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23 Dec 22 12:17
Date Joined: 22 Mar 04
| Topic/replies: 10,456 | Blogger: cryoftruth's blog
Hurdles, best jumpers of a hurdle ever I saw were the great Night Nurse and Make a Stand

May have been many better hurdlers than Make A Stand but few better or faster jumpers of a hurdle. He had the Schweppes won by the second hurdle when he carted top weight to win easily. I recall he was still 14/1 AFTER he won like that at Newbury for the champion hurdle. Utter madness!

Best 3 jumpers of fences (apart from Red Rum at Aintree of course 1 mistake in 5 Nationals)

Desert Orchid
Teeton Mill

Pendil was very fast and accurate. In his time he was unbeatable at 2.5 to 3 ,

Dezzy was an amazing jumper, bold and spectacular

Teeton Mill a really economical quick accurate jumper as well. Shame he got injured as he would have won a Gold Cup
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Report Gibberish December 25, 2022 11:40 PM GMT
Wayward Lad & Best Mate were excellent fencers and over 2M Edredon Bleu was a pleasure to watch.
Over hurdles, See You Then & Harchibald were very fluent.
Report Lance in France December 27, 2022 9:56 AM GMT
Remittance Man over fences for me
Report impossible123 January 2, 2023 5:14 PM GMT
Burrough Hill Lad. The horse ran with his head in his chest (literally). A clear round was guaranteed each time.
Report sixtwosix January 3, 2023 10:43 AM GMT
Wayward Lad and Silver Buck were both excellent jumpers , sliding over the fences with little gap between horse and fence......
Report cryoftruth January 5, 2023 7:31 PM GMT
Burrough Hill Lad.

I am not put knocking what impossible said about him as he was generally a tremendous jumper. Really high class too. But I remember one race, may have been the Hennessy which he won with 12 stones. One fence Burrough Hill Lad took a dislike to for some reason and basically demolished it, leaving a comical Burrough Hill Lad shaped hole in it! Of course it made no difference, as he was the original tank, he won well enough anyway!
Report cryoftruth January 5, 2023 7:42 PM GMT

Is a great film of just what a fantastic jumper Burrough Hill Lad was.

And just another fantastic ride by the greatest jump jockey I have seen.
Report impossible123 January 6, 2023 4:55 PM GMT
Anyone remembers Drumadowney? Every time he jumped a fence my heart beat accelerated. His jumping made Might Bite as secure as the Bank of England during Black Friday.
Report sageform January 8, 2023 8:23 AM GMT
I am a bit biased but Collier Bay was pretty special on the day he won the CH. Complete head case over fences though. Voy por Ustedes was spectacular when winning the Arkle as a 5yo.
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl January 8, 2023 3:23 PM GMT
Report impossible123 January 8, 2023 4:47 PM GMT
Crisp? Before my time. And, I'm in my 60's!
Report Saritamer January 8, 2023 7:52 PM GMT
Wayward Lad was consistently the best jumper of a fence at the highest level I have seen but the most spectacular jumper I have seen, when conditions were right (good/fast ground) was Lean Ar Aghaidh trained by Stan Mellor who's performances in the 1987 Whitbread and 1990 Aintree Foxhunters in particular were a joy to watch.
Report nocturnal January 8, 2023 8:51 PM GMT

For Cryoftruth et al.

Some wonderful horses,on unwatered tracks,over proper obstacles.

The two riders Francome looked up to never achieved the same recognition,yet his admiration for them tells plenty.

He speaks as he rode in some ways,Eloquent and direct,with that sense of humour bubbling just under the surface.

Complete horseman,would have stood out in any era,a joy to watch on horseback.
Report cryoftruth January 9, 2023 9:26 AM GMT
Yes I saw that.

A couple of years ago on “The Morning Line” I heard Tony McCoy and Ruby Walsh reflecting on a show humping even for old codger jump jockeys that I think they and Johns Francome had been involved in and there was some footage.

Their admiration for Francome as a horseman was very evident and when you saw Francome’s riding it was very very clear why he was and may always be known as the greatest jockey. He was just a truly great and absolutely natural rider. Always accused as being not so strong in a finish I seem to recall. Whatever the case of that, on a jumper of fences, there has in my view never been a jockey able to judge a horse, set them right at a fence and it’s not a massive accident he fell off so few jumpers and got so few serious injuries. He always said he was lucky. He was so good he made his own luck I reckon.

Interestingly now when you hear the whip debate, a jockey will ask a critic of the whip “how many winners did you ride?” A pretty good answer is “not as many as John Francome and he is against the use of the whip!”
Report cryoftruth January 9, 2023 9:28 AM GMT
That should have been show jumping,

Modern times preclude show humping events broadcast at 9.30am even on Channel 4!
Report PeteTheBloke January 15, 2023 9:05 PM GMT
When I started betting the old timers used to tell me about Arkle and I can still feel their excitement now.
Report cryoftruth January 17, 2023 5:08 PM GMT
I am an old timer. You can believe everything anyone said about Arkle. He was a phenomenon.

I remember watching his first Gold Cup on Grandstand when he beat Mill House. The race had to be moved because of the interest in the clash.

I was a Mill House fan. After all he had won the Hennessy with authority carrying 12 stone 4. Arkle settled the argument.

Just one other unbelievable fact. He was 1/5 on ante post favourite for the Hennessy, for which he was allocated the usual 12 stones 7 lbs. Imagine the most competitive staying chance of the season, with a horse so good nothing receiving 35lbs had any chance at all against Arkle.

Many true stories about him. No story required about the Gallagher Gold Cup.

Watch his jumping in this face and his astonishing sprint finish up the Sandown hill under the ludicrous weight of 12 stones 7 lbs. Of course that broke the course record by just 17 seconds, a record that has never, and is unlikely ever to be beaten, even with a horse carrying 10 stones with a 7 lb claimer on board.

When you list great jumpers, it’s best to leave Arkle out of discussions. There really will never be another like him.
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl January 18, 2023 9:04 PM GMT
He musta been a super star cot but would he have given 35lbs to Flyingbolt or was Flyingbolt a shorter runner ??
Report cryoftruth January 19, 2023 2:48 PM GMT
Flying bolt is just the second bast jump horse ever and the only horse I can think of who would have given Arkle a race. He might even have beaten him over 2 and a half miles,

Flyingbolt’s win in the Massey Ferguson Gold Cup under a staggering 12 stone 6 (won by miles) was incredible. He was immensely talented and I seem to remember he won champion chase by a very long way before almost winning the champion hurdle the day after.

Is just an incredible watch.

Quite like Arkle, Flyingbolt would simply be too good for the handicapper and he carried huge weights to victory a few times.

When you look back now, and I was a big Kauto Star and Denman fan, it’s hard to see how these 2 would have had a chance against Arkle and Flyingbolt.

Timeform reckon Arkle was worth a 212 rating. Kauto Star I think is about 190. Not sure Arkle could have given Kauto 22 lbs, but I do think his form is about a stone better.
Report cryoftruth January 19, 2023 3:02 PM GMT
Timeform have a great piece about Flyingbolt. It really does take you back. I know the great Ted Walsh rates Flyingbolt as highly as Arkle and he is the very opposite of an idiot!

I like the huge Irish gamble landed in that Chetenham bog when he won 15 lengths carrying 12 stones 6 lbs. My they really stuffed the poor bookies that day.

Anyway the bit from Timeform:

1964/65 Season
There was to be no stopping Flyingbolt during his first season over fences and he would win all five starts to extend his streak to 11 races overall. His trainer Tom Dreaper kept him to around two miles with three victories at Leopardstown ahead of a return to the Cheltenham Festival and the Cotswold Chase (now the Arkle Chase). He would land that by five lengths before carrying 12st 2lb to a one-length success in the Easter Handicap Chase at Fairyhouse the following month, conceding 37lb to the runner-up.
Major races won
Cotswold Chase, Cheltenham
Easter Handicap Chase, Fairyhouse

1965/66 Season
Flyingbolt would suffer his first defeat in more than two years when beaten eight lengths in fourth on his comeback in a handicap hurdle at Phoenix Park under 12st 7lb as he attempted to give his rivals 28 lb and upwards. The event was clearly a warm-up ahead of a return to chasing and Flyingbolt would win all six starts over trips ranging from two miles to three and a quarter miles. He started off in the Carey’s Cottage Handicap Chase at Gowran Park followed by the Black & White Whisky Gold Cup Chase at Ascot before a sterner test in the Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup at Cheltenham a week prior to Christmas. His legion of supporters forced his price into 5/2 from 5/1 despite having to carry 12st 6lb and give away at least 25lb to his ten rivals on very heavy ground. Flyingbolt gave them little cause for concern as he impressively drew clear to score by 15 lengths from Solbina and Scottish Memories having taken the lead over the third-last. A form line through the third suggested Flyingbolt was now every bit as good as Arkle and would enhance his reputation yet further in the new year, starting in the Thyestes Chase at Gowran over three miles and a furlong.
He would win that event by a distance under top weight from Height O’Fashion and then showed remarkable versatility to drop back to two miles and hack up by 15 lengths in the Champion Chase at the Cheltenham Festival. Flyingbolt would return to the track just 24 hours later as 15/8 market leader for the Champion Hurdle but his bid for a remarkable double was thwarted when beaten just over three lengths in third place behind Salmon Spray. A mistake at the fourth-last may well have cost him the race and Pat Taaffe later reflected: “We had never trained Flyingbolt over hurdles but I believe he could have been a great hurdler.”
He would return to the larger obstacles once more to round off his campaign in the Irish Grand National at Fairyhouse, and he produced an astounding effort to beat old rival Height O’Fashion and the previous year’s winner Splash by two lengths, giving them 40lb and 42lb respectively. To put the victory into some sort of context, Arkle had beaten Height O’Fashion in the 1964 renewal by one length giving her 30lb. “Flyingbolt made winning look easy that day,” Taaffe said.
Major races won
Black & White Whisky Gold Cup, Ascot
Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup, Cheltenham
Thyestes Chase, Gowran Park
Champion Chase, Cheltenham
Irish Grand National, Fairyhouse
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl January 19, 2023 6:43 PM GMT
Goodness me cryoftruthabsolutely brilliant posts and great reading. Exceptional horses and both in same stable.
Report cryoftruth January 25, 2023 10:35 AM GMT

Is a really interesting watch.

You could easily argue the film of Flyingbolt’s Irish National may be the film of the greatest ever performance by a horse over the jumps.

Giving  a really top mare 40lbs and winning like that is still hard to fathom.
Report sixtwosix January 25, 2023 8:01 PM GMT
When you look back now, and I was a big Kauto Star and Denman fan, it’s hard to see how these 2 would have had a chance against Arkle and Flyingbolt.

Kauto Star and Denman met in 4 Gold Cups as stablemates......Arkle  and Flyingbolt never their records as superlative as they not include taking on the horse most likely to take them to the limit ..... nobody who watched them and tells the story ever seems to mention this.......
Report JayTrumpOldTomDubbl January 27, 2023 9:11 PM GMT
I think illness is the main reason why they never met. The 1967 Gold Cup was meant to be the showdown. Flyingbolt got Brucellosis and never fully recovered apparently. Now that's what I was told long long time ago. But time washes clean and it's hearsay now.
Report cryoftruth January 31, 2023 8:11 PM GMT
Yes he did get that disease and was never the same again.

The only time they could have met in the Gold Cup, Arkle won it at 1/10 or something and Flyingbolt won the 2 mile Champion Chase and was an unlucky 3rd in the Champion Hurdle less than 24 hours later. The next year Flyingbolt was essentially finished.. damned shame.

And of course I was a huge admirer of Denman and of Kauto. Denman’s second Hennessy was heart warming and very high class. And Kauto’s amazing run at Kempton was just that amazing.

And it’s good they met a few times. But that does not make them within a stone of Arkle or Flyingbolt.
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