SEA THE STARS wouldve BEAT frankel today..

sts= true freak!

Not over a mile

Not TODAY though!

no way over a mile, usual irish talk

fishing ilwab

STS

only a kn0b would be so absolute about anything like this, the forum is full of kn0bs, you are obviously one of the loud mouth majority

buses not over a mile he wouldnt

nothing to do with irish eddie, sts was a freak, frankel keeps beating excelebration (he can only just beat rio de la plata) !

sts wouldve laughed at him today!

cheers

STS would do him over any 1m+ trip on the snapper.

Cityscape would off beat him today, wide yer think they took him out?

what about immortal verse ilwab who beat your beloved goldi easily?

im with u brother mou!!

frankel couldnt do what sts did but sts could do what frankel did, thats the difference!

goldi is SIX reve, dont be silly

Queally was looking behind him after half a furlong!Class!

i wasnt blown away by frankel today!

sts wouldve picked him up easily today imo!

he beat delegator in the guineas and his main opposition over the longer distances was the decent 2 miler fame and glory, great horse but not hard to have petty digs at his form either

over a mile??
in you're dreams!

STS achieved more as a 3yo, but it's fantastic that this horse is staying in training.

DON't BE SILL!!!

From the three to two pole he was UNDER ELEVEN SECONDS!!!

STS did NOT have that sort of turbo

BUT he was a true champ in his OWN right

holes in everyones form ed!!

even frankels!!


look how close excell is at the furlong pole, look how hard tom is working away, sts wouldve picked him up and carried him !

I wasn't keen on Frankel's head carriage for a bit their either, would down tools when STS came to his girth NAP

Sea The Stars was great at 10&12f, Frankel would be odds on to beat him over 1m. Cant wait 2 next year with him going up to 10f.
We have been very lucky 2 see 2 superstars over the last few years.

Sorry Illwab, you are talking complete b@ll@cks.

they ducked the breeders cup vs Zenyatta. they'd have probably have run scared of Frankel.

yeah i agree bro mou, might be a bit of a dog!

^Well said

dont be silly ELG, hes a turf horse not a dirt horse!! there horse was on the go from guineas day!! frankel ain going to the BCthey wopnt even put him up to 10f this year ffs

poets voice beat rvw, rvw not that far behind sts , poets voice hammered by frankel, say no more

if only it worked like that elis, id be printing money

canford beating rvw eased down then getting murdered by frankel as well

beat 1/4 L

go take a nap eddie!

hughes stopped riding towards the end of the race

we will never know but what would you have paid to see it.

ok ive moved on now!!!

this debate is over!

we're talking about a guineas/derby/arc winner here forgodsake!!

thanks for the debate!

arc win irrelevant over a mile

cheers ilwab

youre a good man eddie!!

gl today!

At least we are going to see Frankel as a four year old fair play to connections, unlike STS who was packed off to stud at the first available opportunity. it might be difficult to choose between the two horses but there is no comparison when it comes to the connections of both!

fair comment although frankel still has to win over further!!

also would the connections have kept frankel in training had he won the guineas/derby/arc  and the others?

unlikely!

Check the form book Rip Van Winkle/ Poets Voice suggest Frankel would have left STS for dead.

STS couldn't beat an egg white

STS couldnt have beaten Frankel in these times. Micky Jo would have to stop whipping well before the line.[;)]

They were scared to run Frankel in The Derby, they were scared to run him in The Arc, they are scared to run him without a pacemaker, they are scared to run him over anything other than a mile.

STS gave his peoples none of these fears.

theres absolutely nothing to suggest sea the stars wouldnt have beaten frankel or vice versa.

sea the stars held back, frankel goes full pelt everytime, holds nothing bak, we KNOW how good frankel is, we dont know how good sts is/was. but lets look at the bare bones of it, frankel is 4L better than excelabration, frankel is a trier and he CANT beat bottis horse more that 4L , this is hos limit(at the moment anyway).

who would i rather own a champion miler or a horse that has won the guineas derby and arc, no contest ffs.

he a champion miler, the guineas derby arc are the races that matter, not the facking qeII and the st james palace.

i love sts as u all know and i also frankel, i dont want to see him beaten either and tbh this thread was a bit of a wind up , EVEN THO I BELIEVE STS WAS BETTER but i was just winding u all up really for a bit of banter!

eitherway, anyone that measures the ability of sts thru collateral lines with rip and fame and glore et all and take them literally are deluded!! are u really telling me sts wouldnt at the very LEAST BEEN IN FRONT  of botti's horse yesterday and would have been coming after frankel ? seriously, anyone that believes this needs looking at!!

excelebration was asked a very serious question beating rio de la plata ffs just over a length and if they raced again tomorrow he wouldnt beat him any further! we can get carried away wih wonder horses and  frankel is an exceptional horse but when it boils down to it at this v moment hes 4L better than excelbration, this cannot be disputed, this is a fact, hes faced him 3 times and cant get any further than 4 L from him at the line. these are still brilliant performances by frankel but hes done nothing to suggest he would beat sea the stars , nothing!

yes, of course sts wouldnt have won the guineas like frankel but he just wouldnt be bother doing that, he would just race with the others and then lead at the line. the guineas was a great race but as badly as sts form gets crabbing, frankels guineas was a facking joke aswell and the time wasnt exceptional either, sts ran faster. u say thats because he was on his own? surely that was an advantage, he had an easy lead and the others tried to close him down and it was too late! what have the horses achieved that were in behind ?

answer, not  alot,2nd dubawi gold won a g2, 3rdnative khan? nothing!4th slim shady cant win a handicap off 92 ffs.

5th fury? won nothing

6th happy today  nothing

7th pathfork- not seen since

8th rerouted- nothing

9th loving spirit- nothing

10th casamento won a g3

the fact that roderic won the irish guineas under a canny ride just tells u hao sh!te frankels guineas was and how the race simply fell apart!

sts guineas

to follow!

2nd delegator- much better horse under meehan 2nd in a st james palace, joined godolphin, downhill since, won the duke of york.

3rd - gam amhas- possibly the most disappointing , won nothing

4th- 3 time g1 winner and runner up in a few more, won the sussex, qeII, juddmonte, runner up in qeII.

5th- irish 2000 guineas winner, won st james palace, 4th in the BC dirt mile(no room).

6th- evasive, nothing

7th- cheerful delights, nothing

8th monitor closely, great voltiger winner (g2)

9th finjann- g2 winner

10th oceans minstral, nothing

11th ouqba, g3 winner

12th lord shanakill, prix jean prat q1 winner, g2 winner

13 ashram, nothing

14 cityscape- 2 grp 3's and beaten a short head in a g1

15 impreial guest , nothing




so looking thru both guineas there are far far more winners in sts guineas, most struggked to win a race again in frankels. so regarding sts guineas being worse acn u all please stfu.

tar

Comparing horses of differing years based on a single race is absurb, but if you want to use that premise, compare each horses 2 year old debut where STS was beaten into 4th by rubbish, and Frankel beat a subsequent group 1 winner.

^^^complete tw@t imo

Not you Andrew I mean't Ilwab.

i totally agree with u andrew, but i keep hearing how sh!te sts guineas was and how great frankels was, so i thought id just state FACTS.

it would appear going by subsequent winners that sts guineas was infact better.

i completely take your argument about races and horses frankel has beat but i keep hearing this facking guineas theory and how sts guineas was so there u are now!!


brigust purple with rage ...again

are u ever NOT SEETHING brigust?

I'm definitely not seething Ilwab. I, and I believe the vast majority know Frankel would murder STS over a mile. So why on this earth would I be seething?
I don't know, and neither do you, whether he is better over further we will have to wait and see. Unlike you I am not claiming Frankel would beat STS over one and a half miles. But, also unlike you, I am sure he would beat STS over a mile.
Again we will have to wait and see. In the meantime I'm enjoying watching you pushing water up hill. And when Frankel returns in the same vein next season I will watch you disappear slowly into the distance.

I almost can't wait.

it doesnt matter what 'the vast majority ' think brigust!  completely meaningless!!why does my enthuiasm for sts annoy u so much brigust?

i also stated this was a bit of a wind up!! i THINK  sts would beat frankel over any distance actually but it doesnt make this so, it just sparks a good debate back and forth but u normally come on with some stupid comment like u did last night!

why are u so angry?

and ill never disappear in to the distance because frankel wins more races, I want HIM TO WIN, IM  A FAN, just dont get why henry didnt give the horse his chane in the champion or arc at this stage, hes bred for it, i dont think he'd stay 12f but he might so why is henry afraid to allow him to line up in the champion at least?

ive seen him beat excelerbation twice easily before yest, having him in the champion wouldve made it an outstanding race and test fr the horse, henry wont take him out of his comfort zone, bit of a joke really!! greatest horse of all time ? and he never raced beyone a mile at 3. never even lined up in the derby, hes basically a champion miler like rock of gibraltar, a better horse but hasnt achieved any more than him!!
he sgonna have to give weight to younger horses next season now!!

shouldve taken his chance in the champion! no excuse for it!

these are all revelant arguments of merit when talking about the 'best ever' and if u dont think so then i cant help u!

frankel beat fook all, and goldikova ran way below her best against immortal verse

frankel's been kept in training to prove his worth as a stallion[;)]

and to the comment frankel didnt run in the middle distance races cos he had horses for them races-

henry cecil did not win the derby,arc, irish champion, king george or eclipse. did he have a place in any of those races? whhy if he had so many horses for these races, they didnt compete in them?[;)]

They weren't scared to run Frankel in the Derby but they thought they had their Derby horse with World Domination and with that one winning his maiden first time up at 1m3f by almost 4L as a 3YO and being out of an Oaks winner Reams Of Verse, then they probably thought he would stay the Derby trip easily enough if good enough and so ran World Domination in the Dante where it went off second favourite but didn't do itself justice probably due to lack of experience.

The Dante was on 12th May, Frankel had run in the 2000 on 30th April and the Derby was on 4th June and probably a bit too late to reschedule Frankel's plans to make him their Derby horse if he hadn't been trained as that and had not run in the Dante itself, which was about the last of the Derby trials after already missing races like the Chester Vase, Dee Stakes, the Lingfield Derby Trial and even the Derrinstown Stud Derby Trial. So the 2000 would effectively have been Frankel's trial and to go straight to the Derby from there is fair enough if it had always been his target but to then try to rush a preparation on the back of a stable mate's flop wouldn't have been ideal if Royal Ascot had been his original target.

Why henry this , why henry that ....

Ffs the horse has won 9/9 , beaten top class group one winners easily and consistantly

I really dont think people realise this horse is doing it all in a excercise gallop , the stamina in this animal is breathtaking , could do another g1 straight after each race its had , plus it learned to seetle ,

WILL NEVER BE BEATEN

wasnt STS beaten once ???

thats the point!!

cecil is more concerned about keeping frankel unbeaten than really testing him!!

lets face it, we already knew he was the best miler ages ago so why keep beating them over a mile when there are better races over further to be won?

It will be a long time before anyhorse repeats what STS did in a season. Maybe over 8 Frankel would have beaten STS but there is no way Frankel will ever win an ARC

Hilarious how obsessed and dogmatic people seem to get whichever side of this debate they're on, when no-one has anything more to go on than guesswork.

Im not obsessed gonzo , im in awe of frankel .

Im totaly dumfounded at the ease which it does it all , they havent got half way into its tank and if it improves even marginally from 3 to 4 the possibilities are mind boggling , henry knows for sure he wont be touched over 1m 2f , but im sure inside himself he thinks 1m4f is the aim , tho he darent say it .

henry har worked wonders with this once headstrong horse , now it settles and does as its told the possibilities are endless

It still always amuses me how people can state as if a matter of fact that there's no way that this that or the other could happen when nobody knows until it's attempted.

John Ox was concerned about Sea The Stars staying the Derby trip due to him being by a miler Cape Cross and so imagine if he had instead gone for all the races Frankel did this season and after the 2000 had been kept at a mile. Wouldn't we have had people stating as if a fact that there's no way STS would ever win an Arc? Cape Cross's sire was Green Desert and that one was basically a sprinter, so these things aren't certain either way about whether horses will or won't stay.

Frankel is by Galileo, a dual Derby and King George winner and sire of multiple other Derby or 12f winners and Galileo's own sire was Saddler's Wells, so Frankel was arguably more likely on the sire's side to stay than STS was.

Another thing is people stating such and such a horses can't be considered a great because it didn't win a Derby or an Arc for example. Well Dancing Brave didn't win a Derby and Generous and Nashwan didn't win an Arc so......and going back to the previous point, Generous won his first race at 5f and his last the King George at 12f, with dual Derby wins at 12f in between.

Pointless waste of time thread.

Both horses are/ were world beaters over different trips.

henry cecil did not win the derby,arc, irish champion, king george or eclipse. did he have a place in any of those races? whhy if he had so many horses for these races, they didnt compete in them?

Cecil/Abdullah won the Judmonte and the Prince had one of the favourites for all those other races.

pity he didnt have frankel in them, we wouldve known if he could handle the test!

Sea the stars better than Frankel he wasn't even the best racehorse in his era, best middle distance colt but not the best horse. Unfortunately his connections knew that as well, thats why he avoided the clash of clashes with the real legend of his era.

^???

whose the real racing legend?

dont say zenyatta....PMSL!

It was unlikely that Khalid Abdullah would run his 2000 Guineas winner against his Derby/Arc winner in the same race and devalue one or the other from a breeding viewpoint. Add to that he also has Midday and Twice Over and there would be very little point in keeping them both in training to then put them up against his other top horses, as they obviously can't all win the same races.

Ballydoyle didn't put Rock of Gibraltar up against High Chaparral either for example and it wouldn't have made financial sense to do so.

Zenyatta was diff gravy but somewon is going to appear in a min and say that Rachel would off destroyed her if Calvin hadn't knocked her back doors off.

yes but surely frankel was the stables superstar, cecil knew this so i dont see why the others should get preference, they should be aiming frankel at the best races , surely had he won the champion instead of the qeII he would be worth far more and he would also gain far more respect form wise as he'd already beaten botti's horse twice previous!!

the qeII was uncompetetive for frankel, atlease he'd have had a test (possibly) in the champion!

Cecil doesn't train Workforce though so he didn't have overall say in that one not running in the Eclipse or the King George.

They were also unlikely to use the Champion Stakes coming so late in the season as a first attempt at 10f. You may just as well ask why didn't they go for the Arc with Frankel as a first attempt at 12f and whilst I would never knock Sea The Stars, bear in mind too that his first attempt at a staying trip was against his own age group and even when he faced older horses for the first time, the best of those was Conduit, a Leger winner and predominately 12f horse dropping back to a trip it had only won at at handicap level. STS then faced mainly other 3YOs and by the time he faced the better older horses in the Arc, he was already battled hardened and proven at the long trips.

Had Cecil intended Frankel to be his Derby horse then you would think he would had run him in the Dante to see how he handles 10f before trying 12f but even then, that was only 12 days after the 2000 Guineas so not really practical.

yes but the champion is a weak g1, ok it wasnt this yr but many take ot up because theyre not good enough for arc or breeders.

i thought he shouldve ran in it anyway, bit of spice to the race and a good test for him.

we knew he'd win the qeII.

Well I thought he should have always been intending to run in the Derby as you only get one chance to do that and if he didn't stay then drop back again to 10f and even the mile if he had to. If he did stay then those other races suddenly all became options for him.

Frankel is a Champion at a mile and there is a pretty good chance he could have been over sprint distances as well. Very surprised if Sea The Stars would have got near him. Yes, Sea The Stars went through the season unbeaten proving his versatility but it was always a case of imagining that he had a good deal more in hand than the winning margin. On a strict interpretation you couldn't possibly rate him that highly. Personally, I would have him well below the greats of the past like Sea Bird and Mill Reef.

Around the derby time frankel was still learning and had headstrong tendancies , would have been poor form for henry to take the risk over a longer trip and ruin the horse ,

His 3yo campaign will be looked back upon as breathtaking and unlike STS will race on as a 4 yo , at increased distances against all ages ,

at the end of next season god willing he keeps sound he will be classed as the best ever , henry has campagned this horse to perfection and i believe in any other trainers hands would have been ruined at middle distance this year

IMHO go back to pre-Derby,months before,molerat told you he would not run in the Derby.

Some did not listen?[smiley:crazy][smiley:crazy]

You were told where he would go and what he would do NEXT YEAR.[;)]

As for him V STS,no contest yet on achievement,Brigust et al have yet to give a reasonable case for Dancing Brave being better than STS.

HTH [;)][smiley:crazy]

Dansingh Brave not Bray,that was a donkey.Dansingh is PC.hth[;)]

I see people are still judging Frankel's whole at that time racing career after the 2000 Guineas based on that one run then? How many times did the horse make all the running before that day? From memory I don't think he ever hit the front in any of the others before that until around the 3f pole and it's not even as if he threw his head around and was pulling hard in the 2000, he did it easily and so easily that his pacemaker couldn't get to the front.

He was drawn farthest apart from his pacemaker in stall 1 with the pacemaker in 13 so if he was going to try to tact in behind he was going to have to get out fast to be able to see where the other horse was and possibly have to edge towards it too, which meant getting near the front. Once the pacemaker can't get to the front and Frankel's already there after a furlong and clear after not much more, what was Queally supposed to do, take a pull and rein the horse back and forfeit any lead he had gained or to let the horse just ignore the pacemaker and stride on?

I think knowing the end result that he might the right decision so had they chosen to go for the Derby, it's a misconception that they had a hard pulling horse as that clearly wasn't the case. There would have been others certain to set a reasonable pace in the race and I very much doubt Frankel would have tried to make all the running at Epsom, considering he had never done so before until the guineas.