Ebor and jockeys allowances.

ones a listed race and one isnt.

Claimers are only anygoodif you think they ride just as good as a professional.   Maybe a claimer is worth letting ride rather than a journeyman jock but not as good as the top lads ?

u tell us koo, it would really depend on the horse having a realistic chance of winning without the claim or maybe the connectshuns not waning to shell out the 10%if its a steering job, some mean mofo's about

I realise that Koo... but still seems perculiar to me that you can claim in a 130k h'cap race but not in a 17k h'cap race. Over todays distance 5lbs = 4/5 lengths, some of these outsiders would have more chance with the weight off imo. Better hope that swifty doesn't beat you by a length or two.

What can you say!

Very fair point stewarts rise, with only 3 appretice ridden horses in the field the winner and runner up were ridden by half decent 3lb claimers. Exacta paid £370.50p 6 bets a £1 would have been a nice little earner by anyones standards.

Many a true word spoken in jest !

Franny Norton - Deposki 1991
Fergyl Lynch - Clerkenwell 1996
F Carroll - Sesenta 2009

other apprentice winners

Koo you not even slightly wondering what might of been if you'd claimed ?

One thing people dismiss the effect of the horse actually physically carrying 3lbs for 1m6f in softish ground. It not all about how well handicapped etc , the horse still has to carry it and some manage this better than others.

Its certainly no coincince for me that the first two home were claiming .
I know most people in racing would just say the'd have finished 1st and 2nd with a jockey on but its impossible to be accurate about the significance of carrying those 3lbs.

Personally i strongly believe the 3lbs made the difference between 1st and 2nd and say 3rd or 4th at the very least.

im more thinking what would have happened if fallon had been able to hold him and not let the horse cart him forward for the opening half mile, rather than worry if 3lb would make the difference.

ttt

They certainly used to be able to claim in EVERY flat handicap,but not in conditions races worth a certain amount. I presume pattern status has superseded the latter.
Back in the 60s you couldn't claim in the big NH handicaps. That changed in the 70s but still applies in the GN of course.

Koo....     20 Aug 11 07:49 
ones a listed race and one isnt.

Claimers are only anygoodif you think they ride just as good as a professional.   Maybe a claimer is worth letting ride rather than a journeyman jock but not as good as the top lads ?

Not sure I entirely agree with this although I can see why in part it was said.

A claimer clearly won't be as good an option as a more experienced top notch jockey off levels but that's where his claim offsets those disadvantages. Louis Steward yesterday has finished 2¼L clear of Paul Hanagan when able to claim but I understand it's unlikely he would have been booked for the ride in the first place if he couldn't claim but would he have won without the help of his claim once he could?

Looks like Varian and Ellison have learnt there lesson from last year when the 1st 3 were apprentice ridden, Battersea back in 4th and Seymoor a nk behind in 5th both have 5lb claimers on top this year!

3:05 York 15 Jul 2017

58th John Smith's Cup Handicap
(Class 2)

there

re-reading stewarts opening post - he probably  means the SAME 1m 6f distance (as the Ebor) John Smith's Silver Cup - and not the 1m 2f John Smith's Cup...

- although his, "worth just 17k," does not fit

That race is not a Handicap.

2:30 York 15 Jul 2017

John Smith's Silver Cup Stakes (Listed Race)
(Class 1) (3yo+) (1m5f188yds) 1m6f Good
1st £28,355

@onlooker -- the OP is from 2011 so presumably refers to the Silver Cup (Listed, handicap) on 9 July that year.

Battersea looks well in for it this year

1st and 3rd again from 5 horses ridden by claimers!

This race Onlooker, incidentally Tactician the winner came 2nd to Moyenne Corniche in that years Ebor ridden by a young apprentice named Joseph O'Brien(3).

2:40
York
9 Jul 2011
John Smith's Silver Cup (Handicap) (Listed Race)
(Class 1) (0-110, 3yo+) (1m5f188yds) 1m6f Good
1st £17,760 2nd £6,717 3rd £3,357 4th £1,677
Pedigrees
Comments
Result
Analysis
My Ratings
POS. (DRAW)   
HORSE / SP
TRAINER / JOCKEY
AGE    WGT    OR    TS    RPR    MR   
1 (9)

Tactician 17/2
Eddie Ahern
Michael Bell
4    95     97    89    108    –   
Made all, ridden along well over 2f out, driven over 1f out, kept on gamely inside final furlong (op 10-1)
2 (12)
1¼
Fox Hunt (IRE) 8/1
Neil Callan
Mark Johnston
4    100 v    106    97    115    –   
Took keen hold early, chased winner, headway over 2f out, ridden well over 1f out, driven to challenge entering final furlong, no extra last 100yds
3 (13)
2¼ [3½]
Western Pearl 25/1
Dane O'Neill
William Knight
4    90  Out-of-Handicaps 1    92    80    98    –   
Held up towards rear, headway 4f out, switched right and ridden to chase leaders 2f out, driven and stayed on inside final furlong, nearest finish (tchd 28-1)
4 (20)
1¾ [5¼]
Deauville Flyer 12/1
Tom Eaves
Tim Easterby
5    92     94    79    98    –   
Steadied and switched left to inner start, held up towards rear, headway and wide straight, effort 3f out, ridden to chase leaders 2f out, soon driven and kept on same pace
5 (14)
nse [5¼]
Eternal Heart (IRE) 7/1
Jimmy Quinn
Mark Johnston
3    82     95    80    98    –   
In touch, headway to chase leaders over 3f out, ridden along well over 2f out, driven well over 1f out and kept on same pace (op 11-2)
6 (10)
¾ [6]
Icon Dream (IRE) 20/1
Ted Durcan
David Simcock
4    94     96    80    98    –   
Held up towards rear, steady headway 4f out, ridden 3f out, kept on final 2f, nearest finish (op 25-1)
7 (3)
hd [6¼]
La Vecchia Scuola (IRE) 25/1
Daniel Tudhope
Jim Goldie
7    90  Out-of-Handicaps 1    92    76    94    –   
Towards rear, headway over 3f out, ridden over 2f out, stayed on well approaching final furlong, nearest finish (tchd 33-1)
8 (6)
½ [6¾]
Tominator 14/1
Paul Pickard
Reg Hollinshead
4    95     97    80    98    –   
Held up and behind, good headway on inner 3f out, ridden over 2f out, stayed on, nearest finish (op 11-1)
9 (18)
4 [10¾]
Rock A Doodle Doo (IRE) 5/1F
Phillip Makin
William Jarvis
4    95     97    74    93    –   
Held up and behind, headway 4f out, switched right to stands' rails 3f out, effort and not much room over 2f out, soon ridden and no impression (op 13-2)
10 (5)
nk [11]
High Office 20/1
Frederik Tylicki
Richard Fahey
5    92     94    71    89    –   
Chased leaders, ridden along well over 3f out, driven over 2f out and soon weakened (tchd 25-1)
11 (19)
1½ [12½]
Sabotage (UAE) 25/1
Mickael Barzalona
Saeed bin Suroor
5    913     105    80    98    –   
In touch, headway to chase leaders 4f out, ridden along 3f out, driven over 2f out and gradually weakened (op 22-1)
12 (2)
12 [24½]
Vulcanite (IRE) 8/1
Jim Crowley
Ralph Beckett
4    911     103    61    80    –   
Tracked leading pair, ridden along 4f out, driven 3f out and gradually weakened (tchd 9-1 in places)
13 (1)
¾ [25¼]
The Betchworth Kid 28/1
Andrew Elliott
Alan King
6    911     103    60    78    –   
Held up, always towards rear (op 25-1)
14 (15)
2¾ [28]
Ajaan 20/1
Tom Queally
Sir Henry Cecil
7    99 b    101    54    73    –   
Midfield, ridden along over 6f out, soon weakened (tchd 18-1)
15 (8)
6 [34]
Total Command 18/1
Ryan Moore
Sir Michael Stoute
4    99     101    45    64    –   
Took keen hold early, tracked leaders on inner, headway 4f out, ridden to chase leaders 3f out, weakened over 2f out (tchd 20-1)
16 (4)
hd [34¼]
Theology 8/1
William Buick
Jeremy Noseda
4    912     104    48    67    –   
Always towards rear (op 11-1)
17 (11)
2 [36¼]
Cracking Lass (IRE) 18/1
Paul Hanagan
Richard Fahey
4    92     94    35    54    –   
Always towards rear (op 25-1 tchd 16-1)
18 (16)
23 [59¼]
Woolfall Treasure 66/1
James Doyle
Gary Moore
6    99     101    7    29    –   
In touch, ridden along on outer 6f out, weakened 4f out

and sir mark once again did his job perfectly , had the horse handicapped spot on to win the race only to be do by this ridiculous loophole.

Suppose you could argue that he could also have booked a good value claimer! Wouldn't disagree that the 5lb claim has proved key though.

and they 'have to' really book one these days , thats not good for the race imo

we don't want this race to become the 'apprentice derby'

Essentially agree. If claimers aren't allowed to claim in pattern company why should they be able to do so in the leading handicaps which are more valuable than plenty of pattern races? There are plenty of races at a lower level for young riders to "learn their trade" and take advantage of their claim. The claims are probably too big anyway these days with riders starting out much more practicsed than in days gone by and often with a stack of pony riding winners under their belts.

Here we go again, since 2009, 5 winners from 9 runnings have been ridden by an apprentice from not many runners per year.
2017 1st and 3rd from 5 runners
2016 1st, 2nd and 3rd from 5 runners
2015 2nd and 5th from 4 runners
2014 1st from 3 runners
2013 Unplaced from 1 runner
2012 Unplaced from 2 runners
2011 1st and 2nd from 3 runners(when this thread started)
2010 Unplaced from 2 runners
2009 1st from 2 runners.
There you go 5 winners, 3 2nds and 2 3rds from 27 qualifiers in last 9 years with 4 of the winners ridden by 5lbs claimers.
Today there are just 3 apprentice ridden horses, only 1 ridden by a 5lbs claimer, the bottom of the h'cap Mountain Bell
Always worth noting the Irish horses sent here as well with 4 winners in those 9 runnings, particular note of Mullins horses who has 2 today but both short in the market Stratum and Whiskey Sour, but the 4 winners came from 4 different trainers so a careful eye on unbeaten this year Sea The Lion who has twice btn a Mullins horse Gustavus Vassa rated 97 in last 2 runs with clear daylight between the 2nd and 3rd horses.
Conclusion
Mountain Bell and Sea the Lion both EW and a small place bet on Scotland and Nakeeta.

with the prize money going up to £1m next year they should classify the race as a Group 1 Handicap in the same way they do for the Melbourne Cup

Mountain Bell good each way bet with a good 5lb claimer aboard.

Hope so acey, draw not so good though.

Not a strong fancy stew but threw a few quid each way at big odds.

It's also worth noting that only 1 horse has ever won this race twice and that's getting on for nearly 100 years ago, so although Nakeeta is only 6lbs higher than last year and has the best draw of the apprentice ridden horses then i think a place is probably the best it can hope for.

Crowned Eagle but concerned that it is drifting.

Apprentices all unplaced this year, no luck in the draw, Nakeeta the highest drawn ran best about 7th. Sea the Lion getting 3rd saved my stakes.
Have to wait for next year now, hopefully with better draws.