges..
post evidence on here and we might believe you
in the meanwhile your coming across as another tree hugging non punting hater of the noble sport
watch out wolfy, Headmaster will block you. Ahhhooooo! Werewolves of London.
We need to look at whip rules again - Darley
BY LEWIS PORTEOUS racingpost.com
KEVIN DARLEY, chief executive of the Professional Jockeys' Association, on Sunday expressed his concerns over the amended whip rules introduced on Friday and called for the BHA to make a further review of the permitted number of times a jockey can use his whip during a race - currently seven on the Flat and eight over jumps.
A further four jockeys, including Ruby Walsh at Aintree, were handed whip bans on Saturday, leading Darley to harden his stance against the new rules, which he believes are "not working".
"Jockeys are still getting banned left, right and centre. I just don't think that these rules are working," the former jockey told At The Races.
Darley added: "These guys [jockeys] are professional sportsmen - the best in the world - but they're still going one or two over [the limit] and we need to come up with a suitable number.
"The punishments are taking the competitiveness away from the jockeys. They're not acting as a deterrent and we need to look at the rule again."
Darley also thinks that unless further amendments are made there will be more breaches to whip rules than everbefore, impacting negatively on the way the sport is perceived.
Darley said: "We've got to look at what is happening now. Jockeys are going one or two strikes over and breaches are going to double the way things are going."
Darley is willing the industry to stick together and will look to the Horsemen's Group to support the PJA in future discussions.
"The impact is filtering through to owners and trainers now and I hope we're going to have more support from the Horsemen's Group," he said.
"We've got to keep the discussions going and continue to monitor the situation. Changesneed to be made as we go along. We need to stick together as an industry."
BY LEWIS PORTEOUS racingpost.com
KEVIN DARLEY, chief executive of the Professional Jockeys' Association, on Sunday expressed his concerns over the amended whip rules introduced on Friday and called for the BHA to make a further review of the permitted number of times a jockey can use his whip during a race - currently seven on the Flat and eight over jumps.
A further four jockeys, including Ruby Walsh at Aintree, were handed whip bans on Saturday, leading Darley to harden his stance against the new rules, which he believes are "not working".
"Jockeys are still getting banned left, right and centre. I just don't think that these rules are working," the former jockey told At The Races.
Darley added: "These guys [jockeys] are professional sportsmen - the best in the world - but they're still going one or two over [the limit] and we need to come up with a suitable number.
"The punishments are taking the competitiveness away from the jockeys. They're not acting as a deterrent and we need to look at the rule again."
Darley also thinks that unless further amendments are made there will be more breaches to whip rules than everbefore, impacting negatively on the way the sport is perceived.
Darley said: "We've got to look at what is happening now. Jockeys are going one or two strikes over and breaches are going to double the way things are going."
Darley is willing the industry to stick together and will look to the Horsemen's Group to support the PJA in future discussions.
"The impact is filtering through to owners and trainers now and I hope we're going to have more support from the Horsemen's Group," he said.
"We've got to keep the discussions going and continue to monitor the situation. Changesneed to be made as we go along. We need to stick together as an industry."
Ruby Walsh going to be interviewd in a few mins on ATR
perfectly put once again, sadly the bha dont want to listen
Ruby "Rules or Rules". "It's not right the rule is wrong".. "I'm not riding in tuesday, or friday and now every ride i take i will have to work it out what is on ten days in advance(the time the ban starts)". "I dont think i will be able to ride in the UK midweek". "I think there will be strike"
Gerry Gallbladder Joined: 22 Jun 04
Replies: 2830 23 Oct 11 15:24
My sentiments too Malay. If things are so bad here, why are there so many non-British jockeys plying their trade here? Why too are their so few British jockeys plying their trade elsewhere?
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
Replies: 2830 23 Oct 11 15:24
My sentiments too Malay. If things are so bad here, why are there so many non-British jockeys plying their trade here? Why too are their so few British jockeys plying their trade elsewhere?
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
He basically said He wont be riding in the UK much this season. . So paul may look for another i fear
If rules change, they change and you comply, didnt see any goalkeepers going on strike when they werent allowed tp pick the ball up from pass backs, although it made their job more difficult, and new skils were required.
A Clever horseamn should see it as an opportunoty to pick up rides from people who can't comply.
A Clever horseamn should see it as an opportunoty to pick up rides from people who can't comply.
Plenty of Goalkeepers picked the ball up in error and the start but they didnt get banned for 5 matches so cant see your point tbh
Walsh is still essentially Irish-based. No point in him riding in England except in the biggest races if he is going to miss big rides in The Republic.
I'm sure Rupert will be fine in Ireland.
Probably the first of many to stay home..
Racing in the UK is fahooked..
Probably the first of many to stay home..
Racing in the UK is fahooked..
Plenty of Goalkeepers picked the ball up in error and the start but they didnt get banned for 5 matches so cant see your point tbh
name them ! because if i was their manager they'd be on the transfer list and wouldnt need to worry about a ban
name them ! because if i was their manager they'd be on the transfer list and wouldnt need to worry about a ban
yeah they just kicked the ball instead of picking it up
must take loads of skill
must take loads of skill
English jocks will be looking to ride in the US and Hong Kong imo.
yeah they just kicked the ball instead of picking it up
must take loads of skill
wolf your obviously not a football man or seen many goalies in training
must take loads of skill
wolf your obviously not a football man or seen many goalies in training
MALAY Joined: 02 Aug 08
Replies: 1213 23 Oct 11 16:54
Plenty of Goalkeepers picked the ball up in error and the start but they didnt get banned for 5 matches so cant see your point tbh
name them ! because if i was their manager they'd be on the transfer list and wouldnt need to worry about a ban
If you were the manager This debate has gone into fantasy world and downhill like a lead ballon Im out of here.
Replies: 1213 23 Oct 11 16:54
Plenty of Goalkeepers picked the ball up in error and the start but they didnt get banned for 5 matches so cant see your point tbh
name them ! because if i was their manager they'd be on the transfer list and wouldnt need to worry about a ban
If you were the manager
This debate has gone into fantasy world and downhill like a lead ballon Im out of here.
Barry Geraghty and Paul Carberry(+ G.Elliots jockeys) reconsidering there arrangements as well I'm told
cos you you know you are talking **** and no goalies picked the ball up, because they were well aware the rules had changed and had to adapt,
paul nicholls will be sending a lot of his to ireland to contest the better races there not only is the prizemoney far better he wii also be able to use his top jock
paul nicholls will be sending a lot of his to ireland to contest the better races there not only is the prizemoney far better he wii also be able to use his top jock
Na Im not you should watch a bit of football as an Arsenal fan I can give you an example Fabianski against Porto in the Champions League. Now back to fantasy world Mr Manager
Malay I reckon you are more comfortable with the football threads if you get me!
jmc27 the pass back rule had been changed before fabianski played his first game at school football
arkl you could be correct, my opinion is based only on compliance with changes in rules.
I have no opinion on whip use rules changes for better or worse, but the governing body make them not the participants, that is surely the same in every sport.
I have no opinion on whip use rules changes for better or worse, but the governing body make them not the participants, that is surely the same in every sport.
jmc27
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
Ergo he's not British then. He's an Italian who happens to ride in Britain - why is that so difficult to understand? Ryan Moore would probably be considered the best British jockey currently on 'the world stage' as you put it.
What I find so incredible is that the jockeys seem to think that the racing is about them! I can say with total honesty, that I have never once attended a race meeting to see a particular jockey in action (not even when Lester was riding). I have, on the other hand, attended race meetings just to see a particular horse run.
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
Ergo he's not British then. He's an Italian who happens to ride in Britain - why is that so difficult to understand? Ryan Moore would probably be considered the best British jockey currently on 'the world stage' as you put it.
What I find so incredible is that the jockeys seem to think that the racing is about them! I can say with total honesty, that I have never once attended a race meeting to see a particular jockey in action (not even when Lester was riding). I have, on the other hand, attended race meetings just to see a particular horse run.
MALAY Joined: 02 Aug 08
Replies: 1216 23 Oct 11 17:12
jmc27 the pass back rule had been changed before fabianski played his first game at school football
You want me to go back to 92 and name cases ffs are you been serious lol, give it up!
Replies: 1216 23 Oct 11 17:12
jmc27 the pass back rule had been changed before fabianski played his first game at school football
You want me to go back to 92 and name cases ffs are you been serious lol, give it up!
Gerry Gallbladder Joined: 22 Jun 04
Replies: 2831 23 Oct 11 17:19
jmc27
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
Ergo he's not British then. He's an Italian who happens to ride in Britain - why is that so difficult to understand?
Gerry engage the brain, its called sarcasm! The intelligence level on this forum is gone south rapidly
Replies: 2831 23 Oct 11 17:19
jmc27
RE British Jockeys I think the answer is pretty obvious infairness. The best British jockey on the world stage is an Italian
Ergo he's not British then. He's an Italian who happens to ride in Britain - why is that so difficult to understand?
Gerry engage the brain, its called sarcasm! The intelligence level on this forum is gone south rapidly
i assumed thats what you were talking about, when a new rule was introduced, the other guy you mentioned from arsenal didnt know the original rules
And what about the ten days before Cheltenham on the tuesday do you really think Ruby and Gary will ride at Exeters Betfred Haldon Gold Cup Day?
Ruby Walsh unwilling to commit to Poquelin ride
By Lewis Porteous racingpost.com
RUBY WALSH on Sunday said that the five-day whip ban he was handed at Aintree the previous day has left him questioning the merits of riding Poquelin in Saturday’s Grade 2 Bet365 Charlie Hall Chase at Wetherby.
Walsh also announced that he will not ride at either Chepstow on Tuesday or Wetherby on Friday due to the stricter whip rules in place on British racecourses and has vowed to be "extremely calculated" when considering future trips across the Irish Sea.
Walsh said: "I know I’m not goingto Chepstow on Tuesday and I won’t be in Wetherby on Friday. I'll have to have a look at the declarations for the Charlie Hall before I decide whether I’m going to go and ride Poquelin or not.
Paul Nicholls: trains Poquelin
PICTURE: Edward Whitaker
"I'm facing a ten-day suspension next time I offend. I didn’t offend on purpose yesterday and I won't offend on purpose ever again, so every ride I take from now on in the UK has to be extremely calculated. It has to be worth the risk."
Walsh picked up his five-day ban for striking Edgardo Sol nine times - one more than the permitted eight strikes that the new whip rules allow - when winning at Aintree, a suspension that almost caused the jockey and his weighing room colleagues to shun the remainder of the meeting.
Reflecting on those events, Walsh told At The Races: "What I did yesterday was instinctive and I was even counting in my head. I counted eight, but rules are rules. I wasn’t overly keen [on riding in the next race], but events transpired that we did go out and ride. It was probably fair to the owners, trainers and punters that were there on the day.
"The rule is wrong. That’s the way I feel about it. I think they’ve gone too far and the BHA should have kept it [the complaints about the Grand National] to themselves and dealt with it."
By Lewis Porteous racingpost.com
RUBY WALSH on Sunday said that the five-day whip ban he was handed at Aintree the previous day has left him questioning the merits of riding Poquelin in Saturday’s Grade 2 Bet365 Charlie Hall Chase at Wetherby.
Walsh also announced that he will not ride at either Chepstow on Tuesday or Wetherby on Friday due to the stricter whip rules in place on British racecourses and has vowed to be "extremely calculated" when considering future trips across the Irish Sea.
Walsh said: "I know I’m not goingto Chepstow on Tuesday and I won’t be in Wetherby on Friday. I'll have to have a look at the declarations for the Charlie Hall before I decide whether I’m going to go and ride Poquelin or not.
Paul Nicholls: trains Poquelin
PICTURE: Edward Whitaker
"I'm facing a ten-day suspension next time I offend. I didn’t offend on purpose yesterday and I won't offend on purpose ever again, so every ride I take from now on in the UK has to be extremely calculated. It has to be worth the risk."
Walsh picked up his five-day ban for striking Edgardo Sol nine times - one more than the permitted eight strikes that the new whip rules allow - when winning at Aintree, a suspension that almost caused the jockey and his weighing room colleagues to shun the remainder of the meeting.
Reflecting on those events, Walsh told At The Races: "What I did yesterday was instinctive and I was even counting in my head. I counted eight, but rules are rules. I wasn’t overly keen [on riding in the next race], but events transpired that we did go out and ride. It was probably fair to the owners, trainers and punters that were there on the day.
"The rule is wrong. That’s the way I feel about it. I think they’ve gone too far and the BHA should have kept it [the complaints about the Grand National] to themselves and dealt with it."
"The rule is wrong. That’s the way I feel about it. I think they’ve gone too far and the BHA should have kept it [the complaints about the Grand National] to themselves and dealt with it."
strange statement
strange statement
Silly billys brought the whip abuse to the masses when it was just fading away.
It was probably fair to the owners, trainers and punters that were there on the day.
Only feckin' "probably"!
Only feckin' "probably"!
Ruby Walsh believes unfair whip rules are hurting British racing
On Oct 10 new whip regulations came into force. Everybody was singing from the same song sheet(alledgedly)
Everybody was singing from the same song sheet, we were told, with jockeys admitting that the image of racing needed smartening up. They saw, better than most, that it was important for the reputation of the sport.
Five long and eventful days later the jockeys were far from happy and threatening strikes while demanding a meeting with British Horseracing Authority officials to discuss how these new laws had to be changed. On Friday the regulators conceded two of the points that riders felt most strongly about – the number of hits allowed in the final furlong and the loss of prize-money percentages.
Senior jockeys then reassured all who wanted to listen that they were behind the introduction of new whip regulations and persuaded more hot-headed colleagues at Newbury that striking was not the way forward.
However, on Saturday at Aintree, there was clear evidence that many riders remain deeply unhappy. It appears that they do not support the latest alterations to the rules and their number includes Ruby Walsh, one of the sport’s biggest names.
When Walsh was handed a five-day ban for going one over the limit of hits on Edgardo Sol, his weighing room colleagues threatened to boycott the following race in protest. Eventually, following persuasion from A P McCoy and two stewards they emerged to take their mounts.
Walsh’s comments underline how this whip issue is very much a British problem. There has been top-class racing in Paris, Hong Kong, Melbourne and Dublin in recent weeks, yet the only country attracting the headlines for whip breaches is Britain. Walsh indicated as much in his strong remarks yesterday.
“I don’t think I should have got banned,” he said. “Rules are rules. But the rules are wrong. I hit a horse eight times behind the saddle, and once down the neck, which I didn’t realise counted. The number of times we can hit a horse is very limited. Eight behind the saddle is fair enough, but the backhand down the neck should not count as the same thing.”
Walsh is now not so keen to revisit British tracks as regularly as in the past. “I won’t be going to Chepstow on Tuesday and I won’t be at Wetherby on Friday,” he said. “We all think the same,” he added, in clear reference to discontent bubbling beneath the surface in the weighing room.
“It’s going to be tough [riding to these regulations] and I don’t see the benefit for racing. Sport is tough. I’ve just watched the Rugby World Cup final and all those men giving everything. Sport is about the best, about winning – and this has gone too far. The loser will be racing. I miss a race at Down Royal [which Paul Nicholls had earmarked for Kauto Star] worth £80,000 to the winner. If that penalty fits the crime, then a lot of people around the world are getting off very leniently.”
Then, to emphasise the differences in attitudes between the two principal jump-racing countries, Walsh said: “The rule in Ireland is common sense. Thankfully, we still have it, but it is missing in England.”
On Sunday there was further evidence that this issue is far from settled. Kevin Darley, chief executive of the Professional Jockeys Association, said that he wanted the rules to be re-examined yet again. He believes they are not acting as a deterrent and are threatening to take away competitiveness from the sport. “The objective was to reduce the amount of whip breaches and if we carry on like we are, they will be doubled.
“There is no buffer for jockeys. Once they go one hit over they get a five-day suspension, when they go two hits over they get a seven-day suspension and any prize money taken away. They are taking the competitiveness away from riders. It is not acting as a deterrent because jockeys are still getting banned, so we really need to look at these rules again.”
Just how much more the BHA is prepared to bend is uncertain. As the authority made clear on Friday, it is racing’s regulator, not the sport’s participants.
On Oct 10 new whip regulations came into force. Everybody was singing from the same song sheet(alledgedly)
Everybody was singing from the same song sheet, we were told, with jockeys admitting that the image of racing needed smartening up. They saw, better than most, that it was important for the reputation of the sport.
Five long and eventful days later the jockeys were far from happy and threatening strikes while demanding a meeting with British Horseracing Authority officials to discuss how these new laws had to be changed. On Friday the regulators conceded two of the points that riders felt most strongly about – the number of hits allowed in the final furlong and the loss of prize-money percentages.
Senior jockeys then reassured all who wanted to listen that they were behind the introduction of new whip regulations and persuaded more hot-headed colleagues at Newbury that striking was not the way forward.
However, on Saturday at Aintree, there was clear evidence that many riders remain deeply unhappy. It appears that they do not support the latest alterations to the rules and their number includes Ruby Walsh, one of the sport’s biggest names.
When Walsh was handed a five-day ban for going one over the limit of hits on Edgardo Sol, his weighing room colleagues threatened to boycott the following race in protest. Eventually, following persuasion from A P McCoy and two stewards they emerged to take their mounts.
Walsh’s comments underline how this whip issue is very much a British problem. There has been top-class racing in Paris, Hong Kong, Melbourne and Dublin in recent weeks, yet the only country attracting the headlines for whip breaches is Britain. Walsh indicated as much in his strong remarks yesterday.
“I don’t think I should have got banned,” he said. “Rules are rules. But the rules are wrong. I hit a horse eight times behind the saddle, and once down the neck, which I didn’t realise counted. The number of times we can hit a horse is very limited. Eight behind the saddle is fair enough, but the backhand down the neck should not count as the same thing.”
Walsh is now not so keen to revisit British tracks as regularly as in the past. “I won’t be going to Chepstow on Tuesday and I won’t be at Wetherby on Friday,” he said. “We all think the same,” he added, in clear reference to discontent bubbling beneath the surface in the weighing room.
“It’s going to be tough [riding to these regulations] and I don’t see the benefit for racing. Sport is tough. I’ve just watched the Rugby World Cup final and all those men giving everything. Sport is about the best, about winning – and this has gone too far. The loser will be racing. I miss a race at Down Royal [which Paul Nicholls had earmarked for Kauto Star] worth £80,000 to the winner. If that penalty fits the crime, then a lot of people around the world are getting off very leniently.”
Then, to emphasise the differences in attitudes between the two principal jump-racing countries, Walsh said: “The rule in Ireland is common sense. Thankfully, we still have it, but it is missing in England.”
On Sunday there was further evidence that this issue is far from settled. Kevin Darley, chief executive of the Professional Jockeys Association, said that he wanted the rules to be re-examined yet again. He believes they are not acting as a deterrent and are threatening to take away competitiveness from the sport. “The objective was to reduce the amount of whip breaches and if we carry on like we are, they will be doubled.
“There is no buffer for jockeys. Once they go one hit over they get a five-day suspension, when they go two hits over they get a seven-day suspension and any prize money taken away. They are taking the competitiveness away from riders. It is not acting as a deterrent because jockeys are still getting banned, so we really need to look at these rules again.”
Just how much more the BHA is prepared to bend is uncertain. As the authority made clear on Friday, it is racing’s regulator, not the sport’s participants.
Is this your precise, Anaglogs?
If so you omitted to say the jockeys were consulted on and agreed to a different scenario. They were only told part of the rules not all of them. This appears to be a thoroughly underhand attempt by the BHA to get unsatisfactory and bad rules onto the rulebook.
The BHA new if they showed their hand to the jockeys they would not get their approval. The launch then would have either been aborted for further discussion or progressed without the consent of the jockeys. Why on earth the BHA wanted to launch the week of Champions Day only they know. Theseare clearly two well planned and blatant attempts to damage British racing. Why?
That decision by the BHA is behind all of the problems we have today.
Finally and importantly, how can a sport be governed by a body the particiants completely mistrust?
Everyone seems to be blaming the jockeys while ignoring the fact they were cheated in the first place.
Anyone in any walk of life would be incensed if they were led into a trap as the jockeys were.
If so you omitted to say the jockeys were consulted on and agreed to a different scenario. They were only told part of the rules not all of them. This appears to be a thoroughly underhand attempt by the BHA to get unsatisfactory and bad rules onto the rulebook.
The BHA new if they showed their hand to the jockeys they would not get their approval. The launch then would have either been aborted for further discussion or progressed without the consent of the jockeys. Why on earth the BHA wanted to launch the week of Champions Day only they know. Theseare clearly two well planned and blatant attempts to damage British racing. Why?
That decision by the BHA is behind all of the problems we have today.
Finally and importantly, how can a sport be governed by a body the particiants completely mistrust?
Everyone seems to be blaming the jockeys while ignoring the fact they were cheated in the first place.
Anyone in any walk of life would be incensed if they were led into a trap as the jockeys were.
It looks as though they told Darley but he didn`t consult his members properly.
Having said that tbf to Darley it looks very much as though they didn`t actually negotiate with him. The so-called consultation looks as though it was a cover for negotiatiopns with the RSPCA and possibly other bodies nearer the anti-racing lunatic fringe.
Having said that tbf to Darley it looks very much as though they didn`t actually negotiate with him. The so-called consultation looks as though it was a cover for negotiatiopns with the RSPCA and possibly other bodies nearer the anti-racing lunatic fringe.
Does this mean Salmon that they had more cosultation with the lunatic fringe than with the jockeys. If so it is no wonder we have the current mess. The only solution now is for the BHA to go before more damage is done.
I don`t know. Darley said he got the proposals on 27th Sept this year. The RSPCA said THEY initiated the consultations in NOV last year ( apparently denied by the BHA ). The trouble is Roy is an arrogant sod and his background anyway is in the secretive world of merchant banking. He has no idea about transparency and judging by his disinclination to talk to the media very little interest in it.
Apparently the RSPCA are claiming they instigated the meeting whereas the BHA claim they did. No-one as yet has answered who did start this process.
And Salmon it has been stated by all of the top jockeys that they never saw the penalty structure before the rules were brought in. The BHA claim they are the regulators, not the jockeys. A right f@ck up.
And Salmon it has been stated by all of the top jockeys that they never saw the penalty structure before the rules were brought in. The BHA claim they are the regulators, not the jockeys. A right f@ck up.
It does look that way brigust as per the jockeys. It`s not clear whether that was Darley`s fault.If HE wasn`t he really should be hopping mad and calling for action imo.
There once was a guy called Muammar who made the rules without consultation with the stakeholders because he said it was his job to do so and fcuk everyone else especially the little people and we know what happened to him.
It will be interesting to see Turnover at the Open meeting and the level of confidence Punters have to wager money on these contests.
The betting Industry has not spoken yet it will be telling if they do
The betting Industry has not spoken yet it will be telling if they do
I can only see Bf losing on this one. The high street bookies will be welcoming any disruption because so far the punters are having a pretty good time. Anything that thows the formbook into question can only be good for them.
As far as Bf is concerned I can see the place markets and lay markets being squeezed. There is a lot of uncertainty about with jockeys not finishing off races. Not good when stakes are high. Two weeks is too short for a pattern but its not looking good so far.
As far as Bf is concerned I can see the place markets and lay markets being squeezed. There is a lot of uncertainty about with jockeys not finishing off races. Not good when stakes are high. Two weeks is too short for a pattern but its not looking good so far.
There are many stakeholders including owners, trainers, jockeys, bookmakers and their staff, punters, stable staff, racecourse owners, racecourse staff, media personnel and a whole myriad of other people working in the sport and I assume most of them have not been properly consulted. The BHA are not stakeholders and are the least important group.
Agreed Arkle. Unfortunately they seem to think it`s between them,the RSPCA and God knows what more loonie organisations.
They are not elected and who do they answer to, The Government??
If the jocks had thought about it they should have got a good spin doctor
If the jocks had thought about it they should have got a good spin doctor
This is a new position for the jockeys. Imagine not being able to trust your governing body. I bet they thought this would be a straighforward process. 'What they have said to us sounds workable we should give it a chance'. Then when they turn up to work on the Monday morning the fly is in the ointment and the devil in the detail they were not told about.
That is the picture all of the jockeys have painted and that looks bad for the BHA. Heads have got to roll. I suggest Roy and Steir for starters. Or Paul and Jamie if your a bookie or a journalist. They've never had it so good.
That is the picture all of the jockeys have painted and that looks bad for the BHA. Heads have got to roll. I suggest Roy and Steir for starters. Or Paul and Jamie if your a bookie or a journalist. They've never had it so good.
Roy is the one I think. He has had a reputation for being a go-it-alone bully for a long time. Of course it doesn`t say much for the others if that was indeed the case.
MARK Johnston believes the horse welfare issue regarding the whip should be left to racing experts.
Mark Johnson 'keep the whip'
Johnston is a leading trainer and a qualified vet, as well as being a British Horseracing Authority director. He is convinced the emphasis should be on welfare itself, and not on public perception. “I very strongly feel that the whip needs to be retained for the proper riding of horses,” the Middleham-based handler told At The Races.
“It is an essential tool for the job, particularly in racing to initiate the right response and make these horses run. I also very strongly feel that it is a welfare issue, but not a welfare problem. Welfare should be put a long way ahead of public perception.
“The BHA review group had to look at everybody’s views which they did in great detail. They came to a decision and did so in good faith. My view is perception has been put ahead of welfare a long time ago. I don’t think these latest changes to the rules have gone any further down that route.
“The problem was once we set down that route it is a case of driving a wedge forward because you are pandering to a minority of people who can’t see any purpose for the whip whatsoever.
“As long as you do that you are accepting they have some sort of case, that they maybe right, and, frankly, I think they are wrong.
“I have never been concerned about the use of whip on my horses. I can think of a couple on instances where I felt the whip was used wrongly and unnecessarily and those were dealt with internally. My main argument is that it’s time we drew a line in the sand and said we are the experts on horse welfare and we will stand by our decision on that. We are not going to change rules to suit what people perceive to be good animal welfare.”
Barry Geraghty felt compatriot Ruby Walsh was badly done to on Saturday when he was banned for five days for overstepping the whip rules on a winner, Edgardo Sol, at Aintree. Walsh is now considering restricting his visits to these shores for big meetings in future.
Geraghty said: “I thought Ruby gave his horse a brilliant ride. He stopped using the whip with about 100 yards to go and gave him one more smack and it was the difference between winning and losing. It was a brilliant ride and to get suspended for that is flying in the face of what we are trying to do.”
Another big name to cop a ban is Frankie Dettori, although the Italian’s was for careless riding. Dettori will miss the feature Saturday of the Breeders’ Cup after picking up a seven-day suspension at Newbury on Saturday. The Godolphin rider was found to have caused Right Step’s fall in the Totescoop6 HBLB Handicap after his mount, Willing Foe, clipped heels with the Alan Jarvis-trained runner.
Mark Johnson 'keep the whip'
Johnston is a leading trainer and a qualified vet, as well as being a British Horseracing Authority director. He is convinced the emphasis should be on welfare itself, and not on public perception. “I very strongly feel that the whip needs to be retained for the proper riding of horses,” the Middleham-based handler told At The Races.
“It is an essential tool for the job, particularly in racing to initiate the right response and make these horses run. I also very strongly feel that it is a welfare issue, but not a welfare problem. Welfare should be put a long way ahead of public perception.
“The BHA review group had to look at everybody’s views which they did in great detail. They came to a decision and did so in good faith. My view is perception has been put ahead of welfare a long time ago. I don’t think these latest changes to the rules have gone any further down that route.
“The problem was once we set down that route it is a case of driving a wedge forward because you are pandering to a minority of people who can’t see any purpose for the whip whatsoever.
“As long as you do that you are accepting they have some sort of case, that they maybe right, and, frankly, I think they are wrong.
“I have never been concerned about the use of whip on my horses. I can think of a couple on instances where I felt the whip was used wrongly and unnecessarily and those were dealt with internally. My main argument is that it’s time we drew a line in the sand and said we are the experts on horse welfare and we will stand by our decision on that. We are not going to change rules to suit what people perceive to be good animal welfare.”
Barry Geraghty felt compatriot Ruby Walsh was badly done to on Saturday when he was banned for five days for overstepping the whip rules on a winner, Edgardo Sol, at Aintree. Walsh is now considering restricting his visits to these shores for big meetings in future.
Geraghty said: “I thought Ruby gave his horse a brilliant ride. He stopped using the whip with about 100 yards to go and gave him one more smack and it was the difference between winning and losing. It was a brilliant ride and to get suspended for that is flying in the face of what we are trying to do.”
Another big name to cop a ban is Frankie Dettori, although the Italian’s was for careless riding. Dettori will miss the feature Saturday of the Breeders’ Cup after picking up a seven-day suspension at Newbury on Saturday. The Godolphin rider was found to have caused Right Step’s fall in the Totescoop6 HBLB Handicap after his mount, Willing Foe, clipped heels with the Alan Jarvis-trained runner.
Kevin Darley is facing a weighing room revolt over what is seen as his weak leadership of the Professional Jockeys' Association over the whip furore.
Pja chief executive Darley is under increasing pressure from members to get a further relaxation of strict new rules after their controversial introduction 13 days ago.
The jockeys gained some concessions from the British Horseracing Authority when amendments to the guidelines were announced on Friday.
But the view of the overwhelming majority is that much more still needs to be done. Dissenting riders are reluctant to be openly critical of Darley - the diplomatic former champion was a popular figure in the weighing room right up to his retirement four years ago.
But many feel he should be taking a harder line with the authorities. Their frustration was summed up by Jamie Spencer, who said: "The whole thing is a shambles. All it's proved is that, as a body, jockeys are weak.
"Everyone should have stuck together and struck for what we believe in. That hasn't happened and we've waved the flag too easily. It shows we have no strength, which is very disappointing." Such is the level of anger on the "shop floor" that strike action - averted when the BHA agreed to meet jockeys last Monday to discuss their objections - is back on the agenda.
But Darley seems to be committed to a approach and leadership style.
He said: "We members to work rules. We are not apsects of those rules, but will continue to work with the BHA on the issues that concern us.
"I don't think we've been weak at all. We've been proactive in that we've gone about it through the correct process.
"The jockeys have wanted to strike, but that's counterproductive as far as I'm concerned and is the last thing we want to do for the industry."
The original whip changes were implemented by the BHA following a 10-month review. Under the revised guidelines, jockeys can now hit a horse more than five times inside the final furlong or after the last obstacle, although the overall race limits of seven on the Flat and eight over jumps remain.
They will now not lose fee if suspended offence and will their percentage money if their a ban of seven rather than the initially stated.
2 RUBY WALSH was left fuming last night after being found guilty of using his whip with excessive frequency when winning on Edgardo Sol at Aintree.
Walsh, handed a five-day ban, fumed: "Who found my ride ridiculous? "Come on, where's this public perception we keep getting told about."
He then added: "If that ride deserves five days, this game is done for."
THIS WAS THE WEEK
That Was the last seven days in racing Last Sunday Jockeys threaten strike action on Monday unless BHA reviews controversial new whip rules.
Monday Strike threat averted as BHA meets jockeys and selected racing bigwigs at London headquarters.
Tuesday Review process begins in earnest as BHA looks in detail at all issues raised at the meeting.
Wednesday PJA demands urgent progress in the amendment of whip rules.
Thursday BHA's review group, which devised the controversial regulations, prepares report on the fallout.
Friday."hip rules relaxed but not sufficiently according to jockeys, who hold protest talks amid renewed calls for strike action.
Yesterday Jockeys advised not to strike by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, who wants members "to work within the rules" whilst dialogue with BHA continues.
Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/racing-betting/racing-news/2011/10/23/darley-f...
Pja chief executive Darley is under increasing pressure from members to get a further relaxation of strict new rules after their controversial introduction 13 days ago.
The jockeys gained some concessions from the British Horseracing Authority when amendments to the guidelines were announced on Friday.
But the view of the overwhelming majority is that much more still needs to be done. Dissenting riders are reluctant to be openly critical of Darley - the diplomatic former champion was a popular figure in the weighing room right up to his retirement four years ago.
But many feel he should be taking a harder line with the authorities. Their frustration was summed up by Jamie Spencer, who said: "The whole thing is a shambles. All it's proved is that, as a body, jockeys are weak.
"Everyone should have stuck together and struck for what we believe in. That hasn't happened and we've waved the flag too easily. It shows we have no strength, which is very disappointing." Such is the level of anger on the "shop floor" that strike action - averted when the BHA agreed to meet jockeys last Monday to discuss their objections - is back on the agenda.
But Darley seems to be committed to a approach and leadership style.
He said: "We members to work rules. We are not apsects of those rules, but will continue to work with the BHA on the issues that concern us.
"I don't think we've been weak at all. We've been proactive in that we've gone about it through the correct process.
"The jockeys have wanted to strike, but that's counterproductive as far as I'm concerned and is the last thing we want to do for the industry."
The original whip changes were implemented by the BHA following a 10-month review. Under the revised guidelines, jockeys can now hit a horse more than five times inside the final furlong or after the last obstacle, although the overall race limits of seven on the Flat and eight over jumps remain.
They will now not lose fee if suspended offence and will their percentage money if their a ban of seven rather than the initially stated.
2 RUBY WALSH was left fuming last night after being found guilty of using his whip with excessive frequency when winning on Edgardo Sol at Aintree.
Walsh, handed a five-day ban, fumed: "Who found my ride ridiculous? "Come on, where's this public perception we keep getting told about."
He then added: "If that ride deserves five days, this game is done for."
THIS WAS THE WEEK
That Was the last seven days in racing Last Sunday Jockeys threaten strike action on Monday unless BHA reviews controversial new whip rules.
Monday Strike threat averted as BHA meets jockeys and selected racing bigwigs at London headquarters.
Tuesday Review process begins in earnest as BHA looks in detail at all issues raised at the meeting.
Wednesday PJA demands urgent progress in the amendment of whip rules.
Thursday BHA's review group, which devised the controversial regulations, prepares report on the fallout.
Friday."hip rules relaxed but not sufficiently according to jockeys, who hold protest talks amid renewed calls for strike action.
Yesterday Jockeys advised not to strike by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, who wants members "to work within the rules" whilst dialogue with BHA continues.
Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/racing-betting/racing-news/2011/10/23/darley-f...
Rory McNiece representing Ruby at the appeal....No doubt Barney Curley....sorry....Graeme McPherson will be representing the BHA 
Now Ruby can you tell us why you have thrown your toys out of pram?
is this just a repeat or is he going to tell us what his been playin at today or am i gettin him mixed up with davy russel ?
Another 3 jockeys banned so far today over whip issues
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