Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
20 Oct 11
14:11
Joined:
Date Joined:
22 Jun 04
Don't shoot the messenger, Moore said it - not me.
Moore calls for a return to the old whip rules
BY STUART RILEY 8:16PM 19 OCT 2011
THREE-TIME champion jockey Ryan Moore became the latest jockey to speak out against the new whip rules on Wednesday evening, stating his discontent with the whole situation and calling for a return to the old rules.
Contradicting a statement released earlier in the day by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, stating that the jockeys were in favour of reducing the number of strikes permitted under the old rules, Moore called the limit of seven "too low".
"In my view these new whip rules won't work," Moore said. "Everyone came out and said it was for the good of the sport without really thinking what it meant before everything got out of control.
"It is ruining the sport, Kevin [Darley] has been forced into finding a compromise. The fact is seven [strikes] is too low, but we couldn't go in and say we need to hit horses more because that doesn't look good, and that's supposed to be what this is allabout.
"The jockeys asked for clarity, but I'm not happy with the number [seven], it's just too low. How can seven be fine, but eight is too much, it doesn't make sense. You can't put a number on what is abuse, you could hit a horse once and it could be abuse and you could hit a horse 20 times and it wouldn't be.
"No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
On the need for the whip in a race, Moore, who was speaking on Racing UK, added: "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate.
"It makes racing less competitive, you have to ride every horse the same way, some it will suit, but many it won't."
On Monday's meeting with the BHA, Moore added: "The BHA gave the impression they were under pressure to make these changes; they said they had two mailbags full of complaints."
Moore, who described the situation as "boring and sad", added: "They [the changes] are not in the long-term interest of the sport. Hopefully we can see sense and get back to the way things were. I think the old rules were fine and if they want to go back to them but bring in stronger penalties, perhaps that is the way."
Moore calls for a return to the old whip rules
BY STUART RILEY 8:16PM 19 OCT 2011
THREE-TIME champion jockey Ryan Moore became the latest jockey to speak out against the new whip rules on Wednesday evening, stating his discontent with the whole situation and calling for a return to the old rules.
Contradicting a statement released earlier in the day by PJA chief executive Kevin Darley, stating that the jockeys were in favour of reducing the number of strikes permitted under the old rules, Moore called the limit of seven "too low".
"In my view these new whip rules won't work," Moore said. "Everyone came out and said it was for the good of the sport without really thinking what it meant before everything got out of control.
"It is ruining the sport, Kevin [Darley] has been forced into finding a compromise. The fact is seven [strikes] is too low, but we couldn't go in and say we need to hit horses more because that doesn't look good, and that's supposed to be what this is allabout.
"The jockeys asked for clarity, but I'm not happy with the number [seven], it's just too low. How can seven be fine, but eight is too much, it doesn't make sense. You can't put a number on what is abuse, you could hit a horse once and it could be abuse and you could hit a horse 20 times and it wouldn't be.
"No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
On the need for the whip in a race, Moore, who was speaking on Racing UK, added: "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate.
"It makes racing less competitive, you have to ride every horse the same way, some it will suit, but many it won't."
On Monday's meeting with the BHA, Moore added: "The BHA gave the impression they were under pressure to make these changes; they said they had two mailbags full of complaints."
Moore, who described the situation as "boring and sad", added: "They [the changes] are not in the long-term interest of the sport. Hopefully we can see sense and get back to the way things were. I think the old rules were fine and if they want to go back to them but bring in stronger penalties, perhaps that is the way."
Show More
You seem to have missed the bit where he says 20 hits may not be abuse.
Hi flyingbolt! No I got that bit. The point must be that if hitting a horse once could be abusive, surely then it's best for the animal not to take the chance?
Meant to add, especially if you believe this bit in the same article from Moore: "We all love horses and would never abuse them"
Can we shoot the messenger for selecting and twisting part of a quote to suit his own agenda? Very poor tabloid style nonsense that has no place in a reasoned debate.
john92
How can I have twisted the quote? I've repeated the article in its entirety so I can't be accused of changing the context.
How can I have twisted the quote? I've repeated the article in its entirety so I can't be accused of changing the context.
Q: What is the point of this thread ?
A: Too much time on your hands and nothing better to do
A: Too much time on your hands and nothing better to do
For one Willow, some people obviously want to read and respond to it (you're a case in point). Second, it provides a degree of balance to the pro-whip arguments. And third, it highlights the dangers of taking advice from people like Moore who, in an article containing just a couple of hundred words or so, has managed to confuse and contradict to such an extent, that you could be forgiven for failing to understand whether he's pro-whip or anti.
The article was not written he was talking to RUK and sorry Gerry but you are using that to suit your own agenda. I really think you should start following another sport if you think the whip is wrong, because I have just seen 4 horses come down on the bend at Ludlow any one of them horses could have been injured so lets ban bends in racing.
It gets better Steamship - no chance of Moore claiming that anyone twisted his words or even that he didn't say this at all then!
gerry i thought we did this thing already, why did you leave dat fred
Gerry,
Do you think NH racing, if not all racing, should be banned? After all, it could be abuse.
Do you think NH racing, if not all racing, should be banned? After all, it could be abuse.
A lot of this is only playing with words.
You could push someone gently and kill them ( into the path of a train , over a cliff)
You could shove someone hard and not hurt them at all ( in a crowded train.)
Therefore we should never push anyone gently because we could kill them .
Unless context and intent are reckoned with -some statements are effectively meaningless.
You could push someone gently and kill them ( into the path of a train , over a cliff)
You could shove someone hard and not hurt them at all ( in a crowded train.)
Therefore we should never push anyone gently because we could kill them .
Unless context and intent are reckoned with -some statements are effectively meaningless.
Gerry and Big Mac to set up in lovenest exclusive
Its all getting a bit desperate when he's trying stuff like this
Its all getting a bit desperate when he's trying stuff like this
gerry has already been told this vubiant but that did not suit his agenda or give him any attenshun
Chaps
I have replicated the piece in its entirety. I haven't changed the context or tried to re-jig the words Moore used in any way. Despite this, you seem to think that I've done something wrong!
Maybe you guys need to have a word with Ryan Moore to ensure that the next time he speaks out in favour of the whip, he doesn't get himself in a tailspin and inadvertently end up making a case for an outright ban.
I have replicated the piece in its entirety. I haven't changed the context or tried to re-jig the words Moore used in any way. Despite this, you seem to think that I've done something wrong!
Maybe you guys need to have a word with Ryan Moore to ensure that the next time he speaks out in favour of the whip, he doesn't get himself in a tailspin and inadvertently end up making a case for an outright ban.
No, you have taken half a sentence and highlighted it-no big deal
Are you saying that the piece as a whole stands up to any kind of scrutiny zilzal? It's riddled with excuses for the jockeys' own stupid behaviour, with contradictions and with one or two lines that really does make you wonder if he was actually trying to be ironic.
Gerry,
Do you think NH racing, if not all racing, should be banned? After all, it could be abuse.
Do you think NH racing, if not all racing, should be banned? After all, it could be abuse.
Its only you that seems to be taking him down though, havent noticed it anywhere else.
Keep digging old chap
Keep digging old chap
Yep Gerry , answer the Docs question.
After all if it wasn't for a jumps race every April and the media frenzy then we wouldnt be having this arguement
After all if it wasn't for a jumps race every April and the media frenzy then we wouldnt be having this arguement
Gerry you would have some support from me if you were bereating the jockey that rode Raspbary the other day that was tailed off, fell and lost its life. Instead you write about what Moore said last night.
Dr Gonzo
No - I don't think that NH racing should be banned. Why should something that horses do naturally (i.e. run and jump) be banned? Keeping the whip however, will hasten the demise of the sport imo.
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
No - I don't think that NH racing should be banned. Why should something that horses do naturally (i.e. run and jump) be banned? Keeping the whip however, will hasten the demise of the sport imo.
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
This whole RSPCA case is based on media frenzy surrounding the National and it will happen again with the wrong Camera angle
we wouldnt be having a conversation if it wasn't for the event
This whole RSPCA case is based on media frenzy surrounding the National and it will happen again with the wrong Camera angle
we wouldnt be having a conversation if it wasn't for the event
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 16:40
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
They're members of the same club - what do you expect?
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
They're members of the same club - what do you expect?
They're members of the same club - what do you expect?
What, the Mainstream Press??, the one's that had the feeding frenzy about the National in April??-The ones that are reporting it now, apart from the RacingRoast that is..
Surely they would have been all over this own goal in the Guardian???
ffs give em a ring Gerry, they have really slipped up
Oh and Paul wants a cuppa, pronto, tak tak
What, the Mainstream Press??, the one's that had the feeding frenzy about the National in April??-The ones that are reporting it now, apart from the RacingRoast that is..
Surely they would have been all over this own goal in the Guardian???
ffs give em a ring Gerry, they have really slipped up
Oh and Paul wants a cuppa, pronto, tak tak
zilzal - do you read any of the mainstream press? Take a look on any Saturday and you'll see that nearly all feature articles by current and / or former jockeys, by trainers and by journos who've been tripping out the party line for so long that they've actually convinced themselves there is NO other line.
All ive read this morning is "The Voice of Racing" who happens to be Big Mac
Its all so one sided
Maybe Polly Toynbee should do a article??
Keep digging..........
Its all so one sided
Maybe Polly Toynbee should do a article??
Keep digging..........
Like I say, take a read on any Saturday zilzal - then let me know what you think.
Do we only have media on Saturdays then??? Should we get Jamie Oliver on the case?? Should Jordan be given a Anchor role on RUK??
The possibilities are endless!!!
The possibilities are endless!!!
Moore - the most reasonable commentary I have heard on this issue along with Sean Boyce, the idiots who put this scheme together are the same idiots that are ruining British racing, in short, they are not fit to formulate policy on anything and have just done this to justify their salaries. They onlky time the general public took anything like a semblance an interest in horse racing welfare was after the National and that was for all of a few days cumulatively.
We know the new whip doesn't hurt horses so why should we bow to public perception rather than dealing with reality. The jockeys have been way to passive on this issue and allowed this to be foistered on them when they had right on their side(the whips don't hurt horses)
Whether it is 7 or 20 strikes, horses aren't hurt, why is the perception of an ignorant indifferent public being put over the reality of the situation. If people are bothered enough to be outraged, they should be bothered enough to educate themselves.
We know the new whip doesn't hurt horses so why should we bow to public perception rather than dealing with reality. The jockeys have been way to passive on this issue and allowed this to be foistered on them when they had right on their side(the whips don't hurt horses)
Whether it is 7 or 20 strikes, horses aren't hurt, why is the perception of an ignorant indifferent public being put over the reality of the situation. If people are bothered enough to be outraged, they should be bothered enough to educate themselves.
Why not zilzal - Frankie Dettori thinks that Joey Barton is just the type of person that 'racing' needs to attract. And who knows, there's every chance that Jordan knows as much about the game as Cattermole, Graham, Plunkett, Persad, etc. Careful mind, you couldn't get away with asking her if she's ever ridden a horse....
neill d
So you disagree with a large chunk of what Moore said then?
So you disagree with a large chunk of what Moore said then?
Gerry, i'll give you a clueMAINSTREAM MEDIA means OUTSIDE the racing pages, i know its difficult, but they're outside the last few pages and not in the TV mag.
They're the nasty pages who are telling you that Fox is a cad,Greece are skint and Gaddafi's Brown Bread
Racing doesnt usually get a good press from them t appear on those pages
No I agree with him completely, but I'd also love to know what the **** Kevin Darley was doing that he allowed this to occur without putting up a fight.
I think you are getting at the part you highlighted about 1 strike being abusive and 20 not, I don't want to get involved in semantics, but yes it could be that one hard strike could have more effect than 20 soft ones, this is possible.
But where this whole thing is wrong is that by lowering the number of whip strikes allowed, the BHA is implying that the whip is of detriment to horses when it is not, it implies that the fewer strikes the better for the horses which isn't the case.
Do you follow?
I think you are getting at the part you highlighted about 1 strike being abusive and 20 not, I don't want to get involved in semantics, but yes it could be that one hard strike could have more effect than 20 soft ones, this is possible.
But where this whole thing is wrong is that by lowering the number of whip strikes allowed, the BHA is implying that the whip is of detriment to horses when it is not, it implies that the fewer strikes the better for the horses which isn't the case.
Do you follow?
zilzal
Maybe if you mean the non-racing pages in the mainstream press you should say that zilzal.
For the record, what you said is as follows:
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 16:53
They're members of the same club - what do you expect?
What, the Mainstream Press??
Maybe if you mean the non-racing pages in the mainstream press you should say that zilzal.
For the record, what you said is as follows:
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 16:53
They're members of the same club - what do you expect?
What, the Mainstream Press??
neill d
I think you are getting at the part you highlighted about 1 strike being abusive and 20 not, I don't want to get involved in semantics, but yes it could be that one hard strike could have more effect than 20 soft ones, this is possible.
But this is NOT what Ryan Moore said is it?
I think you are getting at the part you highlighted about 1 strike being abusive and 20 not, I don't want to get involved in semantics, but yes it could be that one hard strike could have more effect than 20 soft ones, this is possible.
But this is NOT what Ryan Moore said is it?
Gerry you are getting desperate mate, you forgot to say that the 16-53 post was quoting from you
look up mainstream
look up mainstream
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 16:40
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
That do you?
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
That do you?
As I said don't want to get involved in semantics, I don't view the whip as an abusive tool and neither does Ryan Moore, there is no point in being disengenous by taking his comments out of context. He is clearly saying that there is no hard and fast number of strikes for what could constitute abuse and I agree, it depends of the context of the situation that should be judged on a cas by case basis with no strict criteria and at the stewards discretion.
The jockeys should look at hiring someone with more foresight who would make sure he would involve himself in the formulation of policy on issues such as this from an early stage, Kevin Darley should resign over this as he has patently failed to protect his members.
The jockeys should look at hiring someone with more foresight who would make sure he would involve himself in the formulation of policy on issues such as this from an early stage, Kevin Darley should resign over this as he has patently failed to protect his members.
C'mon zilzal - you're the clever fecker. You used the term 'mainstream press' when you meant something else. You've caught whatever Ryan Moore's got imo.
You quote both of us and pretend it was me LOL
Selective copy and paste, you are good at it
Selective copy and paste, you are good at it
You are the only one who seems to have "Brought this case crashing down"
Or do you work for the BHA
Regards to the lads, tell them that their conference office needs a bit more colour btw
Or do you work for the BHA
Regards to the lads, tell them that their conference office needs a bit more colour btw
neill d
If you don't see the whip as a potentially abusive tool (even though Moore clearly does) can you explain why Moore goes on to say: "No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
Why are senior jockeys having a word with these young lads? What do you think Moore is referring to?
Admittedly Moore then contradicts himself again with "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate."
If you don't see the whip as a potentially abusive tool (even though Moore clearly does) can you explain why Moore goes on to say: "No-one wants to see horses abused and if a young lad hits a horse unnecessarily, the senior guys will pull him aside and set him straight. We all love horses and would never abuse them."
Why are senior jockeys having a word with these young lads? What do you think Moore is referring to?
Admittedly Moore then contradicts himself again with "Once a horse comes under pressure, you need to keep them up to it or they relax, there's no pain, but it is just getting them to respond and concentrate."
Oh dear zilzal - you can't even quote me accurately. No wonder you struggle with terminology like 'mainstream press'!
Gerry Gallbladder 20 Oct 11 16:36
Dr Gonzo
No - I don't think that NH racing should be banned. Why should something that horses do naturally (i.e. run and jump) be banned? Keeping the whip however, will hasten the demise of the sport imo.
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
Gerry Gallbladder 20 Oct 11 16:36
Dr Gonzo
No - I don't think that NH racing should be banned. Why should something that horses do naturally (i.e. run and jump) be banned? Keeping the whip however, will hasten the demise of the sport imo.
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
You mean to two separate points Busvaldo or can you not read?
zilzal - has fecked off to try and find out what the 'mainstream press' is
neill d - is desperately trying to find a plausible way of presenting what Ryan Moore said as a positive
Busvaldo - booking himself some adult learning classes
neill d - is desperately trying to find a plausible way of presenting what Ryan Moore said as a positive
Busvaldo - booking himself some adult learning classes
Zilzal has just had some Sausage and Mash, some of us eat after all.
You are the only one who thinks this brings the case down
You are the one who takes half a sentence and highlights it "a la Alistair Campbell"
I migh have some dessert in a few minutes, is that ok??
You are the only one who thinks this brings the case down
You are the one who takes half a sentence and highlights it "a la Alistair Campbell"
I migh have some dessert in a few minutes, is that ok??
And has the "Mainstream NON RACING PRESS" cottoned on to this yet
... i agree with gerry to the extent that there are so many inconsistencies in the views of jockeys regarding what is "acceptable" or not it makes you wonder what they truly believe....
..some consistency in their arguments would make them seem a little more credible.
..some consistency in their arguments would make them seem a little more credible.
And PEOPLE can read EXACTLY what words were posted on here, by whom and and what time, who copied and pasted WHAT..
And who is trying to mislead.....
And who is trying to mislead.....
ALL Parties have made a balls up, but it was done before this week firstly
Now, the NATIONAL, which is behind VIRTUALLY ALL this, what will happen if we see more dead horse's at a certain camera angle and there is no whip involved.
What happens then??
Now, the NATIONAL, which is behind VIRTUALLY ALL this, what will happen if we see more dead horse's at a certain camera angle and there is no whip involved.
What happens then??
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 16:40
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
Okay - you're inserting words that weren't there before zilzal and then have the gall to shout about me highlighting words in the Moore piece!
Pity you didn't think before you typed.
Pity Moore didn't think before he spoke.
Pity Busvaldo's old man didn't use contraception.
Well i havent heard anything from the mainstream press about "Bringing the case down" its just your opinion in this case.
Okay - you're inserting words that weren't there before zilzal and then have the gall to shout about me highlighting words in the Moore piece!
Pity you didn't think before you typed.
Pity Moore didn't think before he spoke.
Pity Busvaldo's old man didn't use contraception.
Semantics, keep spinning
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
Taken, bringing, shminging
p.s. zilzal - with this ridiculous piece, Moore has taken himself and the case for the whip down with him.
Taken, bringing, shminging
Anyway im going to have some Cheesecake with cream now, is that ok
I half expect to see
zilzal1
Im off to eat humble pie
appearing on a cut and paste
I half expect to see
zilzal1
Im off to eat humble pie
appearing on a cut and paste
zilzal1 20 Oct 11 18:00
You are the only one who seems to have "Brought this case crashing down"
Almost the same I said although if you use quotation marks it's generally accepted that it should be exactly the same. Let's ask that doyen of the English language, Busvaldo, for a ruling....
You are the only one who seems to have "Brought this case crashing down"
Almost the same I said although if you use quotation marks it's generally accepted that it should be exactly the same. Let's ask that doyen of the English language, Busvaldo, for a ruling....
Eat whatever you want zilzal although I would steer clear of the pop if I were you.....
Pity Moore didn't think before he spoke.
Pity Busvaldo's old man didn't use contraception
Ist comment is very true,2nd cracked me up-sorry busvaldo.
It does seem that the jockeys are not very consistent on this topic,some saying whip abuse,some saying it dont hurt and some saying both!!
Pity Busvaldo's old man didn't use contraception
Ist comment is very true,2nd cracked me up-sorry busvaldo.
It does seem that the jockeys are not very consistent on this topic,some saying whip abuse,some saying it dont hurt and some saying both!!
not to mention changing their views from one day to another!!
Busvaldo 20 Oct 11 18:10
Responded twice their Gerry,oh dear!Laugh
Dare say you regret this (incorrect) comment from earlier after your double post there eh Busvaldo!
Responded twice their Gerry,oh dear!Laugh
Dare say you regret this (incorrect) comment from earlier after your double post there eh Busvaldo!
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539