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yes he's a decent horse,but thats about it,he's no superstar,rewilding beat him comfortably,yes he beat workforce but wouldnt beat workforce over 1m 4f in a lifetime,and yesterday he's all out in beating snow fairy,no doubt snow fairy is a very good horse but if SYT is the superstar everyone keeps telling us then he should be beating her on the bridle,coolmore will not send him to the arc because they know deep down he has little or no chance in winning,so as i said,he's a decent horse but is no superstar!
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I like it.Shame more posters don't put in the time.
I do,but i get banned when i try to have a debate.Such is life.
u gotta be careful, u wouldnt wanna give yourself away
yes there are a lot of wind up merchants(sometimes me) but normally i just put my point across and thats it, i cant help it if their ignorance gets in the way of their opinion(usually wrong)
joke.
) but normally i just put my point across and thats it, i cant help it if their ignorance gets in the way of their opinion(usually wrong)joke.
Not that i can recall,but then i have an alcohol soaked brain.
ok max. im off to bed, talk to u again no doubt.
be lucky.
be lucky.
I have been Maxcady and 2THEMAX.I hope i have not insulted you in a previous life.
no bother max, no hard feelings, just a stupid forum anyway.
gl
gl
Even if you were to argue Workforce was a very very good 3YO, the horse wasn't a very very good 4YO and that's when SYT was racing against it so it becomes a bit irrelevant really regarding what kind of 3YO it was.
Workforce's was a poor Derby field as shown by the fact so few horses did anything of note after and as I said earlier, one of O'Brien's 100/1 pacemakers lead most of the way and yet still finished 2nd and when their stable go mob handed for the Derby, it either means they don't have anything outstanding or he doesn't know which is best, as opposed to when the run 1 or 2 in it where they will win or go close or be 1st and 2nd. The 3rd that day was Rewilding and that's about the best of the rest and yet SYT couldn't beat that one at 10f. Ted Spread also ran in that Derby and is now hurdling for Paul Nicholls and Bullet Train also ran and has been reduced to the role of Frankel's pacemaker.
I would also suggest that with the likes of Known Fact, Dancing Brave, Frankel, Zafonic, African Rose, Warning, Raintrap, Quest for Fame, Commander in Chief, Rainbow Quest, Banks Hill, Danehill, Wemyss Bight, Bolas, Houseproud, American Post, Oasis Dream, Sanglamore, Toulon, Observatory, Flute, Beat Hollow, Empire Maker, Intercontinental, Rail Link, Cacique, Reams of Verse, Champs Elysees, Special Duty, Twice Over and Midday all like Workforce being owned by Khalid Abdullah that WF despite the different sexes and trips raced over would struggle to be considered one of a single owner's top horses and wouldn't live with Dancing Brave despite that one not winning a Derby......I would also suggest that Stoute would rank many more of his others trained as being better too.
As to your question where's the line for deciding when a hyped horse becomes a failure, I would say it's when they are beaten more times than they win and WF won 4 and lost 5 and since being based in Ireland SYT has won 4 (with 2 being not much more than racecourse gallops) and lost 5.
Workforce's was a poor Derby field as shown by the fact so few horses did anything of note after and as I said earlier, one of O'Brien's 100/1 pacemakers lead most of the way and yet still finished 2nd and when their stable go mob handed for the Derby, it either means they don't have anything outstanding or he doesn't know which is best, as opposed to when the run 1 or 2 in it where they will win or go close or be 1st and 2nd. The 3rd that day was Rewilding and that's about the best of the rest and yet SYT couldn't beat that one at 10f. Ted Spread also ran in that Derby and is now hurdling for Paul Nicholls and Bullet Train also ran and has been reduced to the role of Frankel's pacemaker.
I would also suggest that with the likes of Known Fact, Dancing Brave, Frankel, Zafonic, African Rose, Warning, Raintrap, Quest for Fame, Commander in Chief, Rainbow Quest, Banks Hill, Danehill, Wemyss Bight, Bolas, Houseproud, American Post, Oasis Dream, Sanglamore, Toulon, Observatory, Flute, Beat Hollow, Empire Maker, Intercontinental, Rail Link, Cacique, Reams of Verse, Champs Elysees, Special Duty, Twice Over and Midday all like Workforce being owned by Khalid Abdullah that WF despite the different sexes and trips raced over would struggle to be considered one of a single owner's top horses and wouldn't live with Dancing Brave despite that one not winning a Derby......I would also suggest that Stoute would rank many more of his others trained as being better too.
As to your question where's the line for deciding when a hyped horse becomes a failure, I would say it's when they are beaten more times than they win and WF won 4 and lost 5 and since being based in Ireland SYT has won 4 (with 2 being not much more than racecourse gallops) and lost 5.
Seriously though how good would this horse be over hurdles. He is built for the job. Chop off his tackle and stick it to Rock on Ruby... 
OTS if SYT cannot beat Excellebration then they may as well send him back now. I know where my money would go if they ever met and that's a fact. Ffs Exc has only won 1 Group 1 and then he beat Rio de la Plata who they are still looking for out in Dubai. Pull yourself together. You cannot attack AOB for over hypeing horses then come out with that kind of hype. You have to believe your own eyes and the form book. They are two very good places to start.
interesting FACT ...of all place getters in frankel's 3yr old race starts, only 2 horses have won a race ...Excelebration and the other won a grd 3 handicap
i argue my case on Excelebration performances, 2nd best miler in the world, Australian sired horse, if the english feel australia dont have decent horses, makes Frankel just a ordinary run of the mill champion of his year....doesnt it??
i argue my case on Excelebration performances, 2nd best miler in the world, Australian sired horse, if the english feel australia dont have decent horses, makes Frankel just a ordinary run of the mill champion of his year....doesnt it??
And you mugs have finally cottoned on that the SYT whilst decent and a trier is nothing like as good as some of you Aussie mugs made out.
Has Frankel only raced at 3 then by the way? Look through the horse's whole race career and he's had any number of GR1 winners in behind in both seasons that had already won multiple Gr1s or went on to, so wipe away the bitterness and tears and do some research. Plus has it ever occurred to you that plenty of other trainers decided it wasn't worth taking him on when Frankel's such a good horse and even if nothing behind him won another race, the horse can only win and go unbeaten and what more do you want from the it?
Imagine that eh, a bunch of Aussies not taking defeat too well and then they have the front to go on about whinging poms......sometimes this sh1t writes itself.
Has Frankel only raced at 3 then by the way? Look through the horse's whole race career and he's had any number of GR1 winners in behind in both seasons that had already won multiple Gr1s or went on to, so wipe away the bitterness and tears and do some research. Plus has it ever occurred to you that plenty of other trainers decided it wasn't worth taking him on when Frankel's such a good horse and even if nothing behind him won another race, the horse can only win and go unbeaten and what more do you want from the it?
Imagine that eh, a bunch of Aussies not taking defeat too well and then they have the front to go on about whinging poms......sometimes this sh1t writes itself.
IMA,that,s exactly what is said to Megsy about Frankels form.He really should do more research.
Unless of course Maxim-Reality we are doing Megsy a disservice and he knows exactly what he is doing by wording his statement to manipulate things and suit his own argument.
Limiting it to horses placed behind Frankel but only during his 3YO career means you can't including Nathaniel (King George winner), Treasure Beach (Chester Vase, Irish Derby, Grade 1 Secretariat Stakes winner and narrow Epsom Derby runner up) Roderic O'Connor (Group 1 Criterium International and Irish 2000 winner), Dream Ahead (July Cup, Sprint Cup and Prix De La Foret winner, all Gr1s) and so that only leaves Excelerbation and his German 2000, Hungerford and a Gr1 win at Longchamp plus Dubawi Gold winning the Celebration Mile at Goodwood and the fact that horses like Strong Suit won 3 more Group races including at Royal Ascot and Goodwood after being beaten by Frankel, or that Casamento won a Group race at Longchamp also after having been beaten by Frankel, doesn't count as franking the form because they finished further down the field when behind Frankel and not actually placed.
Apparently neither was the form boosted by the fact that Immortal Verse prior to finishing placed behind Frankel went into that race off of a 3 group winning race hat trick of which 2 were Gr1s because that happened before being beaten by Frankel. Nor does it matter that the likes of Canford Cliffs was a multiple Gr1 winner because that was also before being beaten by Frankel, or that Rajaman although beaten 10L by Frankel was only 4th so it doesn't mean he franked the form just because the horse won a Gr2 later on because it wasn't placed behind Frankel or that **** Turpin was 8L behind Frankel but had won a Gr1 by a short head the race before when beating Cityscape and that one has just won a near £2million race by over 4L in Dubai but none of this counts because they weren't actually placed behind Frankel in his 3YO season.
If you specify the criteria strictly enough, that would be a bit like saying that Lionel Messi fella is sh1t because look how few headers he has scored this season in the last 15 minutes of games on away grounds whilst wearing a short sleeved shirt and white boots!
Limiting it to horses placed behind Frankel but only during his 3YO career means you can't including Nathaniel (King George winner), Treasure Beach (Chester Vase, Irish Derby, Grade 1 Secretariat Stakes winner and narrow Epsom Derby runner up) Roderic O'Connor (Group 1 Criterium International and Irish 2000 winner), Dream Ahead (July Cup, Sprint Cup and Prix De La Foret winner, all Gr1s) and so that only leaves Excelerbation and his German 2000, Hungerford and a Gr1 win at Longchamp plus Dubawi Gold winning the Celebration Mile at Goodwood and the fact that horses like Strong Suit won 3 more Group races including at Royal Ascot and Goodwood after being beaten by Frankel, or that Casamento won a Group race at Longchamp also after having been beaten by Frankel, doesn't count as franking the form because they finished further down the field when behind Frankel and not actually placed.
Apparently neither was the form boosted by the fact that Immortal Verse prior to finishing placed behind Frankel went into that race off of a 3 group winning race hat trick of which 2 were Gr1s because that happened before being beaten by Frankel. Nor does it matter that the likes of Canford Cliffs was a multiple Gr1 winner because that was also before being beaten by Frankel, or that Rajaman although beaten 10L by Frankel was only 4th so it doesn't mean he franked the form just because the horse won a Gr2 later on because it wasn't placed behind Frankel or that **** Turpin was 8L behind Frankel but had won a Gr1 by a short head the race before when beating Cityscape and that one has just won a near £2million race by over 4L in Dubai but none of this counts because they weren't actually placed behind Frankel in his 3YO season.
If you specify the criteria strictly enough, that would be a bit like saying that Lionel Messi fella is sh1t because look how few headers he has scored this season in the last 15 minutes of games on away grounds whilst wearing a short sleeved shirt and white boots!
LOL....D1ck Turpin.....if only Betfair spent as much effort sorting out the race videos as they do over the "swear" filter.
Exactly what i told him,cherrypicking part of a horses career to make a poor point.
I will post it on the aus forum,if you don't mind, so he won't miss it.
No I don't mind and feel free if you haven't done so already......although his first response will probably be who the fcuk is Leonard Messi. 
Treasure Beach won at 1m 2f and 1m 4f
Roderic O'Connor running in 1m 2f, 1m 4f
Dream Ahead 6f and 7f
Casamento won a weak grp 3 at 1m 2f
Strong Suit won at 7f
seems those mentioned by im amazed were sprinters or middle distance horses, NOT milers,
tells the story, sprinters you expect to weaken at the mile, middle distance horse, just winding up
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please
Roderic O'Connor running in 1m 2f, 1m 4f
Dream Ahead 6f and 7f
Casamento won a weak grp 3 at 1m 2f
Strong Suit won at 7f
seems those mentioned by im amazed were sprinters or middle distance horses, NOT milers,
tells the story, sprinters you expect to weaken at the mile, middle distance horse, just winding up
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please
They weren't any distance horses when Frankel was beating them as 2YOs because none of them had been pigeon holed at that stage, but even a top 10f or 12f 3YO would have to be very decent at a mile as a 2YO and that's been shown time after time by horses that won the Royal Lodge and Dewhurst at a mile as 2YO (and a mile is one of the longest 2YO trips anyway and which were both races won by Frankel) have then gone on to win multiple 2000 Gns (El Gran Senor, Zafonic, Pennekamp, Mister Baileys, Rock of Gibraltar), Eclipse Winners, Derby trials, Derbys in various forms (Nijinksy, Mill Reef, Grundy, The Minstrel, Generous, Dr Devious, Benny the Dip, Sir Percy, New Approach, Sharmadal), Arc winners and even Leger winners too and as recently as the last Royal Lodge winner Daddy Long Legs has just come out as a 3YO and won the 10f UAE Derby first time out too.
In my opinion Frankel isn't strictly a miler anyway and I don't think it would matter what trip it ran at from 6f to 12f as it's classy enough to win at any of those and can win with any tactics too, whether it be blast out and lead all the way where it basically had the 2000 and St James's Palace won at halfway or sit off the pace and come from behind as it has done numerous times in its other races. We'll soon see if I'm right about the 10f part anyway and seeing as though he had a top future sprinter like Dream Ahead burnt off by the 5-6f mark twice before, I think I'm definitely right on that score already.
As for the bullsh1t about Canford Cliffs "injury" then apart from the fact it didn't stop the horse finishing the race and still beating the 3rd and 4th by 2½L twice, the horse was beaten over a furlong out and even if it felt something to cause it to hang, it did so when beaten anyway and was still clear enough of the others not to lose much ground or its finishing position. Personally I just think it began to hang for the pressure Frankel put it under, as in most of its other races it won by cruising in behind leaders on the bridle and then was barely shaken up around the final furlong but wasn't able to do that with Frankel. The Racing Post post-race comments were:
Tracked winner, ridden over 1f out, immediately outpaced by winner and beaten when hung badly left from 1f out
and interestingly when D1ck Turpin (another Frankel victim) beat Canford Cliffs in the Greenham the RP comments were:
Led, driven, quickened 3 lengths clear and edged left over 1f out, hung left inside final furlong, headed and no extra near finish
and when beaten into 3rd in the Newmarket 2000 Gns behind Makfi/D1ck Turpin:
Held up, pulled hard, headway over 1f out, ridden and hung right inside final furlong, no extra towards finish
anyone see a pattern forming here? Was the horse injured in all of those race too before then winning 5 Gr1s on the spin including the first of those being the Irish 2000 Gns, around 3 weeks after the "injury" in the Newmarket race? Or could it just be that there never was one?
Taken from the BBC website after the Frankel defeat:
Trainer Richard Hannon said: "He's been a fantastic horse for the yard. He is without doubt the best horse I have had in over 40 years as a trainer.
"It's a terrible shame - it's heartbreaking, but I don't want to see him end up with a bad injury."
He added: "He has a bit of a shadow on the joint running into the pastern and that could turn into something nasty - it could turn into a fracture."
The horse would never beat Frankel in the future if the trainer is saying it's the best he's ever had in 40 years, and coincidently had recently been bought by Coolmore and so they put it away to protect its stud value before Frankel broke it and ruined it's price and reputation, as great a horse Canford Cliffs was.
As for the request for another specialist miler beaten by Frankel, how about Immortal Verse? The winner of 3 races on the spin (I'm sure I've typed this before lol) before that defeat by 7½L it had won a Gr2 and then 2 Gr1s including the Coronation Stakes during the British Champions' Series. Or what about Dubawi Gold, 6L 2nd to Frankel in the Newmarket 2000 Gns and 2nd again by ¾L in the Irish 2000 by another Frankel victim. 3 times Dubawi Gold was beaten by Frankel and despite winning again between those times, the horse's form has been a bit patchy and maybe that's the "broken" thing I was on about Coolmore fearing with Canford Cliffs.
Other specialist milers at that trip Frankel has beaten are multiple Gr1 winner D1ck Turpin, multiple Group 1 & 2 winner Poet's Corner, Multiple 2YO winner including at Gr1 level Wootton Bassett (although in fairness probably didn't train on) Japanese multiple Grade 1 winner Grand Prix Boss......sorry I'm getting a bit bored here now lol, I could list you the race names too megsy but as you've already been told, do your own research and just because you really hope and want things not to be the case so that you can devalue a great horse like Frankel after seeing you own great hope genuinely devalued, it doesn't mean it actually is the case and if did your own research then you wouldn't be asking stupid questions like:
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please.
I think maybe you need to replace that with a 
to be honest.
In my opinion Frankel isn't strictly a miler anyway and I don't think it would matter what trip it ran at from 6f to 12f as it's classy enough to win at any of those and can win with any tactics too, whether it be blast out and lead all the way where it basically had the 2000 and St James's Palace won at halfway or sit off the pace and come from behind as it has done numerous times in its other races. We'll soon see if I'm right about the 10f part anyway and seeing as though he had a top future sprinter like Dream Ahead burnt off by the 5-6f mark twice before, I think I'm definitely right on that score already.
As for the bullsh1t about Canford Cliffs "injury" then apart from the fact it didn't stop the horse finishing the race and still beating the 3rd and 4th by 2½L twice, the horse was beaten over a furlong out and even if it felt something to cause it to hang, it did so when beaten anyway and was still clear enough of the others not to lose much ground or its finishing position. Personally I just think it began to hang for the pressure Frankel put it under, as in most of its other races it won by cruising in behind leaders on the bridle and then was barely shaken up around the final furlong but wasn't able to do that with Frankel. The Racing Post post-race comments were:
Tracked winner, ridden over 1f out, immediately outpaced by winner and beaten when hung badly left from 1f out
and interestingly when D1ck Turpin (another Frankel victim) beat Canford Cliffs in the Greenham the RP comments were:
Led, driven, quickened 3 lengths clear and edged left over 1f out, hung left inside final furlong, headed and no extra near finish
and when beaten into 3rd in the Newmarket 2000 Gns behind Makfi/D1ck Turpin:
Held up, pulled hard, headway over 1f out, ridden and hung right inside final furlong, no extra towards finish
anyone see a pattern forming here? Was the horse injured in all of those race too before then winning 5 Gr1s on the spin including the first of those being the Irish 2000 Gns, around 3 weeks after the "injury" in the Newmarket race? Or could it just be that there never was one?
Taken from the BBC website after the Frankel defeat:
Trainer Richard Hannon said: "He's been a fantastic horse for the yard. He is without doubt the best horse I have had in over 40 years as a trainer.
"It's a terrible shame - it's heartbreaking, but I don't want to see him end up with a bad injury."
He added: "He has a bit of a shadow on the joint running into the pastern and that could turn into something nasty - it could turn into a fracture."
The horse would never beat Frankel in the future if the trainer is saying it's the best he's ever had in 40 years, and coincidently had recently been bought by Coolmore and so they put it away to protect its stud value before Frankel broke it and ruined it's price and reputation, as great a horse Canford Cliffs was.
As for the request for another specialist miler beaten by Frankel, how about Immortal Verse? The winner of 3 races on the spin (I'm sure I've typed this before lol) before that defeat by 7½L it had won a Gr2 and then 2 Gr1s including the Coronation Stakes during the British Champions' Series. Or what about Dubawi Gold, 6L 2nd to Frankel in the Newmarket 2000 Gns and 2nd again by ¾L in the Irish 2000 by another Frankel victim. 3 times Dubawi Gold was beaten by Frankel and despite winning again between those times, the horse's form has been a bit patchy and maybe that's the "broken" thing I was on about Coolmore fearing with Canford Cliffs.
Other specialist milers at that trip Frankel has beaten are multiple Gr1 winner D1ck Turpin, multiple Group 1 & 2 winner Poet's Corner, Multiple 2YO winner including at Gr1 level Wootton Bassett (although in fairness probably didn't train on) Japanese multiple Grade 1 winner Grand Prix Boss......sorry I'm getting a bit bored here now lol, I could list you the race names too megsy but as you've already been told, do your own research and just because you really hope and want things not to be the case so that you can devalue a great horse like Frankel after seeing you own great hope genuinely devalued, it doesn't mean it actually is the case and if did your own research then you wouldn't be asking stupid questions like:
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please.
I think maybe you need to replace that
with a to be honest.
repeats, name a specialised 3yr old miler besides the australian sired Excelebration...you cant...simple.
rest my case.
have a pleasant day
rest my case.
have a pleasant day
LOL.....more cherry-picked condition ffs, you really are clutching at straws and how can I break this to you gently but when you then change the criteria with another pathetic stipulation added, that's not actually a repeat of what you have previously said......a repeat is to say the same thing over again.
so anyway now it's:
repeats, name a specialised 3yr old miler besides the australian sired Excelebration...you cant...simple.
But OK I can and I already have, Immortal Verse, Dubawi Gold, Zoffany, Grand Prix Boss (I could have sworn I've listed these before) but whereas previously there was no mention of it having to be a 3YO anyway, for example:
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please.
and the give away was your own follow up comment of:
and the injured canford cliffs dont count.....being that one is a 4YO (great grammar too by the way)
What are you going to stipulate next, a 3YO chestnut born between February and March with 4 white socks, wears a noseband and races with its mane plaited?
I don't know about resting your case and suggest giving it up for dead would be more appropriate!
so anyway now it's:
repeats, name a specialised 3yr old miler besides the australian sired Excelebration...you cant...simple.
But OK I can and I already have, Immortal Verse, Dubawi Gold, Zoffany, Grand Prix Boss (I could have sworn I've listed these before) but whereas previously there was no mention of it having to be a 3YO anyway, for example:
show me one besides the australian sired Excelebration that he has beaten that was a spealised miler like himself?, just one please.
and the give away was your own follow up comment of:
and the injured canford cliffs dont count.....being that one is a 4YO (great grammar too by the way)
What are you going to stipulate next, a 3YO chestnut born between February and March with 4 white socks, wears a noseband and races with its mane plaited?
I don't know about resting your case and suggest giving it up for dead would be more appropriate!
your still clutching at straws aint you, where are the speacialised 3yr old milers he beat, not a horse he beat as a 2 yr olds who have found their nic distances either sprinting or middle distance. You cant read my lips, so i will spell it out .......3 YEAR OLD SEASON AGAINST 3 YEAR OLD MILERS!!!!
the only rivalry i see is Excelebration, he's by an australian sire so he must be a tree .
the only rivalry i see is Excelebration, he's by an australian sire so he must be a tree .
Frankel's a great horse, dunno why anyone (british or australian) would say otherwise.
On, SYT. I'm more and more convinced he's suited to a european mile. He beat some very good 6-8f horses here in aussie over 7f so he clearly has a turn of foot. One of which was typhoon tracy (a great horse by anyone's measure).
He just looks like he has nothing left him in when he's asked to go in the european 10f races. It was telling for mine that he showed a better turn of foot in the arc when ridden out the back than he showed in his 10f races when he was up on the pace.
He won't get near frankel at a mile obviously, but I think he can run 2nd if they let him have a go at the lockinge. Which I doubt they will but hope they do, after all there's little to be lost (in terms of value) by losing to frankel at a mile.
On, SYT. I'm more and more convinced he's suited to a european mile. He beat some very good 6-8f horses here in aussie over 7f so he clearly has a turn of foot. One of which was typhoon tracy (a great horse by anyone's measure).
He just looks like he has nothing left him in when he's asked to go in the european 10f races. It was telling for mine that he showed a better turn of foot in the arc when ridden out the back than he showed in his 10f races when he was up on the pace.
He won't get near frankel at a mile obviously, but I think he can run 2nd if they let him have a go at the lockinge. Which I doubt they will but hope they do, after all there's little to be lost (in terms of value) by losing to frankel at a mile.
Frankel is a great horse, just seems some think, how dare you question our great horse. so far he has raced within his comfort zone and looks to retire still within that same comfort zone at years end, SYT raced in 6 countries in just over 12 months and now the the trainer declares SYT isnt a diry track horse, he is a grass track horse and he still trying to work the horse out. the horse doesnt even look the same anymore.
put SYT in his own comfort zone a mile,
he travels like a miler and finishes like a miler trying to go the extra distance....my opinion.
put SYT in his own comfort zone a mile,
he travels like a miler and finishes like a miler trying to go the extra distance....my opinion.
OK Megsy you have to be on a wind up as despite your ridiculous criteria that you put on (what does it matter what age the other horses are that a 3YO Frankel beats?) I've put up the names of the 3YO specialist milers the horse has beaten anyway about 3 times............unless it really is a case that you are thick?
Once again though as I have a bit of time between races:
IMMORTAL VERSE, DUBAWI GOLD, ZOFFANY, GRAND PRIX BOSS.
Hoping that's clear enough for you?
The problem is tommyjone1 we have those like megsy and others in their wisdom telling us O'Brien can't train, the defeats have been the jockeys fault (what all 3 of them?) that SYT doesn't need pacemakers but does need a strong pace (isn't that what pacemakers ensure?), needs to be ridden handy, went to the front too soon at Ascot, was too far off the pace in the Arc, stays well enough because it was 3rd in a 2m handicap, needs to be raced more by O'Brien with shorter gaps between races (even though in both hemisphere's the number of races and gaps have been similar) so all in all it's a little confusing really what some Aussies really think is best for the horse.
Once again though as I have a bit of time between races:
IMMORTAL VERSE, DUBAWI GOLD, ZOFFANY, GRAND PRIX BOSS.
Hoping that's clear enough for you?
The problem is tommyjone1 we have those like megsy and others in their wisdom telling us O'Brien can't train, the defeats have been the jockeys fault (what all 3 of them?) that SYT doesn't need pacemakers but does need a strong pace (isn't that what pacemakers ensure?), needs to be ridden handy, went to the front too soon at Ascot, was too far off the pace in the Arc, stays well enough because it was 3rd in a 2m handicap, needs to be raced more by O'Brien with shorter gaps between races (even though in both hemisphere's the number of races and gaps have been similar) so all in all it's a little confusing really what some Aussies really think is best for the horse.
Ima you have me amazed. Only one of the 'milers' you listed are actually up to much and we will have to wait and see about that one.
The problem with selecting races for SYT is pretty obvious with AOB not wanting to take on Frankel with the weight allowance. This season may be different. All of the form is pretty suspect with SYT the only potential superstar, Frankel apart, at the beginning of the season with all of the others very much sub standard Group 1 material. What Frankel needs is a proper Group 1 horse to take him on at level weights then we may get a proper look at him. But is that likely to happen if SYT swerves the Lockinge?
Don't forget Long Run looked a superstar last season but he hasn't fulfilled that potential.
The problem with selecting races for SYT is pretty obvious with AOB not wanting to take on Frankel with the weight allowance. This season may be different. All of the form is pretty suspect with SYT the only potential superstar, Frankel apart, at the beginning of the season with all of the others very much sub standard Group 1 material. What Frankel needs is a proper Group 1 horse to take him on at level weights then we may get a proper look at him. But is that likely to happen if SYT swerves the Lockinge?
Don't forget Long Run looked a superstar last season but he hasn't fulfilled that potential.
Megsy's exact question (eventually lol) regarding horses Frankel had beaten was:
name a specialised 3yr old miler besides the australian sired Excelebration...you cant...simple.
and the 4 I've named above address that.
Whether you or I rate them is another issue but even so Immortal Verse went into the clash with Frankel having won a Gr2 and then 2 Gr1s in a row, including the Coronation Stakes British Champions' Series which was contested by horses from the UK, Ireland, France and the US that had previously won 7 Group or Grade rated races including Grade 1. Dubawi Gold was a dual 2000 guineas runner up and would have won both if Frankel wasn't in the first and the jockey had not sat so far back for the second, and the Irish 2000 winner was Roderic O'Connor and that one had tried to go with Frankel early on at Newmarket but was burnt off and faded to be beaten 38L in 11th of 13 and Dubawi Gold tried the same tactic at Royal Ascot and ended up 13L and 6th of 9, although the horse also won a Group 2 after that.
Grand Prix Boss won a Grd 2 and two Grd 1s in Japan in races prior to being beaten by Frankel and some of the Aussie members on here love to tell us how much better the French and Japaneses horses are compared to ours based on the strength on one 2m handicap and Zoffany has finished 2nd to Frankel but still ahead of Excelebration, a horse Megsy seems to rate based on the fact that it has an Aussie sire but doesn't rate the same horse that continuously beats Excelebration with the score 3-0 in Frankel's favour when not only coming out best of that private battle but also winning those actual races too and is unbeaten in 9.....I did say that sometimes this sh1t writes itself.
Roderic O'Connor, Dubawi Gold and Zoffany have all had their hearts broken by Frankel and have looked demoralised horses in general since then but also like I've said previously too though, if you put so many provisos on the wording of the question as megsy does, then you can make a world beater look like it's only ever beaten carthorses.
name a specialised 3yr old miler besides the australian sired Excelebration...you cant...simple.
and the 4 I've named above address that.
Whether you or I rate them is another issue but even so Immortal Verse went into the clash with Frankel having won a Gr2 and then 2 Gr1s in a row, including the Coronation Stakes British Champions' Series which was contested by horses from the UK, Ireland, France and the US that had previously won 7 Group or Grade rated races including Grade 1. Dubawi Gold was a dual 2000 guineas runner up and would have won both if Frankel wasn't in the first and the jockey had not sat so far back for the second, and the Irish 2000 winner was Roderic O'Connor and that one had tried to go with Frankel early on at Newmarket but was burnt off and faded to be beaten 38L in 11th of 13 and Dubawi Gold tried the same tactic at Royal Ascot and ended up 13L and 6th of 9, although the horse also won a Group 2 after that.
Grand Prix Boss won a Grd 2 and two Grd 1s in Japan in races prior to being beaten by Frankel and some of the Aussie members on here love to tell us how much better the French and Japaneses horses are compared to ours based on the strength on one 2m handicap and Zoffany has finished 2nd to Frankel but still ahead of Excelebration, a horse Megsy seems to rate based on the fact that it has an Aussie sire but doesn't rate the same horse that continuously beats Excelebration with the score 3-0 in Frankel's favour when not only coming out best of that private battle but also winning those actual races too and is unbeaten in 9.....I did say that sometimes this sh1t writes itself.
Roderic O'Connor, Dubawi Gold and Zoffany have all had their hearts broken by Frankel and have looked demoralised horses in general since then but also like I've said previously too though, if you put so many provisos on the wording of the question as megsy does, then you can make a world beater look like it's only ever beaten carthorses.
Frankel can only beat what is put in front of him,the difference being he beat them all..............unlike SYT.Amazing that the Antipodean criminals are still clutching at non existent straws.
My point Ima is that none of the horses Frankel has beaten are superstars and that goes for SYT. I'm not knocking either horse but I do understand why AOB went for the races he did.
I am looking forward to Frankel this season but sadly I cannot see anything of note taking him on because there isn't anything of note about. SYT is the nearest there is to a challenger however much you knock him so at least if he takes Frankel on we may get a race worth watching.
I don't rate horses by how many races they win or how easily they do it I rate them on the calibre of the horses they beat. After this season we may be able to put some flesh on the bones.
I am looking forward to Frankel this season but sadly I cannot see anything of note taking him on because there isn't anything of note about. SYT is the nearest there is to a challenger however much you knock him so at least if he takes Frankel on we may get a race worth watching.
I don't rate horses by how many races they win or how easily they do it I rate them on the calibre of the horses they beat. After this season we may be able to put some flesh on the bones.
I understand that brigust1 but I was only responding to megsy's question(s) with my reply.
I also understand why O'Brien went for the races her did and if he was erroneously lead to believe he had a superstar on his hands then the horse's future races and perceived best distances tended to dictate where it went. You have to laugh though at Aussie stick towards Frankel by giving the horse a dig and claiming it's not an all time great until it race overseas amongst other things and then in the next sentence slate O'Brien for racing SYT, er overseas!
The same with saying SYT isn't a non-turf horse either and giving connections stick after it's beaten on dirt or on an artificial surface but don't you have to try first to see? The surface wasn't even the reason for those defeats anyway, the horse just wasn't good enough and I expected it's galloped on an artificial surface in training before anyway, which whilst not the same as a race, will still give them an idea of how it handles it.
There are also any number of ways to rate a horse but if it's a great then it's a great, regardless as to whether it ticks all of the boxes of any chosen criteria and what if it just happens to be around at a time when there aren't any/many outstanding rivals? Does that make that great horse any less of one? Granted it boosts the argument if it ticks loads of boxes including beating other top notch horses but the how does Sea The Stars rate based on the quality of opposition that one beat?
If any horses win 8 in a row or 9 and are unbeaten, including multiple Gr1s then I think it's fair enough to say that those kind of horses are right up there with the very best.
By the way, not asking in a stroppy way or anything but when you said regarding SYT "however much you knock him" was that a plural "you" in general or for me personally?
I also understand why O'Brien went for the races her did and if he was erroneously lead to believe he had a superstar on his hands then the horse's future races and perceived best distances tended to dictate where it went. You have to laugh though at Aussie stick towards Frankel by giving the horse a dig and claiming it's not an all time great until it race overseas amongst other things and then in the next sentence slate O'Brien for racing SYT, er overseas!
The same with saying SYT isn't a non-turf horse either and giving connections stick after it's beaten on dirt or on an artificial surface but don't you have to try first to see? The surface wasn't even the reason for those defeats anyway, the horse just wasn't good enough and I expected it's galloped on an artificial surface in training before anyway, which whilst not the same as a race, will still give them an idea of how it handles it.
There are also any number of ways to rate a horse but if it's a great then it's a great, regardless as to whether it ticks all of the boxes of any chosen criteria and what if it just happens to be around at a time when there aren't any/many outstanding rivals? Does that make that great horse any less of one? Granted it boosts the argument if it ticks loads of boxes including beating other top notch horses but the how does Sea The Stars rate based on the quality of opposition that one beat?
If any horses win 8 in a row or 9 and are unbeaten, including multiple Gr1s then I think it's fair enough to say that those kind of horses are right up there with the very best.
By the way, not asking in a stroppy way or anything but when you said regarding SYT "however much you knock him" was that a plural "you" in general or for me personally?
he's put Excelebration in his place,who I personally
rate as a vey good horse.
rate as a vey good horse.
SYT has been slaughtered by a trainer who still admits he hasn't worked the horse out tactically, best distance and best surface.
NOT THE HORSE'S FAULT.
Hope this helps.
NOT THE HORSE'S FAULT.
Hope this helps.
SYT is a good horse but not as good as first thought,
been beaten too many times now.
been beaten too many times now.
Still no excuse for the Aussies to be so bitter and get Max banned.
might be wrong here but was'nt he beaten in
his last race, when trained by ****s?
his last race, when trained by ****s?
ima_mazed66 seriously mate, you hate being wrong dont you.Now whose grasping at straws.
So I missed a 3 yr old race, lets look at the form of these 4 horse’s you have mentioned.
Dubawi gold won a weak group 2 , finally a win after 8 starts from the time he ran 2nd to your great frankel.
Yes that’s 8 starts for one win pfffft.
Immortal Verse ran mid field against the Japanese, in his only start since 3rd to your mighty frankel
Zoffany had 4 starts for no wins since 2nd to your great frankel, the last 3 starts zoffany has been smashed by a total of 33 lens, pfffft.
Grand Prix Boss a Japanese runner, whose had 4 starts since running 27 lens 2nd last to frankel and has been smashed by a total of 23 lens in those 4 starts.
Fact is frankel beat mediocre milers or horses who become spinters or middle distance racehorses. At the mile And never ran out of his comfort zone.
So I missed a 3 yr old race, lets look at the form of these 4 horse’s you have mentioned.
Dubawi gold won a weak group 2 , finally a win after 8 starts from the time he ran 2nd to your great frankel.
Yes that’s 8 starts for one win pfffft.
Immortal Verse ran mid field against the Japanese, in his only start since 3rd to your mighty frankel
Zoffany had 4 starts for no wins since 2nd to your great frankel, the last 3 starts zoffany has been smashed by a total of 33 lens, pfffft.
Grand Prix Boss a Japanese runner, whose had 4 starts since running 27 lens 2nd last to frankel and has been smashed by a total of 23 lens in those 4 starts.
Fact is frankel beat mediocre milers or horses who become spinters or middle distance racehorses. At the mile And never ran out of his comfort zone.
penzance did he play up over night?
a great foe, but we got along.even chatted via messenger.
a great foe, but we got along.even chatted via messenger.
who? Max?
don't know tbh,I suppose too many people take
life too serious on here.At the end of the day it's
only their opinions and banter.
Someone probably got him banned.
don't know tbh,I suppose too many people take
life too serious on here.At the end of the day it's
only their opinions and banter.
Someone probably got him banned.
Like I said Megsy, Frankel breaks horses' hearts and they end up demoralised and would have done the same to Canford Cliffs too but for the phantom injury......look at those horses form pre and then post Frankel beatings. Immortal Verse went into facing Frankel off the back of a hat trick of wins including 2 Gr1s, Dubawi Gold had won 3 of its last 4 and went into the race off the back of 2 victories, Zoffany won 5 of its first 6 races including a Gr1 in the most recent of those wins before going up against Frankel and Grand Prix Boss was a multiple Grade winner in Japan including a Grade 1 in its final race before beaten by Frankel, or do the Japanese horses only count as good ones when beating our third rate ones in your 2m handicap race that your supposed superstar SYT was unable to win despite only carrying 8st 11lbs or 56kg yet Yeats got 9st 4lbs or 59kg in its year?
How many racehorses ever win their first 9 starts let alone classics and multiple Gr1s or win the Newmarket 2000 by as far as Frankel did and have the race won by the 4f mark too? Are you really still struggling to see that Frankel is an exceptional horse and could have run that 2000 race with no opposition and still clocked the same respectable winning time without seeing another horse, which is basically what happened anyway so it wouldn't have mattered what the opposition was like anyway.
Plus when O'Brien states he hasn't worked SYT out yet, that probably means totally ignoring all of the sh1t that came out of Australia about how the horse was a superstar and now lets see how many options he has to try and how many times it has to be beaten before finding its true level.
How many racehorses ever win their first 9 starts let alone classics and multiple Gr1s or win the Newmarket 2000 by as far as Frankel did and have the race won by the 4f mark too? Are you really still struggling to see that Frankel is an exceptional horse and could have run that 2000 race with no opposition and still clocked the same respectable winning time without seeing another horse, which is basically what happened anyway so it wouldn't have mattered what the opposition was like anyway.
Plus when O'Brien states he hasn't worked SYT out yet, that probably means totally ignoring all of the sh1t that came out of Australia about how the horse was a superstar and now lets see how many options he has to try and how many times it has to be beaten before finding its true level.
I dont know if you lads down under have heard the latest.Sheikh Fahad who sponsors the Sussex Stakes over a mile at Goodwood has dangled a tempting carrot for Black Caviars connections to ponder.
He has offered to make the prize money up to £1 million if she and Frankel clash in the race,that is an additional £700,000.What do you guys think,will they be tempted?
He has offered to make the prize money up to £1 million if she and Frankel clash in the race,that is an additional £700,000.What do you guys think,will they be tempted?
Interesting
In February Moody was keen for it to happen....
# Adrian Dunn
From: Herald Sun
February 23, 2012 12:01AM
TRAINER Peter Moody has flagged the possibility of Black Caviar confronting the world's best-rated horse, Frankel, in the Sussex Stakes at Goodwood in late July.
Moody told the Herald Sun he was "quite bullish" about the prospect of the world's No.1 and No.2 horses meeting head-to-head.
But he ruled out the Queen Anne Stakes (1600m) on the opening day of Royal Ascot - Black Caviar is locked into the Group 1 Diamond Jubilee (1200m) on the closing day, June 23.
Moody said the two champions could face off in the Sussex Stakes (1600m), one of the highlights of the Glorious Goodwood carnival. Frankel won the race by five lengths last year.
Moody said the option of extending Black Caviar's Britsh campaign beyond the Diamond Jubilee had been canvassed with the owners when he outlined plans for the mare before Royal Ascot.
"I'm not sure if it (meeting Frankel) will come off, but I'm quite bullish about it," Moody said. "I'm sure there will be plenty of overtures once we get to England, and we'll look at them then."
Moody said the Diamond Jubilee was the only race locked into Black Caviar's schedule that, but the Group 1 July Cup at Newmarket in early July was also a distinct possibility.
Just how deep Black Caviar races into a European campaign will determine whether she returns to Australia to attempt a third Patinack Stakes win.
Other long-range options for Black Caviar include the Hong Kong Sprint, which, if she won, would clinch the $1 million Global Sprint Challenge bonus.
Horses have to win a Global Sprint Challenge race in three different countries during the year. Black Caviar won the first leg in the Lightning Stakes and the Diamond Jubilee would be the second.
In February Moody was keen for it to happen....
# Adrian Dunn
From: Herald Sun
February 23, 2012 12:01AM
TRAINER Peter Moody has flagged the possibility of Black Caviar confronting the world's best-rated horse, Frankel, in the Sussex Stakes at Goodwood in late July.
Moody told the Herald Sun he was "quite bullish" about the prospect of the world's No.1 and No.2 horses meeting head-to-head.
But he ruled out the Queen Anne Stakes (1600m) on the opening day of Royal Ascot - Black Caviar is locked into the Group 1 Diamond Jubilee (1200m) on the closing day, June 23.
Moody said the two champions could face off in the Sussex Stakes (1600m), one of the highlights of the Glorious Goodwood carnival. Frankel won the race by five lengths last year.
Moody said the option of extending Black Caviar's Britsh campaign beyond the Diamond Jubilee had been canvassed with the owners when he outlined plans for the mare before Royal Ascot.
"I'm not sure if it (meeting Frankel) will come off, but I'm quite bullish about it," Moody said. "I'm sure there will be plenty of overtures once we get to England, and we'll look at them then."
Moody said the Diamond Jubilee was the only race locked into Black Caviar's schedule that, but the Group 1 July Cup at Newmarket in early July was also a distinct possibility.
Just how deep Black Caviar races into a European campaign will determine whether she returns to Australia to attempt a third Patinack Stakes win.
Other long-range options for Black Caviar include the Hong Kong Sprint, which, if she won, would clinch the $1 million Global Sprint Challenge bonus.
Horses have to win a Global Sprint Challenge race in three different countries during the year. Black Caviar won the first leg in the Lightning Stakes and the Diamond Jubilee would be the second.
Ima, sorry about the delay. No I did mean in general not you specifically.
There is a lot being taken for granted though. Frankel was a super 2 year old well forward and developed. As he reaches 4 some of the others may be catching up with him as they grow. I doubt HAC will risk him anywhere that is why they mapped out the races they have. His unbeaten record is their sole aim it seems.
In know a lot knock SYT but there is little all else around so I hope something takes Frankel on and doesn't give him 5 uncompetetive races. What a farce that would be.
There is a lot being taken for granted though. Frankel was a super 2 year old well forward and developed. As he reaches 4 some of the others may be catching up with him as they grow. I doubt HAC will risk him anywhere that is why they mapped out the races they have. His unbeaten record is their sole aim it seems.
In know a lot knock SYT but there is little all else around so I hope something takes Frankel on and doesn't give him 5 uncompetetive races. What a farce that would be.
OK brigust1 and no problem with the delay but I for one have not tried to knock or belittle SYT bar the odd bit of ribbing as above but you can't let the chance of a joke go begin now can you?
I think the "problem" with Frankel is that often a horse's career gets mapped out for him either if Plan A fails and they are on a bit of a recovery mission, which was the case with SYT but wasn't with Frankel due to being unbeaten or bar the exception of the Derby, if they miss out on the first opportunity to change the pattern by choice and then consider it too late to test anything new in prep race rather than have to try it in the actual race itself.
I'm still convinced Frankel would have won the Derby too had they tried but because of a combination of the manner in which the horse won the 2000 Gns and the fact the trainer and/or owner had other runners targeted at certain races and distances Frankel could have moved up to, that and the fact the horse remained unbeaten dictated where they went with him. The Abdulla/Cecil combination had World Domination running in the Dante to see if that one could be their Derby horse and the race was too soon after Newmarket for Frankel to run in it anyway and the owner kept his Derby/Arc winner Workforce in training, which there was no point in doing unless they were going to race it and would be silly to then put Frankel in the same races like the Eclipse, King George and Arc and risk devaluing one or the other with his own horse......and ironically one of Frankel's previous victims actually won the KG.
This season if they don't have a Derby horse then it can't clash with Frankel but if they do there are other Derbies to aim at to keep them apart and other 12f races if they move Frankel up to 10f maximum.
I think the "problem" with Frankel is that often a horse's career gets mapped out for him either if Plan A fails and they are on a bit of a recovery mission, which was the case with SYT but wasn't with Frankel due to being unbeaten or bar the exception of the Derby, if they miss out on the first opportunity to change the pattern by choice and then consider it too late to test anything new in prep race rather than have to try it in the actual race itself.
I'm still convinced Frankel would have won the Derby too had they tried but because of a combination of the manner in which the horse won the 2000 Gns and the fact the trainer and/or owner had other runners targeted at certain races and distances Frankel could have moved up to, that and the fact the horse remained unbeaten dictated where they went with him. The Abdulla/Cecil combination had World Domination running in the Dante to see if that one could be their Derby horse and the race was too soon after Newmarket for Frankel to run in it anyway and the owner kept his Derby/Arc winner Workforce in training, which there was no point in doing unless they were going to race it and would be silly to then put Frankel in the same races like the Eclipse, King George and Arc and risk devaluing one or the other with his own horse......and ironically one of Frankel's previous victims actually won the KG.
This season if they don't have a Derby horse then it can't clash with Frankel but if they do there are other Derbies to aim at to keep them apart and other 12f races if they move Frankel up to 10f maximum.
I can't have the Nathaniel thing Ima. Frankel beat him 1/2 length and SYT beat him 2 1/2 lengths giving him 5lb. You can't pick isolated bit of form to suit. And my guess is Nathaniel was a better horse when SYT beat him.
My guess is they will just try to remain unbeaten, no matter what. As long as the media recognise that. He is acclaimed the best horse in the world almost daily but that is like saying Floyd Mayweather Jnr is the best boxer in the world. He is undoubtedly the best miler but is he the best sprinter or stayer? That would probably be 'no'. If the media hype him too much why should they try to enhance his stud value?
My guess is they will just try to remain unbeaten, no matter what. As long as the media recognise that. He is acclaimed the best horse in the world almost daily but that is like saying Floyd Mayweather Jnr is the best boxer in the world. He is undoubtedly the best miler but is he the best sprinter or stayer? That would probably be 'no'. If the media hype him too much why should they try to enhance his stud value?
I wasn't using the Nathaniel KG win as any kind of judgement of from and more just pointing it out as an ironic afterthought, although it does support my previous argument that even a fairly decent 12f horse as a 3YO would still have to be fairly useful as a 2YO at a mile.
If I was to go on and make a comparison on the two pieces of formlines, the first thing that stands out is that both Frankel and Nathaniel were making their racecourse debuts when meeting, whereas SYT was a 18 times raced, battle hardened, much travelled 5YO going into the Ascot race and racing at its best trip compared to Nathaniel being a still fairly inexperienced 3YO having having its first try at the trip and dropping back to 10f when the only 3 races from 6 runs the horse had won were all at 12f, with the best of those almost won by default when of its main rivals, one has had 2 iffy runs at Ascot now and threw away any chance of winning by hanging and was not the same horse as it was at 3, another broke down and the other pulled hard early and his inexperienced big race jockey sat back too far and allowed the others to get first run on him......add to that Nathaniel was too keen early and pulled a bit with no pacemaker this time and so ended up trying to make all and kick early off the final bend. Plus bear in mind too that the 4YOs in the King Gergoe like Workforce, St Nicholas Abbey and Rewilding were having to give the 3YO Nathaniel 12lbs compared to only 5lbs that SYT gave away and yet Workforce was still only beaten 2¾L despite practically hanging across the width of the Ascot's run in.
As to whether Frankel is the best horse in the world then that's debatable but probable too and for those who think Black Caviar is, you could ask the same about her too, only in her case is she the best miler or stayer but whenever you make a claim for the best horse in the world, presumably it's done so under the heading of the horse's favoured trip.
If I was to go on and make a comparison on the two pieces of formlines, the first thing that stands out is that both Frankel and Nathaniel were making their racecourse debuts when meeting, whereas SYT was a 18 times raced, battle hardened, much travelled 5YO going into the Ascot race and racing at its best trip compared to Nathaniel being a still fairly inexperienced 3YO having having its first try at the trip and dropping back to 10f when the only 3 races from 6 runs the horse had won were all at 12f, with the best of those almost won by default when of its main rivals, one has had 2 iffy runs at Ascot now and threw away any chance of winning by hanging and was not the same horse as it was at 3, another broke down and the other pulled hard early and his inexperienced big race jockey sat back too far and allowed the others to get first run on him......add to that Nathaniel was too keen early and pulled a bit with no pacemaker this time and so ended up trying to make all and kick early off the final bend. Plus bear in mind too that the 4YOs in the King Gergoe like Workforce, St Nicholas Abbey and Rewilding were having to give the 3YO Nathaniel 12lbs compared to only 5lbs that SYT gave away and yet Workforce was still only beaten 2¾L despite practically hanging across the width of the Ascot's run in.
As to whether Frankel is the best horse in the world then that's debatable but probable too and for those who think Black Caviar is, you could ask the same about her too, only in her case is she the best miler or stayer but whenever you make a claim for the best horse in the world, presumably it's done so under the heading of the horse's favoured trip.
Nathaniel had nearly 3 months spell before racing SYT freshen and aimed at that race, not an afterthought.
you are so full of excuses mazed.
he owner kept his Derby/Arc winner Workforce in training, which there was no point in doing unless they were going to race [b]it and would be silly to then put Frankel in the same races like the Eclipse, King George and Arc and risk devaluing one or the other with his own horse......and ironically one of Frankel's previous victims actually won the KG.[/b]
so you admit in your thoughts Frankel was given easy options to protect his status and stud fee's and never ran out of his comfort zone.
you are so full of excuses mazed.
he owner kept his Derby/Arc winner Workforce in training, which there was no point in doing unless they were going to race [b]it and would be silly to then put Frankel in the same races like the Eclipse, King George and Arc and risk devaluing one or the other with his own horse......and ironically one of Frankel's previous victims actually won the KG.[/b]
so you admit in your thoughts Frankel was given easy options to protect his status and stud fee's and never ran out of his comfort zone.
Megsy,do yourself a favour and fire up the barbie and go and get pi$$ed or even more than you must be already.Any credibility you had has gone walkabout looking for dreamtime.
I meant me mentioning the irony of Nathaniel as the KG winner and a previous Frankel victim was an after thought on my part, not on the horse's campaign but that's fair enough as it's sometimes difficult to tell on here when reading rather than hearing it said.
As for the other bit about protecting a horse's status and stud value, it's more a case of Frankel not doing anything wrong to merit a change as much as anything else but also to keep the same owner's two horses from racing each other, which would have been a bit silly really and assuming they raced in the same country, do you reckon if the same owner had Black Caviar winning for him at 6f and Frankel winning for him at a mile that he would be keen to race against each other at 7f?
If Abdulla/Cecil didn't think they had other Derby candidates (which they initially did) then maybe Frankel would have run in that, or if the Dante wasn't so close to the 2000 Gns they could have tried the step up to 10f first instead of jumping from a mile to 12f in one hit and then dropped back to a mile if Frankel didn't stay, but none of that happened because none of that happened and as I said previously, what was the point of keeping Workforce in training as a 4YO and not running it or running it against Frankel when they have the same owner. Maybe if WF had to miss the Eclipse and Frankel had been previously stepped up in trip for a Derby trials and/or a Derby then we might even have seen Frankel take on SYT in the Eclipse.
As for the other bit about protecting a horse's status and stud value, it's more a case of Frankel not doing anything wrong to merit a change as much as anything else but also to keep the same owner's two horses from racing each other, which would have been a bit silly really and assuming they raced in the same country, do you reckon if the same owner had Black Caviar winning for him at 6f and Frankel winning for him at a mile that he would be keen to race against each other at 7f?
If Abdulla/Cecil didn't think they had other Derby candidates (which they initially did) then maybe Frankel would have run in that, or if the Dante wasn't so close to the 2000 Gns they could have tried the step up to 10f first instead of jumping from a mile to 12f in one hit and then dropped back to a mile if Frankel didn't stay, but none of that happened because none of that happened and as I said previously, what was the point of keeping Workforce in training as a 4YO and not running it or running it against Frankel when they have the same owner. Maybe if WF had to miss the Eclipse and Frankel had been previously stepped up in trip for a Derby trials and/or a Derby then we might even have seen Frankel take on SYT in the Eclipse.
Ima they are full of shyte,either BCs trainer is a wind up dipstick claiming 12f would not be a problem and citing the Sussex as being bullish about V Frankel.Or megsy and co are 2 cent punters without a clue.............imo.
Both..........Moodey if full of bull and should hand her over to Megsy to train.
Scared shitless.nap
Both..........Moodey if full of bull and should hand her over to Megsy to train.
Scared shitless.nap
MOLE...started on the turps already "socks"??
got to love that nic "SOCKS"
saves me going to the BC , frankel clash thread.
You have to laugh though at megsy and his comment about Frankel's connections wanting things on their terms so maybe he could tell us what were the conditions and where was the race to be run when Black Caviar's connections made a challenge they knew full well wouldn't be accepted when Frankel already had a set of targets mapped out. As for the £1million being chicken feed for Aussie Gr1 horses, maybe he can explain then why BC's targets are the Diamond Jubilee Stakes at RA and the July Cup, which were worth £226,840 and £227,080 to the winners in 2011?
firstly, only 3 days ago his season was mapped out.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/sir-henry-cecil-plots-campaign-for-frankel/1009706/
secondly, why race for pittance in the Diamond Jubilee Stakes and july cup, if you follow things you will read where its well docuemented the owners want to meet the queen and one race is part of the world series with a $million dollar bonus....but you know everything dont you mazed...
got to love that nic "SOCKS"
saves me going to the BC , frankel clash thread.
You have to laugh though at megsy and his comment about Frankel's connections wanting things on their terms so maybe he could tell us what were the conditions and where was the race to be run when Black Caviar's connections made a challenge they knew full well wouldn't be accepted when Frankel already had a set of targets mapped out. As for the £1million being chicken feed for Aussie Gr1 horses, maybe he can explain then why BC's targets are the Diamond Jubilee Stakes at RA and the July Cup, which were worth £226,840 and £227,080 to the winners in 2011?
firstly, only 3 days ago his season was mapped out.
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/sir-henry-cecil-plots-campaign-for-frankel/1009706/
secondly, why race for pittance in the Diamond Jubilee Stakes and july cup, if you follow things you will read where its well docuemented the owners want to meet the queen and one race is part of the world series with a $million dollar bonus....but you know everything dont you mazed...
A more refined and accurate reply than you have ever made megsy.£1million not to be sniffed at if she is the best in the world as you reckon,even if beaten wont affect paddock value,ditto Frankels stud value.
Btw my mother shared the $000000000000000000s Aus you paid for her donkey.
Btw my mother shared the $000000000000000000s Aus you paid for her donkey.
sold the donkey back to a pom for $1,00,00,000,000,00..told him it cooks dinner and pours drinks and can count past 10, whose the fool now
Btw megsy,I do know the value of £1million sterling,well documented I inherited £8.2mil last October.
Poor family............that is why you got mummys apple of her eye for peanuts.lol
Poor family............that is why you got mummys apple of her eye for peanuts.lol
Not me,never bought a thing from Aussies..........bad enough my mate married one and she started writing books about him because she was full of crap.
Pamella Stephenson..............oh no she is a Kiwi.........like SYT is now he has been shown up?
Pamella Stephenson..............oh no she is a Kiwi.........like SYT is now he has been shown up?
Unfortunately part of the inheritance is in Hobart,I hoped it was to do with food mixers but alas Tasmania.Going very cheap btw $840,000 Aus...........£600,000 US.
Spot on megsy an alien Auss family,fook all to do with the Big Yins lot.
get your dollar movement right sunshine, the AUD is worth more than the USD, think i could sell you anything by the sounds of it, not a bright fella are you
enjoy your day "socks" im off to enjoy the sunshine
enjoy your day "socks" im off to enjoy the sunshine
i now see US is us...lol...still the pound is worth less than the mighty AUD
I doubt you could sell an ice cube in a desert megsy.............it was a pis$ take ie £25 sterling and it is yours.
I dont live in £ sterling land btw and I pay people to deal with backwaters like yours,mimimum wage other than my pool cleaner and house staff.
I dont live in £ sterling land btw and I pay people to deal with backwaters like yours,mimimum wage other than my pool cleaner and house staff.
Fishing for Tuna tomorrow megsy Sant'Antioco...............might use the $AUS to finance it,just because I can.
Btw my mum appreciates updates of the horse,silly old git but I love her.
Btw my mum appreciates updates of the horse,silly old git but I love her.
OK first of all megsy I was on about Frankel's last season campaign having been previously mapped out which is when I believe the faux offer was originally made.
Plus I've met the Queen myself and can tell BC's owners it's no big deal anyway. I had some photographs on show at an art exhibition and she came along the line to meet and greet everyone who was exhibiting and our convo went a bit like this.
Queen: And what do you do? (I'm guessing she's used that line before)
Me: I've got some photos on display.
Queen: Oh right, I have a cousin who's a photographer.
Me: Funnily enough, I have a cousin who's a queen.
Queen looks bewildered and moves along the line and my tutor's face was a picture, which was quite fitting considering we were in an art gallery.
Anyway back to the racing. What I do know is £1million is worth more than $1million and seeing as though the owners are over here anyway hoping to meet the Queen (wouldn't they have to win to do that anyway?) why not just stay a bit longer and go to Goodwood for the Frankel clash? As GT-Mole said, £1million is not to be sniffed at....although the full £1million might not go to the winner but the bulk surely would.
The Kings' Stand, Diamond Jubilee and July Cup are all part of the Global Sprint Challenge and the first two are at Royal Ascot and the latter two are targets anyway so why not come over and win all 3 within around 3 weeks, have another fortnight off and take on Frankel? You're always telling is our sprinters are sh1t and how your horses can take their racing, so why not? You even have a ready made excuse too by saying the horse had gone to the well one time too many.
Plus I've met the Queen myself and can tell BC's owners it's no big deal anyway. I had some photographs on show at an art exhibition and she came along the line to meet and greet everyone who was exhibiting and our convo went a bit like this.
Queen: And what do you do? (I'm guessing she's used that line before)
Me: I've got some photos on display.
Queen: Oh right, I have a cousin who's a photographer.
Me: Funnily enough, I have a cousin who's a queen.
Queen looks bewildered and moves along the line and my tutor's face was a picture, which was quite fitting considering we were in an art gallery.
Anyway back to the racing. What I do know is £1million is worth more than $1million and seeing as though the owners are over here anyway hoping to meet the Queen (wouldn't they have to win to do that anyway?) why not just stay a bit longer and go to Goodwood for the Frankel clash? As GT-Mole said, £1million is not to be sniffed at....although the full £1million might not go to the winner but the bulk surely would.
The Kings' Stand, Diamond Jubilee and July Cup are all part of the Global Sprint Challenge and the first two are at Royal Ascot and the latter two are targets anyway so why not come over and win all 3 within around 3 weeks, have another fortnight off and take on Frankel? You're always telling is our sprinters are sh1t and how your horses can take their racing, so why not? You even have a ready made excuse too by saying the horse had gone to the well one time too many.
mazed, still dribbling...writers cramp yet?love the bold writing, pure arrogance
Diamond Jubilee Stakes at RA and the July Cup, which were worth £226,840 and £227,080 to the winners in 2011?
thats around $385,000 AUD..nothing to dance about. and whats wrong with the 6 lady part owners wanting to meet the queen?
Frankels connections were offered a match race when parties met at the melbourne spring carnival over a distance of 7f and they declined the offer, now they want a horse whose coming out of her racing season and a mare at that, to think about after running in her planned 6f race to step up another 2f against a specialised miler on tracks that actually are equvilent to 9-10f in australia...
just remember Frankel was a matured race horse for his age, 2 and 3yrs...worry about your locals having improved more on the off season than a cocky invite.
Diamond Jubilee Stakes at RA and the July Cup, which were worth £226,840 and £227,080 to the winners in 2011?
thats around $385,000 AUD..nothing to dance about. and whats wrong with the 6 lady part owners wanting to meet the queen?
Frankels connections were offered a match race when parties met at the melbourne spring carnival over a distance of 7f and they declined the offer, now they want a horse whose coming out of her racing season and a mare at that, to think about after running in her planned 6f race to step up another 2f against a specialised miler on tracks that actually are equvilent to 9-10f in australia...
just remember Frankel was a matured race horse for his age, 2 and 3yrs...worry about your locals having improved more on the off season than a cocky invite.
The worry is megsy..........lady part owners......plenty of them in Singapore........the big question is which parts do they still own?
Australia has only one lady and he has retired.
England might be a dumping ground but unlike Australia has not embraced ladyboys outside of London (allegedly) and dont be fooled by queens,only one,cant name him but if you read enough posts you will find him.nap
FFS I am going to Engerland on Saturday.
Australia has only one lady and he has retired.
England might be a dumping ground but unlike Australia has not embraced ladyboys outside of London (allegedly) and dont be fooled by queens,only one,cant name him but if you read enough posts you will find him.nap
FFS I am going to Engerland on Saturday.
This must be the most boring fooking thread i've ever had the misfortune to read.
Anyone with half a c--nting brain can work out what this horse is all about
Anyone with half a c--nting brain can work out what this horse is all about
Which horse would that be motley?
The one my mother sold to the Aussies or is there another one bugging your pea brain?
The one my mother sold to the Aussies or is there another one bugging your pea brain?
LOL....are you really that thick megsy?
First of all the only bolding I do is the person's name I'm responding to so as it stands out and they can choose to read it by seeing it's about them, then others can choose to read or not read when they also see who it's intended for. The only other bold writing I can see is you quoting me, unless you think by me stating the facts that that's arrogance?
Plus the reason why I'm asking are you really that thick is you seem to be suggesting that £1million is chicken feed for an Aussie Gr1 horse and so I pointed out it's more than the £226,840 and £227,080 that Black Caviar is possibly coming over for anyway. I know that's not much on the grand scale of things and that's the very point I'm making, although it still compares well to what BC has raced for most of the time anyway. You then said one of the reasons she could come over is that those two races are part of the Global Sprint Series where there is a $1million bonus for winning 3 of the 10 races to justify why she will aim for those and not the £1million, but are now going on about those two races' prize money being "nothing to dance about" and apparently therefore arguing with yourself. I thought she wasn't coming for the money but because the races made up part of the Global Sprint series $1million bonus!
So anyway let me get this right, you are knocking Frankel's connections for not racing on Black Caviar's connection's terms but then making excuses for Black Caviar when the terms seem to favour Frankel. Isn't that what's know as double standards?
First of all the only bolding I do is the person's name I'm responding to so as it stands out and they can choose to read it by seeing it's about them, then others can choose to read or not read when they also see who it's intended for. The only other bold writing I can see is you quoting me, unless you think by me stating the facts that that's arrogance?
Plus the reason why I'm asking are you really that thick is you seem to be suggesting that £1million is chicken feed for an Aussie Gr1 horse and so I pointed out it's more than the £226,840 and £227,080 that Black Caviar is possibly coming over for anyway. I know that's not much on the grand scale of things and that's the very point I'm making, although it still compares well to what BC has raced for most of the time anyway. You then said one of the reasons she could come over is that those two races are part of the Global Sprint Series where there is a $1million bonus for winning 3 of the 10 races to justify why she will aim for those and not the £1million, but are now going on about those two races' prize money being "nothing to dance about" and apparently therefore arguing with yourself. I thought she wasn't coming for the money but because the races made up part of the Global Sprint series $1million bonus!
So anyway let me get this right, you are knocking Frankel's connections for not racing on Black Caviar's connection's terms but then making excuses for Black Caviar when the terms seem to favour Frankel. Isn't that what's know as double standards?
So anyway let me get this right, you are knocking Frankel's connections for not racing on Black Caviar's connection's terms but then making excuses for Black Caviar when the terms seem to favour Frankel. Isn't that what's know as double standards?
for a guy quoted many times saying frankel would beat Black Caviar at 5f,6f,7f,8f you make the most retard statement. black caviars terms...ffs
not as thick as some ringht maze
for a guy quoted many times saying frankel would beat Black Caviar at 5f,6f,7f,8f you make the most retard statement. black caviars terms...ffs
not as thick as some ringht maze
Erm, see that little S shaped thingy on the end of the word terms? Well that means it's a plural and distance is only one factor involved in those terms, now see if you can work out any more or would you like a few clues?.............And I didn't actually say you were thick, I asked if you really were that thick and so far you are doing very little to suggest otherwise.
like i said, not as thick as some
your name aint john by any chance
your name aint john by any chance
LOL....those links never work in my browser and it's the one I'm used to so am happy to stick with it so sorry, none of that means anything to me but it is quite amusing and has a certain irony to seemingly be called thick by someone you have been running rings around for ages now and could quite easily lose them and find them again at any time that pleases.
You can always tell anyway when it's hit home and someone has embarrassed themselves when you highlight a specific point and ask them to address that and they conveniently ignore it but go off on a tangent and have to resort to abuse.
You can always tell anyway when it's hit home and someone has embarrassed themselves when you highlight a specific point and ask them to address that and they conveniently ignore it but go off on a tangent and have to resort to abuse.
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