today showed how superior Kauto is to Denman

People will look back at the current crop of chasers and realise just how special Kauto Star actually is.

today demonstrated that Denman cant act right handed or on fast going

yiikes ! - :D

www.specsaverstomorrow.com

Denman is a proper national hunt horse though a real unit and a great lepper so powerful out and out galloper he is a true national hunt horse imo. Kauto brilliant horse round flat track - Kempton on noce jumping ground amazing horse. For me not a proper real NH type like Denman. Two totally different horses but for me you cannot say kauto is superior

apology accepted raz :)

a stupid idea to run him today........think you will find that kauto hasnt run/won too often in april either

apology accepted raz :)

denman looked a very versatile horse today .. with the steering gone he still managed to get round the bends ,must take some doin ,once seen a drunk donkey doing similar .

but why did they run ? dont the greatest nh trainer know this ?

both truly great horses and niether would be as great without the other ,

Why not?

Without Denman, Kauto would be even greater shirley

just my opinion , those gold cup battles have etched the pair on the memory like no others in nat hunt

Its not like Lennon & McCartney

Kauto`s versatlity is unique....Arkle would not have won a Tingle Creek, fact

They are both great horses. :) Let's now post happy positive things....How about War of Attrition today?! Doesn't look ready to hang the stockings up yet but well done. Lovely end.

good pont ast, Wars effort today was amazing and highlights the wonder that is NH racing

Arkle wasn't wrapped up in cotton wool either.He went into handicaps carrying 12-7 and giving 3 stone.

I never said he was, but he wouldnt have won a Tingle Creek

Why not?

wouldnt have had the speed.....

Had no problem laying up with the pace carrying welter burdens and giving weight away.

over 2 miles on fast going???

Arkle won the Powers Gold Cup over 2 1/4 miles.

on any going

we will agree to disagree :)

YORKYPETE. 21 Apr 23:12

Kauto`s versatlity is unique....Arkle would not have won a Tingle Creek, fact

Whether he would or would not have won a Tingle Creek can be argued about, but to put 'fact' beside this statement just because it's your opinion when you have no way of proving it is just plain silly.

Actually the tingle creeks that he won were run on soft going and the opposition was pretty moderate.

no need to get abusive yab, Im just stating my opinion, sorry if I wored it incorrectly. The facts are Kautos achievments over 2 miles compared with Arkles are far superior

Kauto Star is an outstanding horse over 2m to 3m+ both left handed and right handed undulating and flat tracks on going from heavy to goodtofirm . He deserves his place up there with the greats for his King George performances. 13 grade one chase wins must be close to a record.

Denman was an outanding hurdler and is an outstanding chaser going left handed over 3m+ soft ground especially at Newbury. Two fantastic handicap weight carrying performances in the Hennessey only matched by Trabolgan and beaten by Arkle and Mill house. His grade one chase record is nowhere near that of Kauto Star although he was impressive in the 2008 Gold Cup on soft ground.

I've just watched the race today today and I am not sure what the problem was, he was hanging and jumping left at the first two fences before they even got near a bend. Unruly and unsteerable today probably has as much to do with the ground and the hard races he has had as going right handed, (which is clearly not his game). Probably not the same horse after his heart scare maybe the Hennessey floored him.

I would have Kauto Star up with the great Chasers for his wide range of performances over the years. I would say Denman has put in three great performances.

I don't think my post is abusive.
Something is not a fact unless it has (or hasn't) happened.

Thanks SA for confirming my views

yab you say you are not abusive but why say my statement is plain silly.
Kauto ddi something that Arkle never did .....correct?

That is not what you wrote though.
You said it was a fact that Arkle wouldn't have won a Tingle Creek.

But also Arkle was never beaten by a horse such as Our Vic at level weights.I would imagine he would have had to give 2 stone or upwards.

ok so now we are splitting hairs. It is my opinion Arkle would not have had the speed to win a Tingle Creek (and if you were honest you would probably agree)

Desert Orchid was more versatile than any of them surely

I don't agree with your assessment of Kauto Star.Run him in the Hennessy giving away lumps of weight and see how good he is.

AND bIND, NOW YOU ARE BEING SILLY AND YOU KNOW YOU ARE. KAUTO HAD HAD ENOUGH WHEN IT RAN AGAINST OLD VIC

I wouldn't agree with you there tobermory.

I love Kauto but he was hardly unbeatable over the 2 1/2 and shorter distances though was he?

Beaten in the Haldon Gold Cup and Old Roan, fell in the Champion Chase, not to mention the remount jobbie behind Mistral De La Cour?

Surely Flyingbolt has to be up there too when it comes to versatility.
Winning a Champion Chase by 15 lengths and in the same season winning an Irish National conceding 40lbs+ to the 2nd and 3rd.

well i'm no NH expert but i remember Dessie :)

Won The Tingle Creek and The Irish National in the space of 18 months didn't he ( as well as 2 KGs and The GC in the same spell) ?

brother you are talking about KAUTOS YOUNGER DAYS

He's only run over shorter than 3 miles once since then though hasn't he?

NO

YORKYPETE. 21 Apr 23:23 - Re Arkle


I never said he was, but he wouldnt have won a Tingle Creek

- thats a bold statement considering Arkle met the ill fated 2m champ Dunkirk in the King George. Dunkirk before unfortunately fatally falling about a mile to go went hell for leather. He fell having run his heart out only to have Arkle running all over him at the time.
Your seriously think he could not win a Tingle Creek?

Denman 2-1 Kauto Star

and I love both horses

daft thread imo

Shirley shome mishtake Yorky?

FFS HOW OLD ARE YOU GUYS? IM ONLY A YOUNGSTER AND NOT LIVING IN T PAST

Far From Trouble 21 Apr 23:57


Denman 2-1 Kauto Star

and I love both horses

daft thread imo

DAFT REPLY IMO. KAUTO IS FAR QUICKER/VERSATILE THAN DENMAN

does no one else agree that Dessie was more versatile than all these? :0

No Contest imo

I'm sticking with Flyingbolt

AND JESSE OWENS WAS BETTER THAN USAIN BOLT :)

Jesse was more versatile imo, Usain can't find a stride to jump.

BROTHER AM I NOT A SISTER TO YOU

Yorky:

Flyingbolt won an Irish National carrying 12-7 conceding the 2nd 40lbs and the 3rd 42lbs.
He won the Champion Chase by 15 lengths in the same season and was only beaten 3 lengths in the Champion Hurdle 24 hours later.

That is a fact.

Kauto Star, great horse that he is, was beaten in the Champion Chase when he ran in it and has never won a handicap conceding anything close to those weights. I remember him being beaten by Monets Garden at Aintree in one of the few handicaps he contested.

That is also a fact.

yAB TO CITE kAUTOS DEFEAT BY MONETS GARDEN IS CLUTCHING AT STRAWS.
KAUTO FELL IN THE CHAMPION AS YOU KNOW. HIS PERFORMANCES IN THE TINGLE CREEK WERE UNIQUE AND YOU MUST ACCEPT THAT HE RAN AGAINST BETTER ANIMALS THAN ARKLE

Today was a sad day for racing. We saw the end of Denman. Nicholls has to retire him. Sadly he's not the horse he once was and has never recovered from his heart problem. He's an absolute legend but his best days are behind him.

Not the end of denman, don't speak rubbish. Anyone can see that with different circumstances denman would have hacked up.

So would agree savaloy that he is not very versatile?

^you

he was being pushed along with a lap to go. That's not Denman. He doesn't even jump well anymore.

Maybe its another fib injury that has blighted one of Nicholls stars.

^rib

I'm not arguing that he is versatile tbf

If they keep running him he'll die on the course like Best Mate. He deserves better than that.

"Kauto ran against better animals than Arkle "

Says who ?

Mill house was officially rated a similar horse to Kauto Star and higher than Denman.

kAUTO WOULD BEAT ARKLE IN A tINGLE CREEK AND IN THE kING GEORGE AND PROBABLY IN THE GOLD GUP ON FASTISH GOING

AS I SAID...LETS MOVE ON.....CARL LEWIS WOULD BEAT JESSE OWENS OVER 100M, MICHAEL JOHNSON WOULD BEAT HIM OVER 200M....FACTS....AND USAIN BOLT WOULD BEAT THEM ALL....SO LETS STOP LIVING IN THE PAST

:^0

You obviously never saw Arkle run. These threads are only ever started by people who never saw his performances. He would eat Kauto Star over any track and any distance. So would Flyingbolt.

SEE ABOVE POST AND MOVE ON WITHT THE TIMES....

if they were in the same era there would be no fitness advantage

These sort of debates have to be about abilty only , pointless otherwise, as its like saying Jenson Button was better than Senna because his car goes faster.

Err you started the thread.

ERR WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING??

It has to do with the fact that you are comparing a great horse of today with greats from the past and when anyone disagrees with you your response is "Move with the times".

A poor argument.

Goodnight.

ooh I say! and I will say that todays animals/athletes must be superior to those of the past simply because of modern science...try looking at the times (thats mins/secs) hth
goodnight

looks like old flyingbolt has nodded off :)

Irrelevant point , just means modern science is better than 60s science.

It is about talent only .

define "talent"

So you think someone who can run a mile in 3m 56 secs today and is ranked 354th in the world is a better athlete than Roger Bannister or John Landy ?

Natural Abilty imo

So if you had a Time Machine and got a 3YO Arkle back from the early 60s and trained him with the methods there are today , you'd think he would improve his times .

Or if Denman etc were sent back to the 60s when they'd just started out!

Because horses running faster times today doesn't mean they are better horses , just better trained horses due to more knowledge about diet ,interval methods, swimming or whatever they do with them .

well I know who I would back in a race....the one with the fastest time and therefore the better athlete.....simple really...hth

I hope you don't bet on Athletics. You'd do your brains.

thank you tobe for just endorsing what I was saying (not sure if you wanted to prove that Im right but hey ho :) )

flyingbolt 22 Apr 01:07


I hope you don't bet on Athletics. You'd do your brains.

care to elaborate? I find that those with the fastest times eg Usain Bolt/Tyson Gay usually win :)

Listen, its a fact that, Desert Orchid fans, brilliant though he was, never thought he was comparable with Arkle, its probably the people who are desperate to have the"Best" in their era who will do so.

And btw, versatility, toughness and abiltiy to come back for more regardless of going ,trip or too many races etc, Dessie will be a notch above these two

I find that those with the fastest times don't always win.

ok so Tyson Gay often beats Usain Bolt....you win :)

Are they the only two athletes you are familiar with ?

well you know i wasn't endorsing you ;)

If Denman,Arkle,Kauto had been able to run against each other they would have to have run in the same era , so they would all have had similar training schedules , none of the mwould have been any fitter , and it would come down to abilty only.

Oh dear now you are clearly struggling....ok so Michael Johnson would beat Jesse Owens dth?

same with Owens/Johnson

Johnson's talent was backed by 60 years worth of advances in training routines , particulary weight training, and footwear, clothing for running, advantages he wouldn't have had if he'd been born the same year as Owens , so who knows who would have won.

now tobe you are simply stating the obvious

Usain Bolt is so far in front of his contemporaries he probably is the greatest ever sprinter.

Michael Johnson was likewise miles in front of anyone else in his era. I can't speak for Jesse Owens. Never saw him compete.

What I am saying is that the man with the fastest time does not always win.

Now that is a FACT.

BTW 45 years on Arkle still holds the 3M track record at Sandown.

Fastest times mean nothing. Look at what horses hold the track record at some courses and they are mere handicappers. It's just that on that particular day the race was ran in such a way on quick ground to produce a very quick time. By no way does this mean that it is the best horse.

horses are bred to accentuate specific attributes,so by default the good all rounder will disappear over time

Senna better than Button imo

himself.

I think Senna was the best ever.

YORKYPETE. 21 Apr 23:12


Kauto`s versatlity is unique....Arkle would not have won a Tingle Creek, fact



Given that the tingle creek was first run in the 1970s it would have been uniquely difficult for him to do so

Versatility is key