Disgrace,,,,,,something HAD to be done.......

McCoy, the Grand National winning, 16-time champion jump jockey, added: ‘The Professional Jockeys Association has worked closely with the Authority on the BHA review and I hope my colleagues will embrace the  proposed changes as they are in the best interest of the sport. I, for one, support the changes.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2042321/Frankie-Dettori-AP-M...

Dettori, who was banned for nine days for hitting Rewilding 24 times in the last two furlongs when he won the Prince of Wales’s Stakes at Royal Ascot in June, said: ‘I am not proud of having fallen foul of the whip rules in the past but I have never harmed a horse. These new rules are easy to understand which will help jockeys ride within them.
‘I accept these new rules are in the best interest of our great sport.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-2042321/Frankie-Dettori-AP-M...

Sir Henry Cecil, 10-times champion Flat trainer, added: "The BHA has done an excellent, thorough job with their review and I welcome these changes, which will hopefully serve British Racing well."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horseracing/8791294/Frankie-Dettori-welcome...

Paul Nicholls, champion jumps trainer for the last six years, said: "Whilst I've been a critic of the rules in the past, nobody likes seeing misuse of the whip and I agree that the time had come when something had to be done.

"I am pleased that the BHA has made sensible and reasonable changes, and I am supportive of them."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horseracing/8791294/Frankie-Dettori-welcome...

Oh my god what a mess. Old whip rules should be re instated with immediate effect untill a sensible compromise can be reached .


Paul Nicholls on Twitter

TONY MCCOY HITS OUT AT NEW WHIP RULES

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/11/tony-mccoy-whip-rules

...but through all of this you have never stopped betting on it renge...

Frankie Dettori admits new whip rules 'very hard' to follow for jockeys


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/horse_racing/15254324.stm

....no Stake...i havnt.....before betfair i knew nothing about horseracing...still dont really...am a maths guy/trader as i have stated before....

but now that the bandwagon is rolling I would like my opinion known....i am in favour of a whip ban...

...and given the utter lack of respect that some of the jockeys have shown towards the old rules the least they can do is persevere with the new ones.

The Stewards held an enquiry to consider why D E Mullins, the rider of RASPBARY, which fell at the eleventh, had continued in the race when his horse appeared to be exhausted. They interviewed the rider, accompanied by Seamus Mullins, the trainer, and the racecourse Veterinary Surgeon, Mr Chris Jinnett, who was stationed at the tenth fence, and who observed that the gelding appeared tired on jumping the tenth. Having heard their evidence and viewed recordings of the race the Stewards found the rider in breach of Rule (D)45.3 and suspended him for eight days, on dates to be notified.

so ranader........with the apparent contradictions and backtracking of racings great and good.....

..where does the truth lay...?????!!!!

Not sure they should persevere with the new rules, when it is clear they are fundamentally flawed...

...the jockeys flouted the old rules Stake.......

..and they are either flouting or cant cope with these.....

so what is to be done ????????

..wouldnt it be simpler all round for a total ban of the whip????????

Jockeys should get severe punishments if it is demonstrated that they have abused a horse. Stewards need to play a role here. 6 month bans should be dolled out, 3 strikes and a life ban from the sport.

These new whip rules are a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and worst of all they are unfair, and unworkable.

Fine egner. Let's ban it...

Now let's cull the horse population for those that are quirky because they won't give their best running without the whip. How many do you think that could be? A couple of thousand? They're good for nothing now...no owner will want them.

It will take a while, but the form book will then reflect their true ability accurately.

If we cannot have winners one way, then we can do it by natural selection. Survival of the most genuine. As an owner I am damned if I am going to pay good brass to have a horse playing up out the back of the field or pulling himself when he gets in front. In that state, he is not reliable to bet on...

So go on, let's ban the whip totally.

...quay street....

..is it beyond the wit of man.......in this "modern" age......to train a horse to run to its true potential without using a whip..?????

egner

we can ignore there earlier quotes made before the regulations came in

Now realise what a mess it is they have clearly changed their minds...

I am not a charity and I will not take a risk on an expensive animal at a sale.

If the animal is not straightforward and given the whip is no longer an option, then I don't want to know about it. Let the tree-huggers look after it.

Also if it comes from a stallion that is known for quirky animals, then I reckon that stallion will be no longer used for breeding.

Natural and genetic selection of only the most straightforward.

Take away the whip completely and horses will still be killed in action on the racecourse. If you take your arguments to their logical conclusion, then you should stop betting on horses with immediate effect imo...

fair enough quay street.....

i know nothing of ownership....or the machinations of traning......

but heres a thought......perhaps its the "qurky" ones that have the most untapped potential...and maybe a little patience and a bit of increased financial risk may reap greater rewards in the long term...

..i guess the retort is that such an idealistic view is easy when im not putting the cash in !!!!!!

monty roberts once said on C4 that the whip should be banned, funnily enough he did things with horses that surprised many people too

What happens if the people that already regularly bet on (or invest in) racing decide that the issues of integrity are further put into question as a result of the new rules and stop, just on the basis of allegations of the ambiguous term 'public perception'?

Pandering to people who may never even bet could imo bring the already 'in danger' sport to its knees.

There has been no firm evidence put forward that backs up the rhetoric that 'everybody' had a problem with the whip, the 'whip' that had already gone through significant research and development.

There has been a lot of scaremongering over a minority of cases, educating the public would have been the major issue for me, along with better scrutiny and punishment of 'over use'.

Just to clarify, 'pandering to people who may never bet'...ofc you dont have to bet on racing to have an opinion on welfare, but in all too many cases the 'whip' is a stereotype and the questions have been loaded with negative connotations, people who know nothing of the game assume things that arnt necessarily true

asking people what they think of the whip is like asking somebody what they think of dogsh1t

just my opinion probably everyone else diagrees

I disagree because I don't see how you link Rewilding's PoW run to it breaking it's leg in the KG

Yes watchit that is rubbish. Imo of course. Rewilding I agree was given a shockingly hard race at Royal Ascot for which Dettori was rightly banned under the old rules but I can`t see what that had to do with him breaking a leg next time out.
The Mark Johnston trained Cockney never ran as a 2-y-o. It may have been given a hard race at some time but again it broke down fatally before the home turn.
Cape Blanco is a 4-y-o entire who has won several Grp1s and been retired to stud. Hardly unusual.
If you were fishing I have obviously swallowed it hook line and sinker.

does not watchit have a point? for all we know, Rewilding was telling Dettori he was hurting and had done enough in the Prince OF Wales, but Dettori kept asking for more by using the whip. The horse responded but with possible consequences for when he was next put under maximum pressure?

Fractures, tendon and ligament strains, heart attacks etc do not neccessarily occur because of a single incident. Is it not more likey that most will be caused by constant exertion, wear and tear, pressure being applied until you reach the straw that broke the camel's back?

You a vet pedrobob ?

no salmon, just applying own experience of injuries suffered in a variety of sports, and making assumption that would not be much different physiologically for equines.

Would this not be your own experience?

Easy in hindsight, but you can look at the last year of Best Mate's life, and see that his defeat at Leopardstown to Beef Or Salmon, where he was nowhere near his best, was a portent of what was to come. He missed the Gold Cup 3 months later and was not seen on a racecourse until his sad death the following November as a 10yo. Would hold the view that his heart attack was not a sudden reaction, but possibly a build up of issues developing over the previous 12 months.

I suppose the Best Mate scenario is plausible,though I strongly suspect a vet found nothing wrong with him. The Rewilding one is stetching things a bit imo.

Rewilding suffered a leg fracture did he not? Would it not be possible that a hairline fracture originated in the Prince OF Wales, gradually worsened ( or at least did not improve or heal) in subsequent training and finally snapped under maximum pressure in the King George?

Possible of course,but such an injury could start on the gallops I would have thought.
Most horses who break legs on the flat have not had VERY hard races previously.

agree with your comments re most injuries starting on gallops, especially with the flat horses starting training as ungrown 1 and a bit year old weaklings whose bones will not be properly developed until they are at least 4.

Just pointing out that in the case of Rewilding, he obviously had a hard race in the PRince Of Wales, and it's possible that the horse was feeling it and had done enough, but the jockey decided otherwise. Every jockey would pull up if they felt something was clearly wrong with their mount and not at all suggesting that Dettori knew anything was amiss - likely that this horse was very game (which think many are) and ran through the pain when asked.

pedrobob 18 Oct 11 12:25
Rewilding suffered a leg fracture did he not? Would it not be possible that a hairline fracture originated in the Prince OF Wales, gradually worsened ( or at least did not improve or heal) in subsequent training and finally snapped under maximum pressure in the King George?


with all the care and vetinary attention they get would find this scenario impossible to accept. you seem to be saying no one might have noticed this, despite the care they receive daily.

do you relly believe this would have been allowed to happen.

i find your statement completely without substance, apart from the FACT the horse suffered a leg fracture, which could have happened at any time. to suggest in a stable like this, the horse wouldnt have shown any symptons of this while in training is fantasy in my opinion.

as previously suggested, the fracture could have been so hairline that the horse stood training without displaying any obvious lameness at home. So not suggesting that Godolphin were in any way negligent in their care of the horse.

Horses are not asked for max pressure at home (are they?), so possible that it was only in the King George that the problem surfaced? If I remember, he had barely come off the bridle when the break happened, so had yet to be even asked for maximum effort in the race itself.

out of 5

how painful is it for horse being whipped?

thx

sorry pedro, its all about opinions but i really cant have that scenario in rewilding case. like you i am not a vet or have i worked in a stable but this is a million to one shot for me and bears no relevance to the whip debate.

the whip issue had to be looked at, the punishment has to fit the crime, the rules have to be workable, which the new rules clearly arent.

good luck today

Agree completely with Dustybin. The word whip conjures up thoughts of torture etc. If it were called an incentiviser, the public wouldnt care less about it. Same object just different name, and all would be fine.[;)]

Well this is going to run and run.
The only 2 ways it can ever stop imo is for racing to say stuff the whip objectors and do what we want,or ban hitting horses with it completely and just have it for steering purposes.
As we now live in a society that hates any sort of abuse of animals i suspect the 2nd option is the best way of ending this debacle.
Not really my take on it,but it is clear that something drastic now needs to be done for racing to continue in this country now,and for the future.
However this is decided is clearly not going to please everyone,thats life,but the main thing in this day and age is for racing to be seen to be putting horses first,whether we like it or not.

dealer, I do not know what happened to Rewilding. I personally think most horses are genuine and honest creatures who when trained properly will do what their rider asks, including running through the pain barrier in response to being urged to go faster when the whip is used, and as we see in many cases where a serious injury occurs, on three legs.

Am suggesting that is what happened to Rewilding when winning the Prince Of Wales. Maybe if Dettori had been restricted to 7 strikes then, the horse would not have been compelled to run through the pain barrier. He may, however, still have suffered the final fatal break irrespective of the no of strikes used that day, as a fracture could have occurred before a whip was even used at all.

think your right Buddeliea
With courses watering more and more to never get firm ground. Fences being modified and moved the whip was always going to be the next.
No way back now.

Budd - if the whip is banned altogether, that will finish racing as a gambling sport. Should we then ask the objectors to the whip, if they would willingly pay more tax, as the people employed in the racing game[and there are many] now become unemployed.
I think we know the answer to that.

pedro.... you might well be right but in my opinion and it is only an opinion, i just cant have the horse carrying an injury, like the one you suggest, from one race to another without anyone or anything detecting it.

fractures will happen, loads occur early on in races before the horse has been brought under any kind of pressure.

most experienced jockesy would no when riding if something wasnt right, the feel of the horse would be different or the horse would show some signs, by hanging, switching legs etc

like i said its only my opinion