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roggrain
Have you not read the launch publicity? McCoy and Dettori, the two biggest names in the game, support the new rules. |
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gman500 - Absolutely spot on! - on all counts.
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McCoy & Dettori don't give a toss, only have a couple of years left in the sport in all probability.
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I blame the pro-whip w@nkers for this 5 strike fudge. If it wasn't for you traditionalists (by fk is this game full of people averse to change or what) we'd have a complete ban.
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---IF, whips are "essential" for steering purposes, rather than being "persuaders",( horrible term ), why don't they just make 'em about 15 inches long instead of dominatrix size ?, (couldn't reach the hosses backside)-----also, if I was planning a real betting coup now, I would be looking for a jockey who would "take the ban", for a percentage of winnings------all weather beckons, should be fun !
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S&C
What are you talking about? These guys support the new rules - they said so at the time they were announced. To suggest that they don't support the rules is tantamount to calling them liars imo. |
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Jockeys carrying whips only to be used in emergencies to take corrective action, would seem to be the next logical step...
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GG
They support them, but in all likelihood won't affect them for so much time, so why would they be that bothered about the rules compared to some? |
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Feck N Eejit. Have you ever sat on the back of a precocious three year old travelling at nearly 40 m.p.h in amongst a pack of horses?
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Gerry do you really think Dettori has a BA in Public Relationsspeak ?
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dont change what isnt broken to cater for people who might become interested in racing
fecking joke sport imo |
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interesting how you all decide you,d use a jockey who,d give a horse a beating if you were planning a coup,yet theres plenty of jocks get the best out of a horse with hands and heels riding,plus the likes of mcoy say the whips are that light they make little difference,if a horse aint going for 5 ,he aint going for 6
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If a horse was disq from winning after the jockey broke the rules,then what happens if 2 0r 3 jockeys are in a driving finish and they all used their allocated hits then the 3RD OR EVEN 4th horse would be promoted winner
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roggrain, if it's that dangerous they shouldn't have hands'n'heels races for inexperienced apprentices. Whether I've sat on a horse is irrelevant. I don't ask jockeys if they've ever lost 30K because the were beaten in a photo by a thrashed home gamble.
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Sensible reply Stakey,the only problem would be the moronic stewards interpretation.
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SS
No - of course not. People are quite rightly castigating the BHA for not thinking this through. A pity then they don't castigate our most senior jockeys for the same reasons. In many respects, Dettori and McCoy's apparent support makes it more difficult for the BHA to do anything other than plough on with their unworkable (imo) new rules. The correct thing to do however, is to ban the whip altogether. |
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maybe gerry, could be the whole point of the new rules in the long run
the very people who would initially be up in arms about losing the whip will now be the first in line asking for it to be banned |
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Would you be prepared to accept responsibilty for the serious injury or worse to a jockey Gerry because an avoidable accident occurred because a wayward horse caused one?
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Feck, this whole debate has become one of politics. You are all for a ban. Fair enough, it's then a level playing field. But what about the claimers who depend on the whip to steer/get a beast home? (and rightly or wrongly, some do)
Can you honestly say your bank balance would be the same if there had never been any whips? |
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elise - the thought that the BHA had engineered what you suggest is too much of a stretch! Unwittingly though, that could well happen.
Scots - I accept responsibility for that if you also accept responsibility for a horse, veering away from its rider's whip, causing an avoidable accident. |
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Evolution and blood lines suggest that the fittest survive, the best horses in the past have responded to the whip in different ways and have lived to tell the tale and continue to pass on their genes.
In such they have evolved over hundreds of years to deal with being struck with the whip. Why now should this change in a sport that has been going for hundreds of years? It is Bureaucracy gone mad... Even the Scientist who have done tests say that the horses barely feel any pain from it. It is hitting them in an area which has very little sensitivity. Like a smack on the bottom with a large elastic band for a human. It will sting for a little, may make you jump but will soon be forgotten. |
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aye gerry, they are probably not that bright, however, they now have unwittingly hit on the way to get it if they want it, jockeys wallets
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gman500
Soon forgotten? Why do so many trainers insist that their 2yos are NOT hit with the whip on their first or second outings then? The fact is that the whip causes pain. |
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Why do so many trainers insist that their 2yos are NOT hit with the whip on their first or second outings then
Mainly to get a low handicap mark so they can punt them off the boards when the time comes. HTH |
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_Scotboyass_ the whip would still be available for correction, even in the event of a ban
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gman500
Doesn't help at all! The trainers who usually insist that their 2yos are not smacked first time up are the likes of Cecil, Stoute, O'Brien - trainers who generally don't have runners in nurseries. |
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Doesn't help at all! The trainers who usually insist that their 2yos are not smacked first time up are the likes of Cecil, Stoute, O'Brien - trainers who generally don't have runners in nurseries.
Have you ever thought that these are the trainers that have the expensive horses that will make the classic generation? They are not bred to be 2yos and so as such there is no point in pushing them hard in there first few races. Like an athlete training for the Olympics they will not go full pelt in the heats because they do not want to risk injury for the main event. The harder you push the more likely injury. HTH again |
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Can you honestly say your bank balance would be the same if there had never been any whips?
No stewarty. It would be bigger. |
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gman500
No - still no help. We're not talking about "pushing them hard" here; we're talking about giving them a smack with the whip - something that the bigger trainers won't have at all. Have you ever heard a jockey say post race: "If I'd given him / her a smack they'd have won?" The reason they don't smack 'em is that the horse remembers the pain and some (not all) won't run for it again. |
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Gerry Gallbladder
10 Oct 11 19:58 Joined: 22 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 2,434 | Blogger: Gerry Gallbladder's blog gman500 Doesn't help at all! The trainers who usually insist that their 2yos are not smacked first time up are the likes of Cecil, Stoute, O'Brien - trainers who generally don't have runners in nurseries. GG, you could add Godolphin, Gosden etc. But I'm punting to make money, not to defend a few 'love taps' as Gary Stevens once famously said. If the whip doesn't work to an extent, ban it. End of. But if you polled all the wise trainers and jockeys, they'd have a right laugh at that suggestion. (nap) |
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GG your argument is completely flawed....whipping a horse pushes it harder than just a hands and heels ride.... pushing a fragile 2yo is pointless when win or lose the horse will learn much more from the racecourse experience than being tired out and pushing its body to the limit. There is very little point to win a small maiden rather than a listed or group race at 3yos
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Feck N. Eejit
Feck N. Eejit 10 Oct 11 20:05 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 5,398 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog Can you honestly say your bank balance would be the same if there had never been any whips? No stewarty. It would be bigger. Fair enough Feck, but for someone, (like myself) who detests non-triers, I have to disagree with you on this matter. |
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If you had to trust someones judgement regarding the whip and it use would you trust Feck or say Ginger McCain?
No contest imo,Ginger hands down. |
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Scots
Who would you trust more - Ginger McCain or Willie Shoemaker and Michael Dickinson? "I think more horses are whipped out of the money than into it." - Legendary American jockey Willie Shoemaker I love horses and I hate hitting them. I reckon that if you hit a horse twice then next time you will have to hit him three times and so on. It's a vicious circle. I won 23 races on Dorlesa and I never had to hit her once." - Michael Dickinson, former jockey turned Cheltenham Gold Cup winning trainer, now based in the United States |
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_Scotboyass_ 10 Oct 11 19:47
Would you be prepared to accept responsibilty for the serious injury or worse to a jockey Gerry because an avoidable accident occurred because a wayward horse caused one? ---------------------------------- Swardean 10 Oct 11 19:56 _Scotboyass_ the whip would still be available for correction, even in the event of a ban ---------------------------------- Would it? This is what HUGHES said - after today's ban ... "They said you aren't allowed to use your stick as correction and I was under the impression you were allowed to do that. If I let him bump the other horse, I'd have got two days. I feel a bit hard done by as I thought it was a corrective measure and nothing else, but they said six is six." |
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onlooker, you can hit for correction, but if your hand is off the rein then it counts as a strike as per any backhand strike in a finish corrective or not
a tap down the neck with hands on the reins wouldn't have counted in hughes total strikes that's my understanding and i think rh believes his corrective hit should not have counted and that he'd be ok with the stewards, i don't think he did it in with intent, he was probably just reaacting as he normally would and fell foul of the new law he had a huge W on his hand, he's obv thinking about it, to pick him up on day one for a corrective strike i thought was harsh but as he said, they called it 6 hits inside the last furlong and hung him out to dry |
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it may make some of them drop their stirrups a couple of notches and make them use their legs a bit more,
i cant believe the extent that more and more are riding shorter and shorter, it only means the whip is used more to get them going forward. it may also result in less unseateds i think it should be given a chance .nobody wants to see them being flayed unless you have sado masochistic tendencies or 5 grand on it. |
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perhaps andy thornton can be used as a role model
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Ginger never advocated thrashing horses,I used the analogy purely as a measure of trusting someone with many years experience as opposed to an anti.
The modern whip was instigated by Peter Scudamore who was a brutal user of the old stick,now he is contradicting all he said years ago. I remember a horse called Bottles who was soured by being whipped with the old stick.Won a 3 horse race at about 2/5 after being beaten hellishly with the whip.The jockey said he had to do it or he wouldnt have won and he would probably have been lynched. The point is that there are more than just two schools of thought as to whether a horse will run faster or just keep going rather than down tools. Recently a respected veterinary scientist stated that the whips in use today did not hurt a horse,he based this on sound and in depth research. Contrarily Bottles jockey was insistent the horse would have downed tools if he hadnt been hit. Imo whether a horse will run faster is pure conjecture,whether it will respond by carrying on is far more convincing.Scudamore of all people should be aware of that. In the days before the present model of whip was used there were frequent bannings for marking horses,today that is almost unheard of.Surely the BHA should have had at least a year of research involving people like the vet,the type of jockey that rode Bottles,todays jockeys and Scudamore. Then analysed all the opinions,facts and data before caving in to the PC unwashed brigade who are probably in Dale Farm at this very minute planning the next cause? Btw i do not advocate hurting horses purely for gain,however the whip is an essential aid imo. |
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An essential aid to what scotboyass? You do realise there would still be a result without one?
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