This is only the start though, Jumps racing WILL imo be gone within around ten years time(public perception again) these days it would take one really bad incident at Aintree or a really bad festival

Running is natural to a horse. I don't deem sitting on them while they run inhumane.

I don't think horses will run to the point of exhaustion w/o the whip.
They'll refuse at fences. The well-being of the horse will come to the fore.
Trainers who send unfit horses to the track will see their horses stop
It'll teach 'em to get 'em fit for the track
A good thing for the punter?

John Francome agrees that the whip could be banned w/o the sport suffering.
Hopefully that'll put an end to 'have you ridden a horse' arguments.
Francome being one of the finest jocks ever.
Tip, I heard someone say that its the sound of the whip hitting flesh that cajoles
more effort out of the horse.
Why not get the jockey clacking some castanets in the horse's earhole?

The problem with the horses on the beach argument is it hypothesises two imaginary animals running in a vacuum. The real world fact of the matter is that horses have been bred, for hundreds of years, to run their fastest/to give maximum effort in response to strokes of the whip. The whip has been a part of racing for centuries and horses that ran quicker when struck were more successful in races, and were thus selected to breed. I realise not all horses respond well to the whip, some perform better when not hit, but plenty do.

Of course we would still get race results if the whip disappeared, but the results would be different and I dare say race times would be a shade slower. Remember this is a sport not a walk in the park with your pet dog. These animals have been bred and exist to race and to perform, to provide a spectacle and to show what is possible when man and beast act in tandem at the highest level, putting their bodies on the line to win races. The whip has always been a key part of achieving great sporting feats and to do away with it would cheapen the sport. Yeah we would still get results but we would have lost a level of performance.

Saying that lazy horses would win less and genuine horses would win more is a red herring. It's too simplistic a distinction. It's disrespectful to label a horse lazy that needs the physical stimulus of a whip to tell him when to run his heart out.

g_10 Spot on

The definitive ? i don't think so.

Why is the whip being restricted - because those who love horses,work with horses,enjoy being around it want i banned - NO.

Because the British Public are waking up thinking , never mind the traffic i wish the whip was banned - No

Its being restricted because the BHA is pandering to a small vociferous minority who ultimately believe all racing should be banned and even Dog owning should be outlawed.

Horse are livestock,and Racehorses have the best life of any livestock in the uk,far far better than the life of a cow,pig,sheep,etc.They are looked after generally in 5 star animal welfare and for half a dozen times a year they may have a few seconds when a foam based whip is used to encourage them to do their best.

Now we hear those pandering to a percieved public opinion with regard to whips.Lets make it clear if we had no whip there would be far greater suffering amongst the equine population than if we keep it.Every dodgepot would be worthless and instead of a few mins of being encouraged to run would be packed of for slaughter.

Punting would be devasted - no whips!, the number of non triers or percieved non triers would be enormous - nobody would have faith that anybody was trying, i and many other punters would stop betting,the levy would fall even further - prize money would fall of a cliff and more horses would be sent to slaughter.

A horse is encouraged to run to its best on occasions,just like an athletics coach shouts at an athlete or a sgt maj at a cadet,its not done out of cruelty,its done to get the best out of them.

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An interesting and, for those of us who actually like horseracing, perhaps a crucial subject. Judging by what I found out from organised and vociferous opponents of racing ( on supposed grounds of "cruelty"), I think there will be one of several survival issues for the game.
On the train travelling from a meeting at Newbury or some place, a woman got on and started to tell me about horses.[:o] Maybe I look the type or something.
Anyway, I listenened away and it seems the only working animal that they are prepared to accept is the guide dog for the blind. That's pretty extreme, imo. My game, involving the cart, is definitely out, as is the brewery dray horse, the plough horse, the police horse, the kid's pony etc etc!, in their opinion.

OK, I hadn't realised how extreme was their standpoint. At present, it seems they're going flat out against dog racing ( we'll be next, I guess). The point is that we need to be careful that we don't play into their hands, which, sadly is what often happens in dog racing. It's easy for them to find and photograph dossers who get paid a tenner for slashing a dog's throat and then burning up the carcase out on some hill or wasteland. Half the time there is carelessness and poor disposal, which lets these people find the charred carcase. pretty sloppy, imo.
Anyway, the point of all this is to show that there is a strong and organised "opposition" to racing. It won't just go away, imo.

Finally, I'd have to confirm what Silvergreaser said: there is, imo, a lot of cruelty in the yards. Not as bad as with the dogs, but it would be silly to deny it.
Where this leaves us regarding the whip issue, I'm not sure, but we need to get things right or we'll all be fkd.
Personally, I can't help thinking that there may be a weakness on the breeding and pedigree side of things. Other work horses  - standardbreds and the like - are nowhere near as tender and nervy as thorobreds, imo. Maybe it's the result of nurture and training, or, maybe, we have bred some problematic nambypamby primadonnas?

Little interest in this debate as it never revolves around principal point that racing is about getting horses to run as fast as they can in a given direction, end of story.

So you'd be in favour of spurs yer ma. Presumably g_10 would be as well or has he adapted to the new form lines and the slower times since they were banned? Then we've got zebadei who's worried about all the lazy horses that will be shipped off to slaughter although I've never seen him post regarding all the non-lazy horses that are shipped off to slaughter. Oh wait, he's also worried that all the punters who are totally apathetic regarding whip abuse stopping betting because of their concern about non-whip abuse. WITF are you traditionalists doing on a betting exchange? Shouldn't you be out hunting foxes?

The premise that no whip will lead to non-triers galore is baseless. They'll stick out even more with their birdy song impressions.

Great post Feck  10.11

zebadei, dont agree with you.

BHA is pandering to a small vociferous minority who ultimately believe all racing should be banned

there are a lot more people with this view than you may think, the sport we love is doomed, this move by the bha may prolong its demise, but in 10 years i suspect joe public will have turned on us, as happened to hunting, **** fighting, bear baiting, etc.

Please feel free to argue your case

That's exactly what I'm doing zebadei. I don't see how any of my posts qualify as "hissy style fits" if yours doesn't.

Why go down species zebadei? I'm sure there are children in the world **** treated worse than some of our horses. Surely that doesn't mean we have to cure all the bigger ills of the world before we're allowed to address this one? We've heard your argument before from the countryside alliance. Wasn't the fox hunting ban going to be Armageddon for all foxhounds and the NH game itself? We're still waiting.

**** = who are

Feck don't put me on one side or the other, you don't know me.
What I do belive is that the playing field should be level. And it isn't. You can interpret that any way you wish but obviously the BHA accept the whip is necessary otherwise they would have trialed without it, not this ridiculous cheater's charter.
You can shout as much as you like but wait until you are on the receiving end a few times.
At Windsor yesterday Tom Queally was beaten in a three way photograph for 3rd. He was extremely minimal with his whip for obvious reasos and finished 4th. Neither you nor I now whether that is his true form. How on this earth can that be good for racing?

brigust, the BHA's mistake was not in pandering to non-racing people, it was in pandering to racing people. That's why we've ended up with this 5 lash fudge instead of a total ban. I have a lot of sympathy with what you're saying but nothing's changed that much. I was sick of seeing my bet being beaten a nose by a heavily gambled horse that had the life thrashed out of it. I think they should have both been lashed the same number of times. The only way to achieve that is to make the rule zero lashes?

Exactly feck,so what the bha should do is stop pandering to a non racing viewpoint on the whip ,fuelled often by those wishing to ingratiate themselves with the public, but rather educate the public.

They should say yes a horse maybe encouraged for less than a few mins,half a dozen times a year,but this is the lifestyle it enjoys the rest of the time. They should compare it to the life of pinky and perky being served up at the hog roast stall,or larry the lamb chopped up early for the plate.


If anybody thinks there is cruelty in the use of the whip,well come on surely there are much more worthy causes - or is it just that for this minority animal rights group racing is an easy target.

I don't think its about traditionalists ,its about common sense,and if you think the integrity of racing is poor now with the whip,without it ,i imagine it would be a laughing stock.

lol feck - its established i'm not a fan of racing on the sand.

zebadei 11 Oct 11 11:08 

If you had a survey asking who is best placed to judge the welfare of horses,grooms,trainers,jockeys,etc or a minority animal rights propaganda group who'd have the bacon out of your roll your chicken out of the oven and no dogs allowed for ownership - theyd obviously say the former.

You seem to think that all those involved in 'racing' are part of the pro whip brigade.....

"I think more horses are whipped out of the money than into it." - Legendary American jockey Willie Shoemaker

"On the Flat you used to see idiot jockeys knocking the daylights out of their horses. It made me wince. I would do anything to avoid whipping a horse." - Former royal jockey Bill Smith

"I love horses and I hate hitting them. I reckon that if you hit a horse twice then next time you will have to hit him three times and so on. It's a vicious circle. I won 23 races on Dorlesa and I never had to hit her once." - Michael Dickinson, former jockey turned Cheltenham Gold Cup winning trainer, now based in the United States