Black Caviar crushes rivals

view race here.

http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-Full-race-Black-Caviar-breaks-Phar-Laps-record-15-straight-wins-Schweppes-Classic-Moonee-Valley-2011/tabid/317/articleID/230434/Default.aspx

Thanks for posting the link Megsy, BC was certainly impressive, but then she often is.

Yes very impressive indeed,and needed the help of the Stewards before hand

What's this rubbish about them giving her an empty stall alongside?

As straightforward as the victory was, however, it wasn't without a trace of controversy after stewards took the unprecedented step of reallocating the starting gate of Here De Angels, who has a history of giving trouble at the start, to protect BlackCaviar.

Here De Angels drew the outside of the five-horse field but started in barrier six with an empty gate between him and Black Caviar in barrier four.

The move came after Moody had exerted pressure suggesting he might scratch the mare when she was drawn next to Here De Angels, who was barred from racing for a spell owing to his unruly behaviour at the gate.

Doubtful Jack's rider Dwayne Dunn described Here De Angels as a "dangerous horse" and Racing Victoria chief executive Rob Hines said the move showed "common sense and good judgement given the circumstances".

Others suggested a Pandora's Box had been opened, and Ange Bassett, part-owner of Balavan, spoke on radio saying both Black Caviar and Here De Angels had been handed an unfair advantage by having clear water beside them. Balavan was scratched.

Australians trying to buy dreams,who would have thought it

everyone sees this as a favor for Black Caviar, how about Here De Angels? the horse is claustrophobic, perhaps having Black Caviar 1 stall over helped the horse?

it was a common sense move, not as if the draw made a huge difference on the outcome of a race in a 4 horse field

Changing the rules for 1 horse is not right - obv the horse would have won anyway. I presume all horses (of all ability) drawn next to 'difficult' horses will now be given an empty stall next to them in aussie racing? A dangerous precedent has been set.

the horse is claustrophobic

Do me a favour!

if the horse is Claustrophobic,then he should not be allowed take part,simple as that

it was a common sense move, not as if the draw made a huge difference on the outcome of a race in a 4 horse field

So why do it then? And yes it helps those horses invovled but not the other horses - still doesn't make it right!

i'm not kidding guys, the horse is claustrophobic (trainer has said so) otherwise he's a damn good horse, got beaten a nose by starspangledbanner a while back

let's be honest, the horse race today wasn't a race for a punt, it was more a spectacle to see the great mare go around, there's no horse in australia that can beat her, I agree it does set a poor precedent

shows the intelligence of snaff and spyker... shyt stirrers with no imput thats respected....as usual

We all like Champions,Megsy!

Megsy - you really are a sad case. If you think changing the rules for 1 horse makes sense just to make it easier for that horse to become a reecord breaker then fair do's - i like a level playing field, you obv do not. All I'll say is, if the rules were changed like this at ascot to favour a UK horse over BC you lot would be screaming and bawling. Sad, so very very sad.......

So next time some small trainer with an average horse asks to have the draw changed shall we be fully expecting the Aussie authorities to oblige them? And why stop there? Lets have the French authorities bend the rules to allow a gelding to run in the Arc!

Plus Bart Cummings certainly missed a trick too and maybe should have asked for the Melbourne Cup to be dropped back to 10f just for So You Think.

Just so you all know i didn't see anyone agree with this on the Aus forum, but i will remember the rule changes when they let some international runners in the MC that are not exactly qualified.

Unfortunately the racing club like to do thing there way such as excess watering of the track before the MC to stop overseas trainers that are used to bogs complaining.

why is it always the same select few who have negative things to say about Australian horses and racing?

why can't you just appreciate a champion mare who is unbeaten from 15 starts

the barrier draw changes in a 4 horse field and you make a big deal from it, she started 1.04 ffs, nothing was ever going to beat her even if she started from barrier 15, common sense decision

educeee...same old shyt stirrers,about 5-6 of them, no names, we know who they are as everyone else does. take frankel out of the equation and they be wanking over snow fairy, mind you they over did the friction with workforce until he became yesterdays fish n chip wrapper.

and since when has europe been representing england as one nation?
ohh i forgot not many class horses in uk you have to claim irish, french,german horses as your own.

the barrier draw changes in a 4 horse field and you make a big deal from it, she started 1.04 ffs, nothing was ever going to beat her even if she started from barrier 15, common sense decision

So why do it then you fúcking idiot

reading never was your strength was it?

common sense decision

if the said horse was so dangerous in the stalls then why allow it to take part?
you really are thick and arent worth conversing with

good, stop posting then

Maybe in the 2000 Guineas when Frankel was drawn in 1 and his pacemaker was in 13 in a 13 runner field they should have reshuffled the draw and put them side by side so that it would have been easier to track the pacemaker. Then we wouldn't have had Frankel getting out too fast and making all and people still going on as if that's the only way he ever runs his races.

By the way, isn't getting out of the stalls fast quite important in sprints? If so and Black Caviar got out well as she did in her last race then why does it matter which horse she was drawn next to?

I see you keep clutching onto that Workforce straw megsy in a desperate bid to convince yourself that just as long as So You Think beat him (although not Snow Fairy) when clearly not his true running in the Arc, that you somehow feel better about So You Think's multiple defeats in "European" racing......quite sad really!

Just to point out too that it was you Aussies who referred to us as Europeans. Plus has it ever occurred to you that because the UK, Irish and French form can all be linked that any runner going over there to race can act as a benchmark to measure the other European horses by?......For example, Purple Moon beaten ½L in the Melbourne Cup was also beaten in a 4 runner novice hurdle at Musselburgh or that Bauer beaten a nose in it was at best a Gr3 winner here and that both would be beaten out of sight in the Arc.

go away mugboy66, this thread isn't about the arc or the melbourne cup, it's about the great mare and our dominance of sprinting distances

Oh how quickly your supposed super horse seems to have been forgotten then, even by yourself.

And as I keep telling you but you seem unable to retain the information, Aussie horses have come over here and been spanked just as often if not more than they have won.

Choisir runs in UK: 2 wins 1 defeat.

Miss Andretti runs in UK: 1 win and 1 defeat.

Takeover Target runs in UK: 1 win 5 defeats.

Scenic Blast runs in UK: 1 win 1 defeat.

Magnus runs in UK: 0 wins and 3 defeats.

Star Witness runs in UK: 0 wins 3 defeats.

Glamour Puss runs in UK: 0 wins 2 defeats.

Bentley Biscuit runs in UK: 0 wins 1 defeat.

Falkirk runs in UK: 0 wins 1 defeat.

So if 5 wins from 23 attempts is your idea of domination then I think I see why were tend to disagree.

Keep picking those cherries Bruce!

like i said the same old shyt stirrers have responded, i havent even bothered to read their posts...normal crap as usual

if the horse is ruled safe enough to be racing, it has to race, and they can't change the draw to suit the mare. Doesn't matter what price it is. Almost as ridiculous as UK whip rules..

LOL....please stop it megsy, you are killing me.

Supposedly "haven't bothered to read their posts" (nobody believes you by the way, as you hand on every word) but still feel qualified to label them as crap......I'm guessing the irony is lost on you there.

again.......

racingpost today


He ruled out any possible trip to Hong Kong, Dubai or Singapore in colourful terms. "Why should we supplement every other bastard's racing around the world?" he said. "Let's supplement our own and enjoy her here for as long as we can?"

However, Moody also told the Racing Post that Europe remains prominent in his thinking after Black Caviar has finished her Australian autumn campaign, outlining a schedule for 2012 taking in the Golden Jubilee Stakes at Royal Ascot and the July Cup before a tilt at the Prix de la Foret.
"I'm as keen as anyone to see her race abroad but I want Australia to see her and enjoy what she does," he explained.

"I tend to talk it down a little bit but the owners are very keen to go to Ascot so if she stays through her remaining races here unbeaten, then we would look at a prolonged campaign.

"When she has finished here, I can see us coming over for the Golden Jubilee, July Cup and the seven-furlong race on Arc day. There's no need to rush back for a stud career or anything like that."
Black Caviar's reputation meant she was next to unbackable on Saturday, when three rivals included Royal Ascot winner Scenic Blast.

The final dividend of 1.03 on most pools represented an SP of 1-33 - but in some states, where it is allowed, no dividend was returned. Punters bet a dollar simply to get their money back - and they never had a moment's worry as she arrogantly dismissed her opponents by six lengths, totally eased down by regular rider Luke Nolen.

"They aren't good enough to beat her here and nothing wants to run against her," said Moody. "The only thing that would stop me coming over is if she gets beaten because really that would mean something had happened - only misadventure could get her beaten.

"I'm not being rude but horses like Choisir, Takeover Target and Miss Andretti - she would tow them. That's not me saying that, it is their trainers!"

ima_mazed66, everytime you post my mug-o-meter goes nuts

stop it man, this thing runs on electricity and my bill just keeps going up and up

it worries you that some of the best sprinters in the world are all australian-bred doesn't it, coming from a nation who retires their very best horses at the age of 4/5 for the pure reason of breeding, it must worry you, I know it would worry me

Actually you are being a bit generous in regards retiring at age 4/5. A lot stop at age 3 & are hailed champions before they prove themselves out of there own age group or can win without giving weight to rivals.

Workforce's connections must be spewing. Imagine the reputation he would have if retired at 3 before he was found out as an older horse.

Actually you are being a bit generous in regards retiring at age 4/5. A lot stop at age 3 & are hailed champions before they prove themselves out of there own age group or can win without giving weight to rivals.

Workforce's connections must be spewing. Imagine the reputation he would have if retired at 3 before he was found out as an older horse.

* Sorry that should read Getting weight from rivals.

i find it quite amusing, Black Caviar has a under rated timeform rating of 135 highest ever by a mare and her last 7 runs have been 130+

being rated by your own ratings as the best of the best sprinters.
it makes sense that any worth while breeders who have a worthy male contender which would boost their stud value if they can beat her.

and the prize money is worth 2 visits to ascot. ..so where are you?

simple answer we all know, running for 2 prize like the other locals and not getting the allocades.....and yes for a change on the other foot, running your own horses with woolie coats out of their season.

just like Frankel....top of the world ratings at a mile...if anyone wants to take his spot, they have to come to him...cant have it both ways....simple

December Draw and Glass Harmonium,Couldnt win an egg and spoon race in the Uk yet they win Group races when sold to the Aussies

Wow! Black Caviar is a monster!

Without any doubt the BEST horse I have ever seen, racing in Australia.

I really think perception becomes reality in a lot of ways, so I like to pick people up early.

This is @onthesnaff.

Glass Harmonium won 1 race in aussie so far up in brisbane, which is not good. He was very competetive in a lot of races but they were against fringe 1st tier horses / 2nd tier horses and a lot of the time he was carrying less weight than them (wasn't wfa).

First time he stepped out in a proper wfa race (cox plate) he finished like 10th about 6-7L back.

Pretty much what you'd expect from a horse who ran 5L or so off bywood and twice over last year.

As for december draw, he improved once he arrived in aussie for sure. He didn't get to compete at WFA but he beat glass harmonium in 10f race carrying 2kg less, so probably would've been well back in the cox plate.

December Draw and Glass Harmonium,Couldnt win an egg and spoon race in the Uk yet they win Group races when sold to the Aussies LaughLaughLaugh

They are certainly better horses than Dual European G1 winner Alandi who is one of the worst horses running in Australia. Anywhere.

Add Doctor Fremantle who is slower than a snail & running currently running around for peanuts in outback New Zealand.

Doesnt say much for European Group form.

euro group form is strong than aus past 6f (could argue 7f) alf, it's silly to argue otherwise.

I just don't think the gap is as great as people (on here especially) in britain make out. The fact is you can run in a lot of decent races (money and prestige wise) in aussie over 8-10f leading up to the main spring races without actually running at WFA.

I suppose what i'm saying is you can quite easily look decent and avoid being exposed over here in aus. An example of this imo is glass harmonium and DD. Because Playing God (a horse who ran right next to GH in almost every cox plate prep race) ran right next to him in the cox plate as well and Playing God is a very consistent horse.

tommy - glass harmonium didnt run his race in the cox plate tho surely.

completely missed the break after playing up in the stalls.

it is strange they way horses form changes so dramatically when making the trip downunder some go backwards and others seem to improve a stone or 2.

dont think we will ever know why but it does seem tempting to buy horses from the uk in the mid 90's in the hope they step forward and compete in million dollar races

I know that's true, but playing god was right by him all carnival and finished right beside him again and glass harmonium is always slow out of the stalls, it was probably just like drawing wide. Not an excuse to finish so far back.

The only other horse coming in from the Playing God / Glass Harmonium form line ran even further back too.

I've no doubt with a proper race he'd have finished closer and only been beaten by 3-4L, but in what is considered a weak year in Aussie you'd expect that. He did run within 5L of Snow Fairy after all.

thehappysnapper ...most european stayers are very light when they reach Australia, trainers in Australia build up muscle, but the most important fact is the european horse is well doceumented in the southern hemisphere as racehorses who dont like a good scrap. the ones that can be educated to love a fight improve heaps.

im not having a dig at northernhemisphere horses, its just whats known in the rcing industry, december draw is an example, very light and hairy, time to climatise and re educated has turn him around.

it just suits some horses and others not.

I should say i'm not actually trying to claim aussie racing is better. I just think there's a smaller gap between our racing and european racing than many think.

I believe a lot of people hear a story like glass harmonium's, that is they hear that he's been nearly winning some group races and even won some (although it was only 1 in a bad racing area) and then that's it. They need no more information to form their opinion. In their mind aussie racing is crap and glass harmonium is some kind of indisputable proof.

And although i'm gonna sound stupid saying this, maybe SYT wasn't quite what we said he was (in relation to previous aussie horses). Ol' Bart never actually said he was the best horse he trained, he would always just he was 1 of the best. But I guess that always got lost, on me too.

yeah ive heard pundits say that about european horses megsy and i have to say i think its complete rubbish and unfounded, what is it based on?

all european horses do is stay and fight imo.

one thing they arent used to is running around such tight tracks all the time even flemington isnt a galloping track compared to the newmarkets and newburys. And as for moonee ponds and even caulfield its like running group 1's around lingfield AW.

are horses trained mostly on race tracks in eurrope? maybe someone can let me know.


heres one european horse who excelled once he was trained on a race track, maybe, a possiblity why some improve while other more expected to improve, dont. taken from script of an interview of mark kavanagh

Out stepped a horse Mark Kavanagh described as "plain and hairy", not the aristocratic European equine he expected.

We just thought he would be a stayer who would do well on the harder tracks in Australia and it had a rating that was high enough for him to be competitive."

'I'll see if we can find a horse in England and we'll buy the bastard and we'll win the Wagga Cup'." ( bush cup )

Kavanagh viewed the form as "very, very poor". He finds it hard to reconcile how the horse with little form in Britain is starting to excite him more and more. "I kept thinking, 'I must have missed something here'," he said.

As soon as December Draw went to Flemington, Kavanagh noticed something else. The horse sweated up, became cantankerous and knew he was at the races. "As soon as he put his foot on the racetrack you could just tell, he loved it."

On May 7, the day December Draw had his first start in Australia, Towzell received a phone call from Kavanagh at Flemington.

"He said, 'Mate, this horse is a different horse, he's turned into a real racehorse when we got him to the track'. He said, 'Just keep your eye on him, I think he might be a good horse', and the bugger won."

Disabled Lumberjack from Ontario claims world record in tree felling,felled more trees than tree odder fellas.

Reported in Killarney Courier (allegedly).

educeee 24 Oct 11 01:03 
ima_mazed66, everytime you post my mug-o-meter goes nuts

stop it man, this thing runs on electricity and my bill just keeps going up and up

Oh you're so funny educeee, laugh? I nearly DID!

At the risk of sounded conceited I feel fairly confident in saying that I'd have no trouble losing and finding you again on most subjects and the give away on your part is that you often throw about the insults but never come back with a well written and informed alternative view to anything I have said.

Perhaps you will be as kind to point out any so called examples of where your "mug-o-meter" suggested anything I've said not to be the case......oh and by the way, wouldn't it really be written and pronounced mugometer, as like thermometer?

As to your point about December Draw megsy, doesn't that just go to prove the point that an average horse here can be a decent one over there and Glass Harmonium is another horse December Draw recently beat in a tight finish and would be a Gr3 winning horse here at best and its owner Lord Weinstock/Ballymacoll Stud have had horses like:

Troy - Derby winner
North Light - Derby winner
Conduit - King George, St Leger, Breeders' Cup Turf winner (twice)
Golan - 2000 Guineas and King George
Spectrum -  Champion Stakes, Irish 2000 Guineas and
Pilsudski - Brigadier Gerard, Eclipse, Champion Stakes, Breeders' Cup Turf & Japan Cup
Islington - Breeders' Cup Filly & Mare Turf
Helen Street - Irish Oaks
Sun Princess - Oaks and St Leger

and various other good horses like Gamut, Saddlers Hall and Hellenic so for them to let Glass Harmonium go they will have realised that it wasn't very good.

What will be interesting is to see that they sold Modun to Godolphin to run in the Melbourne Cup and that one wouldn't be without a chance.

team cretin had to have the last say as usual...pfffttt

Glass Harmonium ffs ran near the tail of the field in the cox plate wasnt up to the class, wtf are uou on about

Thread up for you megsy,only waiting for answers,too difficult?

Was that an after thought megsy? And do I really have to spell out your own post to you?

You posted up about December Draw not me. I was merely pointing out that Glass Harmonium was nothing special over here and a Gr3 winner at best but ran December Draw close over there beaten a short head in a Gr1, and also won a Gr2 and until the Cox Plate had only ever run in Group races there and never been out of the first 4, with form figures of 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 2nd. You were the one who seemed to be suggesting via the new trainer that December Draw was a batter horse there than it was here and I was explaining why to you.

As usually though you do your favour cherry picking and focus on the one race where a previous poster in this thread has said:

thehappysnapper 24 Oct 11 10:42 
tommy - glass harmonium didnt run his race in the cox plate tho surely.

completely missed the break after playing up in the stalls.

I know dietitians advise getting your 5 a day from the fruit and veg groups but yours all seems to be from cherry-picking.

glentoby wtf are you on about, as usual you along with the other short list cant say anything serious , its all about you thinking your shyt dont stink like a others.

read the thread, if you got something constructive to the thread your welcome, but as usual anything australian you attack.

glass harmonium ran within 4 lengths of snow fairy in hong kong after being serverly Hammered during the race.

so dont tell me he hasnt shown potential....Sir Michael Stoute  wouldnt have taken him half way around the world if he didnt think he had a chance.

fractious before the field was released, missed the start 1/2 length, quickly settled on the fence having a liesure run, when the field quicken, he was left flat footed dropped to last, beat only the weaken horses to the line. simply put...out classed.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3M9sUGB6ys

and if you think winning a group 1 against plodding dour stayers is beating the best, think again, shows you have no idea who are the better horses in Australia...2 times the weights had to raised because the better horses fell away due to injury in the caulfield cup

anyway, the field in the caulfield cup was full of european stayers. the race was won by a south australian mare.

december draw ran 25 lengths last, failing to run the distance after enjoying a leisure ride ridden quietly mid field.

so please, lets talk about your reasoning for the defeats, not gloat when things favour a horse and wins and you think you have bragging rights...so come on....explain the loses, both glass harmonium and december draw, you think you know everything.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiM9VPXygN8

good point about being trained on the race course i could see why that in some cases could explain improvement.

Do u not think Glass Harmonium deserved his place even in the cox plate field megsy?

He is flattered by that hong kong result imo. the whole field finished in a heap.

interesting u mention snow fairy i would have loved to have seen her or midday over for the Cox Plate

Short memory megsy?

Thread is there to comment other than Black Caviar,IMA is a big Fallon fan and still/always disagree.

At least he provides facts.


Give us some,both of you?

1.01 MEGSY you cant in worldwide exploits?

i cant have the cox plate being strong form. the 3yo's in aus last year werent the best bunch and for pinker pinker to come out on top.

helmet didnt stay

all points to average form

NAME GREAT AUS HORSES/DAMS/SIRES?..............



???????????????????????????????????????????????

Exceed and Excel

You can't even see how you are contradicting your previous own two posts.

You've talked Glass Harmonium up where it has suited you and then in the very next post talked him down where it suited you......that's top class double standards even for you megsy.

What I actually said about Glass Harmonium racing here (and it's important to read carefully if you want to understand) is that he was a Gr3 WINNER at best, key word being winner. He did run in Gr1 and Gr2 races but not all horses that do that are good enough to win them.

As for when he ran behind Snow Fairy in a Gr1 in the Hong Long Cup, he ended up actually 4¼L behind her and finishing 12th of 13 as opposed to how close and consistently he has finished in your Group races, including a ¼L 3rd, a 3½L 4th and a SH 2nd in 3 of your Gr1s and a Gr2 win. He was beaten 4¼L 6th of 12 and 5L 6th of 10 (behind Twice Over) in the only times he tried Gr1 company here and was also 6th of 10 on his one Gr2 start here.

As for post race comments, they are all about interpretations and opinions and here is the one for the Racing Post regarding GH in the Cox Plate.

Fractious in stalls, missed break, always among backmarkers, ridden over 1 1/2f out, no impression.

Oh and this is a pre-race quote form his trainer Mike Moroney:

"He doesn't step that cleanly from the gates and then he has a lot of speed from there," Moroney said.

"But you can't afford to not step away and for that reason he's probably going to be third or fourth."

So clearly things didn't go to plan! Rearing in the stalls and then fly jumped out and the jockey got thrown around on the horse's back too. Add to that they were well drawn in 4 for a good start but that all went out of the window too once they missed the break. Going by the winning post the first time they are 3 from the back, on the inside and about 10 lengths off the pace and it would have been asking a lot to win from there.

As for Stoute taking him over there for the HK Cup, I might be wrong but I'm sure you have to be given an invitation but either way you don't turn your nose up at a race worth $18,000,000 HK. Plus I noticed that Craig Williams rode the horse that day and in his next race it had new owners and began racing in Australia so for all anyone knows a deal to sell the horse might already have been in place for the HK run.

a deal had definitely already been done to bring GH to aus when he ran in the cup. i actually know one of the guys involved in buying him.

it was one of the conditions of the purchase that he still took his chance in the HK race so Stoute was definitely planning on running in the race, it wasnt like they thought hong kong is on the way to aus lets stop off and take in the the HK Cup and strech our legs a little.

Sorry posted that while you had another afterthought megsy but the easy way to highlight Glass Harmonium didn't run his race in the Cox Cup is that the horse had previously finished ahead of both Rekindled and Efficient (twice) yet both finished ahead of him in the Cox Plate, despite there being none or very little difference in the weights.

As for December Draw or any horse for that matter, if they in back to back races go from winning a Gr1 to finishing last in a Gr1 in its very next race then I'm inclined to think that second run wasn't it's true running, wouldn't you agree?

glentoby....umm your 2nd best miler Excelebration is by australian speed sire Exceed and Excel

if frankel wasnt around it would be Excelebration this and Excelebration that.

what do u think of BC's performances in relation to star witness ima?

dont u think she would have won all 3 races SW contended easily given how easily she dispatched him each time they met?

she beat him over 7L giving him 10lbs eased down!! on a line through him, nothing wouldve got near her!! even dream ahead wouldve been beated with minimum fuss, probably without her coming out of first gear!

he only beat SW over 4L receiving 6lbs in the july cup!!

i think shes the real deal personally and reckon she'd have laughed at dream ahead over 6!

beaten*

night all!

Going by the winning post the first time they are 3 from the back, on the inside and about 10 lengths off the pace and it would have been asking a lot to win from there.

see again you have no idea,just guessing. the track is a swoopers track  and renown for this and gives all runners a chance, he was carted into the race being about 5 lengths off the leaders and when they quicken he couldnt go with them. the winner came from barrier 11  the first 4 place getters were from the rear of the field with 3rd and 4th rattling home from last and 2nd last on the home turn. as i said, your horse was out classed in a very weak cox plate year and where you get off stating 10 lengths is laughable, if thats the case the 4 place getters were 15 lens  off, stop bull shyting

ive seen her up close and BC is without doubt the best sprinter in the world. These other aussie sprinters are no mugs. Star Witness is worth his place in group 1 sprints but there are a few better than him that have still been stuffed by BC. Hay List on his day is a monster as well and he couldnt even get close

Shes so imposing and bigger than most of the colts and geldings she has been beating. And they have to give her weight as Dream Ahead will have to do next year at ascot if they meet.

u are going in circles a bit now megsy.

no one thinks glass harmonium is much good including u but hes still good enough to win group 1's here and not only that be made favourite to do so.

thehappysnapper she gave the boys weight in australia's premier group 1 sprint the newmarket handicap and destroyed them. yes a handicap, was a weight carrying record win and she would have smashed the track record if she wasnt eased up and walked over the line 100m out and never being out of first gear through out.she had them all off the bit 450m out.imagine the time if she took off hard ridden at the same time, what sectionals, how many seconds would she have smashed track record on a track with over 150 years of history. and carrying a huge weight for a mare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4_Qurl05YM

thehappysnapper not circles...im being told how good their mediocre horses are in australia, i have a right to ask to explain their defeats. aint these the experts who know everything?

I think she's a very good horse ilikewavingatbuses and have never knocked her and neither have I knocked So You Think and that's ones a very good horse too but all I said was that he was no superstar and think I have been proved right on that. It's so hard to measure form between horses that have never met and you can only use other horses they have both met as some kind of benchmark and even then it's hardly scientific.

I've never really been convinced that Dream Ahead is a true sprinter but have always thought classy horses are able win over trips that aren't their best and still beat lesser class horses at those ones best trip anyway, it's just that they might not beat the very best class horses at those trips. Had Dream Ahead shown winning form at a mile then I doubt he would have dropped in trip but a combination of Frankel and a mile maybe being too far for him meant he dropped back.

Interesting though that he never dropped back to 5f in sprints and it was always 6f and then moved up to 7f and won, which seems to support my theory above. The 6f Gr1 races Dream Ahead won seem a little devalued by a handicapper like Hoof It stepping up to Gr1 and getting so close to Dream Ahead after previously having been only 6th in his previous Gr1 attempt.

In my opinion anyway, any sprint Dream Ahead won this season, Frankel also would have won if he had run in the same races and there's form of sorts between all of Frankel, Dream Ahead, Canford Cliffs and Goldikova and arguably any of those others would have won those sprints too, despite not being specialist sprinters.

I think it's fairly safe to say that Black Caviar would more than likely have won them too if we use Hoof It as a benchmark. Hoof It might go on to improve with age and prove himself to be a top class sprinter but I don't think he's done so yet.

Do I really have to spoon feed this stuff to you megsy?

Glass Harmonium was drawn 4, which is to the inside and a lovely draw on a left-handed track if you get out early and hold a position, as the trainer suggested would be the plan but it didn't come off. From there GH is out the BACK AND to the INSIDE (key word) so he either has to move to the outer meaning going diagonally or taking a pull around others, which would cause him to lose ground (have a look at Bauer's run in his last race) or stay to the inside and up the @rse of other runners and pray that the gaps and splits come so that they get a run.

His jockey chose the second option and when you are near the back and on the INSIDE in a big-ish 14 runner field, then you are in the lap of the Gods as to whether those gaps come or not and the more horses you have ahead of you and the longer more runners stay in contention, the lesser the chances of that happening. Even if the gaps do come and you are out the BACK on the INSIDE, then it won't be long before those gaps are soon taken by one of the horses ahead of you and funnily enough that's exactly what the winner did, imagine that eh? Those you say came from out the back and were finishing did so having to go out wide which probably cost them more distance than they were beaten by.

Just a guess here but I imagine these "swoopers" come down the OUTER with a clear run? The post race comments for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th were:

settled in 4th well in touch, went 3rd on outside of two leaders inside final 2f, led under 1 1/2f out.

Midfield, 6th on inside 4f out, pushed along and briefly short of room 2f out, switched outside and bumped between horses 1 1/2f out, 4th and in clear over 1f out, ran on under pressure final furlong.

Unsettled in stalls, dwelt, held up in rear, slightly hampered 4f out, headway on wide outside over 2 1/2f out, widest of all final turn 1 1/2f out, 8th entering final furlong, stayed on under pressure, run flattened out final 50yds

So that seems at odds with your interpretation of:

the first 4 place getters were from the rear of the field

Oh and by the way, NO course in the word is a "swooper" course unless the horses are good enough to be doing the swooping! Did Picker Picker "swoop" as it looked to me like that one came up the inner when he was in the best place for the gaps to come on the inside.

As for my 10 lengths bit, I'm a patience kind of bloke so I'll reproduce with a copy and paste and highlight exactly the bit you seemed to have trouble comprehending.

Going by the winning post the first time they are 3 from the back, on the inside and about 10 lengths off the pace and it would have been asking a lot to win from there.

You can't just cherry pick the bits and have to take the whole thing in context.....HTH.

moone valley is renown as a swoopers track.. how the fcuk would you know it isnt, you know jack shyt about horse racing australia, only what you want to read.

Heh, fair game ima_mazed.

None of the races Glass Harmonium contested in group races were WFA. And none were against 1st tier horses, only those on the fringe of 1st tier.

His 1st WFA test was the cox plate, he didn't get to run his race no doubt but it wasn't an excuse to finish so far back.

He finished in line with a horse called Playing God. The only other horse in the race who came from the same form line.

All spring they were equal in their races and in the Cox Plate they both finished 7L back. Playing God drew wide and GH missed the kick, so if things went better i'd say they were 3-4L off the winner.

3-4L off the winner in what was admittedly an average cox plate isn't exactly some indisputable proof that he did better in aus than britain. He finished 5L off bywood and twice over in the POW and the champion stakes after all.

So only horses that "swoop" win there the do they?

I already gave you an explanation why it isn't so go back and read it again........or maybe you just cherry pick the ones that "swoop" and conveniently forget the ones that don't. Did So You Think swoop when winning last season's race because from my memory he tracked the leader and then was in front off the final bend and with at least 200m to go. Or what about the year before when he led from the start.....maybe he was "swooping" from the front eh? If I remember rightly Maldivian led all the way in 2008 too.

Like I said before, no tracks are swoopers tracks because it depends on the horses being good enough to be doing the swooping, or not as the case may be. You may as well say Epsom is a swoopers track because some horses have come from off the pace to win the Derby but enough have either led all the way or been handily placed too during the race.

quote; see again you have no idea,just guessing. the track is a swoopers track  and renown for this and gives all runners a chance

....moron !!!

So if it gives all runners a chance then that must include the ones that don't "swoop" and run up with the pace or front run and make all (just like 3 of the last 4 Cox Plate winners) so then why do you somehow consider it a "swoppers" track? Do all runners race in the middle of the course, away from the inside rail and come wide and late ffs?

Do yourself a favour and stop tying because even I'm feeling embarrassed for you now.

im sure your on drugs.

if you read what i said earlier i wouldnt have to quote my own words. whose being the fool?

i will add, and im sure your educated enough to do your own research.

It can be a leaders track if the rail is out and not in its true position, it has a banking home turn suits  a horse who takes off before the home turn, he is carted into the race , same thing happened saturday in the cox plate, the 4 place getters swooped on the leaders.
Moonee Valley Racecourse in Melbourne is a unique course in Australia, the only one to use Strathayr turf and its home straight is very short at 173 metres

The Cox Plate start begins in the home straight in front of the grandstand, about 200m ahead of the winning post. There is a short run before the first turn, an inside barrier assists in gaining a good position early. Runners must make their bid for the lead before the home turn or wait for a lucky run wide or on the inside fence in the home. The rail in the true position gives all horse equal advantage with jockeys knowlege of the starting point to make their run.

So megsy that's a long winded way of saying anything can happen and horses can win from the front or coming from behind but somehow according to you it's a "swoopers" track......hmmmm.

You are taking one race as it was run on Saturday as the template for how the Cox Plate is won, when I've already pointed out to you that 3 of the last 4 runnings were won by horses either up with the pace throughout or led all the way, Maldivian led all the way in 2008, So You Think did in 2009 and was was never out of the first 2 when winning in 2010. Like I said, no such thing as a swoopers track and horses only swoop to win if they are good enough to.

Anyway sorry tommyjone as I missed your post before but all I was suggesting regarding Glass Harmonium is that he seemed to regularly be contesting a high group level of race over there compared to here. Thanks for not reducing it to childish insults too by the way and I'll bow to your greater knowledge of Aussie racing as to the reasons why but as you yourself touched on, clearly the Cox Plate run wasn't his true form and as I mentioned earlier, horses like Rekindled Interest and Efficient (twice) had previously finished behind GH too yet beat him on the CP.

Something else that I noticed too that you very rarely see here is GH running in headgear over there in a Gr1 and other Group races. Plus Byword and Twice Over would be a fair way from the very best Gr1 horses in Europe over the past few seasons.

Tis very funny watching the UK peeps lining up a horses form at home compared to in Aus to try & justify a difference in standard.

Performances can swing wildly when a horse changes environment to the other side of the world.

Maybe, just maybe the different climate, feed, amount of racing, training regime's, racing patterns & tracks amongst a littany of other things just might have something to do with it.

For every December Draw & Glass Harmonium there is a Alandi or Fremantle Doctor that goes the other way.

Funny & amusing reading though. Keep it up.

What's even funnier is that when So You Think doesn't live up to the hype over here that apparently it's all the fault of the trainer being useless and not having a clue how to train horses, despite him being one of the most successful trainers ever. Yet when a UK or Irish horse goes over there and flops then it's nothing to do with the trainer and all because they horse was supposedly "outclassed."

Let me see if I can help explain why Alandi might be flopping over there. The horse never saw a racecourse as a 2YO and made its debut at 3 in a 12f race and until going over there, 12f was the shortest trip it had ever run over. It also won the Vintage Crop Stakes (big clue in the name there) at 13f, Irish St Leger at 14f (1m6f) and the Prix du Cadran at Lonchamp 20f (2m4f) all staying races. So what distances does the horse compete in when it goes over there? A 6f sprint and a twice over a mile.......I think I can see the problem here.

Doctor Freemantle was no great shakes here by the way. It was 4th in a poor Derby year apart for the winner, one that was so poor that Aidan O'Brien ran 5 and the best he could get was 5th place. When he runs that many you know he doesn't have a stand-out one so goes for the scattergun approach, hoping if he fires enough ammo that he might just hit the target. He did the same in the Derby Authorized won by running. Doctor Freemantle was Michael Stoute's and his other runner finished 2nd in the Derby that year beaten ½L but was later 3rd beaten in the Irish Derby and only won once after that (beating an ex-handicapper) from 4 more starts and was beaten in the King George by another of Stoute's that had dropped back in trip from winning the St Leger the year before.

Doctor Freemantle was a Gr2 and Gr3 horse at best and only won 5 of its 14 races, with its final race here being a Gr1 and finishing 11th of 14 and 24L behind Twice Over. The horse had done all of it's winning at 10f or 12f apart from one 8f win as a 2YO but goes over there and is started off at 8f, a distance it had not raced over for 3 years. It has only once since going over there raced at the same distance in consecutive races having gone 8f, 10f, 10f, 8f, 12f, 11f and 12f and here you can't mess horses about in trip like that, although it might be different over there but the results don't seem to suggest it with a horse used to racing in a different way and in a different country.

Sorry that should have said....He did the same in the Derby Authorized won by running seven. I wasn't sure of the exact number but knew he went mob handed so intended to look it up but forgot and posted before I did so.

The problem with just looking at aussie form ima_mazed and seeing a horse get beat one week by another is that half of the time horses aren't even trying in lead up races or aren't wound up.

In aussie most horses going towards the cox plate race through 7f, 8f and 9 / 10f races before the cox plate, but they're not necessarily trying to win or even wanting to win (wouldn't want the horse in that good of shape so early).

Rekindled interest wasn't anywhere near trying to win the race GH beat him in.

The other problem with aussie is that G1 status can be quite misleading. You can win or place in a G1 without facing 1st tier horses. The one the December Draw beat Glass Harmonium is a classic example of that. The only other horse wound up in that was Playing God who also finished 7L back in the cox plate. And GH/DD were both giving him weight in the weak G1.

Another thing that can prove misleading in aussie is the lack of pace in a lot of races. So you get a horse like GH who likes to lead (at least in aussie he did) and he dictates a slow pace. All he has to do then is be half decent and a bit of a fighter and he can hold on top 2nd/3rd spot against anything except a top class field, the straights (apart from flemington) are not even quite 2f.

The basic point is, although GH didn't get to run his race in the cox plate, you can never seriously quote results from aussie apart from in the cox plate for top horses. Horses can show signs (if you're following aussie racing properly) in other races and some really good or really consistant one's will win lead up races.

But if you're just simply reading the form with no other knowledge, then you're unlikely to be able to draw any kind of proper comparison from horses between their euro form and their aussie form.

And just on SYT, it might interest people to know that the horse than ran 2nd to him in the Cox Plate was a 9 year old called Zipping. An old war horse no doubt, but a non-winner. Never won a group 1 until last season and placed all his career, so maybe it puts SYT in some better perspective.

Please dont try & explain Australian racing Tommy. Its far too much fun watching him spiel out these long posts that make no sense. A great & amusing time filler to read.

Couple of things you post that arent quite right though IMO. Its not that horses arent trying to win as you say, its just that they arent wound up, or at peak fitness until there target race in most cases. With high-class middle distance horses that target is the Cox Plate. Australian trainers use the shorter distanced leadup races to get the required fitness into their charges.

Also on Zipping being a non-winner. 47 starts for 16 wins, just 3 seconds & 7 3rds & over 4.5 million in stakes suggests otherwise. Had also won the Aus Cup that same year. His best racing years were when 8 & 9. A War horse as you say yes. A non-winner. His record suggests otherwise.

I meant a non-winner in the top grad for most of his career.