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Surely this must be the best bet of the day.
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spencer rode a blinder there, these yanks are gonna win feck all on the turf
Cape Blanco got the full treatment from Spencer there. Never seen such aggression from Spencer.
Spencer went for home very early on didn't he?
Lucky to hold on but Spencer lifted him over the line with generous use of the whip.
Lucky to hold on but Spencer lifted him over the line with generous use of the whip.
if we dont have summit that can beat that after this race i will be very surprised
That will be the diff in the new rules. Get it home no matter what!
the horse wasnt gpoing that well, this is jamie "hold em up until the end of time" spencer we are talking about, he had feck all choice
spencer teaching yank jocks how to ride, some things never change
frank spencer critics quiet. Brought home the bacon there. not pretty though.
First to critisie Spencer but that was a top ride. Waiting on Uncle Mo and Havre De Grace for a nice yankee.
teaching the yank jocks how to hit your horse harder with the whip, when it comes to actual horsemanship the yanks are in a different league.
He has always been aggressive to this horse since they went to America. He has got hard races all the time but this horse is TUFF like Tiznow now. Credit to Spencer he has rode some great races just not a fan of the whip use myself. What a legend of a horse he has become tho
a lot more riding on that than the purse, they have their eyes set VERY high
All you anti-whip people out there. Tell me Cape Blanco still wins without the whip. A brilliant, galvanizing finish by Spencer. This is what the BHA has denied us true racing fans from Oct. 10th on. Is Cape Blanco crying, is he collapsing from exhaustion? Of course not.Spencer asked him not to stop and he didn't.
If he had held on for another furlong he wouldn't have had to work so hard.
I m going to be bang against that winner next time, its had a few hard races and hes cut it in two to win tonite, tough oss mind
No,hippie, if he had waited longer he wouldn't have been able to quicken away entering the stretch.
If they went another 10 yards that ferocious beating would have been for nothing, the american Turf horses would struggle in group 3's over here which explains how a plodder like Cape Blanco can win 3 grade one's in a row.
horsemanship and clocks in heads are great, but ive never seen an american jock outride a british jock. they flap like wet lettuces.
at the end of the day its about winning, spencer not wanting to go to america and back for nothin. change jock, change result
at the end of the day its about winning, spencer not wanting to go to america and back for nothin. change jock, change result
But they didn't go another 10 yards. The timing was perfect.
I agree Hippie, thought he went after the lead before he needed to.
As for the horse, I think he'll get found out again over 12f in proper G1 company. Lucky today that Winchester ran below par.
I'd avoid the BC Turf with CB unless it cuts up badly and look for another G1 over 10f. Hong Kong possibly.
As for the horse, I think he'll get found out again over 12f in proper G1 company. Lucky today that Winchester ran below par.
I'd avoid the BC Turf with CB unless it cuts up badly and look for another G1 over 10f. Hong Kong possibly.
revedesivola Joined: 14 Sep 10
Replies: 11281 01 Oct 11 20:37
horsemanship and clocks in heads are great, but ive never seen an american jock outride a british jock. they flap like wet lettuces.
Steve Cauthen, Cash Asmussen, Jerry Bailey
Replies: 11281 01 Oct 11 20:37
horsemanship and clocks in heads are great, but ive never seen an american jock outride a british jock. they flap like wet lettuces.
Steve Cauthen, Cash Asmussen, Jerry Bailey
No chance in Hong Kong the racing over there is actually competitive.
i wasnt around when those lads were around. they must have ridden like our jocks as opposed to riding with emphasis on fractions?
If they went another 10 yards that ferocious beating would have been for nothing, the american Turf horses would struggle in group 3's over here which explains how a plodder like Cape Blanco can win 3 grade one's in a row.
Let's be fair here. The horse is an Irish Derby and Irish Champion Stakes winner.
He mightn't be the best that there is in Europe but there's not many better.
A bit of perspective Silvergreaser, you appear to over-exaggerate a lot of things in your posts in the hope that you sound funny or clever.
Let's be fair here. The horse is an Irish Derby and Irish Champion Stakes winner.
He mightn't be the best that there is in Europe but there's not many better.
A bit of perspective Silvergreaser, you appear to over-exaggerate a lot of things in your posts in the hope that you sound funny or clever.
I'm not talking like that at all.
I'm talking about America's 10 furlong champion that could have held on for another furlong and come home hands and heels.
I'm talking about America's 10 furlong champion that could have held on for another furlong and come home hands and heels.
I don't think he could Hippie. Good ride for me to get the job done, but I do worry about the horse for any races in the forseeable. If Spencer had waited even another 1/2 furlong I think he would never have pegged bck the eventual second.
Main point here is that Cape Blanco won on ground that wasn't anywhere near ideal.
Main point here is that Cape Blanco won on ground that wasn't anywhere near ideal.
No chance in Hong Kong the racing over there is actually competitive.
No chance you reckon?
How does Cape Blanco rank against the likes of Ramonti, Vengeance of Rain, Pride and Eagle Mountain.
Doubt he'd have no chance SG but once again, you use strong words to make yourself sound clever.
No chance you reckon?
How does Cape Blanco rank against the likes of Ramonti, Vengeance of Rain, Pride and Eagle Mountain.
Doubt he'd have no chance SG but once again, you use strong words to make yourself sound clever.
Good point SYT.
Cape Blanco has won £2.6m in prize money, not bad going for a plodder.
Cape Blanco has won £2.6m in prize money, not bad going for a plodder.
who cares about the foreseeable? He's done it all and can now retire to stud.
It looked to me like Spencer wanted to be in front of the lead horse coming around the far bend and expended more energy than was necessary.
It looked to me like Spencer wanted to be in front of the lead horse coming around the far bend and expended more energy than was necessary.
Revedesilva. Great ride by Spencer but that doesn't mean American jockeys are no good. American turf horses (due to the breeding emphasis on speed/dirt) can't compete with Euro's. That doesn't mean the jockeys can't. Steve Cauthen wasn't bad, was he? Jerry Bailey came over here and racked up a 25% strike rate (equal to Frankie that year).How can you denigrate riders like Solis, Valesquez,Nakatani,Valenzuala,Gomez,Garcia,Flores,etc.etc.?
Ballydoyle might care if they have another race in mind.
Cape Blanco didn't seem to be going too well in my opinion and JS decided that he needed to do something if he was to win the race.
Cape Blanco didn't seem to be going too well in my opinion and JS decided that he needed to do something if he was to win the race.
i think spencer makes his move so early because cape blanco hasnt got the best turn of foot ever, especially in conditions like that!
To be honest coolmore think they are taking on easy targets. It`s job done now move on. Throw it into 1 of the big races no harm done. (If no success)
Canadian International over 12f in two weeks could be a possibility too?
Usually dosen't attract a stellar field, and if CB was recovered in time, he might get away with the extra distance in that kind of company again.
Aidan has won it before too.
Usually dosen't attract a stellar field, and if CB was recovered in time, he might get away with the extra distance in that kind of company again.
Aidan has won it before too.
For some reason for having an opinion I'm been accused at trying to be clever?
Right lets look at Cape Blanco in perspective, I've never really rated this horse and it seems connections are not overly pushed about running the horse against the best in Europe which is why they targetted weakly contested Grade ones in America and Canada?.
Yes the horse won an Irish Derby by 3/4L from Midas Touch, the Arc runs of both these horse proved what a piss poor race that Irish Derby was, they were both tailed off.
His Irish Champion win looked good at the time but was RVW been prepped for the QEII?, but nothing he's done since has come anywhere close, his last run on these shores was another tailed off run, beaten a huge 16L in the Queen Anne, ok a trip maybe short of his best but was beaten out of sight.
Ok plodder might have been a bit of an exagerration but this horse is no superstar and connections have done particulary well to boost this way overrated horses stud profile.
Please soyouthink don't give me he beat Workforce in the Dante and King George as they don't count.
Right lets look at Cape Blanco in perspective, I've never really rated this horse and it seems connections are not overly pushed about running the horse against the best in Europe which is why they targetted weakly contested Grade ones in America and Canada?.
Yes the horse won an Irish Derby by 3/4L from Midas Touch, the Arc runs of both these horse proved what a piss poor race that Irish Derby was, they were both tailed off.
His Irish Champion win looked good at the time but was RVW been prepped for the QEII?, but nothing he's done since has come anywhere close, his last run on these shores was another tailed off run, beaten a huge 16L in the Queen Anne, ok a trip maybe short of his best but was beaten out of sight.
Ok plodder might have been a bit of an exagerration but this horse is no superstar and connections have done particulary well to boost this way overrated horses stud profile.
Please soyouthink don't give me he beat Workforce in the Dante and King George as they don't count.
great credit has to go to coolmore and aidan, hes doing well to mop up g1s
You have complex criteria as regards what form "counts" and what dosen't SG. I'd nearly guess what counts is what suits your argument best, and what dosen't, dosen't.
Cape Blanco is a very good horse. Not many 3yos win an Irish Derby and an Irish Champions Stakes in the one season. Regardless of how strong/weak races these are, it's a unique double.
It's also quite unusual that a European trained racehorse is able make a transatlantic flight three times in the space of two months and come away victorious (in Group Ones) each and every time. Open to correction but I don't think it's ever been done before.
Some other points in your post. Coolmore have other horses for older races in Europe. Think it was inevitable that something would globetrote and it was obviously CB from an early stage in the season. No indication that connections don't think he's good.
You dismiss the horse's chances in Hong Kong. I find that very foolish. A good punter surely realises how unpredictable horse racing is but to dismiss a horse who's just three G1s on the trot is poor punting. Others might say you dismiss him because of who he's trained by. Either way, CB is around the level of all previous HK Cup winners, and only an idiot would rule out the possibility of him winning again.
Cape Blanco is a very good horse. Not many 3yos win an Irish Derby and an Irish Champions Stakes in the one season. Regardless of how strong/weak races these are, it's a unique double.
It's also quite unusual that a European trained racehorse is able make a transatlantic flight three times in the space of two months and come away victorious (in Group Ones) each and every time. Open to correction but I don't think it's ever been done before.
Some other points in your post. Coolmore have other horses for older races in Europe. Think it was inevitable that something would globetrote and it was obviously CB from an early stage in the season. No indication that connections don't think he's good.
You dismiss the horse's chances in Hong Kong. I find that very foolish. A good punter surely realises how unpredictable horse racing is but to dismiss a horse who's just three G1s on the trot is poor punting. Others might say you dismiss him because of who he's trained by. Either way, CB is around the level of all previous HK Cup winners, and only an idiot would rule out the possibility of him winning again.
Don't know Rev. I didn't think there were any more 1m 2f races Stateside but Clement L. Hirsch Stakes
Options is tomorrow I think. But that's it.
Other turf options in North America look to be BC Turf or Canadian International? Both over 1m 4f.
I'd be more confident of Cape Blanco's chances back over 1m 2f distance which would make a race like HK Cup a possibility in my opinion.
Options is tomorrow I think. But that's it.
Other turf options in North America look to be BC Turf or Canadian International? Both over 1m 4f.
I'd be more confident of Cape Blanco's chances back over 1m 2f distance which would make a race like HK Cup a possibility in my opinion.
Well soyouthink I wouldn't back him with stolen money if he contests another Group one race this side of the atlantic or on the shores of the Indian ocean, and thats not been smart.
I'm accused of tunnel vision for ignoring the horses achievements, I haven't ignored them I've dissected them and put them all into perspective, when this horse has met the cream of Europe he's been found wanting nearly everytime.
They ran the horse in the French Derby rather than Epsom where he was also beaten out of sight, that Irish Derby was one of the worst contested in living memory.
I harbour suspicions as to the authenticity of his Irish Champion victory, the Arc showed the horse up for what he is a very lucky horse indeed to have connections who are so dominant they can afford to play around and boost various individual horses profiles by avoiding almost certain defeat by contesting mickey mouse races that would barely qualify as Group 3 races this side of the Atlantic.
Maybe soyouthink you yourself might be inflicted with tunnel vision?.
I'm accused of tunnel vision for ignoring the horses achievements, I haven't ignored them I've dissected them and put them all into perspective, when this horse has met the cream of Europe he's been found wanting nearly everytime.
They ran the horse in the French Derby rather than Epsom where he was also beaten out of sight, that Irish Derby was one of the worst contested in living memory.
I harbour suspicions as to the authenticity of his Irish Champion victory, the Arc showed the horse up for what he is a very lucky horse indeed to have connections who are so dominant they can afford to play around and boost various individual horses profiles by avoiding almost certain defeat by contesting mickey mouse races that would barely qualify as Group 3 races this side of the Atlantic.
Maybe soyouthink you yourself might be inflicted with tunnel vision?.
2000 Fantastic Light
2001 Agnes Digital
2002 Precision
2003 Falbrav
2004 Alexander Goldrun
2005 Vengeance of Rain
2006 Pride
2007 Ramonti
2008 Eagle Mountain
2009 Vision d'Etat
2010 Snow Fairy
The winners of the Hong Kong Cup since the turn of the century, I know for a fact nearly everyone of them would have had Cape Blanco for breakfast.
Did someone knock "Pride" earlier on this thread?, a superb mare who would be on another planet to Cape Blanco.
2001 Agnes Digital
2002 Precision
2003 Falbrav
2004 Alexander Goldrun
2005 Vengeance of Rain
2006 Pride
2007 Ramonti
2008 Eagle Mountain
2009 Vision d'Etat
2010 Snow Fairy
The winners of the Hong Kong Cup since the turn of the century, I know for a fact nearly everyone of them would have had Cape Blanco for breakfast.
Did someone knock "Pride" earlier on this thread?, a superb mare who would be on another planet to Cape Blanco.
The horse has done well taking on easy targets. Surely SYT you cant think it cant be nearly top class. If it gets anywhere any top guns it will be blown away.
You're the one who called him a plodder, said he'd have no chance in a HK Cup, reckon he's overrated and that you won't ever back him.
It's not tunnel vision, I was just taking exception to those comments.
You can keep dissecting the form of his races but he's now won five Group/Grade Ones. That includes three Grade Ones in his last three races, of which your form dissection amounts to "American races would not pass as G3s in Europe". That's fairly thorough research all right.
Keep making excuses for the races he wins, and keep emphasising the one two races he's underperformed in (French Derby and Arc).
It matters little to me what you think. But it's a forum and some of your comments I, and I'm sure others would disagree with. But you have done this before in relation to APOB horses.
It's not tunnel vision, I was just taking exception to those comments.
You can keep dissecting the form of his races but he's now won five Group/Grade Ones. That includes three Grade Ones in his last three races, of which your form dissection amounts to "American races would not pass as G3s in Europe". That's fairly thorough research all right.
Keep making excuses for the races he wins, and keep emphasising the one two races he's underperformed in (French Derby and Arc).
It matters little to me what you think. But it's a forum and some of your comments I, and I'm sure others would disagree with. But you have done this before in relation to APOB horses.
The winners of the Hong Kong Cup since the turn of the century, I know for a fact nearly everyone of them would have had Cape Blanco for breakfast.
You are now posting nonsense, and I have no ambition to debate with someone clearly blinded by a hatred of all things Ballydoyle.
Know for a fact,
You are now posting nonsense, and I have no ambition to debate with someone clearly blinded by a hatred of all things Ballydoyle.
Know for a fact,
Soyouthink I'm not on my own with how Coolmore now currently operate, I use to be a great believer in all things Aiden over the first 7 or 8 years of his tenure, but ever since those Smiths have got involved they've become one of the most untrustworthy and unpredictable mobs in racing, when group races almost become a no go area, its time to take a back step and say to yourself what am I doing here?.
That said its nothing got to do with what I think of Cape Blanco, if I think a Coolmore animal is good enough I never hestitate, doesn't mean I have to love them?.
That said its nothing got to do with what I think of Cape Blanco, if I think a Coolmore animal is good enough I never hestitate, doesn't mean I have to love them?.
I don't really know why I should be but I'm actually embarrassed for the person calling Cape Blanco a plodder and the fact that they are willing to do so on a public forum too!
Cape Blanco is the best horse in O'Brien's yard and they are finally starting to realise it themselves now, instead of the horse having to accommodate others like Rip van Winkle last season and be messed about in distances so as to accommodate those others, with So You Think being the latest this season. Cape Blanco would also have a better chance than So You Think and St Nicholas Abbey in the Arc too in my opinion and would have easily have been up to winning any of the races those two horses have won this season, but they clearly didn't want their own beating their own or for Cape Blanco to burst SYT's bubble.
I only wish I owned a "plodder" that has won a Dante, an Irish Derby, an Irish Champion Stakes, a Man O'War Stakes, an Arlington Million and the this latest race, as well as a 2nd in a King George behind probably the best performance ever in that race from any winner. You can't expect an Irish Derby winner to the drop back to a mile and race against the likes of Canford Cliffs and Goldikova and that's what Ballydoyle previously asked Cape Blanco to do.
Cape Blanco is the best horse in O'Brien's yard and they are finally starting to realise it themselves now, instead of the horse having to accommodate others like Rip van Winkle last season and be messed about in distances so as to accommodate those others, with So You Think being the latest this season. Cape Blanco would also have a better chance than So You Think and St Nicholas Abbey in the Arc too in my opinion and would have easily have been up to winning any of the races those two horses have won this season, but they clearly didn't want their own beating their own or for Cape Blanco to burst SYT's bubble.
I only wish I owned a "plodder" that has won a Dante, an Irish Derby, an Irish Champion Stakes, a Man O'War Stakes, an Arlington Million and the this latest race, as well as a 2nd in a King George behind probably the best performance ever in that race from any winner. You can't expect an Irish Derby winner to the drop back to a mile and race against the likes of Canford Cliffs and Goldikova and that's what Ballydoyle previously asked Cape Blanco to do.
Of course beaten 20L in the Arc had nothing to do with it?, and running him in the French rather than English Derby would suggest they know better than you that he was no English Derby winner?
Cape Blanco rated 126 in 2010.
Snow Fairy rated 120 in 2010.
Vision D'etat rated 123 in 2009.
Eagle Mountain rated 122 in 2008.
Ramonti rated 123 in 2007.
Pride rated 123 in 2006.
Vengeance of Rain rated 122 in 2005.
Alexander Goldrun rated 115 in 2004.
*World Thoroughbred Rankings.
Yet Silvergreaser has posted: The winners of the Hong Kong Cup since the turn of the century, I know for a fact nearly everyone of them would have had Cape Blanco for breakfast.
This despite the fact that the world's best handicappers have rated Cape Blanco 3lbs superior to anything that's won the HK Cup since 2004.
Know for a fact -
Snow Fairy rated 120 in 2010.
Vision D'etat rated 123 in 2009.
Eagle Mountain rated 122 in 2008.
Ramonti rated 123 in 2007.
Pride rated 123 in 2006.
Vengeance of Rain rated 122 in 2005.
Alexander Goldrun rated 115 in 2004.
*World Thoroughbred Rankings.
Yet Silvergreaser has posted: The winners of the Hong Kong Cup since the turn of the century, I know for a fact nearly everyone of them would have had Cape Blanco for breakfast.
This despite the fact that the world's best handicappers have rated Cape Blanco 3lbs superior to anything that's won the HK Cup since 2004.
Know for a fact -
Well done Jamie for bringing him home, a hard ride no doubt but CB would thank him if he could when he is covering all those american turf fillies in Ashford.
As for Cape Blanco, he is obviously no superstar, but what he is is a very solid Group 1 mile and a quarter horse by a great sire and that is something that is very desirable in the American market right now
I actually think he has regressed a little from last year and hasn't run near to his Dante or Irish Champion form this year, thius is probably as good as he is now, I'd say the hard racing last year took a toll on him and he won't get back to that level, he has to be ridden so handy and aggressively to win, but the lasex helps and he obviously knows how to win at this level.
At his peak I think he was a very very good mile and a quarter horse, I'd have him a good way ahead of say Twice Over so he is no plodder, I think they slightly sickened him with hard races last season.
As for Cape Blanco, he is obviously no superstar, but what he is is a very solid Group 1 mile and a quarter horse by a great sire and that is something that is very desirable in the American market right now
I actually think he has regressed a little from last year and hasn't run near to his Dante or Irish Champion form this year, thius is probably as good as he is now, I'd say the hard racing last year took a toll on him and he won't get back to that level, he has to be ridden so handy and aggressively to win, but the lasex helps and he obviously knows how to win at this level.
At his peak I think he was a very very good mile and a quarter horse, I'd have him a good way ahead of say Twice Over so he is no plodder, I think they slightly sickened him with hard races last season.
silvergreaser - How can you dismiss his performance in the champion stakes? His fractions over the first half mile were very strong, yet he still won in dominant fashion. He defeated famous name by 8l, which is a greater margin then so you think achieved, and also defeated multiple group 1 winners twice over and rip van winkle with ease.
They shouldn't have ran him in the Arc after a race like that last year imo
Vinnie we've never seen anything like that since, I believe RVW only ran in the race to prep him for the QEII where he was mugged by Poet's Voice, not as if Coolmore are immune to this sort of thing?. Yep it looked good at the time but sometimes things can be almost be too good to be true?.
Soyouthink, ratings are a load of old bollix and you know that, Pride's rating is an insult she not only won a Hong Kong Cup, a Champion Stakes, she also beat Arc and Irsh Derby winner Hurricane run in the Grand Prix De Saint Cloud and also finished ahead of him when an unlucky 2nd in the following years Arc.
Alexander Goldrun was beaten a shorthead by Quija Board in the Nassau two of the best mares to have raced in the last 10 years or so?.
Fantastic Light and Falbrav need no introduction, Ramonti and Snow Fairy were multiple Group one winners, Agnes Digital was yet another underatted Japanese challenger (they don't underestimate them anymore!) and all the other winners precision been the only exception were solid group one performers who never had 20L and 16L beatings on their cv's? unlike Cape Blanco.
Soyouthink, ratings are a load of old bollix and you know that, Pride's rating is an insult she not only won a Hong Kong Cup, a Champion Stakes, she also beat Arc and Irsh Derby winner Hurricane run in the Grand Prix De Saint Cloud and also finished ahead of him when an unlucky 2nd in the following years Arc.
Alexander Goldrun was beaten a shorthead by Quija Board in the Nassau two of the best mares to have raced in the last 10 years or so?.
Fantastic Light and Falbrav need no introduction, Ramonti and Snow Fairy were multiple Group one winners, Agnes Digital was yet another underatted Japanese challenger (they don't underestimate them anymore!) and all the other winners precision been the only exception were solid group one performers who never had 20L and 16L beatings on their cv's? unlike Cape Blanco.
Like I said earlier silvergreaser, they had Cape Blanco accommodate other horses in his campaign.
Plus there are plenty of top class horses that have run poor races in the Arc for one reason or another, horses like Generous and Nashwan for example. Cape Blanco might not have won last season's Arc but Workforce did, the same Workforce that finished behind Cape Blanco in both the Dante and King George but also won the (Epsom) Derby.
Ballydoyle's horses in that Derby were At First Sight which finished 2nd, Jan Vermeer which went off favourite that day and finished 4th and Midas Touch was 5th and Cape Blanco then beat all of them in the Irish Derby. Maybe they ran Cape Blanco in the French Derby as they thought although he was a winner at 10f, that's as far as his stamina might go based on the fact that his dam was a 5f sprinter, although obviously winning the 12f Irish Derby and again at 12f for today's race would suggest that if that were the case then they were wrong to think that, wouldn't you say? If so then maybe it's not always the case that those nearest to the horse know better.
Oh and just for the record, I had previously said on a So You Think thread that SYT wasn't even the best horse at Ballydoyle and left it at that. I was then asked out of interest which one was and I said Cape Blanco and this was before he had even run and won in the 3 US races.
Plus there are plenty of top class horses that have run poor races in the Arc for one reason or another, horses like Generous and Nashwan for example. Cape Blanco might not have won last season's Arc but Workforce did, the same Workforce that finished behind Cape Blanco in both the Dante and King George but also won the (Epsom) Derby.
Ballydoyle's horses in that Derby were At First Sight which finished 2nd, Jan Vermeer which went off favourite that day and finished 4th and Midas Touch was 5th and Cape Blanco then beat all of them in the Irish Derby. Maybe they ran Cape Blanco in the French Derby as they thought although he was a winner at 10f, that's as far as his stamina might go based on the fact that his dam was a 5f sprinter, although obviously winning the 12f Irish Derby and again at 12f for today's race would suggest that if that were the case then they were wrong to think that, wouldn't you say? If so then maybe it's not always the case that those nearest to the horse know better.
Oh and just for the record, I had previously said on a So You Think thread that SYT wasn't even the best horse at Ballydoyle and left it at that. I was then asked out of interest which one was and I said Cape Blanco and this was before he had even run and won in the 3 US races.
Rip van winkle was 8/11 fav for the race... if that was a prep.. why the price?.
You say so you think is overrated but yet you praise snow fairy?
Famous name is a solid form guider, and if cape blanco can defeat that horse by 8l, he is clearly very good.
You have no evidence to back up what you say.
You say so you think is overrated but yet you praise snow fairy?
Famous name is a solid form guider, and if cape blanco can defeat that horse by 8l, he is clearly very good.
You have no evidence to back up what you say.
Hurricane Run was over the top by the Champion stakes one could also say
Silvergreaser, the ratings may well be flawed but they are the most accurate means of assessing the strength of an individual racehorse. They might not always get it right, but they aren't as wrong as you are trying to make us believe either. Particurly in the case of Cape Blanco and the horses that won the HK Cup.
As for best mare in last 10 years? Probably Ouija Board. Alexander Goldrun was very good. I liked the Japanese filly Vodka a lot. And Aidan had Peeping Fawn, Alexandrova and Halfway to Heaven who were all very good. Then there's the Aussies such as Miss Andretti, Makybe Diva and Black Caviar to think about and lots of contenders in the USA too.
As for best mare in last 10 years? Probably Ouija Board. Alexander Goldrun was very good. I liked the Japanese filly Vodka a lot. And Aidan had Peeping Fawn, Alexandrova and Halfway to Heaven who were all very good. Then there's the Aussies such as Miss Andretti, Makybe Diva and Black Caviar to think about and lots of contenders in the USA too.
You missed glaringly obvious points ima, the Dante was a trial and the King George was won by none other than a Stoute trained horse?
Not to mention Cape Blanco was hard ridden to scrape home in the Irish Derby to beat Midas touch yes the same Midas Touch who was beaten around 12L by Workforce at Epsom and 30+L at Longcahmp where as we've said Cape Blanco was 20L behind.
We're all been selective here but of course I'm been biased but my selective argument seems to hold a lot more water than yours?.
Not to mention Cape Blanco was hard ridden to scrape home in the Irish Derby to beat Midas touch yes the same Midas Touch who was beaten around 12L by Workforce at Epsom and 30+L at Longcahmp where as we've said Cape Blanco was 20L behind.
We're all been selective here but of course I'm been biased but my selective argument seems to hold a lot more water than yours?.
Rip van Winkle was never a genuine miler anyway and they just got sick of being beaten by Sea The Stars so tried different trips to avoid him and it was only RvW's class that allowed him to beat not quite top notch specialist millers. Once he tried facing the top notch ones he wasn't quite good enough.
In the Irish Champion that Cape Blanco won, Murtagh and Queally on Twice Over (no plodder either) committed the cardinal sin of racing one horse only as in each other, rather than the whole field and both jockeys clearly underestimated Cape Blanco's ability.
In the Irish Champion that Cape Blanco won, Murtagh and Queally on Twice Over (no plodder either) committed the cardinal sin of racing one horse only as in each other, rather than the whole field and both jockeys clearly underestimated Cape Blanco's ability.
SYT I agree Alexandrova and Peeping Fawn looked like serious animals and its a pity we didn't see more of them because we never really found out how good they might have been?
Ima,if your assertion that CB is better than SYT then get laying SYT for all you can beg,steal or borrow because CB would not have an earthly in todays Arc.nap
So aren't horse aren't trying to win trials silvergreaser? Aren't trials a way of measuring if a horse is good enough for the real thing and if they can't win or run very well in those then doesn't that tell connections that there's not much point going for the main target?
I'm sorry as you've lost me on the relevance of the King George winner also being trained by Stoute? Surely you aren't suggesting there was anything underhand from Workforce's connections to "let" Harbinger win the race?
Have you thought about maybe Midas Touch didn't handle the idiosyncrasies of the track at Epsom? He wouldn't be the first Epsom flop to run well at the Curragh. Or as I mentioned earlier that plenty of horses have run poor races in the Arc for one reason or another, such as being over the top or not getting a clear run in a big field? Plus I wouldn't always pay too much attention to distances as I'm sure you will know that jockeys often ease down and coast in once they are beaten.
I'm sorry as you've lost me on the relevance of the King George winner also being trained by Stoute? Surely you aren't suggesting there was anything underhand from Workforce's connections to "let" Harbinger win the race?
Have you thought about maybe Midas Touch didn't handle the idiosyncrasies of the track at Epsom? He wouldn't be the first Epsom flop to run well at the Curragh. Or as I mentioned earlier that plenty of horses have run poor races in the Arc for one reason or another, such as being over the top or not getting a clear run in a big field? Plus I wouldn't always pay too much attention to distances as I'm sure you will know that jockeys often ease down and coast in once they are beaten.
Technically ima, but if you rewind back to the 80's the trials were always treated seriously nowadays they're treated as a racecourse school by many.
Henry Cecil an exception been old school he always trials his classic hopes like he did with Frankel, while leaving a bit to work on, they were always fit enough to do themselves justice unlike the rancid Coolmore outfit who even use Group one's these days as schooling races.
Vincent O'Brien would turn in his grave if he was able to witness what is going on today in the place he built up from scratch.
Vincents nearly always had a trial run and usually won and if they didn't they didn't run in the classic.
As for me suggesting that Stoute stopped workforce?, all you have to do is look at who owned Harbinger, I'm surprised that Abdullah didn't remove the horse and all others from his yard, no doubt Stoute done a good impression of a grovelling serf, saved by the bell ie Workforce winning the Arc.
Henry Cecil an exception been old school he always trials his classic hopes like he did with Frankel, while leaving a bit to work on, they were always fit enough to do themselves justice unlike the rancid Coolmore outfit who even use Group one's these days as schooling races.
Vincent O'Brien would turn in his grave if he was able to witness what is going on today in the place he built up from scratch.
Vincents nearly always had a trial run and usually won and if they didn't they didn't run in the classic.
As for me suggesting that Stoute stopped workforce?, all you have to do is look at who owned Harbinger, I'm surprised that Abdullah didn't remove the horse and all others from his yard, no doubt Stoute done a good impression of a grovelling serf, saved by the bell ie Workforce winning the Arc.
missed out Zarkava in that list of the best fillies, a shocking omission
neill d we didn't have a poll on who is the best fillie/mare,
I just said that Alexander Goldrun and Quija Board were two of the best and Alexandrova and Peeping Fawn were seriously good but how good we'll never know?.
I've a serious soft spot for the way underrated Pride, and Zarkava was simply in a class of her own.
I just said that Alexander Goldrun and Quija Board were two of the best and Alexandrova and Peeping Fawn were seriously good but how good we'll never know?.
I've a serious soft spot for the way underrated Pride, and Zarkava was simply in a class of her own.
zarkava
i see shes had a sea the stars colt, i wonder what price that will be in its maiden!
i see shes had a sea the stars colt, i wonder what price that will be in its maiden!
These threads can start out on one thing and then branch out so much. 
Put it this way rscaughtyboy, I know these things aren't an exact science but Cape Blanco has top class form tied in with Rip van Winkle and then by association with Sea The Stars and I would compare them favourably with So You Think. I may well lay SYT in the Arc too but I have one slight reservation and this is not a cop out but I don't think the Arc winner is necessarily always the best horse in the race and there have been some hard luck stories in the past with certain horses like Mtoto (Tony Bin) and Hurricane Run (Rail Link). I do think SYT has a chance of being placed and from there it's only a blocked run here or there from the horse maybe ending up the winner.
As for the trials silvergreaser, two of the best Derby ones are the Derrinstown Stud and the Dante and in recent seasons horses like Sinndar, Galileo and High Chaparal have all won it and then won the Derby, as well as other subsequent big races winners have won it such as Alamshar, Yeats, Dylan Thomas and Fame and Glory. The same applies with the Dante and recent winners like North Light, Motivatopr and Authorized all then won the Derby as well as other winners going close in the Derby like Tartan Bearer and Carlton House so I'm not sure I'd agree with your views on the trials to be honest.
The "problem" Ballydoyle now have is that they have so many contenders for the big races that they probably don't always know their best or stand out ones, as opposed to the O'Brien early days when they would have 1 or 2 runners in the big races and know they were their best. If you think in Galileo's Derby he was their only runner and won and in High Chaparral's they had the 1-2 with him and Hawk Wing and also had the 1-2 with Rock of Gibraltar and Hawk Wing in the 2,000 Guineas that year too. Then compare that with recently and they even had as many as 7 runners in the Derby Authorized won.
Put it this way rscaughtyboy, I know these things aren't an exact science but Cape Blanco has top class form tied in with Rip van Winkle and then by association with Sea The Stars and I would compare them favourably with So You Think. I may well lay SYT in the Arc too but I have one slight reservation and this is not a cop out but I don't think the Arc winner is necessarily always the best horse in the race and there have been some hard luck stories in the past with certain horses like Mtoto (Tony Bin) and Hurricane Run (Rail Link). I do think SYT has a chance of being placed and from there it's only a blocked run here or there from the horse maybe ending up the winner.
As for the trials silvergreaser, two of the best Derby ones are the Derrinstown Stud and the Dante and in recent seasons horses like Sinndar, Galileo and High Chaparal have all won it and then won the Derby, as well as other subsequent big races winners have won it such as Alamshar, Yeats, Dylan Thomas and Fame and Glory. The same applies with the Dante and recent winners like North Light, Motivatopr and Authorized all then won the Derby as well as other winners going close in the Derby like Tartan Bearer and Carlton House so I'm not sure I'd agree with your views on the trials to be honest.
The "problem" Ballydoyle now have is that they have so many contenders for the big races that they probably don't always know their best or stand out ones, as opposed to the O'Brien early days when they would have 1 or 2 runners in the big races and know they were their best. If you think in Galileo's Derby he was their only runner and won and in High Chaparral's they had the 1-2 with him and Hawk Wing and also had the 1-2 with Rock of Gibraltar and Hawk Wing in the 2,000 Guineas that year too. Then compare that with recently and they even had as many as 7 runners in the Derby Authorized won.
thats his good self
http://www.agakhanstuds.com/zoom.asp?childname=N.ZARKAVA&hphotoname=n-zarkava&hcopyright=Aga%20Khan%20Private
http://www.agakhanstuds.com/zoom.asp?childname=N.ZARKAVA&hphotoname=n-zarkava&hcopyright=Aga%20Khan%20Private
Ima I agree with a lot of what you say but if you notice your example about trials are more about Derby horses than guineas horses, the guineas trials today are almost obsolete to be almost pointless?.
Question how can you say Hurricane Run was unlucky when Pride was held up right out the back and absolutely flew home?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlPB3X3Nmcs
Question how can you say Hurricane Run was unlucky when Pride was held up right out the back and absolutely flew home?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlPB3X3Nmcs
The trouble with the guineas though silvergreaser is that they come so early in the season and some runners will even miss the trials and go straight to the race itself. Plus the guineas trials and the guineas itself tend to be run closer together so maybe they won't want to overdo the horses for those trials but earlier we were on about Cape Blanco and trials and his was for the Derby. Then you've got the additional angle with the guineas of whether the horses have trained on or do they really get the mile and so on. By the time the Derby trials come around then many of these kind of questions have been answered and I would have thought with the longer break between the trials and the Derby that the horses are a lot more tuned up for Derby trials.
Hurricane Run was unlucky because Fallon went around the inside to save ground and then couldn't get a run. Then when Deep Impact went forward, Fallon had been waiting for that gap to be made but just as it was and he wanted to edge out, Pride came and took it and meant Fallon had to drop back and edge out even wider. Pride was also a little unlucky too in her run too as then Rail Link cut across her but in general that just makes my point about hard luck stories in a race like the Arc. Fallon gave HR basically the same ride both years but got the split on the inside in the year that they won it.
I still though can't really go along with your thinking that Stoute would do anything iffy in the King George though just because he had 2 runners in the race and he would have a lot more to lose if the Adbullah horse went from his stable then if the Highclere ones did. Harbinger had only won at Gr 2 and 3 level before that and I don't think anyone saw him winning the KG as impressively as he did.
Hurricane Run was unlucky because Fallon went around the inside to save ground and then couldn't get a run. Then when Deep Impact went forward, Fallon had been waiting for that gap to be made but just as it was and he wanted to edge out, Pride came and took it and meant Fallon had to drop back and edge out even wider. Pride was also a little unlucky too in her run too as then Rail Link cut across her but in general that just makes my point about hard luck stories in a race like the Arc. Fallon gave HR basically the same ride both years but got the split on the inside in the year that they won it.
I still though can't really go along with your thinking that Stoute would do anything iffy in the King George though just because he had 2 runners in the race and he would have a lot more to lose if the Adbullah horse went from his stable then if the Highclere ones did. Harbinger had only won at Gr 2 and 3 level before that and I don't think anyone saw him winning the KG as impressively as he did.
Nearly time for bed, but my recollection has it 3 to 1 in Pride's favour, Hurricane Run was left floudering behind her in the Champion Stakes?, the only defeat was yet another unlucky run from Pride in Hurricane Runs Arc victory.
Yeah I mean it wasn't meant as a comparison about which is the better horse or anything like that, all I was really responding to was when it was suggested about laying SYT in the Arc then I was only pointing out that I don't think it's the best race to lay in, as there can be a few hard lucky stories in it each year and Hurricane Run was just one of those that I mentioned.
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